Homeschool VS Public School

[Maria]

I chose to homeschool my son from first grade through high school.

Here is one news story about a Kindergarten show and tell where a child drew a lot of attention to himself:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/20/crack-pipe-show-and-tell-_n_971927.html

Below is a news video of a Kindergarten teacher who was arrested for having a cache of guns and drugs in her classroom:

http://ilpvideo.com/video.php?v=MjQ2OTk

[Justin Kissel]

Homeskooled kids don't get enuff socialization IMO.

[BoredMeeting]

Homeskooled kids don't get enuff socialization IMO.

Any facts to support your opinion?

[FormerReformer]

Homeskooled kids don't get enuff socialization IMO.

Any facts to support your opinion?

Some people just don't get satire.

[vamrat]

Homeskooled kids don't get enuff socialization IMO.

Any facts to support your opinion?

Some people just don't get satire.

Since it was Asteriktos, I figured something was up.  Unfortunately, that was the first thing that gave it away.  Having gone through publik skooling the poor spelling did not immediately strike me as out of place.

[Fr.Aidan]

My mother taught algebra and calculus at a high school in Austin just over ten years ago. The principal of the school was eventually fired - for dealing crack out of the principal's office.

Gun threats - students dealing crack in the classroom, during class - students engaged in sexual intercourse right in the middle of the hallway - these were things which led my mother, in the end, to resign.

Homeschooling makes a child better prepared for life (life outside a jail cell), better prepared for college, and "more smarter." According to my reading. (Your mileage may vary.)

[Shiny]

I think homeschool for me would have been awful because of one reason alone: culture shock. It would be too much like the allegory of the cave. Here I am growing up in a township of barely many residents and if I was homeschooled I would have no knowledge of the outside world and wouldn't be conditioned by it either.

When my father transferred to Colorado, we moved into a very large suburb and it took a long time to shed my naitevity. Before that I sincerely did not know what a lie was. And when I learned what a lie was, which was like the 6th grade, I recalled being lied to many a time by my former classmates but I was so aloof back then. I was a pretty sheltered kid though and wish it remained that way.

Anyway if I was home schooled, I don't even know how I could function in the society we live in. I don't think I could, it would be much easier to be a monk though. Not sayng monks are socially dysfunctional, but my ignorance on so many different sins would have benefited me in a monastery

[Fr. George]

I was always puzzled by the argument that kids learn to socialize better in school, considering that the school environment (kids segregated by age, herded) is not replicated anywhere else.

[William]

How come so many conservative Christians homeschool their children?

On another forum (about videogames) I used to frequent, all of the Christian kids were homeschooled. My old, RC traditionalist Chinese teacher with ten kids homeschools his kids, too.

[scamandrius]

I was always puzzled by the argument that kids learn to socialize better in school, considering that the school environment (kids segregated by age, herded) is not replicated anywhere else.

+1

[Opus118]

Public schools (state funded in the UK, since this term has a different meaning).

I did a survey related to this issue around a dinner table of 20 or more scientists at a fairly exclusive meeting in the early 1990s. All but one of the scientists attended public schools (the exception went to a Catholic school until high school). Most were American (this probably would not be the case these days). I am fairly sure Aaron Klug was also at the table, but public education in Durbin South Africa is the late 30s early 40s is probably not relevant, I am just name dropping as my memory comes back to me (so far I only remember his name and the exception to the result of my query).

[Fr.Aidan]

Opus118, you have made a good point which speaks in favor of the "homeschooled are higher-achieving" model.

From the 1950s to the early 1990s, the percentage of homeschooled children in the U.S. was consistently at or below one percent of school-age children.

Your meeting indicates that this 1% (or less) was disproportionately represented in the scientists' meeting you attended, and rather strikingly so.

Of course, the sample is so small that it may not be statistically significant.

But I'm sure you knew that, when you started typing.

[Justin Kissel]

I do believe I've been misunderstood...

[BoredMeeting]

I do believe I've been misunderstood...

So you were a soul whose intentions were good?

[ambatzoglou]

It seem like there is a whole lot of uneducated speculation going on on this thread. I understand it's old, but really. Really? Read John Taylor Gatto, please. While I understand the necessity of government schools, criticize homeschooling the way it has been is baffling to me. Here are a few stats. If they're redundant, forgive me. I read the first page, skipped thru several years and read the last three or four.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

This is what I grabbed in a 30 second search.

More regarding socialization:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/dec/13/home-schooling-socialization-not-problem/

http://school.familyeducation.com/home-schooling/human-relations/56224.html

[yeshuaisiam]

We homeschool our 5 children.

The scriptures say:

1) The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge - Proverbs 1:7
The Lord is not allowed in public schools, open prayer forbidden.  Where God is not allowed, neither will my children be.

2) The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the holy one is understanding.  -Proverbs 9:10  -  Same concept, the Lord is not allowed in public schools.

3)  Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it. - Proverbs 22:6
Public school offers a child 9 hours a day of a godless environment.

4) The Lord speaking of his commandments in Deuteronomy 19- 18 “Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 19 You shall teach them to your children, speaking of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up."
---A parent has a lot more time with their children to teach them of God's word at home, unlike public school, where they are indoctrinated with atheism, evolution, homosexuality, etc.

5) 2 Timothy 3 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
----We are to train up our children in righteousness, correct our children in the scriptures.  Public school does not offer this.

6) Deuteronomy 4:9 Only take care, and keep your soul diligently, lest you forget the things that your eyes have seen, and lest they depart from your heart all the days of your life. Make them known to your children and your children's children—
---- I wonder how God feels about people sending their child to a place where HE is not accepted.

7) Also the other scriptures about not being "worldly".   "Be not of this world" - "The children of the world are wicked", "my kingdom is not of this world". etc. etc.  ---- Public school is worldly.

I'll leave out the politics on this (there should be a thread about homeschool in politics).   From a religious front, where we have been commanded to raise our children, and children to listen to instructions from their parents, I think the scriptures say it all.

With that, ANY of you who believe homeschooled children are not socialized are HIGHLY mistaken.  My children have friends from their homeschool group, friends at church, cousins, pen pals....   In fact there is a homeschool family (from our group) coming over for supper tomorrow (they have 4 children).   Then, we are visiting my wife's church Sunday with 49 children.   (Mennonites have huge families) THEN next Thursday, we are going to meet with another homeschool family with 3 children.   

Homeschool group park day is next Friday.   Cousins on Saturday after.

Pen pals all between.

[JamesR]

How come so many conservative Christians homeschool their children?

Science, Evolution and a non-biased explanation of sex.

[Cyrillic]

1) The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge - Proverbs 1:7
The Lord is not allowed in public schools, open prayer forbidden.  Where God is not allowed, neither will my children be.

2) The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the holy one is understanding.  -Proverbs 9:10  -  Same concept, the Lord is not allowed in public schools.

 

[Arachne]

1) The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge - Proverbs 1:7
The Lord is not allowed in public schools, open prayer forbidden.  Where God is not allowed, neither will my children be.

2) The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the holy one is understanding.  -Proverbs 9:10  -  Same concept, the Lord is not allowed in public schools.

 

There's plenty of public prayer in British public schools. We call it assembly. It's true that it can't be very tradition-specific, as a public school deals with children from many religious traditions. But Spirit is there.

I have no issues with homeschooling, myself, as long as it is done properly: hire a governess and/or tutor. Teachers don't just waste time in university; they really know more than the parents, even with all the resources that claim to help.

[yeshuaisiam]

1) The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge - Proverbs 1:7
The Lord is not allowed in public schools, open prayer forbidden.  Where God is not allowed, neither will my children be.

2) The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the holy one is understanding.  -Proverbs 9:10  -  Same concept, the Lord is not allowed in public schools.

 

There's plenty of public prayer in British public schools. We call it assembly. It's true that it can't be very tradition-specific, as a public school deals with children from many religious traditions. But Spirit is there.

I have no issues with homeschooling, myself, as long as it is done properly: hire a governess and/or tutor. Teachers don't just waste time in university; they really know more than the parents, even with all the resources that claim to help.

In America, open prayer is NOT permitted.

In the UK
If the prayer is not in the name of God, his son, or directed towards Christ, Jesus, Yeshua, YHWH, it is not God they are praying to.  It is like an "open prayer" to whichever God fits.  (similar to what the Masons claim they do).

Homeschool does not require a governess or tutor, it requires dedicated parents willing to teach and  bring their children up in the Lord.

[Kerdy]

How come so many conservative Christians homeschool their children?

Science, Evolution and a non-biased explanation of sex.

Science - no.
Evolution - maybe.
Unbiased explanation of sex - depends on who you think is unbiased.

There are a lot of reasons.  I just had a serious talk with my wife about homeschooling mainly because the system is horribly failing my youngest child.

[Arachne]

If the prayer is not in the name of God, his son, or directed towards Christ, Jesus, Yeshua, YHWH, it is not God they are praying to.  It is like an "open prayer" to whichever God fits.  (similar to what the Masons claim they do).

The school does not guide worship. That is for the parents to do. What it does is provide an opportunity for children to pray to Godhead as they have been taught to perceive it.

Homeschool does not require a governess or tutor, it requires dedicated parents willing to teach and  bring their children up in the Lord.

I disagree. Good intentions are simply not good enough.

[Cyrillic]

If the prayer is not in the name of God, his son, or directed towards Christ, Jesus, Yeshua, YHWH, it is not God they are praying to.  It is like an "open prayer" to whichever God fits.  (similar to what the Masons claim they do).

So if you say a prayer you'll get into trouble?

[Kerdy]

If the prayer is not in the name of God, his son, or directed towards Christ, Jesus, Yeshua, YHWH, it is not God they are praying to.  It is like an "open prayer" to whichever God fits.  (similar to what the Masons claim they do).

So if you say a prayer you'll get into trouble?

Shocking, isn't it?!

[Cyrillic]

If the prayer is not in the name of God, his son, or directed towards Christ, Jesus, Yeshua, YHWH, it is not God they are praying to.  It is like an "open prayer" to whichever God fits.  (similar to what the Masons claim they do).

So if you say a prayer you'll get into trouble?

Shocking, isn't it?!

I can't believe it.

[mike]

Yeshuaisiam: I want to have it clear: you criticize the Orthodox Church for ecumenism but you also criticize schools that do not allow inter-religious prayers for students, right? Where is the sense in it?

[Alpo]

I've never heard of homeschooling in Finland. I believe if some Finnish Orthodox parents told out loud that they want to homeschool their children they'd get lots of weird looks both inside and outside of their parish. There are some so-called Christians schools in here but they are far and wide and I don't think any Orthodox parent would place their children there since they are filled with fringe Evangelicals and Pentecostals.

[yeshuaisiam]

If the prayer is not in the name of God, his son, or directed towards Christ, Jesus, Yeshua, YHWH, it is not God they are praying to.  It is like an "open prayer" to whichever God fits.  (similar to what the Masons claim they do).

The school does not guide worship. That is for the parents to do. What it does is provide an opportunity for children to pray to Godhead as they have been taught to perceive it.

Homeschool does not require a governess or tutor, it requires dedicated parents willing to teach and  bring their children up in the Lord.

I disagree. Good intentions are simply not good enough.

I don't agree with you either.  Since we are not trained teachers, and belong to a group of untrained teachers, (just parents), yet have a 50% university acceptance and 90% either go to a university or community college,  I would say that is a good turn out.

My children do not pray to a Godhead, they pray to our lord and savior Yeshua.
**But your argument is around Britain schools which I suppose lets "universal prayer".   In America, they are not allowed to do this.

[yeshuaisiam]

Yeshuaisiam: I want to have it clear: you criticize the Orthodox Church for ecumenism but you also criticize schools that do not allow inter-religious prayers for students, right? Where is the sense in it?

No, that's not what I was saying.

I criticize the Orthodox Church for ecumenism, and criticize public schools (in other countries) for "universal worship". 

I would not want my children praying to a Godhead in "universal prayer".

I believe that we are to "train our children up in the Lord", thus prayer directed towards Christ (in public school).

Of course, this does not matter in the USA as it is forbidden.

[yeshuaisiam]

If the prayer is not in the name of God, his son, or directed towards Christ, Jesus, Yeshua, YHWH, it is not God they are praying to.  It is like an "open prayer" to whichever God fits.  (similar to what the Masons claim they do).

So if you say a prayer you'll get into trouble?

Shocking, isn't it?!

I can't believe it.

Absolutely you'll get into trouble, especially if its not just prayer, and your children start writing stories on biblical issues.   Open prayer has gotten children & teens suspended here in the USA numerous times.  A book report can't be done on individual biblical books.  It's pretty sad.


EDIT- here is what IS allowed:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/24/fourth-grader-gay-marriage-essay-_n_3148699.html

[pmpn8rGPT]

If the prayer is not in the name of God, his son, or directed towards Christ, Jesus, Yeshua, YHWH, it is not God they are praying to.  It is like an "open prayer" to whichever God fits.  (similar to what the Masons claim they do).

So if you say a prayer you'll get into trouble?

Shocking, isn't it?!

I can't believe it.

Absolutely you'll get into trouble, especially if its not just prayer, and your children start writing stories on biblical issues.   Open prayer has gotten children & teens suspended here in the USA numerous times.  A book report can't be done on individual biblical books.  It's pretty sad.


EDIT- here is what IS allowed:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/24/fourth-grader-gay-marriage-essay-_n_3148699.html

Classic statism.

[ambatzoglou]

I have no issues with homeschooling, myself, as long as it is done properly: hire a governess and/or tutor. Teachers don't just waste time in university; they really know more than the parents, even with all the resources that claim to help.

Really? Read the links I posted. You're only proving that your criticism is completely unfounded. Pay specific attention to the graphs showing education level of the parents and money spent per student. If you can't be bothered to brush up on the facts, maybe you should refrain from deciding what constitutes propriety for children who do not belong to you.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

[Arachne]

I have no issues with homeschooling, myself, as long as it is done properly: hire a governess and/or tutor. Teachers don't just waste time in university; they really know more than the parents, even with all the resources that claim to help.

Really? Read the links I posted. You're only proving that your criticism is completely unfounded. Pay specific attention to the graphs showing education level of the parents and money spent per student. If you can't be bothered to brush up on the facts, maybe you should refrain from deciding what constitutes propriety for children who do not belong to you.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

I am a parent and a teacher, thank you very much. Perhaps you need to remind yourself of the fact that other countries can make a much better job of public education than the miserable excuse of a system that your country insists on not reforming.

[ambatzoglou]

I have no issues with homeschooling, myself, as long as it is done properly: hire a governess and/or tutor. Teachers don't just waste time in university; they really know more than the parents, even with all the resources that claim to help.

Really? Read the links I posted. You're only proving that your criticism is completely unfounded. Pay specific attention to the graphs showing education level of the parents and money spent per student. If you can't be bothered to brush up on the facts, maybe you should refrain from deciding what constitutes propriety for children who do not belong to you.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

I am a parent and a teacher, thank you very much. Perhaps you need to remind yourself of the fact that other countries can make a much better job of public education than the miserable excuse of a system that your country insists on not reforming.

That is why I specified *other people's children* The miserable system is one of the biggest reason we do homeschool. We can give our children a better education than both public and private school. If faced with the same system, I'm sure you would find the best way to educate your children. The research backs up our decision, and we've sucked it up and we're putting in the hard work. I don't doubt you do what is best for your  children's education, and I'm also sure you have vigorously pursued that route. That's what good parents do. I took umbrage with uneducated assumptions and opinions regarding completely solid and rigorous education. Especially when very simple stats were clearly accessible and easy to read. This was not a personal attack, I was pointing out that no one has the right to dictate propriety to anyone outside of their own children.

[Arachne]

I have no issues with homeschooling, myself, as long as it is done properly: hire a governess and/or tutor. Teachers don't just waste time in university; they really know more than the parents, even with all the resources that claim to help.

Really? Read the links I posted. You're only proving that your criticism is completely unfounded. Pay specific attention to the graphs showing education level of the parents and money spent per student. If you can't be bothered to brush up on the facts, maybe you should refrain from deciding what constitutes propriety for children who do not belong to you.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

I am a parent and a teacher, thank you very much. Perhaps you need to remind yourself of the fact that other countries can make a much better job of public education than the miserable excuse of a system that your country insists on not reforming.

That is why I specified *other people's children* The miserable system is one of the biggest reason we do homeschool. We can give our children a better education than both public and private school. If faced with the same system, I'm sure you would find the best way to educate your children. The research backs up our decision, and we've sucked it up and we're putting in the hard work. I don't doubt you do what is best for your  children's education, and I'm also sure you have vigorously pursued that route. That's what good parents do. I took umbrage with uneducated assumptions and opinions regarding completely solid and rigorous education. Especially when very simple stats were clearly accessible and easy to read. This was not a personal attack, I was pointing out that no one has the right to dictate propriety to anyone outside of their own children.

Not everyone is happy with the public school system here either. But they don't homeschool - they band together and found community independent schools. The only homeschooled kids in the UK are those whose parents have made such a poor job of socialising them that they can't function in a school environment - and those are overseen by social services and mental health professionals. They're not left to their parents' devices, for obvious reasons.

If the education system is bankrupt, either reform it or abolish it altogether. Jumping ship is not the answer.

[Kerdy]

I have no issues with homeschooling, myself, as long as it is done properly: hire a governess and/or tutor. Teachers don't just waste time in university; they really know more than the parents, even with all the resources that claim to help.

Really? Read the links I posted. You're only proving that your criticism is completely unfounded. Pay specific attention to the graphs showing education level of the parents and money spent per student. If you can't be bothered to brush up on the facts, maybe you should refrain from deciding what constitutes propriety for children who do not belong to you.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

I am a parent and a teacher, thank you very much. Perhaps you need to remind yourself of the fact that other countries can make a much better job of public education than the miserable excuse of a system that your country insists on not reforming.

That is why I specified *other people's children* The miserable system is one of the biggest reason we do homeschool. We can give our children a better education than both public and private school. If faced with the same system, I'm sure you would find the best way to educate your children. The research backs up our decision, and we've sucked it up and we're putting in the hard work. I don't doubt you do what is best for your  children's education, and I'm also sure you have vigorously pursued that route. That's what good parents do. I took umbrage with uneducated assumptions and opinions regarding completely solid and rigorous education. Especially when very simple stats were clearly accessible and easy to read. This was not a personal attack, I was pointing out that no one has the right to dictate propriety to anyone outside of their own children.

Not everyone is happy with the public school system here either. But they don't homeschool - they band together and found community independent schools. The only homeschooled kids in the UK are those whose parents have made such a poor job of socialising them that they can't function in a school environment - and those are overseen by social services and mental health professionals. They're not left to their parents' devices, for obvious reasons.

If the education system is bankrupt, either reform it or abolish it altogether. Jumping ship is not the answer.

If we abolish it, that is sort of jumping ship.  What you don't seem understand is the "too big to fail" mentality.  It's kind of dumb.  What you also do not appear to be taking into consideration is the overwhelming number of crap teachers in this country.  Then add they are unionized and a whole glob of other things which cause problems and blamo, you have what we are saying stinks and why people choose to education their own children.  There are very few professional teachers left here.  Very few who actually teach instead of repeat what is in the book.  I could go on with example after example, but I won’t bore you to death, but I will add when a parent approaches teacher after teacher, year after year, to have their child tested for specific learning disadvantages and nothing is done and results in the same thing every year (the teachers asking the parents to do their job – which makes one ask why they don’t home school), there is a problem.

Additionally, many home schooling parents do get together and group teach.  Many times, they have team sports as well.

[Arachne]

I have no issues with homeschooling, myself, as long as it is done properly: hire a governess and/or tutor. Teachers don't just waste time in university; they really know more than the parents, even with all the resources that claim to help.

Really? Read the links I posted. You're only proving that your criticism is completely unfounded. Pay specific attention to the graphs showing education level of the parents and money spent per student. If you can't be bothered to brush up on the facts, maybe you should refrain from deciding what constitutes propriety for children who do not belong to you.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

I am a parent and a teacher, thank you very much. Perhaps you need to remind yourself of the fact that other countries can make a much better job of public education than the miserable excuse of a system that your country insists on not reforming.

That is why I specified *other people's children* The miserable system is one of the biggest reason we do homeschool. We can give our children a better education than both public and private school. If faced with the same system, I'm sure you would find the best way to educate your children. The research backs up our decision, and we've sucked it up and we're putting in the hard work. I don't doubt you do what is best for your  children's education, and I'm also sure you have vigorously pursued that route. That's what good parents do. I took umbrage with uneducated assumptions and opinions regarding completely solid and rigorous education. Especially when very simple stats were clearly accessible and easy to read. This was not a personal attack, I was pointing out that no one has the right to dictate propriety to anyone outside of their own children.

Not everyone is happy with the public school system here either. But they don't homeschool - they band together and found community independent schools. The only homeschooled kids in the UK are those whose parents have made such a poor job of socialising them that they can't function in a school environment - and those are overseen by social services and mental health professionals. They're not left to their parents' devices, for obvious reasons.

If the education system is bankrupt, either reform it or abolish it altogether. Jumping ship is not the answer.

If we abolish it, that is sort of jumping ship.  What you don't seem understand is the "too big to fail" mentality.  It's kind of dumb.  What you also do not appear to be taking into consideration is the overwhelming number of crap teachers in this country.  Then add they are unionized and a whole glob of other things which cause problems and blamo, you have what we are saying stinks and why people choose to education their own children.  There are very few professional teachers left here.  Very few who actually teach instead of repeat what is in the book.  I could go on with example after example, but I won’t bore you to death, but I will add when a parent approaches teacher after teacher, year after year, to have their child tested for specific learning disadvantages and nothing is done and results in the same thing every year (the teachers asking the parents to do their job – which makes one ask why they don’t home school), there is a problem.

Additionally, many home schooling parents do get together and group teach.  Many times, they have team sports as well.

There are crap teachers everywhere. The question is why are they hired?

I have several colleague friends from over there. The biggest problem seems to be that the good teachers are treated like dirt. There's only so much abuse one can take before losing the drive to do their job well. If half of what I've had communicated to me happened over here, the teachers' unions would be in an uproar (and yes, unions do their job properly over here too).

[Cyrillic]

Absolutely you'll get into trouble, especially if its not just prayer, and your children start writing stories on biblical issues.   Open prayer has gotten children & teens suspended here in the USA numerous times.  A book report can't be done on individual biblical books.  It's pretty sad.


EDIT- here is what IS allowed:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/24/fourth-grader-gay-marriage-essay-_n_3148699.html

Oh wow. I would probably have been kicked out of school were I an American. So much for the land of the free.

[Kerdy]

I have no issues with homeschooling, myself, as long as it is done properly: hire a governess and/or tutor. Teachers don't just waste time in university; they really know more than the parents, even with all the resources that claim to help.

Really? Read the links I posted. You're only proving that your criticism is completely unfounded. Pay specific attention to the graphs showing education level of the parents and money spent per student. If you can't be bothered to brush up on the facts, maybe you should refrain from deciding what constitutes propriety for children who do not belong to you.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

I am a parent and a teacher, thank you very much. Perhaps you need to remind yourself of the fact that other countries can make a much better job of public education than the miserable excuse of a system that your country insists on not reforming.

That is why I specified *other people's children* The miserable system is one of the biggest reason we do homeschool. We can give our children a better education than both public and private school. If faced with the same system, I'm sure you would find the best way to educate your children. The research backs up our decision, and we've sucked it up and we're putting in the hard work. I don't doubt you do what is best for your  children's education, and I'm also sure you have vigorously pursued that route. That's what good parents do. I took umbrage with uneducated assumptions and opinions regarding completely solid and rigorous education. Especially when very simple stats were clearly accessible and easy to read. This was not a personal attack, I was pointing out that no one has the right to dictate propriety to anyone outside of their own children.

Not everyone is happy with the public school system here either. But they don't homeschool - they band together and found community independent schools. The only homeschooled kids in the UK are those whose parents have made such a poor job of socialising them that they can't function in a school environment - and those are overseen by social services and mental health professionals. They're not left to their parents' devices, for obvious reasons.

If the education system is bankrupt, either reform it or abolish it altogether. Jumping ship is not the answer.

If we abolish it, that is sort of jumping ship.  What you don't seem understand is the "too big to fail" mentality.  It's kind of dumb.  What you also do not appear to be taking into consideration is the overwhelming number of crap teachers in this country.  Then add they are unionized and a whole glob of other things which cause problems and blamo, you have what we are saying stinks and why people choose to education their own children.  There are very few professional teachers left here.  Very few who actually teach instead of repeat what is in the book.  I could go on with example after example, but I won’t bore you to death, but I will add when a parent approaches teacher after teacher, year after year, to have their child tested for specific learning disadvantages and nothing is done and results in the same thing every year (the teachers asking the parents to do their job – which makes one ask why they don’t home school), there is a problem.

Additionally, many home schooling parents do get together and group teach.  Many times, they have team sports as well.

There are crap teachers everywhere. The question is why are they hired?

I have several colleague friends from over there. The biggest problem seems to be that the good teachers are treated like dirt. There's only so much abuse one can take before losing the drive to do their job well. If half of what I've had communicated to me happened over here, the teachers' unions would be in an uproar (and yes, unions do their job properly over here too).

That is a good question!

I am sure you guys have a great system.  I've even considered moving there.

[Arachne]

I have no issues with homeschooling, myself, as long as it is done properly: hire a governess and/or tutor. Teachers don't just waste time in university; they really know more than the parents, even with all the resources that claim to help.

Really? Read the links I posted. You're only proving that your criticism is completely unfounded. Pay specific attention to the graphs showing education level of the parents and money spent per student. If you can't be bothered to brush up on the facts, maybe you should refrain from deciding what constitutes propriety for children who do not belong to you.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

I am a parent and a teacher, thank you very much. Perhaps you need to remind yourself of the fact that other countries can make a much better job of public education than the miserable excuse of a system that your country insists on not reforming.

That is why I specified *other people's children* The miserable system is one of the biggest reason we do homeschool. We can give our children a better education than both public and private school. If faced with the same system, I'm sure you would find the best way to educate your children. The research backs up our decision, and we've sucked it up and we're putting in the hard work. I don't doubt you do what is best for your  children's education, and I'm also sure you have vigorously pursued that route. That's what good parents do. I took umbrage with uneducated assumptions and opinions regarding completely solid and rigorous education. Especially when very simple stats were clearly accessible and easy to read. This was not a personal attack, I was pointing out that no one has the right to dictate propriety to anyone outside of their own children.

Not everyone is happy with the public school system here either. But they don't homeschool - they band together and found community independent schools. The only homeschooled kids in the UK are those whose parents have made such a poor job of socialising them that they can't function in a school environment - and those are overseen by social services and mental health professionals. They're not left to their parents' devices, for obvious reasons.

If the education system is bankrupt, either reform it or abolish it altogether. Jumping ship is not the answer.

If we abolish it, that is sort of jumping ship.  What you don't seem understand is the "too big to fail" mentality.  It's kind of dumb.  What you also do not appear to be taking into consideration is the overwhelming number of crap teachers in this country.  Then add they are unionized and a whole glob of other things which cause problems and blamo, you have what we are saying stinks and why people choose to education their own children.  There are very few professional teachers left here.  Very few who actually teach instead of repeat what is in the book.  I could go on with example after example, but I won’t bore you to death, but I will add when a parent approaches teacher after teacher, year after year, to have their child tested for specific learning disadvantages and nothing is done and results in the same thing every year (the teachers asking the parents to do their job – which makes one ask why they don’t home school), there is a problem.

Additionally, many home schooling parents do get together and group teach.  Many times, they have team sports as well.

There are crap teachers everywhere. The question is why are they hired?

I have several colleague friends from over there. The biggest problem seems to be that the good teachers are treated like dirt. There's only so much abuse one can take before losing the drive to do their job well. If half of what I've had communicated to me happened over here, the teachers' unions would be in an uproar (and yes, unions do their job properly over here too).

That is a good question!

I am sure you guys have a great system.  I've even considered moving there.

It certainly feels much more supportive than anything I have been told about the American system. Here you wouldn't have to chase the teacher - the school's learning consultant would actually contact you. There's a kid with mild mental retardation issues in my son's class; he has his own personal handler, but is encouraged to join in with the rest of the kids, and even I have noticed improvement since the start of the year.

[mike]

Yeshuaisiam: I want to have it clear: you criticize the Orthodox Church for ecumenism but you also criticize schools that do not allow inter-religious prayers for students, right? Where is the sense in it?

No, that's not what I was saying.

I criticize the Orthodox Church for ecumenism, and criticize public schools (in other countries) for "universal worship". 

I would not want my children praying to a Godhead in "universal prayer".

I believe that we are to "train our children up in the Lord", thus prayer directed towards Christ (in public school).

Of course, this does not matter in the USA as it is forbidden.

You want the schools to have ecumenical prayers to Christ.

[podkarpatska]

I have no issues with homeschooling, myself, as long as it is done properly: hire a governess and/or tutor. Teachers don't just waste time in university; they really know more than the parents, even with all the resources that claim to help.

Really? Read the links I posted. You're only proving that your criticism is completely unfounded. Pay specific attention to the graphs showing education level of the parents and money spent per student. If you can't be bothered to brush up on the facts, maybe you should refrain from deciding what constitutes propriety for children who do not belong to you.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

I am a parent and a teacher, thank you very much. Perhaps you need to remind yourself of the fact that other countries can make a much better job of public education than the miserable excuse of a system that your country insists on not reforming.

That is why I specified *other people's children* The miserable system is one of the biggest reason we do homeschool. We can give our children a better education than both public and private school. If faced with the same system, I'm sure you would find the best way to educate your children. The research backs up our decision, and we've sucked it up and we're putting in the hard work. I don't doubt you do what is best for your  children's education, and I'm also sure you have vigorously pursued that route. That's what good parents do. I took umbrage with uneducated assumptions and opinions regarding completely solid and rigorous education. Especially when very simple stats were clearly accessible and easy to read. This was not a personal attack, I was pointing out that no one has the right to dictate propriety to anyone outside of their own children.

Not everyone is happy with the public school system here either. But they don't homeschool - they band together and found community independent schools. The only homeschooled kids in the UK are those whose parents have made such a poor job of socialising them that they can't function in a school environment - and those are overseen by social services and mental health professionals. They're not left to their parents' devices, for obvious reasons.

If the education system is bankrupt, either reform it or abolish it altogether. Jumping ship is not the answer.

If we abolish it, that is sort of jumping ship.  What you don't seem understand is the "too big to fail" mentality.  It's kind of dumb.  What you also do not appear to be taking into consideration is the overwhelming number of crap teachers in this country.  Then add they are unionized and a whole glob of other things which cause problems and blamo, you have what we are saying stinks and why people choose to education their own children.  There are very few professional teachers left here.  Very few who actually teach instead of repeat what is in the book.  I could go on with example after example, but I won’t bore you to death, but I will add when a parent approaches teacher after teacher, year after year, to have their child tested for specific learning disadvantages and nothing is done and results in the same thing every year (the teachers asking the parents to do their job – which makes one ask why they don’t home school), there is a problem.

Additionally, many home schooling parents do get together and group teach.  Many times, they have team sports as well.

There are crap teachers everywhere. The question is why are they hired?

I have several colleague friends from over there. The biggest problem seems to be that the good teachers are treated like dirt. There's only so much abuse one can take before losing the drive to do their job well. If half of what I've had communicated to me happened over here, the teachers' unions would be in an uproar (and yes, unions do their job properly over here too).

That is a good question!

I am sure you guys have a great system.  I've even considered moving there.

It certainly feels much more supportive than anything I have been told about the American system. Here you wouldn't have to chase the teacher - the school's learning consultant would actually contact you. There's a kid with mild mental retardation issues in my son's class; he has his own personal handler, but is encouraged to join in with the rest of the kids, and even I have noticed improvement since the start of the year.

Couple of points about USA and education. First,, we handed over school control to lawyers. But no one here really wants legal reform because we are a self centered culture and expect exceptionalism and the "right" to sue the other guy and the need to blame someone else for failure. This has led to the brainless, one size fits all, administrate by policy manuals, which are designed to protect educators and administrators in court when sued. Zero tolerance and all of the other excuses created to avoid use of one's brain. Secondly we are so caught up in statistics and trends, we've lost touch with the basics.

That being said, my kid's were not  home-schooled.  All did well in school, they were brought up in an intellectually challenging home environment which tried to be Christ centered. Thanks be to God, the three grew up to become balanced adults and Orthodox Christians.Thirty year later, their best friends from childhood remain their church and church-camp friends.  But there are no guarantees in life...some parents share our experiences, many do not. Keep in mind that homeschooling is no guarantee of success in child rearing either. There are no magic pills or panaceas out there.

[vamrat]

Couple of points about USA and education. First,, we handed over school control to lawyers. But no one here really wants legal reform because we are a self centered culture and expect exceptionalism and the "right" to sue the other guy and the need to blame someone else for failure. This has led to the brainless, one size fits all, administrate by policy manuals, which are designed to protect educators and administrators in court when sued. Zero tolerance and all of the other excuses created to avoid use of one's brain. Secondly we are so caught up in statistics and trends, we've lost touch with the basics.

There are so many problems that this can be applied to in this country.  Specifically in the case of education, you have summed up the problems in one paragraph.  I don't think anything better than this will come out of this thread.

[augustin717]

from my limited  observations, I don't think American schools especially those frequented by students of middle class background are really bad compared to what's going on elsewhere; maybe the teaching/acquisition of a foreign language is a thing that puts them at some disadvantage, but that it's unlikely to go away as lomng as there is no objective need to really learn another language besides your native one that happens to be the lingua franca of the moment. Where american public schools are really dismal it's in the ghettoes but that's already an economic and racial issue so asking teachers to dramatically change that, all other things staying the same is a joke. i have a good friend that has taught in Englewood neighborhood for over a decade. hopeless, he says.

[yeshuaisiam]

I have no issues with homeschooling, myself, as long as it is done properly: hire a governess and/or tutor. Teachers don't just waste time in university; they really know more than the parents, even with all the resources that claim to help.

Really? Read the links I posted. You're only proving that your criticism is completely unfounded. Pay specific attention to the graphs showing education level of the parents and money spent per student. If you can't be bothered to brush up on the facts, maybe you should refrain from deciding what constitutes propriety for children who do not belong to you.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

I am a parent and a teacher, thank you very much. Perhaps you need to remind yourself of the fact that other countries can make a much better job of public education than the miserable excuse of a system that your country insists on not reforming.

That is why I specified *other people's children* The miserable system is one of the biggest reason we do homeschool. We can give our children a better education than both public and private school. If faced with the same system, I'm sure you would find the best way to educate your children. The research backs up our decision, and we've sucked it up and we're putting in the hard work. I don't doubt you do what is best for your  children's education, and I'm also sure you have vigorously pursued that route. That's what good parents do. I took umbrage with uneducated assumptions and opinions regarding completely solid and rigorous education. Especially when very simple stats were clearly accessible and easy to read. This was not a personal attack, I was pointing out that no one has the right to dictate propriety to anyone outside of their own children.

Not everyone is happy with the public school system here either. But they don't homeschool - they band together and found community independent schools. The only homeschooled kids in the UK are those whose parents have made such a poor job of socialising them that they can't function in a school environment - and those are overseen by social services and mental health professionals. They're not left to their parents' devices, for obvious reasons.

If the education system is bankrupt, either reform it or abolish it altogether. Jumping ship is not the answer.

Odd, because I just found some UK homeschool groups that meet twice a week with 63 children in one group, and 84 in the second.

Laura Ingalls Wilder was almost exclusively home schooled.  She had just a couple of years of "public school" where prayer was allowed, and only paid for by the parents who sent their children there.   At 15 she was teaching elementary school.

She went on to become a major American author.

She had way less social resources (way off on the prairies) than my children do.

My children have:
A homeschool group.
Church.
Cousins.
Pen Pals.

They have a curriculum that is fully Christ centered.   My wife taught all of our children to read, and they read very well.  They have a natural curiosity about things and are not afraid to ask questions.

Then there are other effects.  My sons know just about every major tool that exists.  They'll tell you about piston ring separators, amperage, effective charge rates for batteries, etc.   My 11 year old son installed a new toilet bowl BY HIMSELF.  He put the wax ring on, torqued the bolts, hooked up the plumbing, put the water tank on it...

My daughter makes awesome meals, knows how to cook very well.  She sews her own dresses.  She has a wonderful group of Christian based girls (pen pals) through - King's Blooming Rose.   She has a good friend, and church friends. (She's 14)

By the way that King's Blooming Rose, you should google them and look the up.  The girl who does that is 18 and was 100% home schooled.  Everything on that site was done by a home schooled child.  She has magazines, cook books, and an excellent Christian attitude for young women.   I think it would change your perspective on home school.

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