Washington State & Homosexuality

[DavidH]

No, you eat because you decide to placate your passion for food at that moment.  Hunger is a passion - and not a bad one for survival.  It is possible for you to control that passion, though.  Do not blur the line between physiological stirrings and the conscious act of trying to placate those stirrings; hunger is the stirring, eating is the conscious and willful act of placating the stirring.

   Good point!......... I also liked ozgeorge's point about the passions as morally neutral in and of themselves. It is a point I am aware of but sometimes forget in the heat of argumentation.

In Christ,
Rd. David

[Fr. George]

   Good point!......... I also liked ozgeorge's point about the passions as morally neutral in and of themselves. It is a point I am aware of but sometimes forget in the heat of argumentation. 

It's okay.  Ozgeorge was right on the money with the comment about moral neutrality - it is only when we act on the passions (sins of action) or dwell on the passions in our heads (sins of thought) do they cease to be neutral; the hunger example is a perfect one for this.  Hunger is not sinful; eating too much because "I'm still hungry" is sin, or thinking about how good a steak will tase - for 15 minutes - during Liturgy because "I'm hungry" doesn't cut it - there I've crossed the line!

I think all of this is definitely applicable to homosexual attraction and action.  Just as with other sins, the fact that one may be attracted to the same sex in and of itself is not sinful; if that person fantasizes about having sex with another person, or if they do have sex outside of marriage, then they themselves have made it sinful. 

[ozgeorge]

I eat because my body tells me that I am hungry.

Firstly, what do you do on days of strict fasting? Do you make a choice about your action or simply eat because you are "compelled" to by this biological urge? Secondly, hunger is a passion common to all, homosexuality is a passion common only to some- like alcoholism. Should an alcoholic also act on their urges to drink?

Is it possible that a homosexual seeks members of the same sex because his physical and psychological nature tell him to?

I fail to see what this has to do with anything. An alcoholic has the urge to drink in their " physical and psychological nature" also- that doesn't make drinking a good option for them does it?

[Matthew777]

My family would attend St. Aloysius Church in Spokane, Washington while Fr. Chris Weekly was a resident priest. Something we'd usually notice was that Fr. Weekly was a little off, perhaps a little too effeminite to belong in the priesthood. It wouldn't be right to accuse him directly of being gay but my family was rather suspicious. When the priest scandal first broke out, he even gave a homily discussing that he had been accused himself. My mother and I were just talking about him a few minutes ago, wondering where he had gone in the past few years. It turns out, he is now a priest in the Seattle area. I decided to search his name on the internet and this is what I found:

http://www.gbgm-umc.org/ravenna/draftlist.html
This is a list of "gay-friendly" religious groups in the Seattle area.

"St. Joseph Catholic Church
 
732 18th Avenue East
Seattle, WA 98112
206-324-2522
Spiritual Contacts: Chris Weekly, S.J. and Lee Kapfer, S.J.
E-mail: mfulton@stjosephsea.org
Website: http://www.stjosephparish.org"
http://www.gbgm-umc.org/ravenna/draftlist.html

Not only that but Don Mackenzie, the now "parish administrator" of St. Paschal's Church in Spokane is also listed, but as his former job:

"University Congregational (ONA)
 ÃƒÆ’‚Â
4515 16th Avenue NE
Seattle WA 98105
206-524-2322
Spiritual Contacts: Don Mackenzie, Catherine Foote,
Peter Ilgenfritz, David Shull
E-mail: office@universityucc.org
Website: http://www.universityucc.org"
http://www.gbgm-umc.org/ravenna/draftlist.html

This isn't surprising because I knew that he was a Protestant before being chosen by Bishop Skylstad to effectively fulfill the role of a parish priest as a lay man, to the tune of $60,000 a year.
On a related note, Skylstad was elected president of the U.S. Council of Catholic Bishops despite his involvement in the coverup of pedophilic priests.

I don't mean to make offense by sharing this and I'm sorry if I have.

Peace.

[montalban]

I recall on another forum someone claiming that the church has always accepted homosexuals...

see http://www.forministry.com/USPALCCINSCCSC/GayMarriage.dsp

They have a 'modern' icon of two saints, done even in pink. It's always sad that some 'churches' try to push non-Christian agendas.

By the way when I contacted this site and pointed out the many mistakes on it the 'priest' in this went nuts and claimed that I'd hacked into this web-site! Despite it being available to the public; it showed to me the state of mind he was in.

[Matthew777]

I'm not anti-gay but I do feel that the priest, as father over the Church, should be normal in his sexuality in order to relate with the congregation.

[montalban]

How does a 'normal' (heterosexually orientated) priest relate to gay members of the congregation?

[Matthew777]

How does a 'normal' (heterosexually orientated) priest relate to gay members of the congregation?

If we are to take the Scripture's word for it, gay members of the congregation are to repent of their homosexuality. We don't need sex and some people are called to lives of celibacy.

[montalban]

It seems that 'gay' sex is deemed 'normal' and abstinence 'abnormal'.

I take it some statistics or proofs are forthcoming to show that gays are 'normal' and celibate people 'abnormal'.

[montalban]

I can just imagine someone who practices bestiality saying to an celibate priest "You can't relate to me, because YOU'RE abnormal!"

 

[Matthew777]

I believe you may have it backwards. One can live a life of holiness in celibacy but not in homosexuality.

[montalban]

One can be celibate, and homosexual!  

[Matthew777]

One can be celibate, and homosexual! ÂÂ

I don't think so, it's a condition defined by what you do more than who you are.

[montalban]

Orthodox see a difference between what one does and what one is. For God, we call God the 'creator' , but know that His 'Divine Energies' are different from His being.

[montalban]

One can be feeling desires towards other men, without acting upon those desires.

[CRCulver]

They have a 'modern' icon of two saints, done even in pink. It's always sad that some 'churches' try to push non-Christian agendas.

That's one of Robert Lentz's icons. The good news is that he has repented, returned to obedience to the Roman Catholic Church, and no longer allows these icons to be sold by his former main distributor.

[Matthew777]

One can be feeling desires towards other men, without acting upon those desires.

A church would not be friendly to gay people in not giving them a chance to overcome those desires.

[Matthew777]

I know that every church has its problems but in Orthodoxy, we are better able to avoid having sexually abnormal men in the priesthood by allowing a married clergy.

[Zoe]

I don't honestly believe having a priest who is battling homosexual tendencies would inhibit that priest from adequately relating to his congregation.  That's like saying a priest who battles with ego or anger or some other passion is incapable of relating to someone else.

[choirfiend]

That's one of Robert Lentz's icons. The good news is that he has repented, returned to obedience to the Roman Catholic Church, and no longer allows these icons to be sold by his former main distributor.

Really? Then why the heck does he include all those horrible "non-icons" on his site, like gandhi, and einstein, and a billion others. His work is demonic.

[Michael]

I don't think so, it's a condition defined by what you do more than who you are.

I'd strongly but respectfully disagree with this.  Homosexuality is not a thing that a person does.  Sex with people of the same sex is something that a person does (or does not do, as the case may be).  There are many people who are homosexual (i.e. they are emotionally and physically attracted solely to members of the same sex as themseloves), who are faithful, celibate people.  They struggle with temptation, as indeed do all of the faithful, but strive to live up to the ideal to which we are all called in Christ.

Many people are tempted by gluttony, many by gossip, many by taking what is not theirs, many by sexual activity with people of the same sex, many by sexual activity with people of the opposite sex to whom they are not married - yet they do their best to resist these temptations, and many of these people who struggle with these temptations are priests.  I must agree with Zoe in that I don't see why any one of these temptations should be singled out from all the others as a reson for why a priest could not relate to his flock.  There may well be a connection but it's one that I'm having a lot of difficulty seeing without further clarification.

[czzham]

I personally know several Orthodox who live in a continual state of repentance for their "gay" (homosexual) tendencies. I also personally do not know any Orthodox Priests who deal personally with that issue. If there are such, perhaps it is because of jurisdictional rulings that decree priests to be married: if a person who feels "called" to the priesthood "must" have a wife, perhaps there are lesbians who currently fill that role...!!! In the (pseudo-Protestant) Appalachian background I come from, formal marriage between a gay and a lesbian was frequent, to prevent persecution by the usually non-acceptive "public". They would then continue with their usual practice(s)...

My (limited) knowledge of Orthodox Saints includes several Monastics who were "homo". Their abstinence has become legendary, serving as role models for other sexually challenged individuals on their (respective) paths to Deification.

Isn't it unfortunate that this subject must currently be given so much "sensitive" consideration? "Let no mention of these abominations be among you"...  

[montalban]

I'd strongly but respectfully disagree with this.  Homosexuality is not a thing that a person does.  Sex with people of the same sex is something that a person does (or does not do, as the case may be).  There are many people who are homosexual (i.e. they are emotionally and physically attracted solely to members of the same sex as themseloves), who are faithful, celibate people.  They struggle with temptation, as indeed do all of the faithful, but strive to live up to the ideal to which we are all called in Christ.

Many people are tempted by gluttony, many by gossip, many by taking what is not theirs, many by sexual activity with people of the same sex, many by sexual activity with people of the opposite sex to whom they are not married - yet they do their best to resist these temptations, and many of these people who struggle with these temptations are priests.  I must agree with Zoe in that I don't see why any one of these temptations should be singled out from all the others as a reson for why a priest could not relate to his flock.  There may well be a connection but it's one that I'm having a lot of difficulty seeing without further clarification.

On that note, there are men who have sex with men who are not homosexual, either, such as those in prison (and sailors used to! )

The 'condition' of being homosexual doesn't necessarily lead to homosexual acts, just as men and women can be heterosexual and wait until marriage (or forever).

I too agree with Zoe!

[montalban]

I personally know several Orthodox who live in a continual state of repentance for their "gay" (homosexual) tendencies. I also personally do not know any Orthodox Priests who deal personally with that issue. If there are such, perhaps it is because of jurisdictional rulings that decree priests to be married: if a person who feels "called" to the priesthood "must" have a wife, perhaps there are lesbians who currently fill that role...!!! In the (pseudo-Protestant) Appalachian background I come from, formal marriage between a gay and a lesbian was frequent, to prevent persecution by the usually non-acceptive "public". They would then continue with their usual practice(s)...

My (limited) knowledge of Orthodox Saints includes several Monastics who were "homo". Their abstinence has become legendary, serving as role models for other sexually challenged individuals on their (respective) paths to Deification.

Isn't it unfortunate that this subject must currently be given so much "sensitive" consideration? "Let no mention of these abominations be among you"... ÂÂ

marriages of that kind are also the stuff of Hollywood, not just in the backwoods

[czzham]

... as far as waiting goes, I have been, and for "ages upon ages". I know where God has bonded me, and I wait until it is complete in both of us. His Trinitarian Will be done, indeed... Sorry, I don't want to seem sanctimonious.

Back to the "issue" at hand: I must be like really REALLY old or something, I just fail to "git" the urge to be in continual comm with talk all the time, like y'all are now. My generation, we keep more to ourselves, don't talk too much, hate cellies, don't do much IM, etc. The whole "gay" thang, us "old ones" know this thing from way back, don't have to discuss it much, even though it's news to some now. The position of the Church has (presumably) been the same forever, why the need for talk unless there's room for policy change? Orthodox Policy Change? Not...!!! I guess I just don't get the need for all this e-talk, what's the point? So you know how each other "feel"... will you (in this reality) ever be in the same room together? I just don't get the need for constant "communication", or whatever it is.

No offense intended, I've actually learned a little from these threads, just... I just don't really "get it".

[czzham]

Sorry about the smileys, they juas seem to pop up, I don't intentionally do them. I'll try to fixxitt.
Peace!
guitarmonk.

[Fr. George]

hey there guitarmonk,

thanks for the bit of wisdom on the subject.  I think the benefit of talking this out is that it helps to open some people up to different aspects that they aren't used to hearing or thinking about... in the end, if this talking makes better Christians of those involved, then Glory to God.

And don't worry about the smileys... consider them your back-up singers or something... Guitarmonk and the smiley seven.

[CRCulver]

Really? Then why the heck does he include all those horrible "non-icons" on his site, like gandhi, and einstein, and a billion others. His work is demonic.

Did you read what I wrote? He painted these, but recently repented, went back to the RC Church, and has stopped.

[choirfiend]

I'm asking why he still sells them. Because he does, to seemingly no end.

Even his work that is of normal subject matter fails to fit icon standards and is creepy to no end.

If he has repented and gone back, why would he keep selling his demonic work and the work of those who fell under his tutledge?

I read what you wrote, re: one icon. I'm asking why ANY of his garbage is still for sale.

[choirfiend]

If he is selling this with the blessing of the RCC, that really speaks to the character of the RCC, honestly. What vile things these are, masquerading as icons.

[Michael]

Lord, preserve us!

I'm really not sure I needed to see those.

[Anastasios]

My fave is Cesar Chavez. Now that is one way to strike a pose!

[Νεκτάριος]

I love how it's in Greek, too.  Spanish makes sense, or even English - but Greek?

[FrChris]

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8458.msg111916#msg111916 date=1142545790]
I love how it's in Greek, too.  Spanish makes sense, or even English - but Greek?
[/quote]

of course it's in Greek, παιδι μου!

How else would God understand who the 'icon' is if you don't speak  the language He uses in Heaven!?  

[Νεκτάριος]

I thought they spoke Ebonics in heaven.  

[Michael]

of course it's in Greek, παιδι μου!

How else would God understand who the 'icon' is if you don't speak  the language He uses in Heaven!?  

Oh, come on, Chris!  Everyone knows that God speaks Slavonic with an English accent!

[Elisha]

I think the Sts. Perpetua & Felicity icon is legit (that is NOT supposed to be a lesbian embrace if anyone was thinking that), but the rest must go.

Btw, is he the same "iconographer" who painted the "rotunda" in St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church in San Francisco?  Just curious.

[Matthew777]

I don't think these questionable icons are any worse than white depictions of Christ.

Back to the OP, "gay-friendly" has the explicit connotation that they do not require gays to repent of their sins. That's just uncool.

Peace.

[Zoe]

Or maybe gay-friendly means they won't tell you you're going to hell upon revealing that you have such tendencies?

[Matthew777]

Or maybe gay-friendly means they won't tell you you're going to hell upon revealing that you have such tendencies?

I'd recommend that you look at the site itself, it doesn't seem to have that meaning. This is most likely a list of churches where they will not tell you that homosexuality is sinful.

Peace.

[montalban]

Oh, come on, Chris!  Everyone knows that God speaks Slavonic with an English accent!

I should point out that Australians are the only people in the world who don't have an accent  

[Fr. George]

I don't think these questionable icons are any worse than white depictions of Christ.

Hmm... I haven't seen a "white" depiction of CHrist outside of a catholic Church.  Most icons I see have his skin tone like Jesus was out in the sun all day every day (not quite as dark as the Turk/Arab mix, but still, not Euro-white).

[CRCulver]

I'm asking why he still sells them. Because he does, to seemingly no end.  I'm asking why ANY of his garbage is still for sale.

Where are you finding that he personally still sells them? If you are talking about RobertLentz.com, the site is a linkfarm that's run by someone else. Others may continue to sell the works because he sold them the rights. He himself has repented and gone back to his church, but he can't do much about images that are already out there.

[Carpatho Russian]

of course it's in Greek, παιδι μου!
How else would God understand who the 'icon' is if you don't speak  the language He uses in Heaven!?  

Everyone knows that the angels that surround God's Throne constantly sing "Agios! Agios! Agios!" and the Archangel Michael whispers the translation in God's ear, "Svjat! Svjat! Svjat!"

[montalban]

Although all people sin, it isn't that many groups of people that celibrate that they sin. Gay-pride marches and the like make it hard for the Church to be 'friendly' insofar as these groups may have no intention of actually repenting.

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