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Author Topic: Homeschool VS Public School  (Read 63666 times) Average Rating: 1
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« Reply #225 on: July 21, 2009, 02:15:45 PM »

George I will reply to your personal query as time allows. I am training a new attendant for my sn daughter as well as attending to my father in the hospital...summer was only supposed to be busy during June!

As far as 'sheltering' goes, I disagree with you. Surprise!  If we are talking pure academics alone, then there is no logical purposeful need for peer pressure. Boys trying to get into girls pants, smoking, drugs, cliques, teacher ignorance or anything else BUT academics. Do we want competent, knowledgeable people that are capable of free thinking? Or do we want beings only marginally educated enough to man the factories? My dd doesn't NEED to have boys chasing her, girls treating her like dirt, and teachers deciding to write her off for personal agendas in order to be intelligent. In fact those types of things would be counterproductive to academic achievement. Those things don't make a person stronger, they are distractions at the very best. Our children are not short adults, they are vulnerable, malleable formable beings ready to take on knowledge. Ought we not be careful what that knowledge actually is? Should the knowledge we impart have any political agenda behind it, or should our motives in educating the next generation be unadulterated? Do 12yo kids REALLY need to know how to put condoms on cucumbers or how their lesbian coach parties on the weekends? I suggest not, school should be about academic education without any deterrents to getting the best education possible. The world isn't going anywhere, and its sure not getting better or more pure. It will be there waiting to devour my children when they are adults, preparing them to withstand the onslaught comes well before adulthood. Just as we don't put out our young seedling transplants until they are strong enough to withstand the elements.
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« Reply #226 on: July 21, 2009, 02:53:47 PM »

As far as 'sheltering' goes, I disagree with you. Surprise!  If we are talking pure academics alone, then there is no logical purposeful need for peer pressure. Boys trying to get into girls pants, smoking, drugs, cliques, teacher ignorance or anything else BUT academics.

But that's only one side of school education, the negative one. There is the other side: learning experience, social experience, maturation, training of the will, understanding good and evil, learning about different people... Home education does not give that...


Do we want competent, knowledgeable people that are capable of free thinking? Or do we want beings only marginally educated enough to man the factories?

Factories are all outsourced to China. Marginally educated people man the banks, insurance companies, government agencies, sometimes even the White House... Smiley

My dd doesn't NEED to have boys chasing her, girls treating her like dirt, and teachers deciding to write her off for personal agendas in order to be intelligent. In fact those types of things would be counterproductive to academic achievement. Those things don't make a person stronger, they are distractions at the very best.

That's exactly what I think is questionable. It is bad, I agree, but those things may indeed make a child or an adolescent stronger. Like I said, the very many negatives of my daughter's public school did, in fact, make her much stronger. And me, too...

Our children are not short adults, they are vulnerable, malleable formable beings ready to take on knowledge. Ought we not be careful what that knowledge actually is? Should the knowledge we impart have any political agenda behind it, or should our motives in educating the next generation be unadulterated? Do 12yo kids REALLY need to know how to put condoms on cucumbers or how their lesbian coach parties on the weekends? I suggest not, school should be about academic education without any deterrents to getting the best education possible. The world isn't going anywhere, and its sure not getting better or more pure. It will be there waiting to devour my children when they are adults, preparing them to withstand the onslaught comes well before adulthood. Just as we don't put out our young seedling transplants until they are strong enough to withstand the elements.

But then they will go to college, and... ?
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« Reply #227 on: July 21, 2009, 03:01:02 PM »

But then they will go to college, and... ?

They won't even survive frosh week... Tongue
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« Reply #228 on: July 21, 2009, 03:02:07 PM »

I think we are harder to mold & shape when in college. It's a very formative part of our life, but we pretty much choose what to believe at this point, early on in life I think children take what their told and trust it almost w/o much question.
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« Reply #229 on: July 21, 2009, 03:19:30 PM »

The 6 or 7 home-schooled children that I've observed who have had to enter public education near the end of their Secondary education have, without exception, done better than their peers in every subject save possibly one (if the child was not strong in a subject like mathematics or biology, etc.).  What is remarkable is that this sort of performance is a better barometer of where the child actually is - since they haven't learned the "tricks" to getting good grades in subjects that they have little aptitude in, WYSIWYG, versus the (at least) couple of handfuls of class- and school-mates who had mastered the art of educated guessing on standardized and Multiple-Choice tests, and thus got better grades in subjects than what they truly deserved.

Disclaimer: all the aforementioned home-schooled children were taught by parents who had at least an undergraduate degree in Education.
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« Reply #230 on: July 21, 2009, 03:29:45 PM »

I would like to comment on one thing cleveland just said...

Students these days are near-masters at getting through subjects without having to learn anything. We know how to do homework & study (or not study) soley to get a good grade, and not necessarily to learn the material.

Here in college, I find most normal classes to be extremely easy because I apply the natural student "skills" that I have gotten from high school. I know how to do the minimum or near-minimum and do it to where I still get a good grade. However for me, this serves a purpose as I actually focus my learning on my architectural classes instead of trying to learn architecture plus any other courses I'm taking (like Sociology, Government, Math, Religion, etc...).

I don't know about homeschooling as I never experienced... But I will say that public school conditions us for bare-minimum standards, do it to get at least a "C", find an easy & quick way out, and always think inside of the box kind of mentality.

It also sets up some for failure, as not all can/should attend college. Yet that is expected for every high schooler (whether it's said or not). IMO our schools don't encourage industry/manufacturing, down & dirty jobs as the idea of being successful. We especially set up those in the inner-citys up for failure, as we don't change our system to fit the culture & society that is present there. (which is VASTLY different from suburban schools/culture and even rural schools/culture)
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« Reply #231 on: July 21, 2009, 03:48:03 PM »

I would like to comment on one thing cleveland just said...

Students these days are near-masters at getting through subjects without having to learn anything. We know how to do homework & study (or not study) soley to get a good grade, and not necessarily to learn the material.

Here in college, I find most normal classes to be extremely easy because I apply the natural student "skills" that I have gotten from high school. I know how to do the minimum or near-minimum and do it to where I still get a good grade. However for me, this serves a purpose as I actually focus my learning on my architectural classes instead of trying to learn architecture plus any other courses I'm taking (like Sociology, Government, Math, Religion, etc...).

I don't know about homeschooling as I never experienced... But I will say that public school conditions us for bare-minimum standards, do it to get at least a "C", find an easy & quick way out, and always think inside of the box kind of mentality.

I agree, to a degree.  But I think people in general are just lazy and prefer the inside the box mentality whether it is in school or at work.  Besides personal goals, there is no reason to strive for high marks when a pass is a pass.  A degree is a degree, very few people are going to ask for your transcript.  Maximising our grades while minimising our workload just makes sense for the vast majority, who are not worrying about merit-based scholarships or potential graduate school.

I've studied with homeschooled kids, worked with homeschooled kids, and taught homeschooled kids, and very little about their past matters once they hit post-secondary.  A few will do amazing, most will do average, and a chunk will fail; just like everyone else.  I just haven't seen an academic or sociological (ew, soft sciences) benefit to it.  But maybe the prodigy cases don't enter Computers and Mathematics.  Tongue

Personally, I think this is more culturally based rather than home school vs. public school.  I know in my field, if you want to get to the top of it, you either go abroad (especially Japan and several European countries), or you head to the States and work for DARPA.  We don't like to work for our success over here, we want things handed to us... and it is getting worse.
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« Reply #232 on: July 21, 2009, 03:52:20 PM »

The 6 or 7 home-schooled children that I've observed who have had to enter public education near the end of their Secondary education have, without exception, done better than their peers in every subject save possibly one (if the child was not strong in a subject like mathematics or biology, etc.).  What is remarkable is that this sort of performance is a better barometer of where the child actually is - since they haven't learned the "tricks" to getting good grades in subjects that they have little aptitude in, WYSIWYG, versus the (at least) couple of handfuls of class- and school-mates who had mastered the art of educated guessing on standardized and Multiple-Choice tests, and thus got better grades in subjects than what they truly deserved.

Disclaimer: all the aforementioned home-schooled children were taught by parents who had at least an undergraduate degree in Education.

Oh, but that's a special case, degree in Education... Still a kind of deprivation from the social aspects of learning; but at least there is some hope that the foundations are laid professionally...
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« Reply #233 on: July 21, 2009, 04:13:53 PM »

Oh, but that's a special case, degree in Education... Still a kind of deprivation from the social aspects of learning; but at least there is some hope that the foundations are laid professionally... 

I actually think most home-school families address this directly by co-oping for at least part of the education(very common), involving them in local learning activities (based out of libraries and the like), and having their children participate in many extra-curricular local activities (sports, etc.).  Granted, I won't make much of an apology for anyone who homeschools and does a poor job of it; but I won't hold them up as the problems with home-schooling, just as I won't hold up problem parents who don't support their childrens' education as the flaws with the public educational system.
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« Reply #234 on: July 21, 2009, 04:34:08 PM »

The 6 or 7 home-schooled children that I've observed who have had to enter public education near the end of their Secondary education have, without exception, done better than their peers in every subject save possibly one (if the child was not strong in a subject like mathematics or biology, etc.).  What is remarkable is that this sort of performance is a better barometer of where the child actually is - since they haven't learned the "tricks" to getting good grades in subjects that they have little aptitude in, WYSIWYG, versus the (at least) couple of handfuls of class- and school-mates who had mastered the art of educated guessing on standardized and Multiple-Choice tests, and thus got better grades in subjects than what they truly deserved.

Disclaimer: all the aforementioned home-schooled children were taught by parents who had at least an undergraduate degree in Education.

Oh, but that's a special case, degree in Education... Still a kind of deprivation from the social aspects of learning; but at least there is some hope that the foundations are laid professionally...

I think the reason that you have such reservation about homeschooling is that you are going under a false assumption. Namely you assume that in everything a "professional" teacher is better at helping students to learn than a parent. Here's where your logic is faulty. Professional educators (those with degrees in education) Do not necessarily know how to teach students better than a parent. People who have degrees in education don't have degrees in every academic discipline they teach, most have degrees in none. So if I have a degree in education but I passed all my math classes with Cs in High School and only took the bare minimum in college, am I really prepared enough to teach the topics to someone else? Another good example, in my profession, the highest certification you can receive is a CPA designation (Certified Public Accountant) the pass rate for this test generally stands at about 49% of all applicants. That being said, I can show you a large number of CPAs who know very little if anything about Accounting short of maybe the basics and whatever subset their particular job focuses on. Just because you have this designation doesn't mean you know everything there is to know about accounting. Much the same just because you have an education degree doesn't mean you know everything or even anything about Language Arts or Biology or Chemistry or Math or Reading or...... on and on.

-Nick
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« Reply #235 on: July 21, 2009, 04:58:41 PM »

The 6 or 7 home-schooled children that I've observed who have had to enter public education near the end of their Secondary education have, without exception, done better than their peers in every subject save possibly one (if the child was not strong in a subject like mathematics or biology, etc.).  What is remarkable is that this sort of performance is a better barometer of where the child actually is - since they haven't learned the "tricks" to getting good grades in subjects that they have little aptitude in, WYSIWYG, versus the (at least) couple of handfuls of class- and school-mates who had mastered the art of educated guessing on standardized and Multiple-Choice tests, and thus got better grades in subjects than what they truly deserved.

Disclaimer: all the aforementioned home-schooled children were taught by parents who had at least an undergraduate degree in Education.

Oh, but that's a special case, degree in Education... Still a kind of deprivation from the social aspects of learning; but at least there is some hope that the foundations are laid professionally...

I think the reason that you have such reservation about homeschooling is that you are going under a false assumption. Namely you assume that in everything a "professional" teacher is better at helping students to learn than a parent. Here's where your logic is faulty. Professional educators (those with degrees in education) Do not necessarily know how to teach students better than a parent. People who have degrees in education don't have degrees in every academic discipline they teach, most have degrees in none. So if I have a degree in education but I passed all my math classes with Cs in High School and only took the bare minimum in college, am I really prepared enough to teach the topics to someone else? Another good example, in my profession, the highest certification you can receive is a CPA designation (Certified Public Accountant) the pass rate for this test generally stands at about 49% of all applicants. That being said, I can show you a large number of CPAs who know very little if anything about Accounting short of maybe the basics and whatever subset their particular job focuses on. Just because you have this designation doesn't mean you know everything there is to know about accounting. Much the same just because you have an education degree doesn't mean you know everything or even anything about Language Arts or Biology or Chemistry or Math or Reading or...... on and on.

-Nick

Nick, I actually agree with this! But when we are talking about teaching math to small children (6-10), I guess the most important thing is to know HOW to teach mathematical concepts to these young ones. Same thing language, humanities, art. You don't have to be a super-class mathematician or linguist or historian or artist, but you absolutely must know pedagogy, all these complex things related to child psychology, peculiarities of the learning by children, etc. In fact, I regret that I never studied pedagogy, and I think that I would be better of as a teacher even when dealing with young adults (especially freshmen). That's why I tried to organize, at our university, a workshop called "Teaching Methodologies." Unfortunately, it worked only one year, but I still learned quite a bit about Piaget, Vygotsky etc.
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« Reply #236 on: July 21, 2009, 09:05:40 PM »

Here's a good article on socialization, granted from a pro-homeschool source. And some quotes from the article. To me the greatest reward of homeschooling is the maturity and socialization that our kids learn and exhibit.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000068.asp

"Academically homeschoolers have generally excelled, but some critics have continued to challenge them on an apparent "lack of socialization" or "isolation from the world." Often there is a charge that homeschoolers are not learning how to live in the "real world." However, a closer look at public school training shows that it is actually public school children who are not living in the real world."

"Practically, homeschoolers generally overcome the potential for "isolation" through heavy involvement in church youth groups, 4H clubs, music and art lessons, Little League sports participation, YMCA, Scouts, singing groups, activities with neighborhood children, academic contests (spelling bees, orations, creative and research papers), and regular involvement in field trips. In fact, one researcher stated, "The investigator was not prepared for the level of commitment exhibited by the parents in getting the child to various activities…It appeared that these students are involved in more social activities, whether by design or being with the parent in various situations, than the average middle school-aged child."

"In addition, several studies have been done to measure homeschoolers' "self-concept," which is the key objective indicator for establishing a child's self-esteem. A child's degree of self-esteem is one of the best measurements of his ability to successfully interact on a social level. One such study was conducted by John Wesley Taylor, using the Piers-Harris Children's Self-Concept Scale to evaluate 224 home-schooled children. The study found that 50 percent of the children scored above the 90th percentile, and only 10.3 percent scored below the national average."

"Thomas Smedley prepared a master's thesis for Radford University of Virginia on "The Socialization of Homeschool Children." Smedley used the Vineland Adaptive Behavior Scales to evaluate the social maturity of twenty home-schooled children and thirteen demographically matched public school children. The communication skills, socialization, and daily living skills were evaluated. These scores were combined into the "Adoptive Behavior Composite" which reflects the general maturity of each subject.

Smedley had this information processed using the statistical program for the social sciences and the results demonstrated that the home-schooled children were better socialized and more mature than the children in the public school. The home-schooled children scored in the 84th percentile while the matched sample of public school children only scored in the 27th percentile.
Smedley further found that:

In the public school system, children are socialized horizontally, and temporarily, into conformity with their immediate peers. Home educators seek to socialize their children vertically, toward responsibility, service, and adulthood, with an eye on eternity."
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« Reply #237 on: July 21, 2009, 09:32:03 PM »

Here's a good article on socialization, granted from a pro-homeschool source.

Need we read further? Smiley


In the public school system, children are socialized horizontally, and temporarily, into conformity with their immediate peers.

Not true for me, my wife, and my daughter. We were all non-conformists.

Home educators seek to socialize their children vertically, toward responsibility, service, and adulthood, with an eye on eternity."[/b]

In their mind...
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« Reply #238 on: July 21, 2009, 09:43:40 PM »

Here's a good article on socialization, granted from a pro-homeschool source.

Need we read further? Smiley


In the public school system, children are socialized horizontally, and temporarily, into conformity with their immediate peers.

Not true for me, my wife, and my daughter. We were all non-conformists.

Home educators seek to socialize their children vertically, toward responsibility, service, and adulthood, with an eye on eternity."[/b]

In their mind...

Did you take the time to read the article and see that the studies were done by post-graduate level academics, many at major universities?

And the quote you made fun of "in their mind" was the finding of a master's thesis that showed home-schooled children "better socialized and more mature".

"Not true for me, my wife, and my daughter. We were all non-conformists. " May I add, in your mind!  Wink
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« Reply #239 on: July 21, 2009, 10:18:06 PM »

Ideally I would love for my three children to receive a proper Orthodox education, but alas there are no Orthodox Christian schools in our area. Does anyone know if there are even any anywhere in the U.S.?

Public school has been OK for our two sons during elementary school. Most of their teachers were Christians, and here in the South the crusade against religion in the Public Schools is not as violent as it is in other parts of the country. But our oldest son is about to enter middle school, and we are very nervous.

Home schooling is just not feasible for us right now. But if we see a noticable negative impact on our son resulting from his public middle school environment, then we will do whatever we can to make home schooling work.

But here is the point I really want to make. The issue of education is one area where the world puts us as Christians to shame. If we really believe in the value of Christian education, then our Churches would be providing free Christian education to our children. But sadly, we have allowed economics to become an obstacle to educating our children. The world provides free education so that they can inundate our youth with secular propaganda, but we as Christians fail to meet the challenge. Certainly we have enough collective wealth within the Christian community to provide free Christian schooling for our children. So I guess we need to examine ourselves and ask what our priorities really are. I think we should be ashamed of this, and that we should seriously try to address this great need.

What do you guys think?

Selam 
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« Reply #240 on: July 21, 2009, 10:34:43 PM »

There are many Christian groups who have their own schools. I attended one such school for 9th and 10th grades. The teachers had only a minimal education themselves, but for the most part, were very dedicated and talented. Classes were small and orderly.


As for Orthodox Christian schools, i believe there is one in Chicago, run by the Serbians. There is also one in San Francisco run out of the ROCOR cathedral. As far as I know they are still running, but someone here may have more recent info on that.
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« Reply #241 on: July 21, 2009, 10:51:57 PM »

Ideally I would love for my three children to receive a proper Orthodox education, but alas there are no Orthodox Christian schools in our area. Does anyone know if there are even any anywhere in the U.S.?

More than 30 in the Greek Archdiocese alone.
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« Reply #242 on: July 22, 2009, 12:13:48 AM »

Rosehip and Pensateomnia, are these schools free or is there a tuition?

Selam
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« Reply #243 on: July 22, 2009, 12:20:26 AM »

They usually have a tuition.
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« Reply #244 on: July 22, 2009, 01:31:39 AM »

They usually have a tuition.

The issue of education is one area where the world puts us as Christians to shame. If we really believe in the value of Christian education, then our Churches would be providing free Christian education to our children. But sadly, we have allowed economics to become an obstacle to educating our children. The world provides free education so that they can inundate our youth with secular propaganda, but we as Christians fail to meet the challenge. Certainly we have enough collective wealth within the Christian community to provide free Christian schooling for our children. So I guess we need to examine ourselves and ask what our priorities really are. I think we should be ashamed of this, and that we should seriously try to address this great need.

What do you guys think?

Selam
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« Reply #245 on: July 22, 2009, 02:02:47 AM »

For a full K-12 education, it would probably cost a parish $600,000+ just in salaries, benefits, and payroll taxes for a dozen educators, let alone supply costs and other expenses of running a school (administration, etc.).

What makes sense?  Public education, supplemented by in-home education (parent-led, parish-supported), and let the parishes raise the $600k for charity (feeding the starving, housing the homeless, etc.).
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« Reply #246 on: July 22, 2009, 04:46:30 AM »

For a full K-12 education, it would probably cost a parish $600,000+ just in salaries, benefits, and payroll taxes for a dozen educators, let alone supply costs and other expenses of running a school (administration, etc.).

What makes sense?  Public education, supplemented by in-home education (parent-led, parish-supported), and let the parishes raise the $600k for charity (feeding the starving, housing the homeless, etc.).

I think this is a bit of a cop out. I mean, why not just let the government also feed the starving and house the homeless? The government is always claiming to do so anyway, but we know the reality. And the government also claims to be "educating" our children, but in reality public education is often more detrimental than enlightening.

We have divine resources at our disposal, so why are we unwilling to do what it takes to provide our children (and other children) with godly education? The world looks at us and says, "Your Faith is a nice little source of psychological comfort, but when you really need something you come running to the government." It seems to me that if we were living out our faith to the fullest, then we wouldn't need insurance, we wouldn't have to pay for private education or send our kids to public schools, and we Christians wouldn't mirror the pagans with some of us living in luxury while many of us struggle to make ends meet.

We have to show the world that our Christian Faith is not merely a "pie in the sky" religion, but that it also enables us to meet the real tangible needs of our daily existence here on earth.

Just my two cents. Smiley

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« Reply #247 on: July 22, 2009, 07:27:23 AM »

Did you take the time to read the article and see that the studies were done by post-graduate level academics, many at major universities?

And the quote you made fun of "in their mind" was the finding of a master's thesis that showed home-schooled children "better socialized and more mature".

But how can this be objectively evaluated? I mean, where are the objective criteria for the mentioned "horizontality" or "verticality?" I will read the article in full today, but I am already alerted - because I am basically uncomfortable with the terminology I saw in your quote.

"Not true for me, my wife, and my daughter. We were all non-conformists. " May I add, in your mind!  Wink

You may!
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« Reply #248 on: July 22, 2009, 07:30:35 AM »

We have divine resources at our disposal, so why are we unwilling to do what it takes to provide our children (and other children) with godly education?

Because no matter how "godly" this education may seem to you, it fundamentally deprives your children of the experience of learning basic disciplines from a team of professional teachers, pedagogues, and of the experience of interacting with diverse groups of peers. I am afraid this is a deadly combination.
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« Reply #249 on: July 22, 2009, 07:59:36 AM »

But how can this be objectively evaluated? I mean, where are the objective criteria for the mentioned "horizontality" or "verticality?" I will read the article in full today, but I am already alerted - because I am basically uncomfortable with the terminology I saw in your quote.

Don't bother.  The thing is sickeningly biased, the surveys/studies' pools are disturbingly small (then again, when was a survey seen as anything authoritative), and all compounded with typical soft-science hokum.  But the King is the exaggerations, such as, "the greatest benefit from homeschool socialization is that the child can be protected from the negative socialization of the public schools associated with peer pressure, such as rebellious attitudes, immaturity, immorality, drugs, and violent behavior".
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« Reply #250 on: July 22, 2009, 08:13:00 AM »

But how can this be objectively evaluated? I mean, where are the objective criteria for the mentioned "horizontality" or "verticality?" I will read the article in full today, but I am already alerted - because I am basically uncomfortable with the terminology I saw in your quote.

Don't bother.  The thing is sickeningly biased, the surveys/studies' pools are disturbingly small (then again, when was a survey seen as anything authoritative), and all compounded with typical soft-science hokum.  But the King is the exaggerations, such as, "the greatest benefit from homeschool socialization is that the child can be protected from the negative socialization of the public schools associated with peer pressure, such as rebellious attitudes, immaturity, immorality, drugs, and violent behavior".

Indeed this "protection" sounds like mind control to me...
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« Reply #251 on: July 22, 2009, 08:22:15 AM »

But how can this be objectively evaluated? I mean, where are the objective criteria for the mentioned "horizontality" or "verticality?" I will read the article in full today, but I am already alerted - because I am basically uncomfortable with the terminology I saw in your quote.

Don't bother.  The thing is sickeningly biased, the surveys/studies' pools are disturbingly small (then again, when was a survey seen as anything authoritative), and all compounded with typical soft-science hokum.  But the King is the exaggerations, such as, "the greatest benefit from homeschool socialization is that the child can be protected from the negative socialization of the public schools associated with peer pressure, such as rebellious attitudes, immaturity, immorality, drugs, and violent behavior".

Indeed this "protection" sounds like mind control to me...

Are we not supposed to control our minds as well as our bodies? Our soul leads the body and must tell it what to do instead of vice versa. Some people may see homeschooling as a further ascesis (sp?) or form of a non-monastic ascetic life.
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« Reply #252 on: July 22, 2009, 08:30:40 AM »

But how can this be objectively evaluated? I mean, where are the objective criteria for the mentioned "horizontality" or "verticality?" I will read the article in full today, but I am already alerted - because I am basically uncomfortable with the terminology I saw in your quote.

Don't bother.  The thing is sickeningly biased, the surveys/studies' pools are disturbingly small (then again, when was a survey seen as anything authoritative), and all compounded with typical soft-science hokum.  But the King is the exaggerations, such as, "the greatest benefit from homeschool socialization is that the child can be protected from the negative socialization of the public schools associated with peer pressure, such as rebellious attitudes, immaturity, immorality, drugs, and violent behavior".

Indeed this "protection" sounds like mind control to me...

Are we not supposed to control our minds as well as our bodies? Our soul leads the body and must tell it what to do instead of vice versa. Some people may see homeschooling as a further ascesis (sp?) or form of a non-monastic ascetic life.

We certainly must control our minds, but I am talking about an "imputed" mind control, when a kid is simply deprived of the mind of his/her own and is completely indoctrinated in a certain "modus vivendi." Public education, with all its shortcomings, prevents this, I believe. On the other hand, homeschooling may not.
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« Reply #253 on: July 22, 2009, 08:43:48 AM »

The world provides free education

Not sure where you got that idea. Public education costs me and everyone else I know a lot of money.

I do believe we need more Orthodox schools, but I am very happy to see how many have sprung up in the last 20 years. Most operate at a loss that is covered by donations, including scholarships to those who can't afford tuition.
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« Reply #254 on: July 22, 2009, 10:00:12 AM »

But how can this be objectively evaluated? I mean, where are the objective criteria for the mentioned "horizontality" or "verticality?" I will read the article in full today, but I am already alerted - because I am basically uncomfortable with the terminology I saw in your quote.

Don't bother.  The thing is sickeningly biased, the surveys/studies' pools are disturbingly small (then again, when was a survey seen as anything authoritative), and all compounded with typical soft-science hokum.  But the King is the exaggerations, such as, "the greatest benefit from homeschool socialization is that the child can be protected from the negative socialization of the public schools associated with peer pressure, such as rebellious attitudes, immaturity, immorality, drugs, and violent behavior".

Indeed this "protection" sounds like mind control to me...

Are we not supposed to control our minds as well as our bodies? Our soul leads the body and must tell it what to do instead of vice versa. Some people may see homeschooling as a further ascesis (sp?) or form of a non-monastic ascetic life.

We certainly must control our minds, but I am talking about an "imputed" mind control, when a kid is simply deprived of the mind of his/her own and is completely indoctrinated in a certain "modus vivendi." Public education, with all its shortcomings, prevents this, I believe. On the other hand, homeschooling may not.

So you don't think public education is mind control?  One might be of the opinion that public school provides the sheep for a materialistic, shallow society. I imagine some people are reading this discussion and see it as a good example of what happens when people try to break free of public school "mind control", they get stereotyped and labeled, not based on objective evidence or studies, but on fear and ignorance.
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« Reply #255 on: July 22, 2009, 10:19:24 AM »

For a full K-12 education, it would probably cost a parish $600,000+ just in salaries, benefits, and payroll taxes for a dozen educators, let alone supply costs and other expenses of running a school (administration, etc.).

What makes sense?  Public education, supplemented by in-home education (parent-led, parish-supported), and let the parishes raise the $600k for charity (feeding the starving, housing the homeless, etc.).

I think this is a bit of a cop out. I mean, why not just let the government also feed the starving and house the homeless? The government is always claiming to do so anyway, but we know the reality. And the government also claims to be "educating" our children, but in reality public education is often more detrimental than enlightening.

Different point altogether.  There is a divine mandate to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, etc. (Judgment Sunday Gospel reading, anyone?), while there is not a divine mandate to provide schooling.  A church which does not educate its children is not condemned (heck, great saints like St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great got a secular education!); however, a Church which does not engage in charity to the downtrodden will have a hard time justifying its existence.

We have divine resources at our disposal, so why are we unwilling to do what it takes to provide our children (and other children) with godly education? The world looks at us and says, "Your Faith is a nice little source of psychological comfort, but when you really need something you come running to the government." It seems to me that if we were living out our faith to the fullest, then we wouldn't need insurance, we wouldn't have to pay for private education or send our kids to public schools, and we Christians wouldn't mirror the pagans with some of us living in luxury while many of us struggle to make ends meet.

We have to show the world that our Christian Faith is not merely a "pie in the sky" religion, but that it also enables us to meet the real tangible needs of our daily existence here on earth. 

That can be done in the home.  Let the Church educate parents about raising children in the faith, and let the parents educate the children about their faith.  Let those who have spent time studying English, the sciences, etc. teach those subjects in the public schools; let those who have the energy and competence teach them at home.  But the operation of a school is so costly that it can only be done by parishes who can get a critical mass of students, and for the rest their energy should be directed on charity.

I think you're conflating different issues erroneously (like social injustice and public education).
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« Reply #256 on: July 22, 2009, 10:44:09 AM »

So you don't think public education is mind control?

No, because the child in a public school is - or, at least, should be! - exposed to a diversity in the teachers' team as well as in the peers. That teaches to make choices and to face consequences of these choices.

One might be of the opinion that public school provides the sheep for a materialistic, shallow society. I imagine some people are reading this discussion and see it as a good example of what happens when people try to break free of public school "mind control", they get stereotyped and labeled, not based on objective evidence or studies, but on fear and ignorance.

But look at Nebelpfade's comment about the "studies" you quote...
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« Reply #257 on: July 22, 2009, 12:36:12 PM »

So you don't think public education is mind control?
Absolutely not. When a child learns from a variety of people, they are exposed to a variety of beliefs they probably would not have otherwise encountered. Never do public schools instruct the children on what to believe; our emphasis is on critical thinking skills and socially responsible actions and interactions with others. They can believe anything they want, but we want them to know why they believe it, and they must behave in a way that does not put others at risk. I dare you to find a place in society where such an attitude is not beneficial.
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« Reply #258 on: July 22, 2009, 12:41:09 PM »

Quote
But that's only one side of school education, the negative one. There is the other side: learning experience, social experience, maturation, training of the will, understanding good and evil, learning about different people... Home education does not give that...
No, in the public school is part and parcel of their 'education' Girls are 'educated' as to how to either avoid the predatory boys, or give in in order to maintain some semblance of acceptance on their peer platform. Learning experience is not remotely limited to some archaic industrial building of brick and mortar, with social experiments culminating in who has the latest fashion styles and who doesn't. And you have nothing concrete to support that the State has enough of a moral compass to teach proper maturity, training of the will, and certainly not an understanding of good and evil.  One can learn about different people by any number of means, hardly limiting them to the state's theories on diversity.


Quote
Factories are all outsourced to China. Marginally educated people man the banks, insurance companies, government agencies, sometimes even the White House... Smiley
Well that is true for the most part. However I did notice in my own public experience there was an entire grouping of students that were marginalized, even classed in one specific part of the school for most of their coursework. They were also the ones on work release to go to the local fast food or mechanic joints as part of their 'education' Someone in guidance had decided these specific kids would never be working for NASA and had effectively given up on them, relegating them to beauty school. These were the barely educated kids, the marginally educated ones went to work for B&W Nuclear!


Quote
That's exactly what I think is questionable. It is bad, I agree, but those things may indeed make a child or an adolescent stronger. Like I said, the very many negatives of my daughter's public school did, in fact, make her much stronger. And me, too...
I think it probably helps to tell yourself this, but deep within your soul you know battering isn't necessary to a being's development. Common sense does dictate that if everyone just got out of the way of a young girl, she could achieve more academically in a shorter time period than having to deal with the various idiots, predators and fiends. Yes, I am stronger for having been abused by my father, but that doesn't mean I couldn't have done without that abuse. I am stronger for having a guidance counselor blow me off because I would not submit her lesbian agenda or play basketball for her. Doesn't mean she couldn't have done a better job, via her grandiose education of course, noticing something was dreadfully wrong in my home life that was affecting my academic life..  Should we really trade the innocence of our children for whatever the wolves have prepared for them, simply to make them stronger? Like I said, the world is going nowhere but to Sheol. Its going to be awaiting them no matter what we do. I still don't think like a statist, so I say its not the world's job to prepare my child. Its my job, with whomever I hire or see fit to help me, to prepare my child for the world.



Quote
But then they will go to college, and... ?
My dear George, my oldest (the only graduate thus far) went to college and high school simultaneously-getting credit for both. It not only can be done, its done all the time. Many many many hs'ers go through colleges all across our land and graduate just like everyone else, and nobody knows just from looking out on the graduating class. Many publicaly educated kids go to college on someones trust, and spend 4 years drinking and manipulating things just enough to barely graduate. You make too many assumptions when its been going on for centuries just like this, with more than competent results all along. I still believe that there are some kids, from every background, that simply are not ready for college. Or maybe do not have any idea what they want to do for the rest of their natural days. There are just kids that are sent off because its the "thing to do" at some magical age. Yet we know not everyone is the same emotionally or spiritually at 18, or 19.   

Any education done by the state is purely control by and for the benefit of the  state. I am not educating my children for the state because they don't belong to my government in the first place. This is not to say that every single homeschooled student that emerges will be at genius IQ, any more than every state educated child will be a genius. When my child can't read after leaving the public system, there is NO ONE to hold accountable. You get excuses or labels placed on the child. But heaven forbid if a homeschool child has any difficulty, the parents are held liable regardless of whether that child wasn't previously helped by the school system or whether they have a disability. The fact that there is no legal recourse when the schools fail, which they do all the time, shows a blatant disregard for academic achievement-which some of you suggest is so laudable in the ps system. I am here to tell you it just isn't there. Its just enough to get by, just enough to get done and enter the work force. And don't even get me started on the special education field! That one has even more landmines than anything we have discussed here.

As far as exposure to diverse cultures, and people groups being limited to the public sector, that is categorically false. I can't tell you how many hs'ers I know that went to foreign countries with their children this summer -whether for missions or simply to build schools and hospitals. They also go during the academic year and do the same sorts of things, because they can. We are at everything from childrens hospitals, fundraisers for various diseases, sporting events, historical field trips, nursing homes, orphanages...you name it. Everyone has their specific calling, but I am bombarded each year with all sorts of options from just one of my homeschooling groups. The others just add to the plethora of choices I have at my disposal. Not to mention our family is deeply embedded in the special needs arena with the only young girl with Rett in our region. (at least the only one properly diagnosed, her dev. pediatrician was so inadequate I would imagine she has misdiagnosed other girls here as well) So my children are immersed in special education legislation, specialists, therapists and raising awareness for this condition even amongst their peers. Empathy for others less fortunate does NOT develop under the state, it develops in the spirit because of guidance of the parents in the home and because of what is taught of the Church.
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« Reply #259 on: July 22, 2009, 12:53:22 PM »

I'm going to have to disagree on some level... While a child is allowed to think more on his/her own in a public school setting, there is still a great deal of mind control going on whether it's coming from the institution or their peers.

Just look at modern public schools:
Standing in line
Walking in line
Going through a line of the mess hall/cafeteria to eat
Layout of schools is often long corridors w/ smaller offshoots, windows are very rare, giving it a prison-like feel
Classes in most schools are larger w/ 20-30 kids, with all kids of the same grades taking the same classes (mostly)
Same tests are given to every kid despite background
Learning is often based on ability to produce work based on pre-determined tests/worksheets, often standardized with set answers
Truancy & late arrivals are punished
"Bad" kids are sent to ISS (or OSS if severe), often a smaller room w/o windows where other like-kids are packed
School offices are often isolated from students & classrooms w/o the ability of students to interact with officials (unless they leave their offices).
Virtually no breaks save for the standard 15-30 minute lunch in the middle of the day

There are many other examples of mind control in public schools, or ways it controls/effects the student(s) minds. These are often NOT intentional, but rather are simply ways of creating efficiency & order in an enviironment that has the potential of being very chaotic.

Schools are very similar to, and IMO, were tailored to preparing children for the workforce, that is, entering an industry-based economy.

Am I saying this is right or wrong? No I am not, but we must recognize that just as much mind control goes on in public schools as goes on in home schooling.
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« Reply #260 on: July 22, 2009, 01:03:36 PM »

I will say though, in homeschooling there is much more opportunity for the parent to instill a mindset on the child, whereas in public school, multiple teachers often try to do this with the children though not all teachers do this.

I think parents ought to have a good deal of control over their child, but it should NOT be to the level of where the child has no knowledge of the outside world or any ability to think on his own... Also, in public school, teachers should NEVER be allowed to instill something on to the children that hasn't been proven factually. Children can and should ask for their teachers opinions, but no good teacher gives their opinion as a part of the lecture.
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« Reply #261 on: July 22, 2009, 01:05:30 PM »

No, in the public school is part and parcel of their 'education' Girls are 'educated' as to how to either avoid the predatory boys, or give in in order to maintain some semblance of acceptance on their peer platform. Learning experience is not remotely limited to some archaic industrial building of brick and mortar, with social experiments culminating in who has the latest fashion styles and who doesn't. And you have nothing concrete to support that the State has enough of a moral compass to teach proper maturity, training of the will, and certainly not an understanding of good and evil.  One can learn about different people by any number of means, hardly limiting them to the state's theories on diversity.
Here you are talking about what we call the "hidden curriculum"; that is, the idea that children will learn certain things, even if they are not intentionally taught. This is quite true. We certainly do not teach girls that giving into a boy's advances is a good way to gain social acceptance, yet we know that some learn this anyway. It's unfortunate, but it does occur--and among home-schooled children too.

Moreover, your issues about the State's moral compass I feel are disingenuous. The State is not some impersonal being who dictates in a booming voice what your child should learn. And teachers have a high moral compass. Did you know that it is possible to revoke the licence of a teacher, even a tenured one, for life because of "moral turpitude"? It has happened on many occasions. Teachers are highly competent, highly moral people who are quite interested in children becoming the same.

Quote
Well that is true for the most part. However I did notice in my own public experience there was an entire grouping of students that were marginalized, even classed in one specific part of the school for most of their coursework. They were also the ones on work release to go to the local fast food or mechanic joints as part of their 'education' Someone in guidance had decided these specific kids would never be working for NASA and had effectively given up on them, relegating them to beauty school. These were the barely educated kids, the marginally educated ones went to work for B&W Nuclear!
Guidance counselors don't have any such power. No one can tell you what you can and cannot do. However, there are some things that you are probably going to be better at than others. I can teach, but I'm pretty lousy at waiting tables. Therefore, I should do what I'm good at; I'll be happier that way.

Quote
Any education done by the state is purely control by and for the benefit of the  state. I am not educating my children for the state because they don't belong to my government in the first place.
Again, you seem to feel that the State is some massive impersonal entity imposing its will on others. This is not true: You are the government, and your children do belong to the government because they belong to you. Instead of removing yourself from your responsibilities as a member of government, or of complaining about what government does while you have abandoned it, why don't you take responsibility for what we do and go voice your opinions? You rule this country, and no one else. President Obama works for you, not the other way around. Do not forget this; if you do, you are only hurting yourself.

Quote
But heaven forbid if a homeschool child has any difficulty, the parents are held liable regardless of whether that child wasn't previously helped by the school system or whether they have a disability.
Schools are legally required to spend whatever money, time, etc. is necessary to educate your child who has a disability. If you choose not to avail yourself of these resources, and fail to provide education for that child yourself, yes, it's your fault.

Quote
As far as exposure to diverse cultures, and people groups being limited to the public sector, that is categorically false. I can't tell you how many hs'ers I know that went to foreign countries with their children this summer -whether for missions or simply to build schools and hospitals. They also go during the academic year and do the same sorts of things, because they can. We are at everything from childrens hospitals, fundraisers for various diseases, sporting events, historical field trips, nursing homes, orphanages...you name it.
Really? Public schools don't expose kids to foreign cultures? Guess I'll have to go tell the group of students I'm taking to Spain next summer.
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« Reply #262 on: July 22, 2009, 01:12:25 PM »

I'm going to have to disagree on some level... While a child is allowed to think more on his/her own in a public school setting, there is still a great deal of mind control going on whether it's coming from the institution or their peers.

Just look at modern public schools:
Standing in line
Walking in line
Going through a line of the mess hall/cafeteria to eat
Layout of schools is often long corridors w/ smaller offshoots, windows are very rare, giving it a prison-like feel
Classes in most schools are larger w/ 20-30 kids, with all kids of the same grades taking the same classes (mostly)
Same tests are given to every kid despite background
Learning is often based on ability to produce work based on pre-determined tests/worksheets, often standardized with set answers
Truancy & late arrivals are punished
"Bad" kids are sent to ISS (or OSS if severe), often a smaller room w/o windows where other like-kids are packed
School offices are often isolated from students & classrooms w/o the ability of students to interact with officials (unless they leave their offices).
Virtually no breaks save for the standard 15-30 minute lunch in the middle of the day

There are many other examples of mind control in public schools, or ways it controls/effects the student(s) minds. These are often NOT intentional, but rather are simply ways of creating efficiency & order in an enviironment that has the potential of being very chaotic.

Schools are very similar to, and IMO, were tailored to preparing children for the workforce, that is, entering an industry-based economy.

Am I saying this is right or wrong? No I am not, but we must recognize that just as much mind control goes on in public schools as goes on in home schooling.
I think you confuse mind control with the sheer need for order to get through the day.  Have you ever attempted to herd 30 kids willy-nilly into a room?  When someone says mind control, I blieve that means telling a child what to think without having any alternative viewpoints, and at worst it can involve coercion, verbal abuse, and psychological abuse.  I wouldn't call it mind control to have the kids lining up and adhering to attendance policies.  Again, if you're going to be dealing with any sizable group of children, you're going to have to have a plan to get them from point A to point B without a mutiny.  I'm not saying that means you should browbeat the children into submission, but they should be reasonably quiet and orderly for the sake of other classes they might pass in transit.  And yeah, it is a valuable skill to learn not just in the work world, but in life in general.  If I'm waiting patiently in line behind someone at the bank, I don't want the person behind me to just wander up to the teller ahead of me because he's never learned to wait in a queue.  Any society must have some kind of order to function well.

As for standardized testing, that's a whole 'nother road to go down but I know there are exceptions for kids who have special needs.  
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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams
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« Reply #263 on: July 22, 2009, 01:15:37 PM »

Just look at modern public schools:
Standing in line
Walking in line
Yes; this is for the children's safety. We walk in a line out to the playground, for example, so that the kids don't run out into the street. It's the same as a parent holding a child's hand, except that a teacher does not have enough hands.

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Going through a line of the mess hall/cafeteria to eat
Yeah, I never do this at a fast food place or kiosk. Ever. This skill is totally inapplicable to adult life. Roll Eyes

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Layout of schools is often long corridors w/ smaller offshoots, windows are very rare, giving it a prison-like feel
Depends on the architecture. Our school has lots of windows and a nice, bright feel.

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Classes in most schools are larger w/ 20-30 kids, with all kids of the same grades taking the same classes (mostly)
Not in junior high/high school. Younger children cannot handle choosing their own classes, but the kids eventually get to pick what they want to learn, when they can make a responsible choice.

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Same tests are given to every kid despite background
Not true at all. You just think we were giving the same test. Wink

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Learning is often based on ability to produce work based on pre-determined tests/worksheets, often standardized with set answers
Really? Your teachers did this, and weren't fired for incompetency? You should get down to your school board right away.

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Truancy & late arrivals are punished
Yeah, once they get out into the working world they'll find out that a boss loves people who skip work and are constantly late. Roll Eyes

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"Bad" kids are sent to ISS (or OSS if severe), often a smaller room w/o windows where other like-kids are packed
No, these are not bad kids, but kids who have done something dangerous to others. Big difference.

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School offices are often isolated from students & classrooms w/o the ability of students to interact with officials (unless they leave their offices).
Again, depends on the architecture of the school. Our offices are at the junction of our two main corridors, adjacent to one classroom and across the corridor from two others. All the kids pass by the offices at least once per day, and my counselor and principal are out to greet them during every change of period (except that they will not interrupt a meeting with a student to do so).

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Virtually no breaks save for the standard 15-30 minute lunch in the middle of the day
Depends on the teacher. The current trend is toward mini-lessons of no more than 15 minutes, and time to get up/stretch in the middle of each period (several times if the school uses block scheduling).

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Schools are very similar to, and IMO, were tailored to preparing children for the workforce, that is, entering an industry-based economy.
Should we not prepare children for the workforce? The number of families with two working parents has been on the rise for quite some time, and it's extremely likely that all of our children will be employed at least some time in their lives.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 01:21:53 PM by ytterbiumanalyst » Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
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« Reply #264 on: July 22, 2009, 01:17:28 PM »

I guess I was confusing mind control with socialization/social control... After reading your posts, I just remembered what we were taught in Sociology about educational institutions. It isn't mind control, but rather just socialization. And socialization occurs regardless where you are, whether it's public school or in the family.

You could probably think of mind control as (instead of socialization) what goes on in cults and other such groups where one's ability to think and learn is suppressed to the point where they are simply a puppet of the controller.

This could definitely happen in homeschooling, but it can also happen in public school, though I'm sure its less likely to happen or go on for a long period of time.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 01:18:27 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #265 on: July 22, 2009, 01:31:16 PM »

Oh, I must also say... Our public schools in my hometown... Well, are not so good... So I guess my perspective comes from that.

Just a few notes to explain:
1. School would hire teachers often despite lack of experience, one of our (students) favorite teachers was forced to resign because although he was a football teacher, he did many questionable things like give us tests and actually help us during, or graded us with A's no matter what our answers were. He would also let us watch movies almost 24/7, let kids store food up in the drop ceiling, he even answered the phone of a student and talked to the parent (who was actually the school board pres. calling his daught. during class).

2. During my last year, about halfway through from Dec. to May, we would have at least 1 or 2 fights every other week. Most often these occurred between girls. I witnessed one especially bloody/violent beating where one girl ended up hospitalized and the other went to jail. The response was to simply add a policeman to our school, in addition to the resource officer, nothing else was really done till a year or a year and a half later.

3. Oftentimes, especially after games with our rival town, kids would start fights with the rivals. Once, about 50-90 of our kids (grad. and in-school) gathered in the Wal-Mart parking lot ready to go and fight the kids from the rival town.

4. My senior year, we had about 4 new teachers, by the next year, even more teachers left the school, either retiring or leaving for other school districts.

5. Also, students and parents tried to vote certain board members out of office because of incompetency and other problems. However, this only succeeded to a degree with one former beloved teacher being elected, while the others retained seats. The problems with them caused many teachers to leave.

6. Our school had a new principal at least 3 times during my stay at the high school.

7. Our high school changed schedule types and organization all four years I was there...

8. Our grammar grades were the worst in Kansas City for a long time, individual teachers (mainly one) tried to help with this, but the school did virtually nothing to improve it.

There were many other problems in our public school....

So, my experience wasn't that great, hopefully you can see that it really factors into my perception on public school education...
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 01:31:47 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #266 on: July 22, 2009, 06:06:00 PM »

We have divine resources at our disposal, so why are we unwilling to do what it takes to provide our children (and other children) with godly education?

Because no matter how "godly" this education may seem to you, it fundamentally deprives your children of the experience of learning basic disciplines from a team of professional teachers, pedagogues, and of the experience of interacting with diverse groups of peers. I am afraid this is a deadly combination.


Dear friend,

Why are you assuming that Orthodox Christian education would preclude "the experience of learning basic disciplines from a team of professional teachers, pedagogues, and of the experience of interacting with diverse groups of peers."? This statement seems to be mighty prejudicial against Christians in general. Do you really believe that secular government produces better "qualified" teachers than the Christian community can produce? Do you really believe that the only authentic "diversity" is to be found in the cauldron of public education?

With all due respect, your statement smacks of condescension and elitism. I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, but perhaps you have sipped from the Kool Aid well once too often. Wink It can happen to the best of us.

Selam
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« Reply #267 on: July 22, 2009, 06:11:53 PM »

The world provides free education

Not sure where you got that idea. Public education costs me and everyone else I know a lot of money.

I do believe we need more Orthodox schools, but I am very happy to see how many have sprung up in the last 20 years. Most operate at a loss that is covered by donations, including scholarships to those who can't afford tuition.

We all no that "there are no free lunches." Thus you make my argument even stronger. If we are already colluding with the secular world to provide godless education to our children, then why not collaborate as Christians to provide godly education? I'm afraid that if we're honest, the answer is apathy and laziness. We're just not concerned enough to get of our @$$es and make it happen.

Selam 
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« Reply #268 on: July 22, 2009, 06:32:40 PM »

For a full K-12 education, it would probably cost a parish $600,000+ just in salaries, benefits, and payroll taxes for a dozen educators, let alone supply costs and other expenses of running a school (administration, etc.).

What makes sense?  Public education, supplemented by in-home education (parent-led, parish-supported), and let the parishes raise the $600k for charity (feeding the starving, housing the homeless, etc.).

I think this is a bit of a cop out. I mean, why not just let the government also feed the starving and house the homeless? The government is always claiming to do so anyway, but we know the reality. And the government also claims to be "educating" our children, but in reality public education is often more detrimental than enlightening.

Different point altogether.  There is a divine mandate to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, etc. (Judgment Sunday Gospel reading, anyone?), while there is not a divine mandate to provide schooling.  A church which does not educate its children is not condemned (heck, great saints like St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great got a secular education!); however, a Church which does not engage in charity to the downtrodden will have a hard time justifying its existence.

We have divine resources at our disposal, so why are we unwilling to do what it takes to provide our children (and other children) with godly education? The world looks at us and says, "Your Faith is a nice little source of psychological comfort, but when you really need something you come running to the government." It seems to me that if we were living out our faith to the fullest, then we wouldn't need insurance, we wouldn't have to pay for private education or send our kids to public schools, and we Christians wouldn't mirror the pagans with some of us living in luxury while many of us struggle to make ends meet.

We have to show the world that our Christian Faith is not merely a "pie in the sky" religion, but that it also enables us to meet the real tangible needs of our daily existence here on earth. 

That can be done in the home.  Let the Church educate parents about raising children in the faith, and let the parents educate the children about their faith.  Let those who have spent time studying English, the sciences, etc. teach those subjects in the public schools; let those who have the energy and competence teach them at home.  But the operation of a school is so costly that it can only be done by parishes who can get a critical mass of students, and for the rest their energy should be directed on charity.

I think you're conflating different issues erroneously (like social injustice and public education).

Some of what you say is valid. But there is a false dichotomy that you, Heorhij, and some others continue to make. You guys keep assuming that there is a dichotomy between "faith" and "education." Not only is it very arrogant, but it is also very ignorant to assume that Christians are unqualified to teach the academic sciences. You are either very naive or very disingenuous if you think that secular institutions are more immune from prejudicial biases than Christian institutions. Secularism is a "faith" of its own, and anyone is a fool if they think otherwise. As Christians we must not allow the secular world to tell us that they alone have the "knowledge" and that we only have our "faith." As Blessed Augustine said, "I believe, therefore I know." So stop asserting this false dichotomy between "faith" and "education."

And by the way, a lot of social injustice is the product of public education.

Selam 
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 06:36:51 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

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« Reply #269 on: July 22, 2009, 06:39:39 PM »

Great article in the new Sports Illustrated about Tim Tebow.  National Champion Quarterback of Florida, two-time Heisman trophy winner, ACADEMIC ALL-American, and called by coach Urban Meyer the greatest leader he's ever coached. Tim was also home-schooled through high school by his mother.  Grew up around the world as his parents are missionaries.  When you home-school your children you open them up to possibilities only limited by yours and theirs hard work, dedication and faith.
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