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Author Topic: Do you consider us like brothers?  (Read 7638 times) Average Rating: 0
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victoriasilvana
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« on: February 03, 2006, 10:46:00 PM »

Hello,
 
   I'm a catholic who once tried to become orthodox but couldn't, due to physical reasons: I'm not Greek nor Russian.
I'm Italian-Spanish and live in Uruguay, here the orthodox communities are tiny and don't seem to feel comfortable with foreigners. There isn't any convert here, believe it or not.
I contacted a Greek priest and he wasn't interested. At least he was kind.
(Maybe someone here knows my story).
Three months have passed and I still can't believe what happened. I still have depression and sometimes I cry.
It's good to see that in other places people can convert more or less easily, without many obstacles from the "native" orthodox. By the way, I saw on this forum that someone asked wether the Roman Church was a racist institution, well, I thought that the Orthodox Church was a xenophobic institution. But don't worry, now I know that's not true.
Anyway, I'd like very much that somebody could answer that question.
Do you call us catholics (sigh...) "brothers" or you call us "heretics", "infidels" etc?
Just try to say yes or no, I don't care about primacy or theological issues.

In my case I say yes. The Orthodox are my brother Christians.
Thank you
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« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2006, 10:58:36 PM »

Do you call us catholics (sigh...) "brothers" or you call us "heretics", "infidels" etc?
Just try to say yes or no, I don't care about primacy or theological issues.

I am a "cradle" Orthodox Christian.
Buddhists are my brothers, Muslims are my brothers, Atheists are my brothers, Protestants are my brothers.....we are all descended from Adam and Eve and share a common blood, so yes, I call Roman and Eastern Catholics my brothers.
A heretic is someone who knowingly believes and teaches something contrary to Orthodox Christian Dogma. So while I consider Roman and Eastern Catholicism to be "heresies", I don't consider most Roman and Eastern Catholics to be "heretics".
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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2006, 11:09:10 PM »

  First I wanted to say that I am sorry that you had such a frustrating experience.  Frankly, I am shocked that an Orthodox Priest would deny a fellow Christian a chance to learn about Orthodoxy and join the One True Church!  How could this happen?!
Anyway,  I also (like my brother George) consider all humans to be my brother.  Jesus Christ mixed with many "unsavory" people....He loves us all.

Juliana Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2006, 01:13:56 AM »

Yes. Strong yes! I completely agree with George and Juliana. Jesus loves us all.
Here in USA all Canonical Orthodox jurisdictions are welcoming converts. In fact, all of them have some convert priests, even those who have very small number of parishes. There are a few Hierarchs in USA, who are converts.
Would you mind if I will make one suggestion? I had an honor to meet His Grace Bishop Jeremiah, the ruling hierarch of Ukrainian Orthodox Diocese of South America — Ecumenical Patriarchate. He is a real servant of God. Bishop Jeremiah is and always has been very pro-mission and he brought many people to Orthodoxy. His diocese has parishes in Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay and Venezuela. He lives in Brazil and often travels. Bishop Jeremiah is fluent in Spanish, English, Portuguese and Ukrainian. I do apologize, if I am making an inappropriate recommendation, but may be you may try to contact him regarding your interest in Orthodoxy.
The link can be found here:
http://www.ecclesia.com.br/eparquia/main.htm
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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2006, 01:28:02 AM »

I'm a catholic who once tried to become orthodox but couldn't, due to physical reasons: I'm not Greek nor Russian.
I'm Italian-Spanish and live in Uruguay, here the orthodox communities are tiny and don't seem to feel comfortable with foreigners. There isn't any convert here, believe it or not.

<suspiro> Señor, ten piedad...  :'(

Hermana (and yes, I feel I can call you that),

The Church finds itself waking up (slowly in many places) to the reality that She is not merely present on earth to preserve the existing, often ethnically-oriented communities that already comprise Her, but that She is present to reach out and accept those who would seek Her out, as well as seek out those who may not know of Her but need Her and Her Lord.  I am truly sorry for the wall that has come up against you within the Church itself, though I would take comfort in the fact that your desire is in the right place--you want to be Orthodox, even though you can't officially be so right now due to others' weaknesses--so perhaps in the eyes of God, you have somehow been united to Him in His Church through economia and mercy.  A possibility there.

Me acordaré de Usted en mis oraciones,

Pedro
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2006, 01:52:39 AM »

To mirror a previous posters response-

   ALL are my brothers and sisters. In Adam, that is. In Christ, not necessarily so. A Buddhist is my brother in Adam but not yet in Christ. A Protestant or Roman Catholic? I am not sure. Great Orthodox saints can be found on both sides of the issue.
   Is following Ruth's example an option for you? When Naomi decided to return to Palestine she was followed by Ruth who said "Let your people be my people and your God my God." Can you emigrate? Go to where Orthodoxy is more prominent?
   
   In Christ,
   Rd. David
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« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2006, 02:09:18 AM »

Unfortunately, this problem does exist. I have had people tell me that they were turned down by Greek priests in the United States because the Balamand agreement said they had to. Whether this was the priest following an agreement that 99% of people think was a mistake, or whether it was just a copout, I don't know. Don't give up following the path that you think God has laid out for you, though.

Regarding brotherhood, I would agree with David H. We are all part of humanity, so we are all family. What's more, we are all made in the image of God, so we are all precious and important. However, in a Christian sense, brotherhood takes on a different meaning since it implies adoption into the family of God. I'm not in a position to say either way regarding the Christian sense, but I do think that the distinction is an important one, and one often forgotten (by some who want to be theological push overs because everyone is a brother, and by others who want to attack people because they are not "true brothers").
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« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2006, 02:17:02 PM »

I'm really sorry about what you are going through.  Hang in there, keep praying and God will help you.   Maybe God is going to open the door for many others because of what you have experienced.  Please don't give up if you want to become Orthodox.

I also want to say that I attend a GOC, and am not Greek. (i live in the USA).    The Priest has been so welcoming from the beginning.  Whenever I bring up in converstion a subject about my not being Greek, and wonder if it'll ever be a problem, he puts it to rest.  I find he is so open and welcoming, that I wonder why I ever doubted.  Did the Priest from the GOC (you spoke with) give you reasons, specific ones?

And, I think of you as a brother, RCC, or whatever denomination.

I will pray for you, don't give up!
Irene       
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2006, 02:51:01 PM »

In our most famous prayer to the Holy Spirit we say,

'Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth, Who are everywhere present and
filling all things'

God is everywhere, filling all and in all, including in Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism as well as other creeds and beliefs. Hatred of one's neighbour, be they Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or Buddhist is inconsonent with Orthodox Teachings, so of course we consider you our Brother. Hopefully one day the devistating and tragic schism between our two Churches will be healed and such petty arguments and distinctions and polemics between the Eastern and Western Churches will be overcome, and we will become one administratively, reflecting the spiritual unity of all Christians.
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victoriasilvana
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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2006, 10:41:01 PM »

Thanks to you all, people.
Of course I know we are all sons of God and that makes us brothers.
I asked that because, you know what? While Christians are disputing, muslims are winning. Shias and sunnis are always at war, but in situations like the current one, they are all united, they are all brothers and all of them enter the same mosques. It made me think. Shame on us indeed!

About your question Irene: no, no reasons at all. Here's my brief story.
I asked the Patriarchate via email if a non-Greek could join the Church. They sent me the priest's adress and phone number.
One day I called him and he did nothing but repeating "oh yes, yes, whenever you want you call me, then we choose a day and I'll say a few words and you will be orthodox".
I was immensely happy, but soon realized that he said nothing about baptizing, so the next day I called him again to ask about that. He said there was no problem and again he repeated the same words "you call me when you want, you come to the church and we will talk, etc". He was very gentle.
I asked if I could go the next sunday (it was tuesday). He said yes.
That sunday I went to the church to meet him after the mass. We shook hands and he... said in a hurry "yes, yes, whenever you want, you call me and then you come and we will talk".
I was saddened and breathless, but asked him this question: Do you think that I'm not sure or not prepared for my choice?
He nodded rapidly and repeated... again... " You call me (...)"
And he stood there in silence, with a little smile. Kinda impatient. I shook his hand smiling back and said thanks. The meeting lasted more or less 1 minute.
At home my mom told me that he was just being polite. Get that?

To Starlight: Thank you very much for your recommendation, but I don't know. I had chosen the Greek Church because I thought there was a strong relationship between the roman ancestry and the Greek cultural heritage. And well, I felt like an extraterrestrial. If this happened with a cultural relative, what would happen with a Slav? I'm afraid of that! His Grace may be a good Christian who sees beyond ethnicity, but when you experince discrimination you feel wounded and you don't want to take chances anymore. 
And not only wounded, you also feel ridiculous. Some relatives told me that I shouldn't go around looking for "weird things". Sorry 'bout that. (that's what you got when you live in a diluted catholic/lay society like mine!  Embarrassed ).
DavidH, this is however my beloved country, although yes I have thought about migrating.
Bye! Gracias querido Pedro por sus palabras. Thanks to you all folks!


P.S. Maybe the Orthodox should proselytize.
   
           Now that would be a miracle!
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2006, 04:13:48 PM »

Victoria,

I'm not sure what to make of your experience, but given that it wasn't a satisfactory one, I think I have to say it's an unfortunate one.

As for the supposed cultural kinship between Roman Catholicism and Greek Orthodoxy as opposed to some other Orthodox Church... I think you're mistaken.  A lot of water has gone under the bridge since the two were in any way "culturally" similar (in fact that ended well before the "great schism" of 1054.)  Instead of concentrating on something like this, you'd be better simply finding an Orthodox Church where you'll be able to be received properly and become "just another parishoner".  I don't know exactly where you are, but I doubt the Greeks are the only option.

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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2006, 06:22:51 PM »

This experience reminds me of something I was meaning to ask. I was talking to an Anglican priest who converted from Baptist several years ago. He said he considered Orthodoxy and RC as well. When he talked to Orthodox priests about converting, they told him that, as a Baptist pastor, he needed to start by reconciling with his bishop. He was confused, because Baptists don't have bishops, but they explained that they meant the Bishop of Rome--that he needed to reconcile first with the Pope, then they could work together toward reconciliation with the East. This sounds weird to me. I mean, I can see in some ideal sense that this should be the path to healing the West--but I'd never heard before of Orthodox giving this kind of reply to someone's personal interest in converting.

Is it possible that they misunderstood what he was asking for? Or that he misunderstood what they were addressing with their answer? Or does this actually sound like something they might really have said and meant?

Trevor
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2006, 06:44:23 PM »

Quote
Or does this actually sound like something they might really have said and meant?

It's very possible. And unfortunate. It is what happens when the type of ecumenism that GIC spit out above is actually believed and applied in the real world. People respond badly to ecumenism, and the defenders of ecumenism say "Oh, come on, it's not as bad as all that!" Sometimes, it really is as bad as traditionalists say. And it is sincere seekers, looking to follow the will of God, who are the ones getting hurt.
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2006, 07:52:04 PM »

I've been thinking about this a lot today, and if it happened for the wrong reasons, then I am so sorry.

But, is there a possibility the priest didn't quite understand?  I've never heard of a situation where you meet, and then become Orthodox.   You meet, study, attend services, etc....and when the time is right, you become Orthodox.   Could it be he didn't understand?  Is his english good?
Also, it sounds like it was a hectic time to talk.   I just say, hi, how are you, etc...and move on very quickly when there are people about the priest.  He just doesn't have the time to talk too long to one person, because the line would be held up.     If I need time with the priest, I either email, or call, and we meet one on one.

Well, those are my thoughts anyway.  ie:  Did he understand exactly what you meant, and did he have the proper opportunity to really respond?

Irene (praying for a happy resolution for you)
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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2006, 09:46:59 PM »

Don't give up with a name like Yours!  There are some clergy whose behaviior is somewhat cranky. One priest told potential converts to stay in their own church and even redirect Orthodox to local churchs, when he couldn't serve liturgy in that town.  We are all brethren so it doesn't matter what you believe. Cheesy
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« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2006, 09:59:44 PM »

This experience reminds me of something I was meaning to ask. I was talking to an Anglican priest who converted from Baptist several years ago. He said he considered Orthodoxy and RC as well. When he talked to Orthodox priests about converting, they told him that, as a Baptist pastor, he needed to start by reconciling with his bishop. He was confused, because Baptists don't have bishops, but they explained that they meant the Bishop of Rome--that he needed to reconcile first with the Pope, then they could work together toward reconciliation with the East. This sounds weird to me. I mean, I can see in some ideal sense that this should be the path to healing the West--but I'd never heard before of Orthodox giving this kind of reply to someone's personal interest in converting.

Is it possible that they misunderstood what he was asking for? Or that he misunderstood what they were addressing with their answer? Or does this actually sound like something they might really have said and meant?

I would presume that, generally speaking, such an answer would only be given if he wanted to be received in holy orders. To receive a protestant as a priest we would, generally speaking, expect them to reconcile with Rome, thus validating their ordination. To be received as a layman, this probably wouldn't be expected.
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« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2006, 10:15:11 PM »

Or if the response is, 'why in the world would you want to become Orthodox?' (people have received that response).

If someone is earnestly following their heart, and they finally get up the courage to inquire,.... and aren't felt very welcomed, well, i just wonder how many gave up.....thankfully, there are many more priests out there who are welcoming to the ones who aren't. 
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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2006, 12:42:49 AM »

I would presume that, generally speaking, such an answer would only be given if he wanted to be received in holy orders. To receive a protestant as a priest we would, generally speaking, expect them to reconcile with Rome, thus validating their ordination. To be received as a layman, this probably wouldn't be expected.

But this really makes no sense whatsoever.  It is about theology, belief and praxis.  Belief:  Do they really want to become Orthdox because they believe it to be true?  Theology:  do they know or have they adequately studied Orthodox theology?  Praxis:  do they know about Orthodox life and how to function as an Orthodox priest?  If they were never Roman Catholic, then there is nothing to reconcile with them.  I've been to RC services about a half dozen times in my life, as I was never Roman Catholic.  I was Chrismated by His Beatitude Met. Phillip when I was 12 and it will be 20 years now next year.  Just because I'm a white American of western European descent doesn't mean I have anything to do with Rome.  Did YOU 'reconcile with Rome' when/before you converted?
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« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2006, 12:53:49 AM »

If you can somehow become Orthodox, I would say do it.

Remember you are not Orthodox for the Priest or the people at the Church. You are Orthodox for the Lord Jesus Christ. So try and look past all the human failings, and follow God by any and all means.

As far Catholics being my brothers. I don't know how I feel yet exactly about the issue. Sorry.
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« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2006, 12:56:32 AM »

Quote
If they were never Roman Catholic, then there is nothing to reconcile with them.

Not knowing the original situation it is hard to commnet, but here is a possible spin...

I've come a few Orthodox that are converts from Evangical Protestantism that are rabidly anti-Catholic in the style of Protestantism.  They still talk about them Papists worshiping Mary, statues and those rosary beads.  They are very nervous about the concept of monasticism, even the concept of obedience and an hierarchy makes them uneasy.  Essentially they are still protestants that decorate their house with icons now... Maybe this is what was being spoken of - to overcome first this deep hatred of Rome and Catholic things.  At the end of the day Catholicism isn't that far from Orthodoxy in many ways, so I question the sincerity of former Protestants that deeply hate Catholicism for its Catholicness yet are converts to Orthodoxy.  

Most likely not the case, but I thought I'd throw it out there.    
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« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2006, 02:20:38 AM »

Victoria,
I understand your concerns.
Regarding the baptism. Orthodox Church does not re-baptize Roman Catholics. But for the conversion some time is needed anyway. Indeed, that priest mentioned to you continuation of communication.
I have great opinion about Greeks. I visited many Greek churches. Actually I used to belong to Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain during my temporary residence in UK. The reason, why I recommended Bishop Jeremiah — he knows the situation and will be able to provide clear suggestion.
If you would feel more comfortable, may be you can contact His Eminence Metropolitan Tarasios, the ruling hierarch of Greek Orthodox Diocese of Buenos Aires and South America.
http://www.ecclesia.com.br/a_igreja_ortodoxa/arquid_grega/main.htm
While I had only an opportunity to talk to him very briefly (which created a great impression anyway), I heard excellent things about him from others. Before he used to be the Chief Archdeacon of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. He really enjoyed helping in various matters Orthodox clergy, both Greek and non-Greek, who were visiting Turkey. Also, I observed myself his interactions with others and I could see how nice, warm and welcoming he was to everyone.
You would not have any language issues with Metropolitan Tarasios. As I have been informed, he speaks at least English, Greek, Spanish and Turkish.
As some others said here, please do not give up. Please! Both these hierarchs look beyond ethnic borders. Please look at the list of the clergy of both Greek and Ukrainian dioceses at that web site. You will see how many last names are not from “usually” Orthodox ethnicities. I hope this will be encouraging.
May God help you!
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« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2006, 10:27:49 AM »

But this really makes no sense whatsoever.  It is about theology, belief and praxis.  Belief:  Do they really want to become Orthdox because they believe it to be true?  Theology:  do they know or have they adequately studied Orthodox theology?  Praxis:  do they know about Orthodox life and how to function as an Orthodox priest?  If they were never Roman Catholic, then there is nothing to reconcile with them.  I've been to RC services about a half dozen times in my life, as I was never Roman Catholic.  I was Chrismated by His Beatitude Met. Phillip when I was 12 and it will be 20 years now next year.  Just because I'm a white American of western European descent doesn't mean I have anything to do with Rome.  Did YOU 'reconcile with Rome' when/before you converted?

For all intensive purposes we are one Church with our Catholic Brethren, there has simply been an unfortunate squable with their hierarchy that will hopefully be soon resolved. Perhaps we should take this into mind and at least not accept converts from Roman Catholicism, out of resect for our similarities and for their posistion as the Canonical Western Church.
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« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2006, 01:34:26 PM »

That's quite something to say. 
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« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2006, 05:09:32 PM »

it does hit me as odd sometimes, that the rc and the orthodox are reciting the same line each week...belief in the catholic church, during the creed.   i wonder what God thinks.  isn't this what he dislikes?  saying one thing, doing the other?
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« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2006, 06:06:59 PM »

For all intensive purposes we are one Church with our Catholic Brethren, there has simply been an unfortunate squable with their hierarchy that will hopefully be soon resolved. Perhaps we should take this into mind and at least not accept converts from Roman Catholicism, out of resect for our similarities and for their posistion as the Canonical Western Church.

That would be difficult, given that they are not the canonical western church. Such nonsense demonstrates a pitiable lack of understanding of Orthodox ecclesiology. Its good that, at least from my experience, this dangerously ecumenistic mindset is dying in the church and a commitment to genuine missionary ecumenism is gaining hold. Even Father Schmemann, I would venture to guess, would find this position extreme and, in fact, heretical.

...and just to nitpick a little, the phrase is "for all intents and purposes."
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« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2006, 06:09:58 PM »

For a good and thoroughly Orthodox (unlike that of greekischristian) understanding of the relationship between Rome and Orthodoxy, I would suggest Rev. Father Thomas Hopko's article on the matter: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/HopkoPope.php
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« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2006, 07:41:17 PM »

Thanks again, people. The situation is quite difficult here for the lack of  opportunities, so it's ok, because in the end it doesn't matter. Christ is waiting for all, we will reunite with him anyway. One should not complaint for some earthly inconvenients.   

Anyway: you're so lucky!!!!

P.S. Augustine, my God... when I was talking about Romans and Greeks I meant the common people themselves! My Roman ancestors: men, women, you know, centurions, gladiators, peasants, etc. I wasn't talking about the Churches! Romans brought the Hellenic culture throughout their empire, that's why I thought we shared a common history.

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« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2006, 08:33:52 PM »

For all intensive purposes we are one Church with our Catholic Brethren, there has simply been an unfortunate squable with their hierarchy that will hopefully be soon resolved. Perhaps we should take this into mind and at least not accept converts from Roman Catholicism, out of resect for our similarities and for their posistion as the Canonical Western Church.


Good thing my Priest didn't think like you, myself coming out of the Catholic Church. He even "re"-baptised me! *scary music playing*
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« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2006, 12:24:04 PM »

For all intensive purposes...

I believe you mean "intents and purposes."
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« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2006, 03:19:43 PM »

Perhaps we should take this into mind and at least not accept converts from Roman Catholicism, out of resect for our similarities and for their posistion as the Canonical Western Church.

 Huh
You would keep those who by grace desire to live in the fullness of the Christian faith? That faith, with its practices, which is the living out of that which is scriptural and in line with Holy Tradition. Do you know what burden you would place on us? I don't even think it is one Christ Himself would place on our shoulders. 

You would keep us bound to that man made liturgy of 1970 and burden us with an ecclesiology that is clearly heterodox? If so, you would bind us to practices that lead us not to Christ but to relativism, indifference and egoism. There are not enough similarities to even entertain for one minute what you propose.

What you propose is nothing short of denying life giving water to the spiritually dead. I know, because I was there.

Regards,
Douglas
(Convert to Holy Orthodoxy)   
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« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2006, 06:48:55 PM »

That would be difficult, given that they are not the canonical western church. Such nonsense demonstrates a pitiable lack of understanding of Orthodox ecclesiology. Its good that, at least from my experience, this dangerously ecumenistic mindset is dying in the church and a commitment to genuine missionary ecumenism is gaining hold. Even Father Schmemann, I would venture to guess, would find this position extreme and, in fact, heretical.

But they are the Canonical Western Church, they have that right Established  by the Oecumenical Synods, a right and authority that can only be revoked by a subsequent Oecumenical Synod, not by any Patriarchal or Endimousa Synod. The fact of the matter is, until the 8th Oecumenical Synod is Summoned, and Rome Anathematized, which I dont see happening in the near future, they are the Legitimate and Canonical Western Church.
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« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2006, 06:52:28 PM »

You would keep us bound to that man made liturgy of 1970

All liturgies are man made if you go back far enough. And the Novus Ordo Mass was hardly made from scratch in the 70's.

Quote
and burden us with an ecclesiology that is clearly heterodox?

A minor administrative squabble that is for the bishops to work out on their own time.
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« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2006, 07:18:58 PM »

GiC.  YOU ARE NOT GREEK.  YOU ARE A CONVERT TO ORTHODOXY.  PLEASE FOLLOW YOUR OWN ADVICE AND RECONCILLE WITH THE ROMAN CHURCH.
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« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2006, 07:22:17 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8125.msg106495#msg106495 date=1139354338]
GiC.  YOU ARE NOT GREEK.  YOU ARE A CONVERT TO ORTHODOXY.  PLEASE FOLLOW YOUR OWN ADVICE AND RECONCILLE WITH THE ROMAN CHURCH.
[/quote]

GiC is Orthodox? I would have never guessed by his posts...  Tongue
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« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2006, 07:43:40 PM »

All liturgies are man made if you go back far enough. And the Novus Ordo Mass was hardly made from scratch in the 70's.

A minor administrative squabble that is for the bishops to work out on their own time.


You know quite well what is meant by "man made". The Novus Ordo Missae, instituted on the first Sunday of Advent in 1970 and forced down the throat of gullible catholics, was put together by a committee headed the notorious Cardinal Bugnini (a Mason) and a group of liturgical revisionists which included six protestants. Bugnini himself admitted that the NO was put together to make Roman Catholicism palatable to the protestants.

Dr. Smith, one of the Lutheran representatives at this commission, later publicly boasted, “We have finished the work that Martin Luther began.” And Fr. Bugnini stated that his aim in designing the New Mass was “to strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren, that is, for the Protestants.”

If you can in any way favorably compare the Novus Ordo Missae to the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chyrsosotom then I am surprised you are Orthodox. After all, who would want to stand for the good part of two hours when you can get the cheap grace 20 minute special? Wink

 
In a spirit of charity, I will not respond to your second comment.

Regards.


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« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2006, 08:03:56 PM »

All liturgies are man made if you go back far enough. And the Novus Ordo Mass was hardly made from scratch in the 70's.

Justin, one of the first apologists of the Christian faith, himself born shortly after the Apostles, gives an account of his faith and of the practice of the Christians of his time. He describes in detail the celebration of the Eucharist as it was conducted, and claims that these details are what the Lord Himself ordered His disciples to follow.

The account of the Liturgy described by Justin witnesses to the details of the Sacred Supper of the Lord and harmonizes with the details of the Breaking of the Bread by the Apostles. It is this same Liturgy of the first Christians that Clement of Rome describes and which the Church kept faithfully and transmitted in all its integrity. It is from this Liturgy that the Byzantine Liturgy derives and has its origin.

The same cannot be said of the Novus Ordo Missae. The sentiment expressed above is one of the key pieces that drew me to Orthodoxy. The point is to set the captives free, not keep them bound as you would do.
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« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2006, 08:15:17 PM »

Quote
After all, who would want to stand for the good part of two hours...

I am assuming you are referring to a hierarchal Divine Liturgy, or perhaps are including the Matins service onto the DL?

In my experience the DL (by itself) lasts about an hour and twenty minutes, give or take.

Quote
...when you can get the cheap grace 20 minute special?

A 20 minute Mass? One can only assume you are referring to daily Masses, where portions of the Mass are "edited" out. I don't see how a 20 minute Mass would fly on a Saturday evening or Sunday Mass...
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« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2006, 08:33:57 PM »

I am assuming you are referring to a hierarchal Divine Liturgy, or perhaps are including the Matins service onto the DL?

In my experience the DL (by itself) lasts about an hour and twenty minutes, give or take.

A 20 minute Mass? One can only assume you are referring to daily Masses, where portions of the Mass are "edited" out. I don't see how a 20 minute Mass would fly on a Saturday evening or Sunday Mass...


MY weekly DL averages 1 hour 45...but who's nitpicking?

Sadly, I have witnessed too many blue jean saturday night specials. Don't want to keep them waiting! My aunt a so-called "extraordinary minister of the eucharist" or whatever they are called now dosen't understand how only one person (the priest) can distribute the Eucharist at DL. She proudly tells me that the priest and 4 others distribute the Eucharist at her catholic church. Why? Because "we can't have people waithing around just to receive communion". Shocked

And yes, editing out and week to week novelties are epidemic.

This is what the prior poster would have those Catholics who seek out Orthodoxy bound to?
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« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2006, 08:37:53 PM »

Why? Because "we can't have people waithing around just to receive communion". Shocked

We had a solution to that at one point, large numbers of bishops, priests, and deakons serving the eucharist...unfortunately most our parishes are stuck with only a priest or two to serve the eucharist, but the goa has been considering a solution, ordaining influential members of the community to the permanente deaconate, essentially allowing them to serve as eucharistic ministers.
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« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2006, 08:48:03 PM »

Epidemic?

I suppose it depends on where you're located, but to be sure there are priests around who offer a dignified Mass.

Insofar as the casual dress is concerned, I've witnessed this at a few Orthodox churches I've been to, but what can ya do?

Sure, people could take the extra time to dress up for church, but I guess it's good that they even bother to show up for church at all.

Now, in regards to the EEM's; I agree that having a squad of them when the amount of communicants do not call for it - no doubt! Bu when it comes down to a liturgy where there are several hundred communicants, no deacons to distribute the Gifts and just one priest...  Huh
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« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2006, 08:57:54 PM »

We had a solution to that at one point, large numbers of bishops, priests, and deakons serving the eucharist...unfortunately most our parishes are stuck with only a priest or two to serve the eucharist, but the goa has been considering a solution, ordaining influential members of the community to the permanente deaconate, essentially allowing them to serve as eucharistic ministers.

God forbid we're late for brunch.
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« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2006, 09:00:19 PM »

For all intensive purposes we are one Church with our Catholic Brethren, there has simply been an unfortunate squable with their hierarchy that will hopefully be soon resolved. Perhaps we should take this into mind and at least not accept converts from Roman Catholicism, out of resect for our similarities and for their posistion as the Canonical Western Church.

Instead of our meandering into all these side discussions I really would like to know:

Do you really believe that?HuhHuh
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« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2006, 09:03:22 PM »

Epidemic?

I suppose it depends on where you're located, but to be sure there are priests around who offer a dignified Mass.


Of course. That's why I said epidemic and not pandemic. Wink
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« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2006, 09:05:16 PM »

Instead of our meandering into all these side discussions I really would like to know:

Do you really believe that?HuhHuh

I dont know what I believe any more, but what does it matter? I said it didn't I?
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« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2006, 09:18:05 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8125.msg106495#msg106495 date=1139354338]
GiC.  YOU ARE NOT GREEK.  YOU ARE A CONVERT TO ORTHODOXY.  PLEASE FOLLOW YOUR OWN ADVICE AND RECONCILLE WITH THE ROMAN CHURCH.
[/quote]

Charity at its finest.
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