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Author Topic: Homeschool VS Public School  (Read 64426 times) Average Rating: 1
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #405 on: April 29, 2013, 06:55:10 PM »

Yeshuaisiam: I want to have it clear: you criticize the Orthodox Church for ecumenism but you also criticize schools that do not allow inter-religious prayers for students, right? Where is the sense in it?

No, that's not what I was saying.

I criticize the Orthodox Church for ecumenism, and criticize public schools (in other countries) for "universal worship". 

I would not want my children praying to a Godhead in "universal prayer".

I believe that we are to "train our children up in the Lord", thus prayer directed towards Christ (in public school).

Of course, this does not matter in the USA as it is forbidden.

You want the schools to have ecumenical prayers to Christ.

I don't have a dog in this fight, we homeschool.  I pretty much detest public school all together.   

But no, I do not believe ecumenical prayers should be said in school, as ecumenism in and of itself defies the canon.  For instance, an EO Christian, it would be a violation to worship along side a Muslim.   That would pit a student against their own faith.   A Muslim, their faith teaches them to kill Christians, so it would be odd the same words spoken to their Christ denied god, to the Trinity.

This is why many in America attend private schools according to their own faith.   Many RC private schools, and oddly... I haven't not seen many EO ones here....  I wish there were.

For public school, I don't have a solution. A group of EO students would not be able to openly pray together.   It's a mess.   I do believe open prayer should be allowed, and groups form.... But it's such a mess, that solution would be like dumping a bucket of paint on a loose gravel road.  It's not going to work or stick.   Our scriptures tell parents to raise their children up in the Lord, yet so many AMERICAN parents send their children to a place where God is not allowed.

I think this is a difficult subject over multiple countries.   Different rules for different places.   Here in America, a girl was expelled for praying before a football game - saying "May God allow everybody to have a safe fun time".

Many many moons ago, I remember writing my first word. (I went to public school)
"CAT"

About 2 months ago, my wife taught our 4 year old daughter her first writing word.
"GOD"

After about an hour she was writing "God made light." It was in Rod & Staff curriculum.

Every single lesson intertwines God, biblical stories into them.  Even the math.
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« Reply #406 on: April 29, 2013, 06:56:25 PM »

The only homeschooled kids in the UK are those whose parents have made such a poor job of socialising them that they can't function in a school environment - and those are overseen by social services and mental health professionals.

First this is untrue. I have several friends who live in the UK. Most in England, but a few in N. Ireland. They have done an amazing job schooling, and more importantly, raising their children. I keep getting smacked in the face by your refusal to educate yourself on the topic before inserting your very forceful opinion.

The bottom line isn't a failing system, crap teachers, corrupt teachers unions, etc. Those are problems, yes. The bottom line is that I can give my children a better education. God gave me these children to raise, and I'm doing what I believe to be the best. I don't care what others do with their children, because THEY are in charge of them. I have no say in how they are raised and educated. I have no opinion because I don't get one. Many of my closest friends have public schooled kids. I don't preach, because that works for their family. All of my cousins have been educated by the public schools, my siblings and I had a mix of public and private. We are the only homeschoolers, and our family is witnessing the fruit.

I take issue with anyone, especially a person who has refused to educate themselves on the topic, telling me how I should do something. Or if I can or cannot do something. It's ludicrous! More and more states are relaxing homeschool laws because it directly correlates with higher test scores and better secondary achievement. In fact, if you bothered to read the very simple data I've posted, homeschoolers are also virtually nonexistent in government assistance programs. You can't deny the efficacy. It is uneducated do-gooders while generally well meaning, but completely mislead, who petition and ultimately legislate against a viable alternative.

Just because our country HAS "free" public education, doesn't mean we should be forced to use it if we can't afford private schooling. Many of our founders were educated by their parents, and they went on to make their very distinguished, and valuable marks on our world.


This has become a pretty active thread. If I am not able to respond as quickly to other posts please forgive me. We have a very busy schedule of services this week at my parish and will be up there preparing quite a bit. Have a beautiful Holy week and Pascha. If I have offended, or been too harsh in my criticism, please forgive me.
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« Reply #407 on: April 29, 2013, 07:01:18 PM »


I have no issues with homeschooling, myself, as long as it is done properly: hire a governess and/or tutor. Teachers don't just waste time in university; they really know more than the parents, even with all the resources that claim to help.

Really? Read the links I posted. You're only proving that your criticism is completely unfounded. Pay specific attention to the graphs showing education level of the parents and money spent per student. If you can't be bothered to brush up on the facts, maybe you should refrain from deciding what constitutes propriety for children who do not belong to you.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

I am a parent and a teacher, thank you very much. Perhaps you need to remind yourself of the fact that other countries can make a much better job of public education than the miserable excuse of a system that your country insists on not reforming.

That is why I specified *other people's children* The miserable system is one of the biggest reason we do homeschool. We can give our children a better education than both public and private school. If faced with the same system, I'm sure you would find the best way to educate your children. The research backs up our decision, and we've sucked it up and we're putting in the hard work. I don't doubt you do what is best for your  children's education, and I'm also sure you have vigorously pursued that route. That's what good parents do. I took umbrage with uneducated assumptions and opinions regarding completely solid and rigorous education. Especially when very simple stats were clearly accessible and easy to read. This was not a personal attack, I was pointing out that no one has the right to dictate propriety to anyone outside of their own children.
Not everyone is happy with the public school system here either. But they don't homeschool - they band together and found community independent schools. The only homeschooled kids in the UK are those whose parents have made such a poor job of socialising them that they can't function in a school environment - and those are overseen by social services and mental health professionals. They're not left to their parents' devices, for obvious reasons.

If the education system is bankrupt, either reform it or abolish it altogether. Jumping ship is not the answer.

Odd, because I just found some UK homeschool groups that meet twice a week with 63 children in one group, and 84 in the second.

Did they state why the children were homeschooled? It's quite unlikely to be a first choice, actually. Mostly it happens if the child has to be pulled out of school due to issues with special needs, mental health or serious bullying, or if the parents travel a lot.

Laura Ingalls Wilder was almost exclusively home schooled.  She had just a couple of years of "public school" where prayer was allowed, and only paid for by the parents who sent their children there.   At 15 she was teaching elementary school.

She went on to become a major American author.

She had way less social resources (way off on the prairies) than my children do.

You may pine for the 1850s, but they're really and truly gone.

I went to public school, in another country, which lacked resources that most western countries take for granted. It didn't stop me studying and learning way beyond what was offered. My husband went to public school - an old-fashioned grammar school, that could afford to be ridiculously selective. School is a springboard for further learning. But having been on both sides of the equation, and having dealt with colleagues with children and with students' parents who happened to be teachers themselves, I can in complete honesty and seriousness assure you that I have never met someone who could be an equally effective parent and teacher to their own kids.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #408 on: April 29, 2013, 10:40:55 PM »


I have no issues with homeschooling, myself, as long as it is done properly: hire a governess and/or tutor. Teachers don't just waste time in university; they really know more than the parents, even with all the resources that claim to help.

Really? Read the links I posted. You're only proving that your criticism is completely unfounded. Pay specific attention to the graphs showing education level of the parents and money spent per student. If you can't be bothered to brush up on the facts, maybe you should refrain from deciding what constitutes propriety for children who do not belong to you.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

I am a parent and a teacher, thank you very much. Perhaps you need to remind yourself of the fact that other countries can make a much better job of public education than the miserable excuse of a system that your country insists on not reforming.

That is why I specified *other people's children* The miserable system is one of the biggest reason we do homeschool. We can give our children a better education than both public and private school. If faced with the same system, I'm sure you would find the best way to educate your children. The research backs up our decision, and we've sucked it up and we're putting in the hard work. I don't doubt you do what is best for your  children's education, and I'm also sure you have vigorously pursued that route. That's what good parents do. I took umbrage with uneducated assumptions and opinions regarding completely solid and rigorous education. Especially when very simple stats were clearly accessible and easy to read. This was not a personal attack, I was pointing out that no one has the right to dictate propriety to anyone outside of their own children.
Not everyone is happy with the public school system here either. But they don't homeschool - they band together and found community independent schools. The only homeschooled kids in the UK are those whose parents have made such a poor job of socialising them that they can't function in a school environment - and those are overseen by social services and mental health professionals. They're not left to their parents' devices, for obvious reasons.

If the education system is bankrupt, either reform it or abolish it altogether. Jumping ship is not the answer.

Odd, because I just found some UK homeschool groups that meet twice a week with 63 children in one group, and 84 in the second.

Did they state why the children were homeschooled? It's quite unlikely to be a first choice, actually. Mostly it happens if the child has to be pulled out of school due to issues with special needs, mental health or serious bullying, or if the parents travel a lot.

Laura Ingalls Wilder was almost exclusively home schooled.  She had just a couple of years of "public school" where prayer was allowed, and only paid for by the parents who sent their children there.   At 15 she was teaching elementary school.

She went on to become a major American author.

She had way less social resources (way off on the prairies) than my children do.

You may pine for the 1850s, but they're really and truly gone.

I went to public school, in another country, which lacked resources that most western countries take for granted. It didn't stop me studying and learning way beyond what was offered. My husband went to public school - an old-fashioned grammar school, that could afford to be ridiculously selective. School is a springboard for further learning. But having been on both sides of the equation, and having dealt with colleagues with children and with students' parents who happened to be teachers themselves, I can in complete honesty and seriousness assure you that I have never met someone who could be an equally effective parent and teacher to their own kids.

All I can say is:
http://www.home-school.com/news/homeschool-vs-public-school.php

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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #409 on: April 29, 2013, 11:06:01 PM »

The only homeschooled kids in the UK are those whose parents have made such a poor job of socialising them that they can't function in a school environment - and those are overseen by social services and mental health professionals.

First this is untrue. I have several friends who live in the UK. Most in England, but a few in N. Ireland. They have done an amazing job schooling, and more importantly, raising their children. I keep getting smacked in the face by your refusal to educate yourself on the topic before inserting your very forceful opinion.

The bottom line isn't a failing system, crap teachers, corrupt teachers unions, etc. Those are problems, yes. The bottom line is that I can give my children a better education. God gave me these children to raise, and I'm doing what I believe to be the best. I don't care what others do with their children, because THEY are in charge of them. I have no say in how they are raised and educated. I have no opinion because I don't get one. Many of my closest friends have public schooled kids. I don't preach, because that works for their family. All of my cousins have been educated by the public schools, my siblings and I had a mix of public and private. We are the only homeschoolers, and our family is witnessing the fruit.

I take issue with anyone, especially a person who has refused to educate themselves on the topic, telling me how I should do something. Or if I can or cannot do something. It's ludicrous! More and more states are relaxing homeschool laws because it directly correlates with higher test scores and better secondary achievement. In fact, if you bothered to read the very simple data I've posted, homeschoolers are also virtually nonexistent in government assistance programs. You can't deny the efficacy. It is uneducated do-gooders while generally well meaning, but completely mislead, who petition and ultimately legislate against a viable alternative.

Just because our country HAS "free" public education, doesn't mean we should be forced to use it if we can't afford private schooling. Many of our founders were educated by their parents, and they went on to make their very distinguished, and valuable marks on our world.


This has become a pretty active thread. If I am not able to respond as quickly to other posts please forgive me. We have a very busy schedule of services this week at my parish and will be up there preparing quite a bit. Have a beautiful Holy week and Pascha. If I have offended, or been too harsh in my criticism, please forgive me.

This person is just passing the rumors of home school.  Does not know any facts about it.

"Poorly socialized"    (photos of homeschool groups)




I can't even stress the great field trips we have been on and how much the children in these types of groups play together.

We have been homeschooling for over a decade, belonged to several groups & co-ops, and I can assure you that many homeschooled children are part of these social groups.   The parents are fantastic teachers, and most use superior curriculum & learning techniques to that of public school.

We have a heavy college turn out in our group.   There are over 140 homeschool groups in Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas.

Each false thing I read is just making me shake my head.... It's seriously like somebody telling you "the grass is purple with glitter --- I'm telling you the grass IS PURPLE with GLITTER!!!".

http://www.aop.com/  <--- That group alone has MORE homeschool students than ANY school district in America.  They are accredited, and a licensed high school.   The difference, the students learn at home.  Some through the internet, some on DVD automated curriculum, and some through book styled.

http://www.milestonebooks.com/item/1-1L8--/?list=Rod_and_Staff_Grade_8  <--- Amish/Mennonite curriculum.  Amish teach their students until 8th grade, Mennonites either 8th or 10th.  This is the stuff we use.  (AOP MORE COMMON)

Even Congressman Ron Paul is making a liberty minded homeschool curriculum, and HIS CHILDREN were homeschooled!!!!  (He has 5 children - 4 of which are medical doctors (one of those doctors is a Senator of the USA (Rand Paul)) and the other is an engineer)

There are so many different types of homeschool curriculums. Often homeschool haters think that people are locking their kids up in their home, sitting with a spiral and pen "making stuff up".

The honest truth is they are socialized very well, often enjoy Christ centered curriculum, and often go on to community colleges or major universities.   The parents are very dedicated to their children's education.   Not this week but next Wednesday, is an art museum field trip with the homeschool group.   ugg sorry, just gotta defend.

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« Reply #410 on: April 30, 2013, 12:30:33 AM »

We are in the same area. We will be supplementing heavily with Orthodox and Mennonite materials as the need arises. Penmanship? Lets copy from the Psalter. Reading? Lets see what St. John Cassian has to say about xyz. Many, many of my dearest friends have traveled this road. Thank God our state lets us educate the way we see fit.

I'm dumbfounded by the intentional ignorance. I'm able to give my kids an education far better than those I cannot afford, AND give them a solid grasp on our faith and the world from an Orthodox mindset. To top it off, they're here and they're cultivating a solid work ethic from studies and helping with the family farm. They aren't tied to a desk all day. My daughter was running laps in our east pasture because she just needed a break and wanted to move. Then it is right back in and get down to business learning to write. My kids would miss out on so much if we didn't take charge of their education. You also can't beat field trips in the middle of the week with out the crowds, the kids get the undivided attention of the staff and end up really getting more out of it.
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« Reply #411 on: April 30, 2013, 12:32:39 AM »

I recognize two kiddos from the bottom photo. Emelie and Kenny, their mother is a sweet blogger from the Huntsville area I think. I don't see their other sister, though.
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« Reply #412 on: April 30, 2013, 04:18:32 PM »

We are in the same area. We will be supplementing heavily with Orthodox and Mennonite materials as the need arises. Penmanship? Lets copy from the Psalter. Reading? Lets see what St. John Cassian has to say about xyz. Many, many of my dearest friends have traveled this road. Thank God our state lets us educate the way we see fit.

I'm dumbfounded by the intentional ignorance. I'm able to give my kids an education far better than those I cannot afford, AND give them a solid grasp on our faith and the world from an Orthodox mindset. To top it off, they're here and they're cultivating a solid work ethic from studies and helping with the family farm. They aren't tied to a desk all day. My daughter was running laps in our east pasture because she just needed a break and wanted to move. Then it is right back in and get down to business learning to write. My kids would miss out on so much if we didn't take charge of their education. You also can't beat field trips in the middle of the week with out the crowds, the kids get the undivided attention of the staff and end up really getting more out of it.

Exactly.

We can go on a field trip on a wild whim and learn a lot of stuff.   We were learning about Texas history and the Alamo in my daughter's 7th grade lessons.

So we got a wild idea....

We called up Guadalupe State Park, made a tent reservation for 1 night, and took the children down to San Antonio and they got to see the Alamo..... Just like that.  They got to see all the displays, learn about Sam Houston and his routes through Texas, see Davy Crockett's journal, musket, etc.  Pretty awesome stuff.

The next day, we came home (after a fantastic lunch of River Walk Mexican food).   On the trip home, the children did other assignments... But first we stopped in Austin at the State Capital for an hour... Then we stopped in Waco to see the Branch Dividian grounds (kind of weird but oh well).

You just can't beat that.

Soon we are planning a trip out to Gettysburg to see the battle grounds.  We travel on the cheap. Wink
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« Reply #413 on: April 30, 2013, 04:32:25 PM »

Yeshuaisiam, I am impressed. Sounds like you're doing a great job.
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« Reply #414 on: April 30, 2013, 09:33:06 PM »

Yeshuaisiam, I am impressed. Sounds like you're doing a great job.

Thank you, we try very hard.  It's a huge dedication and an enormous amount of personal sacrifice... of course its a sacrifice of love....

To hear a child read to you the first time, where you "know they are getting it", its a very wonderful experience.  Something I think all parents should experience.  Smiley
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« Reply #415 on: April 30, 2013, 09:51:56 PM »

Yeshuaisiam, I am impressed. Sounds like you're doing a great job.

Thank you, we try very hard.  It's a huge dedication and an enormous amount of personal sacrifice... of course its a sacrifice of love....

To hear a child read to you the first time, where you "know they are getting it", its a very wonderful experience.  Something I think all parents should experience.  Smiley


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« Reply #416 on: May 01, 2013, 03:37:52 PM »


In America, open prayer is NOT permitted.


There is no law prohibiting students from praying in school. In fact, when I was in High School, we began every day with a moment of "silence", which I used to say a quick prayer. It is even permissible for a teacher to lead prayer provided it is in a voluntary setting. i.e. after school clubs.
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« Reply #417 on: May 01, 2013, 03:50:28 PM »

My old school used to begin and end every schoolday with a prayer. Every day started with readings from the Scriptures. But that was from Kindergarten to 7nd Grade. My high school doesn't have that, though.
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« Reply #418 on: May 01, 2013, 03:52:31 PM »

My old school used to begin and end every schoolday with a prayer. Every day started with readings from the Scriptures. But that was from Kindergarten to 7nd Grade. My high school doesn't have that, though.

Did you go to a private and/or parochial school?
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« Reply #419 on: May 01, 2013, 03:54:04 PM »

My old school used to begin and end every schoolday with a prayer. Every day started with readings from the Scriptures. But that was from Kindergarten to 7nd Grade. My high school doesn't have that, though.

Did you go to a private and/or parochial school?

Nope. A state financed school. Not connected with a parish or anything.
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« Reply #420 on: May 01, 2013, 03:55:39 PM »

My old school used to begin and end every schoolday with a prayer. Every day started with readings from the Scriptures. But that was from Kindergarten to 7nd Grade. My high school doesn't have that, though.

Did you go to a private and/or parochial school?

Nope. A state financed school. Not connected with a parish or anything.

I take it then neither the ACLU nor their ilk are a factor in The Low Countries?
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« Reply #421 on: May 01, 2013, 04:00:36 PM »

My old school used to begin and end every schoolday with a prayer. Every day started with readings from the Scriptures. But that was from Kindergarten to 7nd Grade. My high school doesn't have that, though.

Did you go to a private and/or parochial school?

Nope. A state financed school. Not connected with a parish or anything.

I take it then neither the ACLU nor their ilk are a factor in The Low Countries?

Nope. Good huh?
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« Reply #422 on: May 01, 2013, 04:04:40 PM »

My old school used to begin and end every schoolday with a prayer. Every day started with readings from the Scriptures. But that was from Kindergarten to 7nd Grade. My high school doesn't have that, though.

Did you go to a private and/or parochial school?

Nope. A state financed school. Not connected with a parish or anything.

I take it then neither the ACLU nor their ilk are a factor in The Low Countries?

Nope. Good huh?

The ACLU? Meh. They have their uses but they definitely like to take stuff to the extremes.
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« Reply #423 on: May 01, 2013, 04:06:33 PM »

My old school used to begin and end every schoolday with a prayer. Every day started with readings from the Scriptures. But that was from Kindergarten to 7nd Grade. My high school doesn't have that, though.

Did you go to a private and/or parochial school?

Nope. A state financed school. Not connected with a parish or anything.

I take it then neither the ACLU nor their ilk are a factor in The Low Countries?

Nope. Good huh?

The ACLU? Meh. They have their uses but they definitely like to take stuff to the extremes.

No, I meant that it is good that they and their ideological allies can't stop school prayers here.
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« Reply #424 on: May 01, 2013, 04:09:06 PM »

My old school used to begin and end every schoolday with a prayer. Every day started with readings from the Scriptures. But that was from Kindergarten to 7nd Grade. My high school doesn't have that, though.

Did you go to a private and/or parochial school?

Nope. A state financed school. Not connected with a parish or anything.

I take it then neither the ACLU nor their ilk are a factor in The Low Countries?

Nope. Good huh?

The ACLU? Meh. They have their uses but they definitely like to take stuff to the extremes.

No, I meant that it is good that they and their ideological allies can't stop school prayers here.

Haha, whoops.  Cheesy
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« Reply #425 on: May 01, 2013, 04:10:48 PM »

My old school used to begin and end every schoolday with a prayer. Every day started with readings from the Scriptures. But that was from Kindergarten to 7nd Grade. My high school doesn't have that, though.

Did you go to a private and/or parochial school?

Nope. A state financed school. Not connected with a parish or anything.

I take it then neither the ACLU nor their ilk are a factor in The Low Countries?

Nope. Good huh?

The ACLU? Meh. They have their uses but they definitely like to take stuff to the extremes.

No, I meant that it is good that they and their ideological allies can't stop school prayers here.

Haha, whoops.  Cheesy

Doesn't matter. My posts can be obscure  Smiley
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« Reply #426 on: May 01, 2013, 05:11:10 PM »


In America, open prayer is NOT permitted.


There is no law prohibiting students from praying in school. In fact, when I was in High School, we began every day with a moment of "silence", which I used to say a quick prayer. It is even permissible for a teacher to lead prayer provided it is in a voluntary setting. i.e. after school clubs.
Ah, the good old days.

Of course there is no law, but since when has that stop persecution?  Have you read about the hate filled pseudo atheists who want Christians in the military court-martialed and sent to prison just for talking about Jesus?  They liked the experience to rape.  They are idiots, but so are a lot of other people.   
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« Reply #427 on: May 01, 2013, 09:39:27 PM »


In America, open prayer is NOT permitted.


There is no law prohibiting students from praying in school. In fact, when I was in High School, we began every day with a moment of "silence", which I used to say a quick prayer. It is even permissible for a teacher to lead prayer provided it is in a voluntary setting. i.e. after school clubs.

Actually this is not correct.  Open prayer led by any teacher is not permitted.
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« Reply #428 on: May 01, 2013, 10:42:14 PM »

In America, open prayer is NOT permitted.
Quote
It is even permissible for a teacher to lead prayer provided it is in a voluntary setting. i.e. after school clubs.
Quote
Actually this is not correct.  Open prayer led by any teacher is not permitted.

Obviously you are an expert on this yeshuaisiam. I am not. However, given how the sentence is written, you statement is hard to believe. I would appreciate it if you could show me the law that prevents teachers from leading prayers in an after school setting as part of a school club. There is no indication that this is occurring at the school as far as I can tell but I would think that is OK as well.

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« Reply #429 on: May 02, 2013, 09:09:45 AM »

Ah, the good old days.

That was less than 3 years ago.

Of course there is no law, but since when has that stop persecution?  Have you read about the hate filled pseudo atheists who want Christians in the military court-martialed and sent to prison just for talking about Jesus?  They liked the experience to rape.  They are idiots, but so are a lot of other people.   

Huh Not really relevant to this discussion and the only source is questionable at best. Besides, when has persecution stopped Christianity before?

Actually this is not correct.  Open prayer led by any teacher is not permitted.

You calling me a Liar? My high school had FCA (Fellowship of Christian Athletes) meetings every Friday morning before classes started and prayers, though mostly student led, they would often be led by the teachers who sponsored the group as well. There were also Jewish student groups and Muslim Student groups whose teachers organised prayers for them as well.
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« Reply #430 on: May 02, 2013, 01:42:17 PM »

Here is a decent overview on what is generally allowed/not allowed in the US.  Schools differ by practice, but if a lawsuit was brought, this is generally how it would be ruled upon.

http://archive.adl.org/religion_ps_2004/prayer.asp
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« Reply #431 on: May 02, 2013, 02:06:30 PM »

Is the American Constitution really that atheistic that it bans school prayer?
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« Reply #432 on: May 02, 2013, 02:08:43 PM »

I wouldn't say the Constitution is, I would say the court rulings interpreting the Constitution over the last 40-50 years have been.
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« Reply #433 on: May 02, 2013, 02:11:02 PM »

I wouldn't say the Constitution is, I would say the court rulings interpreting the Constitution over the last 40-50 years have been.

Well, what article of the constitution bans school prayer?
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« Reply #434 on: May 02, 2013, 02:13:32 PM »

I wouldn't say the Constitution is, I would say the court rulings interpreting the Constitution over the last 40-50 years have been.

Well, what article of the constitution bans school prayer?

It is referring to the Supreme Court Rulings which have interpreted it in that way.
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« Reply #435 on: May 02, 2013, 02:15:03 PM »

I wouldn't say the Constitution is, I would say the court rulings interpreting the Constitution over the last 40-50 years have been.

Well, what article of the constitution bans school prayer?

It is referring to the Supreme Court Rulings which have interpreted it in that way.

I wonder what article is being interpreted in that sense.
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« Reply #436 on: May 02, 2013, 02:15:45 PM »

This is what the Constitution says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

It has been argued that allowing any prayer is establishing a religion.
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« Reply #437 on: May 02, 2013, 02:19:13 PM »

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I think that the US Supreme Court should read the underlined part.

It has been argued that allowing any prayer is establishing a religion.

The next step: allowing a religion is establishing one?
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« Reply #438 on: May 02, 2013, 02:24:58 PM »

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I think that the US Supreme Court should read the underlined part.

That has been vigorously argued in the courts.  The decision was that it is acceptable to prohibit individuals free exercise if they are acting as agents of the government which teachers are.  I don't agree with it, but it is the reality that we live in.  Because of that, the homeschool movement is quite popular in the US.
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« Reply #439 on: May 02, 2013, 02:30:56 PM »

I wouldn't say the Constitution is, I would say the court rulings interpreting the Constitution over the last 40-50 years have been.

Are these the same people who threaten to have an apoplexy if someone suggests that the US is not a Christian nation? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #440 on: May 02, 2013, 02:34:06 PM »

No one has ever accused the US of being consistent.  laugh
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« Reply #441 on: May 02, 2013, 02:36:43 PM »

No one has ever accused the US of being consistent.  laugh

All gods forbid. Cheesy
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« Reply #442 on: May 02, 2013, 11:06:32 PM »

Is the American Constitution really that atheistic that it bans school prayer?

No.  Only the interpretation of people who cant read.
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« Reply #443 on: May 05, 2013, 07:09:59 PM »

In America, open prayer is NOT permitted.
Quote
It is even permissible for a teacher to lead prayer provided it is in a voluntary setting. i.e. after school clubs.
Quote
Actually this is not correct.  Open prayer led by any teacher is not permitted.

Obviously you are an expert on this yeshuaisiam. I am not. However, given how the sentence is written, you statement is hard to believe. I would appreciate it if you could show me the law that prevents teachers from leading prayers in an after school setting as part of a school club. There is no indication that this is occurring at the school as far as I can tell but I would think that is OK as well.



Here's a story from today:
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/texas-teen-points-heavens-gets-4-100-relay-181303156.html

From the ADL web site: General Rule: Organized prayer in the public school setting, whether in the classroom or at a school-sponsored event, is unconstitutional. The only type of prayer that is constitutionally permissible is private, voluntary student prayer that does not interfere with the school's educational mission.

Prayer led by teachers in public school is considered "unconstitutional".   There have been teachers fired for it.

I quoted many verses in scripture above showing that God obviously wants our children to be raised overflowing with his words & the words of the scriptures.  Also the scriptures point to parents a lot, in training them.
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« Reply #444 on: May 05, 2013, 07:28:48 PM »

Ah, the good old days.

That was less than 3 years ago.

Of course there is no law, but since when has that stop persecution?  Have you read about the hate filled pseudo atheists who want Christians in the military court-martialed and sent to prison just for talking about Jesus?  They liked the experience to rape.  They are idiots, but so are a lot of other people.   

Huh Not really relevant to this discussion and the only source is questionable at best. Besides, when has persecution stopped Christianity before?

Actually this is not correct.  Open prayer led by any teacher is not permitted.

You calling me a Liar? My high school had FCA (Fellowship of Christian Athletes) meetings every Friday morning before classes started and prayers, though mostly student led, they would often be led by the teachers who sponsored the group as well. There were also Jewish student groups and Muslim Student groups whose teachers organised prayers for them as well.

Not correct and liar are two different things.  In America, teachers get in huge trouble for this, and have by court order been disallowed to pray openly or lead students in prayer.

http://www.msnewsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=12550194
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/teach_devout_kicked_out_kcSdgrrk2I6CA40Ue3kBUO
UK - http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/teach_devout_kicked_out_kcSdgrrk2I6CA40Ue3kBUO
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/30/nyregion/furor-over-school-prayer-stuns-a-fired-teacher.html

Supreme court ruling:
Engel v. Vitale, 82 S. Ct. 1261 (1962)
Any kind of prayer, composed by public school districts, even nondenominational prayer, is unconstitutional government sponsorship of religion.


So basically God/prayer to God/faith is NOT allowed in public school.

Our scriptures tell us in so many places to raise our children in God's word, ways, and commands.  This can't be done at public school. 
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« Reply #445 on: May 05, 2013, 07:50:56 PM »


Not correct and liar are two different things.  In America, teachers get in huge trouble for this, and have by court order been disallowed to pray openly or lead students in prayer.

http://www.msnewsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=12550194
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/teach_devout_kicked_out_kcSdgrrk2I6CA40Ue3kBUO
UK - http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/teach_devout_kicked_out_kcSdgrrk2I6CA40Ue3kBUO
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/30/nyregion/furor-over-school-prayer-stuns-a-fired-teacher.html

Supreme court ruling:
Engel v. Vitale, 82 S. Ct. 1261 (1962)
Any kind of prayer, composed by public school districts, even nondenominational prayer, is unconstitutional government sponsorship of religion.

So basically God/prayer to God/faith is NOT allowed in public school.

Our scriptures tell us in so many places to raise our children in God's word, ways, and commands.  This can't be done at public school. 

Not allowing prayers during class sessions and not allowing faith in public schools are two different things. Those links refer to the former. As for the latter, you can still pray openly in a voluntary, non-class setting in a public school.
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« Reply #446 on: May 06, 2013, 05:42:08 AM »

(1) Ah, the good old days.

That was less than 3 years ago.

(2) Of course there is no law, but since when has that stop persecution?  Have you read about the hate filled pseudo atheists who want Christians in the military court-martialed and sent to prison just for talking about Jesus?  They liked the experience to rape.  They are idiots, but so are a lot of other people.   

Huh Not really relevant to this discussion and the only source is questionable at best. Besides, when has persecution stopped Christianity before?

(3) Actually this is not correct.  Open prayer led by any teacher is not permitted.

You calling me a Liar? My high school had FCA (Fellowship of Christian Athletes) meetings every Friday morning before classes started and prayers, though mostly student led, they would often be led by the teachers who sponsored the group as well. There were also Jewish student groups and Muslim Student groups whose teachers organised prayers for them as well.

(1) Sarcasm.  As in, what you suggest is not the norm any longer.
(2) Ok, ignore it if you wish.  Many people do and that is why it succeeds.  Speaking of relevance, what is the second part of your post?
(3) Liar?  Perhaps less thinned skin and more appreciation for what is being said is in order, but that is up to you.  Disingenuous perhaps, but not a liar.  You know very well what is being spoken of and you ignore that.  Also, this is not the norm, but what does that matter as long as you win the argument.
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« Reply #447 on: May 06, 2013, 05:42:48 AM »

Is the American Constitution really that atheistic that it bans school prayer?

No.  The Constitution isn't the problem.
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« Reply #448 on: May 06, 2013, 05:44:44 AM »


Not correct and liar are two different things.  In America, teachers get in huge trouble for this, and have by court order been disallowed to pray openly or lead students in prayer.

http://www.msnewsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=12550194
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/teach_devout_kicked_out_kcSdgrrk2I6CA40Ue3kBUO
UK - http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/teach_devout_kicked_out_kcSdgrrk2I6CA40Ue3kBUO
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/30/nyregion/furor-over-school-prayer-stuns-a-fired-teacher.html

Supreme court ruling:
Engel v. Vitale, 82 S. Ct. 1261 (1962)
Any kind of prayer, composed by public school districts, even nondenominational prayer, is unconstitutional government sponsorship of religion.

So basically God/prayer to God/faith is NOT allowed in public school.

Our scriptures tell us in so many places to raise our children in God's word, ways, and commands.  This can't be done at public school. 

Not allowing prayers during class sessions and not allowing faith in public schools are two different things. Those links refer to the former. As for the latter, you can still pray openly in a voluntary, non-class setting in a public school.


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« Reply #449 on: May 06, 2013, 01:59:43 PM »


Not correct and liar are two different things.  In America, teachers get in huge trouble for this, and have by court order been disallowed to pray openly or lead students in prayer.

http://www.msnewsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=12550194
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/teach_devout_kicked_out_kcSdgrrk2I6CA40Ue3kBUO
UK - http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/teach_devout_kicked_out_kcSdgrrk2I6CA40Ue3kBUO
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/30/nyregion/furor-over-school-prayer-stuns-a-fired-teacher.html

Supreme court ruling:
Engel v. Vitale, 82 S. Ct. 1261 (1962)
Any kind of prayer, composed by public school districts, even nondenominational prayer, is unconstitutional government sponsorship of religion.

So basically God/prayer to God/faith is NOT allowed in public school.

Our scriptures tell us in so many places to raise our children in God's word, ways, and commands.  This can't be done at public school.  

Not allowing prayers during class sessions and not allowing faith in public schools are two different things. Those links refer to the former. As for the latter, you can still pray openly in a voluntary, non-class setting in a public school.


The scriptures say "train up your children in the lord", "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge".

So during class, they can't train up children in the Lord, or even get the beginning of knowledge.

Because God is frankly not allowed in the class room or for any public school teacher to lead in prayer.   The "faith in public school" you mentioned is subjective, but no teacher or any employee can lead any type of prayer at all.  

This is not the guidance that the scriptures suggested.  I've posted many scriptures on this already.
It's not just prayer either.

My children get English lessons using the scriptures.
In public school, they learn English from stuff like Beowulf.

***also, the links were not just about prayer in school classes.  One was extra curricular where people were in trouble for acts of faith. (Pointing to heaven).
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