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Author Topic: Homeschool VS Public School  (Read 68373 times) Average Rating: 1
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livefreeordie
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« Reply #90 on: July 11, 2009, 10:26:30 PM »


People... I am begging you... just send your kids to regular schools, for your kids' future's sake... (don't reply, and I will not check this thread...)

Once you have an opinion on something, do you just create sweeping negative stereotypes to reinforce those opinions? The fact is homeschool kids by most any reputable study ever done do better on tests and do better after school than those in public schools.

And did your " regular schooling" teach you to respond to people by telling them not to reply to your response because you wouldn't be responding anymore.  Is that an example of mature socialization or of a 6 year old having a tantrum?

While home schooling isn't for everyone, there is no doubt my children are better off being home schooled.  They are grades ahead academically for their age, we live in a city where they can get plenty of socialization from sports clubs, church, etc. and by anybody's measure they excel. In any competitive situation with kids who aren't home schooled they excel. My oldest, who is 10, on his own just started his only little bank for the kids on our street called, "The Kids First Bank" with well written out savings rates, loan rates, etc. In public school at age 10 he'd be reading books that he read when he was seven in home school, doing math he did when he was 6 in home school, and would be bored stiff. All this while the local schools cut budgets, increase class room size, and fire teachers based on seniority rather than skill level or performance.

That being said, in my opinion, no one should homeschool who isn't prepared to approach it with a 100% commitment to making sure their kids excel. And that being said, I went to a public school and thought it did a great job, and in spite of the difficulties they face most teachers I know care a lot and do as good as job as possible.  It's not their fault classes are too big and most parents spend no time with their children's education.  My mom wanted to homeschool but didn't have the time or energy so even though she was a teacher with a masters degree she did the right thing and sent me to public school.
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« Reply #91 on: July 11, 2009, 11:24:06 PM »

People... I am begging you... just send your kids to regular schools, for your kids' future's sake... (don't reply, and I will not check this thread...)

Seriously...I just realised you were a moderator.  This is your response?


I'm doing my kids a favour by schooling them in the way that fits best to their needs and our family's lifestyle.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 11:27:15 PM by Etsi » Logged
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« Reply #92 on: July 12, 2009, 04:13:46 AM »

People... I am begging you... just send your kids to regular schools, for your kids' future's sake... (don't reply, and I will not check this thread...)

Seriously...I just realised you were a moderator.  This is your response?
In my colleague's defense, Heorhij is allowed to post as a mere poster and to expect that his words will be understood as coming from such a position.  If he doesn't post in some moderator font like this, then feel free to read his post just as you would anyone else's.  When he's not speaking as a moderator he is totally free to post something stupid just like anyone else--even I do so from time to time--just so long as he doesn't violate any forum rules (for instance, by attacking someone personally), which he hasn't done here.  (DISCLAIMER:  I don't mean to indicate that I think Heorhij's post here IS stupid, for I really have no opinion on the matter. Wink)

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Etsi
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« Reply #93 on: July 12, 2009, 08:01:04 AM »

Sorry, but I did find it personally offensive.  And so would many other home educators.
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« Reply #94 on: July 12, 2009, 08:34:47 AM »

People... I am begging you... just send your kids to regular schools, for your kids' future's sake... (don't reply, and I will not check this thread...)

Seriously...I just realised you were a moderator.  This is your response?

Unless I write in green, I am writing as a mere participant, not a moderator.
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« Reply #95 on: July 12, 2009, 08:35:59 AM »

Sorry, but I did find it personally offensive.  And so would many other home educators.

Forgive me, but I stand by my words. I am against homeschooling in any shape or form, period. Just my opinion to which I am entitled. I am not debating you or others, just saying what's on my mind. And will keep saying it.
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« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2009, 11:53:56 AM »

Sorry, but I did find it personally offensive.  And so would many other home educators.

Forgive me, but I stand by my words. I am against homeschooling in any shape or form, period. Just my opinion to which I am entitled. I am not debating you or others, just saying what's on my mind. And will keep saying it.

Guess I wasn't sure of the point.  Since it seemed to be a support thread, it appeared inflammatory and trollish.  I could understand if the thread was one to debate the merits and issues of home education.
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« Reply #97 on: July 12, 2009, 12:38:51 PM »

Sorry, but I did find it personally offensive.  And so would many other home educators.

Forgive me, but I stand by my words. I am against homeschooling in any shape or form, period. Just my opinion to which I am entitled. I am not debating you or others, just saying what's on my mind. And will keep saying it.

And I'm sure if you keep saying it like that it will only influence people away from your position so keep on saying it.  I'll even post it again for you,

"People... I am begging you... just send your kids to regular schools, for your kids' future's sake... (don't reply, and I will not check this thread...)"
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« Reply #98 on: July 12, 2009, 03:34:43 PM »

Sorry, but I did find it personally offensive.  And so would many other home educators.

Forgive me, but I stand by my words. I am against homeschooling in any shape or form, period. Just my opinion to which I am entitled. I am not debating you or others, just saying what's on my mind. And will keep saying it.

Guess I wasn't sure of the point.  Since it seemed to be a support thread, it appeared inflammatory and trollish.  I could understand if the thread was one to debate the merits and issues of home education.

The OP asked for opinions, and George gave one....
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« Reply #99 on: July 12, 2009, 03:42:33 PM »

Sorry, but I did find it personally offensive.  And so would many other home educators.

Forgive me, but I stand by my words. I am against homeschooling in any shape or form, period. Just my opinion to which I am entitled. I am not debating you or others, just saying what's on my mind. And will keep saying it.

Guess I wasn't sure of the point.  Since it seemed to be a support thread, it appeared inflammatory and trollish.  I could understand if the thread was one to debate the merits and issues of home education.

The OP asked for opinions

About home education curriculum and groups.  As in what do those that actually home educate use, have used, know that is out there, etc.
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« Reply #100 on: July 12, 2009, 03:44:31 PM »

nm, I know that there are other Orthodox people and places out there that are supportive, rather than out to attack and cut down, home educators and their families.

Sad, and this was a concern of mine with the EO church.  Thankfully the one we are attending have a variety of people and respect other people's choices as being legitimate for their own families.
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« Reply #101 on: July 12, 2009, 04:48:59 PM »

Etsi, OK, I did not want to get into a debate, just simply stated my opinion. But if you want an explanation, here goes.

I find the idea of homeschooling absurd. Teaching children, giving them education at school is a job of PROFESSIONAL, specially educated and highly trained person called teacher. And it must be done in a special environment, called school.

Just like it is the job of a doctor to treat patients, and the job of an engineer to calculate the resistance or endurance of a bridge.

If you (God forbid) develop a gangrene and your foot will have to be amputated, will you tell your husband to do it? Of course not. You will have a doctor, a surgeon do it, in a special environment of an operating room. Why is giving children education different?

I have students who are homeschooled among my students every single semester, and they are invariably among the worst students of mine. They know preciously little, there is a horrendous confusion in their heads, they have zero study skills, and they are overwhelmed by the college life, neurotized by it. I have been teaching in American universities since 1996 (full time since 1998), and I have never seen even one good student who had been homeschooled. They are as good as not schooled.

That's why I do not support homescholing and always, always object against it with all my heart and mind and soul. It's an evil thing, completely. In a way, it is perhaps worse than depriving children of any education, because it gives the children and the parents and the society a wrong message that the children are educated, while they are not.

You Americans boast of the best government system in the world, "we the people," government "of the people for the people by the people." So, if you think that your public schools are bad - press on your government and demand this problem to be fixed!!! Weird, outlandish, doomed to failure things like homeschooling are not only not the answer, they are a timebomb. These so-called "homeschooled" kids will grow up and increase the ranks of the army of ignorant and narrow-minded people, people who are unable to think critically and prone to all kinds of stereotyping and "mythological" thinking (and that in the most militarily powerful country of the world...).

Sorry if you find this opoffensive - I never intended to offend you or anyone, but I think I have the right to speak my mind.

George
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livefreeordie
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« Reply #102 on: July 12, 2009, 06:53:36 PM »

What's evil is stereotyping and demonizing people.

So if you believe that homeschooling is evil, what do you think about the people that homeschool.
 

If in fact your "homeschool" students are among your worst, your experience is different than that of any study I have ever seen on homeschooling.  I went to a pretty good school, Vanderbilt, and the smartest student I ever studied with was a home schooled boy who was a freshman at 16.  He went on to be a heart surgeon.

And you weren't going to read this thread or reply?  Where can I go to learn that self discipline?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 06:54:04 PM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #103 on: July 12, 2009, 07:43:01 PM »

Here's a study that set out to see if nine hypotheses that said there was no difference between the performance of home schooled students and public schooled students were true.  In fact, in eight of the nine the study clearly showed that not only did home schooled do better on standardized tests, there first year GPAs in college were also higher along with taking more credit hours, etc.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3955/is_200404/ai_n9383889/?tag=content;col1

I've never seen a study where home schooled students did worse than publicly schooled one.  In fact, the only studies I've ever found show the opposite, home schooled students excel.  George must just get the dumb ones at the Mississippi College for Women! Smiley Of course it only has about 1100 students so his sample is small! Smiley

Never have I seen more simple minded and bigoted attacks than those leveled at home schoolers.  An interesting discussion would be, in light of all the evidence that shows in most cases children who are home schooled benefit, why is it attacked so vehemently?

And another interesting phenomena, the explosion in home schooling isn't necessarily a completely religious one, more and more non-religious people are homeschooling their children for purely academic reasons.  We got interested in home schooling when we lived in the bay area and most home schoolers we knew were liberal non-church attending, very affluent people.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 07:45:00 PM by livefreeordie » Logged
Michael L
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« Reply #104 on: July 12, 2009, 07:45:49 PM »

In my opinion Homeschooling a child is not just about preparing them for excellence in academic settings or to attain a so called "good job," it is about nurturing their souls and yes being able to better monitor the outside influences on them. Thus, "The primary goal in the education of children is to teach, and to give the example of a virtuous life."(St. John Chrysostom)

Quote
Society does not suffer from a lack of shrewd businessmen or from a lack of the literate and educated. It suffers from a lack of virtuous men. It suffers because it has been flooded by the shrewd, who want nothing other than to increase in riches and to live the comfortable life. It suffers because the power-hungry, in their attempt to ascend, overturn order. It suffers because the acquisition of extravagant homes and comforts has become the sole aim of men. To this the illness of society is owed, these things destroy the harmonic social life, not those who live in virtue and holiness. “Those things which are considered superfluous and unimportant are the very things required for the course of our life.

Read more on: Raising Children According to Saint John Chrysostom http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/raising-children-according-to-saint-john-chrysostom.aspx
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« Reply #105 on: July 12, 2009, 07:46:11 PM »

Quote
About Statistics on Homeschooling in the United States

Various statistics have been printed about parents and children who homeschool in the U.S. Researchers are only just beginning to understand this schooling movement, which to some, threatens to undermine the public school system.

Chris Lubienski stated in the Time Magazine article "Home Sweet School" in that “It is taking some of the most affluent and articulate parents out of the system. These are the parents who know how to get things done with administrators.” In the same article Kellar Noggle stated, “If a large number of a community’s parents do not fully believe in the school system, it gets more difficult to pass those property taxes. And that directly impacts the schools’ ability to operate.”

Read More: http://home-school.lovetoknow.com/Statistics_on_Homeschooling_in_the_United_States
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 07:38:11 PM by Fr. Anastasios » Logged
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« Reply #106 on: July 12, 2009, 10:42:33 PM »

What's evil is stereotyping and demonizing people.

People - yes, ideas - no. I believe the idea of homeschooling is wrong and harmful. The people who bought into it are merely misguided, not evil.

And you weren't going to read this thread or reply?  Where can I go to learn that self discipline?

You thought you would learn it from me? Smiley
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« Reply #107 on: July 12, 2009, 10:44:13 PM »

Here's a study that set out to see if nine hypotheses that said there was no difference between the performance of home schooled students and public schooled students were true.  In fact, in eight of the nine the study clearly showed that not only did home schooled do better on standardized tests, there first year GPAs in college were also higher along with taking more credit hours, etc.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3955/is_200404/ai_n9383889/?tag=content;col1

I've never seen a study where home schooled students did worse than publicly schooled one.  In fact, the only studies I've ever found show the opposite, home schooled students excel.  George must just get the dumb ones at the Mississippi College for Women! Smiley Of course it only has about 1100 students so his sample is small! Smiley

Never have I seen more simple minded and bigoted attacks than those leveled at home schoolers.  An interesting discussion would be, in light of all the evidence that shows in most cases children who are home schooled benefit, why is it attacked so vehemently?

And another interesting phenomena, the explosion in home schooling isn't necessarily a completely religious one, more and more non-religious people are homeschooling their children for purely academic reasons.  We got interested in home schooling when we lived in the bay area and most home schoolers we knew were liberal non-church attending, very affluent people.

Do you agree that if you need to have your foot amputated, you go to a doctor? Or not?
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« Reply #108 on: July 12, 2009, 10:45:02 PM »


Quote
About Statistics on Homeschooling in the United States

Various statistics have been printed about parents and children who homeschool in the U.S. Researchers are only just beginning to understand this schooling movement, which to some, threatens to undermine the public school system.

Chris Lubienski stated in the Time Magazine article "Home Sweet School" in that “It is taking some of the most affluent and articulate parents out of the system. These are the parents who know how to get things done with administrators.” In the same article Kellar Noggle stated, “If a large number of a community’s parents do not fully believe in the school system, it gets more difficult to pass those property taxes. And that directly impacts the schools’ ability to operate.”

Read More: http://home-school.lovetoknow.com/Statistics_on_Homeschooling_in_the_United_States
 

Yup. Plenty of things can one learn from the internet...
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« Reply #109 on: July 12, 2009, 10:58:35 PM »

In my opinion Homeschooling a child is not just about preparing them for excellence in academic settings or to attain a so called "good job," it is about nurturing their souls and yes being able to better monitor the outside influences on them. Thus, "The primary goal in the education of children is to teach, and to give the example of a virtuous life."(St. John Chrysostom)

But then "homeschool" them after school. Why not? You cannot compensate for the lack of real education by instilling good values into them. What's wrong with real education at school AND instilling good values at home?

Society does not suffer from a lack of shrewd businessmen or from a lack of the literate and educated.

Oh yes, it certainly does suffer from a lack of the literate and educated, especially when the society is open, like it is here in the US. The illiterate and the uneducated voted for W... for the war... for torture... for domestic spying... And certainly the illiterate and the uneducated fight teaching evolution at schools.

It suffers from a lack of virtuous men. It suffers because it has been flooded by the shrewd, who want nothing other than to increase in riches and to live the comfortable life.

Wonderful. So the educated are the villains. How deep.

It suffers because the power-hungry, in their attempt to ascend, overturn order.

The power-hungry do not overturn order, they sneak into leadership by using the convenient demagoguery that invariably finds a sincere response in the hearts of the uneducated. Like "four legs good, two legs bad" (Orwell), or "Long live the power of workers and peasants" (Lenin), or "If we don't fight them there, we will have to fight them here" (J.W. Bush).


It suffers because the acquisition of extravagant homes and comforts has become the sole aim of men.

Right, and it's certainly therse university professors who teach people that their home is their most impotrtaint investment or their most important thing in life. And it is these professors who demonstrate, by their own example, what luxurious homes one has to have.

Read more on: Raising Children According to Saint John Chrysostom http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/raising-children-according-to-saint-john-chrysostom.aspx

Better don't.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 11:00:25 PM by Heorhij » Logged

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livefreeordie
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« Reply #110 on: July 12, 2009, 11:01:30 PM »

Here's a study that set out to see if nine hypotheses that said there was no difference between the performance of home schooled students and public schooled students were true.  In fact, in eight of the nine the study clearly showed that not only did home schooled do better on standardized tests, there first year GPAs in college were also higher along with taking more credit hours, etc.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3955/is_200404/ai_n9383889/?tag=content;col1

I've never seen a study where home schooled students did worse than publicly schooled one.  In fact, the only studies I've ever found show the opposite, home schooled students excel.  George must just get the dumb ones at the Mississippi College for Women! Smiley Of course it only has about 1100 students so his sample is small! Smiley

Never have I seen more simple minded and bigoted attacks than those leveled at home schoolers.  An interesting discussion would be, in light of all the evidence that shows in most cases children who are home schooled benefit, why is it attacked so vehemently?

And another interesting phenomena, the explosion in home schooling isn't necessarily a completely religious one, more and more non-religious people are homeschooling their children for purely academic reasons.  We got interested in home schooling when we lived in the bay area and most home schoolers we knew were liberal non-church attending, very affluent people.

Do you agree that if you need to have your foot amputated, you go to a doctor? Or not?

Of course, but you don't need a school teacher to teach your kid to read, write, understand math, etc. And the proof is in the pudding, all my kids are ahead of kids in public school.  The best teacher could not have done this when they are looking after class sizes of 30 plus students.   

And the proof is in the testing.  Home Schooled children test better on all standardized college entrance tests.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 11:03:23 PM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #111 on: July 12, 2009, 11:03:35 PM »

Do you agree that if you need to have your foot amputated, you go to a doctor? Or not?


Of course, but you don't need a school teacher to teach your kid to read, write, understand math, etc.

YES YOU DO.

And the proof is in the pudding, all my kids are ahead of kids in public school.  The best teacher could not have done this when they are looking after class sizes of 30 plus students.   


That's not a proof of anything except that the public schools in your area are horrible.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 11:04:18 PM by Heorhij » Logged

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« Reply #112 on: July 12, 2009, 11:11:30 PM »

Do you agree that if you need to have your foot amputated, you go to a doctor? Or not?


Of course, but you don't need a school teacher to teach your kid to read, write, understand math, etc.

YES YOU DO.

And the proof is in the pudding, all my kids are ahead of kids in public school.  The best teacher could not have done this when they are looking after class sizes of 30 plus students.   


That's not a proof of anything except that the public schools in your area are horrible.

Funny, you are starting to argue like a flat earther with their head in the sand.  What don't you understand about the fact that home schoolers test higher on college entrance exams.  It's a fact, it's not opinion.

I'm a Math Major from Vanderbilt.  My wife is a biology major from IU.  We spent years studying curriculum, etc.  To think we can't teach our kids elementary education one on one better than an overworked public school teacher is asinine.
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« Reply #113 on: July 12, 2009, 11:13:00 PM »


 

Yup. Plenty of things can one learn from the internet...

Yup.  Like the wacky Holocaust conspiracy theories going on in another thread.  Lot's of solid info on that on the internet!  Wink
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 11:13:41 PM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #114 on: July 12, 2009, 11:25:02 PM »

Good article on the subject from The Wall Street Journal back in 2000.  Excerpt below on test scores, and the full article is here, http://www.oakmeadow.com/resources/articles/WSJArticle.htm.

"Nonetheless, self-identified home-schoolers have bettered the national averages on the ACT for the past three years running, scoring an average 22.7 last year, compared with 21 for their more traditional peers, on a scale of one to 36. Home-schoolers scored 23.4 in English, well above the 20.5 national average; and 24.4 in reading, compared with a mean of 21.4. The gap was closer in science (21.9 vs. 21.0), and home-schoolers scored below the national average in math, 20.4 to 20.7.

On the SAT, which began its tracking last year, home-schoolers scored an average 1,083 (verbal 548, math 535), 67 points above the national average of 1,016. Similarly, on the 10 SAT2 achievement tests most frequently taken by home-schoolers, they surpassed the national average on nine, including writing, physics and French"

From a Wall Street Journal article by staff writer Daniel Golden
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 11:28:23 PM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #115 on: July 12, 2009, 11:45:42 PM »

Of course, but you don't need a school teacher to teach your kid to read, write, understand math, etc.
And you don't need a blueprint to stack blocks. If, however, you'd like to build a house that won't crush your family, you'd be wise to get someone trained in construction, or else get the training yourself.

Quote
And the proof is in the testing.  Home Schooled children test better on all standardized college entrance tests.
This is neither the thread nor the hour to get involved in a debate on standardized testing, but I will say this: Standardized tests are good for one thing only, and that is to find out who is best at taking that standardized test. They will never be able to tell as much as a trained eye observing a child with all the educational theory to interpret what is seen and the love for that child to desire their success. Teachers teach our children, not tests.
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« Reply #116 on: July 12, 2009, 11:54:37 PM »

We spent years preparing for this, and I'm trained in Math, and my wife is trained in Science.  The only people getting crushed are the overworked teachers with class sizes of 30 plus as school districts cut back and education suffers.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 11:55:26 PM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #117 on: July 12, 2009, 11:59:41 PM »

Of course, but you don't need a school teacher to teach your kid to read, write, understand math, etc.
And you don't need a blueprint to stack blocks. If, however, you'd like to build a house that won't crush your family, you'd be wise to get someone trained in construction, or else get the training yourself.

Quote
And the proof is in the testing.  Home Schooled children test better on all standardized college entrance tests.
This is neither the thread nor the hour to get involved in a debate on standardized testing, but I will say this: Standardized tests are good for one thing only, and that is to find out who is best at taking that standardized test. They will never be able to tell as much as a trained eye observing a child with all the educational theory to interpret what is seen and the love for that child to desire their success. Teachers teach our children, not tests.


I wouldn't argue about what standardized test are good for.  The only reason I brought up tests is that their is no evidence that home schooled children get less of an education than those in public schools.  In fact, their is evidence they do better.

 If their was any objective evidence that home schooled children don't on average do well, it would be posted on this thread and all over the internet and that is what we would be discussing, but that data doesn't exit.  Instead, we get quippy hyperbole about amputated feet and crumbling homes. From educated people no less.
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« Reply #118 on: July 13, 2009, 12:11:02 AM »

I wouldn't argue about what standardized test are good for.  The only reason I brought up tests is that their is no evidence that home schooled children get less of an education than those in public schools.  In fact, their is evidence they do better.
No, there is evidence that home-schooled children are better at taking standardized tests. That does not translate into whether they get a better education.

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Instead, we get quippy hyperbole about amputated feet and crumbling homes. From educated people no less.
Really? You mistake "there" for "their" and analogy for hyperbole. And you purport to be a better teacher than the trained professionals?
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« Reply #119 on: July 13, 2009, 12:21:53 AM »

I wouldn't argue about what standardized test are good for.  The only reason I brought up tests is that their is no evidence that home schooled children get less of an education than those in public schools.  In fact, their is evidence they do better.
No, there is evidence that home-schooled children are better at taking standardized tests. That does not translate into whether they get a better education.

Quote
Instead, we get quippy hyperbole about amputated feet and crumbling homes. From educated people no less.
Really? You mistake "there" for "their" and analogy for hyperbole. And you purport to be a better teacher than the trained professionals?

A typo, criticizing my characterization of your analogy as hyperbole, and a whiny "you're not as smart as you think" remark is all you got! Come on now!  Bring the heat! Shocked

Did you read my post, I agree with what you said about standardized tests.  But since the data exists that home schoolers do better than public school students on standardized tests its worth noting when the academic police start getting threatened and act scandalized by the idea of home schooling.

And nowhere did I say my wife or I were better teachers than trained professionals.  What I said is that my wife and I teaching our children one-on-one can do a better a job than the current state of our schools where teachers are overworked and students are crammed in classrooms.

Rather than think of ways to play "Gotcha", why don't you point me to a study that shows that home schooled children suffer in their education compared to public schooled children.  If you aren't, I'm sure you know a trained professional who can point me to one. Wink

I was skeptical of home schooling when my wife suggested it years ago, but I couldn't find any study that would lead me to believe it wasn't the correct decision for us.
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« Reply #120 on: July 13, 2009, 12:27:40 AM »

the current state of our schools where teachers are overworked and students are crammed in classrooms.
You are mistaken. This is not the current state of our schools. Look here, and you will see that the average class size for Missouri is 18. I don't know what professional would have trouble with that number of kids, which is half of what you purport.

I'm guessing by your username that you live in New Hampshire, and I found data for that state. The average class size there is 17.5-20.5. Hardly crammed.
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« Reply #121 on: July 13, 2009, 12:34:28 AM »

the current state of our schools where teachers are overworked and students are crammed in classrooms.
You are mistaken. This is not the current state of our schools. Look here, and you will see that the average class size for Missouri is 18. I don't know what professional would have trouble with that number of kids, which is half of what you purport.

Great, but I don't live in Missouri. Where I live class sizes average 30 plus. And didn't you just lecture me on what a bad teacher I must be?  The last I looked 18 wasn't half of thirty. Roll Eyes And even with what is a good ratio compared to many other states, your students still score less than home schooled students.  But I'm sure that's not a big deal to you since don't seem to put much credence in standardized tests. Wink
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« Reply #122 on: July 13, 2009, 12:38:47 AM »

the current state of our schools where teachers are overworked and students are crammed in classrooms.
You are mistaken. This is not the current state of our schools. Look here, and you will see that the average class size for Missouri is 18. I don't know what professional would have trouble with that number of kids, which is half of what you purport.

I'm guessing by your username that you live in New Hampshire, and I found data for that state. The average class size there is 17.5-20.5. Hardly crammed.

See, playing gotcha cuts you again!  I don't live in New Hampshire, and I didn't imply the national average was 30.  I said the schools around me are 30 plus because of cutbacks.  Not that is really why we personally decided to homeschool.

And seriously, since you don't like to cram, you can find all kinds of studies on how teachers feel overworked and how many leave the profession because of it. But I'm sure you know that.
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« Reply #123 on: July 13, 2009, 12:41:31 AM »

Great, but I don't live in Missouri. Where I live class sizes average 30 plus. And didn't you just lecture me on what a bad teacher I must be?  The last I looked 18 wasn't half of thirty. Roll Eyes
It's half of "thirty plus." And I have a class of 36 next year, but it's only one. I also have a class of four.

Additionally, you don't state in your profile in what state you live. If you let me know, I can get a whole bunch of data from your state's board of education. Better yet, you can access it yourself. It's freely available, so you don't have to make wild assumptions.

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And even with what is a good ratio compared to many other states, your students still score less than home schooled students.  But I'm sure that's not a big deal to you since don't seem to put much credence in standardized tests.
Nope. I want to know what the kids are learning. And it's been my experience that the home-schooled kids who come to me for high school are quite a bit behind those who went all the way through our school system. A do-it-yourselfer is just not going to match the skills of a highly qualified professional.
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« Reply #124 on: July 13, 2009, 12:53:13 AM »

Great, but I don't live in Missouri. Where I live class sizes average 30 plus. And didn't you just lecture me on what a bad teacher I must be?  The last I looked 18 wasn't half of thirty. Roll Eyes
It's half of "thirty plus." And I have a class of 36 next year, but it's only one. I also have a class of four.

Additionally, you don't state in your profile in what state you live. If you let me know, I can get a whole bunch of data from your state's board of education. Better yet, you can access it yourself. It's freely available, so you don't have to make wild assumptions.

Quote
And even with what is a good ratio compared to many other states, your students still score less than home schooled students.  But I'm sure that's not a big deal to you since don't seem to put much credence in standardized tests.
Nope. I want to know what the kids are learning. And it's been my experience that the home-schooled kids who come to me for high school are quite a bit behind those who went all the way through our school system. A do-it-yourselfer is just not going to match the skills of a highly qualified professional.

Again, I don't think I ever said all classes nationwide were 30 plus, or that was an average(actually, I did say locally it was an average, but I only meant locally where we just had massive cuts which will hopefully be corrected).  But you know as well as I do that that happens, and you prove my point, you have a class of 36 next year.

Finding student/teacher statistics is easy, find me the study that shows home schooled students don't do as well as public schooled ones. And basing your opinion of home schooling on your own personal experience just shows your bias.  But let's assume you are correct and not just biased toward home schooled students, and the ones you come across are behind.  Maybe the fact they are behind is why their parents sent them back to public school, and they were smart enough to recognize they weren't cut out to homeschool.  To broadly characterize home schoolers based on this is obviously flawed. And, I started my posting to this thread by saying people should only home school who are dedicated and committed to doing so.
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« Reply #125 on: July 13, 2009, 12:54:30 AM »

Great, but I don't live in Missouri. Where I live class sizes average 30 plus. And didn't you just lecture me on what a bad teacher I must be?  The last I looked 18 wasn't half of thirty. Roll Eyes
It's half of "thirty plus." And I have a class of 36 next year, but it's only one. I also have a class of four.

Actually, its half of "thirty plus six".  But you know that, you are a trained professional! Wink
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« Reply #126 on: July 13, 2009, 01:05:08 AM »

I don't think I ever said all classes were 30 plus, or that was an average.
Sure you did. You actually quoted it in that post.

Where I live class sizes average 30 plus.

Finding student/teacher statistics is easy, find me the study that shows home schooled students don't do as well as public schooled ones.
I opened up EBSCO and read about halfway through the first article I found before my eyes glazed over. I'll have to answer this one tomorrow.

To broadly characterize home schoolers based on this is obviously a flawed.
It would be if that were the only criterion I were using.

Anyway, it's late now. Like I said, I'll look up EBSCO tomorrow and find you some solid research.
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« Reply #127 on: July 13, 2009, 01:07:11 AM »

I don't think I ever said all classes were 30 plus, or that was an average.
Sure you did. You actually quoted it in that post.

Where I live class sizes average 30 plus.

And I corrected what I meant about one minute after I posted that, but not before you could find another Gotcha' point!
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« Reply #128 on: July 13, 2009, 01:09:28 AM »

Great, but I don't live in Missouri. Where I live class sizes average 30 plus. And didn't you just lecture me on what a bad teacher I must be?  The last I looked 18 wasn't half of thirty. Roll Eyes
It's half of "thirty plus." And I have a class of 36 next year, but it's only one. I also have a class of four.

Actually, its half of "thirty plus six".  But you know that, you are a trained professional! Wink
Hence why I mentioned my class of exactly that number.

I don't think I ever said all classes were 30 plus, or that was an average.
Sure you did. You actually quoted it in that post.

Where I live class sizes average 30 plus.

And I corrected what I meant about one minute after I posted that, but not before you could find another Gotcha' point!
I was already replying and couldn't see your edit. Anyway, it's late. We'll resume this tomorrow.
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« Reply #129 on: July 13, 2009, 01:11:50 AM »

Great, but I don't live in Missouri. Where I live class sizes average 30 plus. And didn't you just lecture me on what a bad teacher I must be?  The last I looked 18 wasn't half of thirty. Roll Eyes
It's half of "thirty plus." And I have a class of 36 next year, but it's only one. I also have a class of four.

Actually, its half of "thirty plus six".  But you know that, you are a trained professional! Wink
Hence why I mentioned my class of exactly that number.

I don't think I ever said all classes were 30 plus, or that was an average.
Sure you did. You actually quoted it in that post.

Where I live class sizes average 30 plus.

And I corrected what I meant about one minute after I posted that, but not before you could find another Gotcha' point!
I was already replying and couldn't see your edit. Anyway, it's late. We'll resume this tomorrow.

That's too bad.  I was getting a laugh imagining you glassy eyed wading through EBSCO looking for studies that prove the folly of home schooling! Wink
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« Reply #130 on: July 13, 2009, 09:32:59 AM »

At least one of the studies posted here mentioned that the average educational attainment and income level of parents who homeschool are notably higher than the national average. That in itself would explain any measurable aggregate advantage homeschooled kids have on test scores, literacy and job success.

I know probably 20 or so adults who were homeschooled as kids. All came from solidly middle class homes with two parents, most of whom had a bachelor's degree or higher. From what I understand of social science, that places these kids in entirely different categories of achievement. Comparing a sub-section of largely middle class students to the public at large isn't going to tell you anything about the efficacy of their schooling; it will tell you about the efficacy of their parenting (and their parent's socio-economic background).
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« Reply #131 on: July 13, 2009, 10:43:59 AM »

At least one of the studies posted here mentioned that the average educational attainment and income level of parents who homeschool are notably higher than the national average. That in itself would explain any measurable aggregate advantage homeschooled kids have on test scores, literacy and job success.

I know probably 20 or so adults who were homeschooled as kids. All came from solidly middle class homes with two parents, most of whom had a bachelor's degree or higher. From what I understand of social science, that places these kids in entirely different categories of achievement. Comparing a sub-section of largely middle class students to the public at large isn't going to tell you anything about the efficacy of their schooling; it will tell you about the efficacy of their parenting (and their parent's socio-economic background).

I would agree.  My position all along is that if you have the means, time and dedication a family can do a great job home schooling their children.  Home schooling is not for everyone, and in my experience with other home school families, your children should be in a public or private school if you are not prepared and dedicated to the responsibility of home schooling your children.  And there is nothing wrong with that, even the worst schools still educate a motivated child and involved parents.

But all the anti-home schooling venom that can get slung around is really puzzling to me.  Something tells me some people fear home schooling, but not because they really think on the whole home schooled children aren't getting educated properly.  It's something else they fear, and it probably differs from person to person.

The good thing is that home schooling is growing, and growing across all sorts of demographics.  Ultimately this competition will make public schools and even private schools better, and that is a good thing for everybody.
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« Reply #132 on: July 15, 2009, 11:51:57 AM »

Since the debate of whether to educate kids through home or public schools continues to be a concern to many, here is a sticky thread in which you may debate the merits and drawbacks of both sides.  This is only for debate on whether homeschool or public school is more effective, not a resource for curriculum or advice.  Thank you and as always, please remain respectful of fellow posters.

-EofK, Family Forum Moderator
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« Reply #133 on: July 15, 2009, 11:58:30 AM »

But all the anti-home schooling venom that can get slung around is really puzzling to me.  Something tells me some people fear home schooling, but not because they really think on the whole home schooled children aren't getting educated properly.  It's something else they fear, and it probably differs from person to person.
Actually, I find just the opposite. I find it's the homeschooling parents who are irrationally afraid, and at least one study seems to support that theory. According to Kennedy and Gust (2005), home-schooling parents are more likely than other parents to be concerned about vaccinations, and are also least likely to have adequate information about vaccines. It should be noted that the sample size of this investigation was limited, and therefore a larger-scale study is highly recommended, but even at the small size, this trend was clearly evident.

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The good thing is that home schooling is growing, and growing across all sorts of demographics.  Ultimately this competition will make public schools and even private schools better, and that is a good thing for everybody.
Unfortunately, according to the available data (Isenberg, 2007), it is growing most rapidly among those making less than $13,000 per year--hardly the sort of environment where children are likely to have even the same access to materials and experiences as in public school, let alone better. In addition, although there is a direct relationship among elementary-age children between the parents' education level and likelihood of being homeschooled, there is no such relationship among adolescents--which is the time at which the parents' education most translates into effectiveness of teaching.

References:
Kennedy, A.M., and Gust, D.A. (2005, September). "Parental Vaccine Beliefs and Child's School Type." Journal of School Health 75(7), pp. 276-280.

Isenberg, E.J. "What Have We Learned About Homeschooling?" Peabody Journal of Education 82(2-3), pp. 387-409.
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« Reply #134 on: July 15, 2009, 01:39:01 PM »

I always thought that homeschooling was dangerous because it could lead to anti social and egocentric tendencies in young people.  Better to send them to a public school where they will be able to interact with kids their own age and learn to get along with eachother.  It is especially bad to expose a child to only one way of doing things, one belief system when they are young because it could create a streak of intolerance in the child in there future dealings of people who are different from them. 

If a parent wants to homeschool then that's great.  I firmly support the right of parents to educate their children as they see fit.  However one cannot deny the negative effects of homeschooling, the worst being the attitudes that develop among the homeschooling parents towards other parents who do not choose to embrace this way of life for their children.

Also, why don't some parents consider putting their children in Catholic parochial schools?  Today most US RC schools are very theologically liberal.  They would not interfere in any way with the Orthodox faith of their students.  Plus there is much good that comes from Parochial schools in the filed of education.
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