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Author Topic: Homeschool VS Public School  (Read 65911 times) Average Rating: 1
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« Reply #180 on: July 16, 2009, 08:24:44 PM »


So do it, rather than justifying resection of appendices by architects, musicians, accountants, etc.!

Wish it were that easy. The CTA is run like the mafia and protects its own. The LA times did a whole series on how hard it is to fire incompetent teachers in California. The education bureaucracy is set up for the benefit of the teachers, not the students. The whole system is corrupt and in need of complete overhaul. The teachers' unions need to go.

I can understand the reasons why a parent would want to home school. Anyway, teaching is not a science like practicing medicine. Anyone who is bright enough, with a strong desire, and with a good curriculum can teach. Many of them can do a much better job than some of the incompetent state-certified teachers I have had to deal with. The whole certification process is a joke anyway. If an incompetent can pass the test, their certification requirements mean nothing.
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« Reply #181 on: July 16, 2009, 08:27:43 PM »

In response to your continued analogies about taking a child to a doctor being the same as sending a child to a public school..... If you know that your doctor can't pass a basic skills test on human anatomy and physiology, would you still be taking your child to that doctor?

No, but I won't do the appendectomy myself; rather, I'll find another skilled, trained doctor. Or are you saying that ALL public schols in the USA are failures?

Not all of us have a choice of multiple public schools or moving around the country for the sake of finding a school where a child will be able to learn what they need to know. All public schools are probably not failures, but the sad fact is that public schools in most major metropolitan areas are an insult to the educational system.

-Nick
So FIGHT THIS!!!!!!!!!! Admit that you guys resort to this outrageous "homeschooling" idea because something is basically, esentially, fundamentally WRONG in your country! Don't find excuses, don't agitate,for this weird idea, don't propagate it! And DO something, finally... rather than divide into liberals and conservatives etc.....
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« Reply #182 on: July 16, 2009, 08:30:19 PM »

But what should you Americans do? Resect appendices by yourselves?
's

If you are going to continue to use the analogy of a doctor, I would have had the right to sue a few of my son's public school teachers for malpractice. Maybe that isn't a bad idea after all. The incompetent ones would be fired quickly if that were the case.

So do it, rather than justifying resection of appendices by architects, musicians, accountants, etc.!

Why are we picking on accountants? I take that personally being an accountant who has a wide range and breadth of knowledge. Do you have nothing else of value to add to this discussion than to make personal attacks on everyone who doesn't give weight to your point of view?

-Nick
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« Reply #183 on: July 16, 2009, 08:31:30 PM »

I can understand the reasons why a parent would want to home school. Anyway, teaching is not a science like practicing medicine. Anyone who is bright enough, with a strong desire, and with a good curriculum can teach. Many of them can do a much better job than some of the incompetent state-certified teachers I have had to deal with. The whole certification process is a joke anyway. If an incompetent can pass the test, their certification requirements mean nothing.

That's where you and I fundamentally disagree. I do very strongly believe that educating is a science, and an art, and a lifelong commitment. If the child is not given the fundamentals of learning (which, I think, cannot be really assessed by any standartized tests), then this child will not learn anything beyong flat, primitive, stereotypical ideas about the world.
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« Reply #184 on: July 16, 2009, 08:32:44 PM »

But what should you Americans do? Resect appendices by yourselves?
's

If you are going to continue to use the analogy of a doctor, I would have had the right to sue a few of my son's public school teachers for malpractice. Maybe that isn't a bad idea after all. The incompetent ones would be fired quickly if that were the case.

So do it, rather than justifying resection of appendices by architects, musicians, accountants, etc.!

Why are we picking on accountants? I take that personally being an accountant who has a wide range and breadth of knowledge. Do you have nothing else of value to add to this discussion than to make personal attacks on everyone who doesn't give weight to your point of view?

-Nick


Sorry, I was just giving RANDOM examples of people who were not specifically educated and trained to be TEACHERS. Please cross out the acountants from my list, and instead add scientists.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 08:33:19 PM by Heorhij » Logged

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« Reply #185 on: July 16, 2009, 08:42:17 PM »

In response to your continued analogies about taking a child to a doctor being the same as sending a child to a public school..... If you know that your doctor can't pass a basic skills test on human anatomy and physiology, would you still be taking your child to that doctor?

No, but I won't do the appendectomy myself; rather, I'll find another skilled, trained doctor. Or are you saying that ALL public schols in the USA are failures?


Not all of us have a choice of multiple public schools or moving around the country for the sake of finding a school where a child will be able to learn what they need to know. All public schools are probably not failures, but the sad fact is that public schools in most major metropolitan areas are an insult to the educational system.

-Nick
So FIGHT THIS!!!!!!!!!! Admit that you guys resort to this outrageous "homeschooling" idea because something is basically, esentially, fundamentally WRONG in your country! Don't find excuses, don't agitate,for this weird idea, don't propagate it! And DO something, finally... rather than divide into liberals and conservatives etc.....

You don't live in this country.  People have tried, with no success.  Home education has existed in this country since since for as long as can be remembered.  It never went away, just overshadowed for a time.  It's resurgence is a means of fighting.  Give them a run for their money and maybe one day they will wake up.  Until then, I won't let my kids be trapped in the middle nor risk my one child's health.  I've been in the system in the US.  I've been in private school out of country as well.  There is a world of difference and the people who run this country don't want to fix it.  They want ignorant worker bees.
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« Reply #186 on: July 16, 2009, 08:47:13 PM »

I can understand the reasons why a parent would want to home school. Anyway, teaching is not a science like practicing medicine. Anyone who is bright enough, with a strong desire, and with a good curriculum can teach. Many of them can do a much better job than some of the incompetent state-certified teachers I have had to deal with. The whole certification process is a joke anyway. If an incompetent can pass the test, their certification requirements mean nothing.

That's where you and I fundamentally disagree. I do very strongly believe that educating is a science, and an art, and a lifelong commitment. If the child is not given the fundamentals of learning (which, I think, cannot be really assessed by any standartized tests), then this child will not learn anything beyong flat, primitive, stereotypical ideas about the world.

Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy  Okay, THAT is funny!  That is one of the MAIN reasons WHY people home educate!  Because THAT is exactly what IS being taught in schools here...a flat, primitive, stereotypical idea about the world and how America is the center of it!  I was raised a Third Culture Kid.  I wanted my children to learn about the ENTIRE world, ALL of history, learn several languages, and understand other cultures.
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« Reply #187 on: July 16, 2009, 08:52:32 PM »

In response to your continued analogies about taking a child to a doctor being the same as sending a child to a public school..... If you know that your doctor can't pass a basic skills test on human anatomy and physiology, would you still be taking your child to that doctor?

No, but I won't do the appendectomy myself; rather, I'll find another skilled, trained doctor. Or are you saying that ALL public schols in the USA are failures?


Not all of us have a choice of multiple public schools or moving around the country for the sake of finding a school where a child will be able to learn what they need to know. All public schools are probably not failures, but the sad fact is that public schools in most major metropolitan areas are an insult to the educational system.

-Nick
So FIGHT THIS!!!!!!!!!! Admit that you guys resort to this outrageous "homeschooling" idea because something is basically, esentially, fundamentally WRONG in your country! Don't find excuses, don't agitate,for this weird idea, don't propagate it! And DO something, finally... rather than divide into liberals and conservatives etc.....

You don't live in this country.  People have tried, with no success.  Home education has existed in this country since since for as long as can be remembered.  It never went away, just overshadowed for a time.  It's resurgence is a means of fighting.  Give them a run for their money and maybe one day they will wake up.  Until then, I won't let my kids be trapped in the middle nor risk my one child's health.  I've been in the system in the US.  I've been in private school out of country as well.  There is a world of difference and the people who run this country don't want to fix it.  They want ignorant worker bees.

How come you can't? You are USA...

As for worker bees, yes, exactly... that's what homeschooling basically is about...
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« Reply #188 on: July 16, 2009, 08:53:23 PM »

I can understand the reasons why a parent would want to home school. Anyway, teaching is not a science like practicing medicine. Anyone who is bright enough, with a strong desire, and with a good curriculum can teach. Many of them can do a much better job than some of the incompetent state-certified teachers I have had to deal with. The whole certification process is a joke anyway. If an incompetent can pass the test, their certification requirements mean nothing.

That's where you and I fundamentally disagree. I do very strongly believe that educating is a science, and an art, and a lifelong commitment. If the child is not given the fundamentals of learning (which, I think, cannot be really assessed by any standartized tests), then this child will not learn anything beyong flat, primitive, stereotypical ideas about the world.

Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy  Okay, THAT is funny!  That is one of the MAIN reasons WHY people home educate!  Because THAT is exactly what IS being taught in schools here...a flat, primitive, stereotypical idea about the world and how America is the center of it!  I was raised a Third Culture Kid.  I wanted my children to learn about the ENTIRE world, ALL of history, learn several languages, and understand other cultures.

And you have mastered the seven languages and the world culture?
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« Reply #189 on: July 16, 2009, 08:53:29 PM »

In response to your continued analogies about taking a child to a doctor being the same as sending a child to a public school..... If you know that your doctor can't pass a basic skills test on human anatomy and physiology, would you still be taking your child to that doctor?

No, but I won't do the appendectomy myself; rather, I'll find another skilled, trained doctor. Or are you saying that ALL public schols in the USA are failures?

Not all of us have a choice of multiple public schools or moving around the country for the sake of finding a school where a child will be able to learn what they need to know. All public schools are probably not failures, but the sad fact is that public schools in most major metropolitan areas are an insult to the educational system.

-Nick
So FIGHT THIS!!!!!!!!!! Admit that you guys resort to this outrageous "homeschooling" idea because something is basically, esentially, fundamentally WRONG in your country! Don't find excuses, don't agitate,for this weird idea, don't propagate it! And DO something, finally... rather than divide into liberals and conservatives etc.....

As it is now, the teacher's unions and the NEA have a stranglehold on "education" in this country.  In New York City right now, there is a building where 700 teachers report to - they remain on the payroll because they can't be fired, but they can't be allowed to teach because of the numerous complaints against them, and so they sit there in limbo for years.  Detroit has over 250 teachers currently in this situation.  For years, school systems, both urban and rural have been "passing the trash", so to speak, so that when teachers have complaints, even to the point of sexual assault of students, the union quietly lets them be transferred to another district before legally they can be fired.  How do we fight that?  As soon as there is any sort of campaign to try to lessen the union's power, then you have all these bleeding-heart liberals crying and screaming about how teachers are so bad off and how doing anything to the union is "immoral".

And as for your idea that a "certified" teacher is better than a normal person - I knew a girl who was done with all her classwork for a teaching licence, and only had some more classroom experience to finish before getting her teaching certificate, and she couldn't multiply 3x5.  We had an article here just yesterday or so about how most public elementary school teachers in this area barely know the material they're teaching, particularly in math, and are usually only "one chapter ahead" of their classes.  And you're going to have the nerve to tell me that I can't do better than this?!   That's completely insulting!
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« Reply #190 on: July 16, 2009, 08:55:50 PM »

In response to your continued analogies about taking a child to a doctor being the same as sending a child to a public school..... If you know that your doctor can't pass a basic skills test on human anatomy and physiology, would you still be taking your child to that doctor?

No, but I won't do the appendectomy myself; rather, I'll find another skilled, trained doctor. Or are you saying that ALL public schols in the USA are failures?

Not all of us have a choice of multiple public schools or moving around the country for the sake of finding a school where a child will be able to learn what they need to know. All public schools are probably not failures, but the sad fact is that public schools in most major metropolitan areas are an insult to the educational system.

-Nick
So FIGHT THIS!!!!!!!!!! Admit that you guys resort to this outrageous "homeschooling" idea because something is basically, esentially, fundamentally WRONG in your country! Don't find excuses, don't agitate,for this weird idea, don't propagate it! And DO something, finally... rather than divide into liberals and conservatives etc.....

As it is now, the teacher's unions and the NEA have a stranglehold on "education" in this country.  In New York City right now, there is a building where 700 teachers report to - they remain on the payroll because they can't be fired, but they can't be allowed to teach because of the numerous complaints against them, and so they sit there in limbo for years.  Detroit has over 250 teachers currently in this situation.  For years, school systems, both urban and rural have been "passing the trash", so to speak, so that when teachers have complaints, even to the point of sexual assault of students, the union quietly lets them be transferred to another district before legally they can be fired.  How do we fight that?  As soon as there is any sort of campaign to try to lessen the union's power, then you have all these bleeding-heart liberals crying and screaming about how teachers are so bad off and how doing anything to the union is "immoral".

And as for your idea that a "certified" teacher is better than a normal person - I knew a girl who was done with all her classwork for a teaching licence, and only had some more classroom experience to finish before getting her teaching certificate, and she couldn't multiply 3x5.  We had an article here just yesterday or so about how most public elementary school teachers in this area barely know the material they're teaching, particularly in math, and are usually only "one chapter ahead" of their classes.  And you're going to have the nerve to tell me that I can't do better than this?!   That's completely insulting!

Linnapaw, if you are not a professional teacher, you SHOULD NOT do better than a professional teacher. And if the situation is that you can, than it's deeply abnormal and you should fight, tooth and nail, to bring the situation back to normal, rather than promote ideas that drag it even farther from normal.
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« Reply #191 on: July 16, 2009, 08:58:21 PM »

In response to your continued analogies about taking a child to a doctor being the same as sending a child to a public school..... If you know that your doctor can't pass a basic skills test on human anatomy and physiology, would you still be taking your child to that doctor?

No, but I won't do the appendectomy myself; rather, I'll find another skilled, trained doctor. Or are you saying that ALL public schols in the USA are failures?

Not all of us have a choice of multiple public schools or moving around the country for the sake of finding a school where a child will be able to learn what they need to know. All public schools are probably not failures, but the sad fact is that public schools in most major metropolitan areas are an insult to the educational system.

-Nick
So FIGHT THIS!!!!!!!!!! Admit that you guys resort to this outrageous "homeschooling" idea because something is basically, esentially, fundamentally WRONG in your country! Don't find excuses, don't agitate,for this weird idea, don't propagate it! And DO something, finally... rather than divide into liberals and conservatives etc.....

As it is now, the teacher's unions and the NEA have a stranglehold on "education" in this country.  In New York City right now, there is a building where 700 teachers report to - they remain on the payroll because they can't be fired, but they can't be allowed to teach because of the numerous complaints against them, and so they sit there in limbo for years.  Detroit has over 250 teachers currently in this situation.  For years, school systems, both urban and rural have been "passing the trash", so to speak, so that when teachers have complaints, even to the point of sexual assault of students, the union quietly lets them be transferred to another district before legally they can be fired.  How do we fight that?  As soon as there is any sort of campaign to try to lessen the union's power, then you have all these bleeding-heart liberals crying and screaming about how teachers are so bad off and how doing anything to the union is "immoral".

And as for your idea that a "certified" teacher is better than a normal person - I knew a girl who was done with all her classwork for a teaching licence, and only had some more classroom experience to finish before getting her teaching certificate, and she couldn't multiply 3x5.  We had an article here just yesterday or so about how most public elementary school teachers in this area barely know the material they're teaching, particularly in math, and are usually only "one chapter ahead" of their classes.  And you're going to have the nerve to tell me that I can't do better than this?!   That's completely insulting!

Linnapaw, if you are not a professional teacher, you SHOULD NOT do better than a professional teacher. And if the situation is that you can, than it's deeply abnormal and you should fight, tooth and nail, to bring the situation back to normal, rather than promote ideas that drag it even farther from normal.

Thanks for insulting me some more.  What happened to you leaving the board, btw?
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« Reply #192 on: July 16, 2009, 09:00:22 PM »

In response to your continued analogies about taking a child to a doctor being the same as sending a child to a public school..... If you know that your doctor can't pass a basic skills test on human anatomy and physiology, would you still be taking your child to that doctor?

No, but I won't do the appendectomy myself; rather, I'll find another skilled, trained doctor. Or are you saying that ALL public schols in the USA are failures?

Not all of us have a choice of multiple public schools or moving around the country for the sake of finding a school where a child will be able to learn what they need to know. All public schools are probably not failures, but the sad fact is that public schools in most major metropolitan areas are an insult to the educational system.

-Nick
So FIGHT THIS!!!!!!!!!! Admit that you guys resort to this outrageous "homeschooling" idea because something is basically, esentially, fundamentally WRONG in your country! Don't find excuses, don't agitate,for this weird idea, don't propagate it! And DO something, finally... rather than divide into liberals and conservatives etc.....

As it is now, the teacher's unions and the NEA have a stranglehold on "education" in this country.  In New York City right now, there is a building where 700 teachers report to - they remain on the payroll because they can't be fired, but they can't be allowed to teach because of the numerous complaints against them, and so they sit there in limbo for years.  Detroit has over 250 teachers currently in this situation.  For years, school systems, both urban and rural have been "passing the trash", so to speak, so that when teachers have complaints, even to the point of sexual assault of students, the union quietly lets them be transferred to another district before legally they can be fired.  How do we fight that?  As soon as there is any sort of campaign to try to lessen the union's power, then you have all these bleeding-heart liberals crying and screaming about how teachers are so bad off and how doing anything to the union is "immoral".

And as for your idea that a "certified" teacher is better than a normal person - I knew a girl who was done with all her classwork for a teaching licence, and only had some more classroom experience to finish before getting her teaching certificate, and she couldn't multiply 3x5.  We had an article here just yesterday or so about how most public elementary school teachers in this area barely know the material they're teaching, particularly in math, and are usually only "one chapter ahead" of their classes.  And you're going to have the nerve to tell me that I can't do better than this?!   That's completely insulting!

Linnapaw, if you are not a professional teacher, you SHOULD NOT do better than a professional teacher. And if the situation is that you can, than it's deeply abnormal and you should fight, tooth and nail, to bring the situation back to normal, rather than promote ideas that drag it even farther from normal.

Thanks for insulting me some more.  What happened to you leaving the board, btw?

Where did I insult you? That was never my intent and I honestly do not see how in the world I did. I reconsidered leavinng. Do you want me to leave? I'll leave, then.
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« Reply #193 on: July 16, 2009, 09:02:59 PM »

In response to your continued analogies about taking a child to a doctor being the same as sending a child to a public school..... If you know that your doctor can't pass a basic skills test on human anatomy and physiology, would you still be taking your child to that doctor?

No, but I won't do the appendectomy myself; rather, I'll find another skilled, trained doctor. Or are you saying that ALL public schols in the USA are failures?


Not all of us have a choice of multiple public schools or moving around the country for the sake of finding a school where a child will be able to learn what they need to know. All public schools are probably not failures, but the sad fact is that public schools in most major metropolitan areas are an insult to the educational system.

-Nick
So FIGHT THIS!!!!!!!!!! Admit that you guys resort to this outrageous "homeschooling" idea because something is basically, esentially, fundamentally WRONG in your country! Don't find excuses, don't agitate,for this weird idea, don't propagate it! And DO something, finally... rather than divide into liberals and conservatives etc.....

You don't live in this country.  People have tried, with no success.  Home education has existed in this country since since for as long as can be remembered.  It never went away, just overshadowed for a time.  It's resurgence is a means of fighting.  Give them a run for their money and maybe one day they will wake up.  Until then, I won't let my kids be trapped in the middle nor risk my one child's health.  I've been in the system in the US.  I've been in private school out of country as well.  There is a world of difference and the people who run this country don't want to fix it.  They want ignorant worker bees.

How come you can't? You are USA...

As for worker bees, yes, exactly... that's what homeschooling basically is about...

We are the USA?  What do you really think that means?  That we can snap our fingers and our government does what we want it to?  Is that what you learned in school?

haha...no, that is what the public school system here is about.  Many homeschoolers are winning awards, scholarships, internships, and earning doctorates.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 09:03:50 PM by Etsi » Logged
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« Reply #194 on: July 16, 2009, 09:06:39 PM »

In response to your continued analogies about taking a child to a doctor being the same as sending a child to a public school..... If you know that your doctor can't pass a basic skills test on human anatomy and physiology, would you still be taking your child to that doctor?

No, but I won't do the appendectomy myself; rather, I'll find another skilled, trained doctor. Or are you saying that ALL public schols in the USA are failures?


Not all of us have a choice of multiple public schools or moving around the country for the sake of finding a school where a child will be able to learn what they need to know. All public schools are probably not failures, but the sad fact is that public schools in most major metropolitan areas are an insult to the educational system.

-Nick
So FIGHT THIS!!!!!!!!!! Admit that you guys resort to this outrageous "homeschooling" idea because something is basically, esentially, fundamentally WRONG in your country! Don't find excuses, don't agitate,for this weird idea, don't propagate it! And DO something, finally... rather than divide into liberals and conservatives etc.....

You don't live in this country.  People have tried, with no success.  Home education has existed in this country since since for as long as can be remembered.  It never went away, just overshadowed for a time.  It's resurgence is a means of fighting.  Give them a run for their money and maybe one day they will wake up.  Until then, I won't let my kids be trapped in the middle nor risk my one child's health.  I've been in the system in the US.  I've been in private school out of country as well.  There is a world of difference and the people who run this country don't want to fix it.  They want ignorant worker bees.

How come you can't? You are USA...

As for worker bees, yes, exactly... that's what homeschooling basically is about...

We are the USA?  What do you really think that means?  That we can snap our fingers and our government does what we want it to?  Is that what you learned in school?

haha...no, that is what the public school system here is about.  Homeschoolers are winning awards, scholarships, internships, and earning doctorates.
Yes. As a foreigner, who came to the USA in 1990 from the former USSR, I honestly thought that you, "the people," ARE the USA. And later, I began to doubt it, and got hammered: what do you know... And every time I say, people, fix it, -  I am hammered by exclamations like, "it's too complicated for you to understand," or "you don't like it here - go back..."
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« Reply #195 on: July 16, 2009, 09:09:33 PM »

I can understand the reasons why a parent would want to home school. Anyway, teaching is not a science like practicing medicine. Anyone who is bright enough, with a strong desire, and with a good curriculum can teach. Many of them can do a much better job than some of the incompetent state-certified teachers I have had to deal with. The whole certification process is a joke anyway. If an incompetent can pass the test, their certification requirements mean nothing.

That's where you and I fundamentally disagree. I do very strongly believe that educating is a science, and an art, and a lifelong commitment. If the child is not given the fundamentals of learning (which, I think, cannot be really assessed by any standartized tests), then this child will not learn anything beyong flat, primitive, stereotypical ideas about the world.

Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy  Okay, THAT is funny!  That is one of the MAIN reasons WHY people home educate!  Because THAT is exactly what IS being taught in schools here...a flat, primitive, stereotypical idea about the world and how America is the center of it!  I was raised a Third Culture Kid.  I wanted my children to learn about the ENTIRE world, ALL of history, learn several languages, and understand other cultures.

And you have mastered the seven languages and the world culture?

Did I say "seven"?  I'm afraid I'm a product of the school system and thus wasn't so blessed.  Home education also permits our family the ability and time to buy appropriate curriculum and hire teachers that are proficient.  Something we wouldn't get, nor have time for, if they were in the school system.
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« Reply #196 on: July 16, 2009, 09:10:51 PM »

Did I say "seven"?  I'm afraid I'm a product of the school system and thus wasn't so blessed.  Home education also permits our family the ability and time to buy appropriate curriculum and hire teachers that are proficient.  Something we wouldn't get, nor have time for, if they were in the school system.

Hire teachers?
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« Reply #197 on: July 16, 2009, 09:12:48 PM »

In response to your continued analogies about taking a child to a doctor being the same as sending a child to a public school..... If you know that your doctor can't pass a basic skills test on human anatomy and physiology, would you still be taking your child to that doctor?

No, but I won't do the appendectomy myself; rather, I'll find another skilled, trained doctor. Or are you saying that ALL public schols in the USA are failures?

Not all of us have a choice of multiple public schools or moving around the country for the sake of finding a school where a child will be able to learn what they need to know. All public schools are probably not failures, but the sad fact is that public schools in most major metropolitan areas are an insult to the educational system.

-Nick
So FIGHT THIS!!!!!!!!!! Admit that you guys resort to this outrageous "homeschooling" idea because something is basically, esentially, fundamentally WRONG in your country! Don't find excuses, don't agitate,for this weird idea, don't propagate it! And DO something, finally... rather than divide into liberals and conservatives etc.....

As it is now, the teacher's unions and the NEA have a stranglehold on "education" in this country.  In New York City right now, there is a building where 700 teachers report to - they remain on the payroll because they can't be fired, but they can't be allowed to teach because of the numerous complaints against them, and so they sit there in limbo for years.  Detroit has over 250 teachers currently in this situation.  For years, school systems, both urban and rural have been "passing the trash", so to speak, so that when teachers have complaints, even to the point of sexual assault of students, the union quietly lets them be transferred to another district before legally they can be fired.  How do we fight that?  As soon as there is any sort of campaign to try to lessen the union's power, then you have all these bleeding-heart liberals crying and screaming about how teachers are so bad off and how doing anything to the union is "immoral".

And as for your idea that a "certified" teacher is better than a normal person - I knew a girl who was done with all her classwork for a teaching licence, and only had some more classroom experience to finish before getting her teaching certificate, and she couldn't multiply 3x5.  We had an article here just yesterday or so about how most public elementary school teachers in this area barely know the material they're teaching, particularly in math, and are usually only "one chapter ahead" of their classes.  And you're going to have the nerve to tell me that I can't do better than this?!   That's completely insulting!

Linnapaw, if you are not a professional teacher, you SHOULD NOT do better than a professional teacher. And if the situation is that you can, than it's deeply abnormal and you should fight, tooth and nail, to bring the situation back to normal, rather than promote ideas that drag it even farther from normal.

Thanks for insulting me some more.  What happened to you leaving the board, btw?

Where did I insult you? That was never my intent and I honestly do not see how in the world I did. I reconsidered leavinng. Do you want me to leave? I'll leave, then.

Because apparently you believe I'm not smart enough to do at least as good of a job as your precious "professional" teachers.   I guess having a piece of paper, like you do, saying that you are "qualified" to teach is the end all be all when it comes to children's educations.   I come from a long line of teachers, and I've lived in that culture.  When my grandmother got her teaching certificate she was very young, and it was a SIX MONTH program.  And she did a better job of being a teacher than most do today.  But you're going to say - without knowing my background or ANYTHING - that I couldn't do at least as good of job with a college education with my own children, should I choose to homeschool.  That's what's really insulting.

And I'm not saying that you should leave - I'm just saying that what you pulled a couple days ago with all the "goodbye" etc, was just a load of crocodile tears and done as a stunt.  It's amazing that me, being pretty new to the board, feels like I hardly can post without you jumping on my back about how wrong I am about everything.
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« Reply #198 on: July 16, 2009, 09:21:12 PM »

Yes. As a foreigner, who came to the USA in 1990 from the former USSR, I honestly thought that you, "the people," ARE the USA. And later, I began to doubt it, and got hammered: what do you know... And every time I say, people, fix it, -  I am hammered by exclamations like, "it's too complicated for you to understand," or "you don't like it here - go back..."

Given the way you come across, it is quite possible that they took you as bashing our country...which would be unacceptable anywhere in the world.

The truth of the matter is, no, that is not the way it is.  It is more complicated.  Our country is not what it once was.  All countries change, ours has also.  Many of us talk about what it once was, but that is not necessarily how it is.  Many of us compare it to other countries and even when it compares as more "free" in some ways, it may be "free" only in comparison.  Also, yes, there have been foreigners that have come here and stated that it is more "free" in their country of origin in certain areas.  I fully believe this as well (not all of us are US-centric, even if we are proud of our heritage).  There are people leaving the US for this very reason.
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« Reply #199 on: July 16, 2009, 09:24:08 PM »

Where did I insult you? That was never my intent and I honestly do not see how in the world I did. I reconsidered leavinng. Do you want me to leave? I'll leave, then.


Because apparently you believe I'm not smart enough to do at least as good of a job as your precious "professional" teachers.   I guess having a piece of paper, like you do, saying that you are "qualified" to teach is the end all be all when it comes to children's educations.   I come from a long line of teachers, and I've lived in that culture.  When my grandmother got her teaching certificate she was very young, and it was a SIX MONTH program.  And she did a better job of being a teacher than most do today.  But you're going to say - without knowing my background or ANYTHING - that I couldn't do at least as good of job with a college education with my own children, should I choose to homeschool.  That's what's really insulting.

And I'm not saying that you should leave - I'm just saying that what you pulled a couple days ago with all the "goodbye" etc, was just a load of crocodile tears and done as a stunt.  It's amazing that me, being pretty new to the board, feels like I hardly can post without you jumping on my back about how wrong I am about everything.

I never intended to say that you or anyone else is "not smart enough." It's just that I have this notion, maybe a wrong one, that teaching children at schools, giving them education, is a very peculiar thing, something that demands a very special education and training. Whatever it used to be in the past, might not really be of such an importance, because the past is the past. I am just expressing my opinion, no more than that.

I was never intending to jump on your back because I do not even know you. I have a number of good friens and tough adversaries on this board, but you are not one of either. I am very sorry if, for whatever reason, you saw something personal in my replies to your posts.
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« Reply #200 on: July 16, 2009, 09:37:01 PM »

I can see that this thread is only becoming a hindrance to us all, so I'm going to lock it for a while.
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« Reply #201 on: July 16, 2009, 09:41:08 PM »

The original tread was locked, but, if I may, I have a few things to say..

*****************************************************

Yes. As a foreigner, who came to the USA in 1990 from the former USSR, I honestly thought that you, "the people," ARE the USA. And later, I began to doubt it, and got hammered: what do you know... And every time I say, people, fix it, -  I am hammered by exclamations like, "it's too complicated for you to understand," or "you don't like it here - go back..."

Given the way you come across, it is quite possible that they took you as bashing our country...which would be unacceptable anywhere in the world.

The truth of the matter is, no, that is not the way it is.  It is more complicated.  Our country is not what it once was.  All countries change, ours has also.  Many of us talk about what it once was, but that is not necessarily how it is.  Many of us compare it to other countries and even when it compares as more "free" in some ways, it may be "free" only in comparison.  Also, yes, there have been foreigners that have come here and stated that it is more "free" in their country of origin in certain areas.  I fully believe this as well (not all of us are US-centric, even if we are proud of our heritage).  There are people leaving the US for this very reason.

I don't know about who is more "free," but I do know that you guys are the mightiest country in the world, militarily, and because of that you dictate a lot to other countries, particularly when it is about education. As a university teacher who works in the USA but tries to keep in touch with what's going on in my home country, Ukraine, I witnessed a lot of things... for example, the "credit-module" system, and some other things that are currently being implanted, very hastily and with very poor results, in Ukraine... And we, actually, have a lot of positive experience to share, but it is all trampled down, and the wackiest ideas that arise here are gladly spread over there. Well, thank God, not yet the "homeschooling," but just you wait...

Generally, I am afraid that the homeschooling simply prepares "proles," the obedient mass of people who will accept anything mythological, anything the TV brings to homes, like 9-11/10-12/11=13... (sorry, that is already a breach into the Politics...)
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« Reply #202 on: July 16, 2009, 09:50:06 PM »

This is all I will say, as the thread was locked:

Though I respect you holding to your opinion on education, I believe that you have a very limited understanding, if not a complete misunderstanding, of what home education is. 
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« Reply #203 on: July 16, 2009, 09:53:37 PM »

This is all I will say, as the thread was locked:

Though I respect you holding to your opinion on education, I believe that you have a very limited understanding, if not a complete misunderstanding, of what home education is. 

All Iam saying is, you cannot omit the professionally educated teacher, and the environment of school.
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« Reply #204 on: July 16, 2009, 10:11:44 PM »

We don't.  We try to better prepare them for higher education which takes place schools called colleges and universities Wink 
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« Reply #205 on: July 17, 2009, 12:42:07 AM »

Since this thread appears to have been opened as a direct attempt to circumvent the lock on an existing thread, this thread is also locked pending EofK's review.  Please don't open yet another thread to discuss this topic.
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« Reply #206 on: July 18, 2009, 08:26:37 AM »

This topic is now unlocked again.  Please, everyone, I request that you debate respectfully with one another.  There is no need for name calling and berating each other.  Thank you.

EofK, Family Forum Moderator
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« Reply #207 on: July 18, 2009, 08:50:26 AM »

Thank you so much, Mrs. Y.!

I have written this message (below) some time ago and hoped that it would initiate a private exchange of opinions and experiences. But, because the topic is now unlocked, I believe I could as well post it here.

*****************************************
Dear Etsi, Linnapaw, Calligraphqueen, Livefreeordie, Quinault, and other parents who are homeschooling,


Without any intention to attack or insult you, or even to engage in a fierce debate, may I just ask you some questions about homeschooling?

I am wondering, how does it work? Most importantly, how can you be sure that when you explain various concepts of mathematics, science, humanities, language etc., your children really get a real understanding of them?

To this very day, I remember some wonderful teachers who worked with me when I was in middle and high school (in Kiev of the 1970-s). A woman who taught chemistry. A man, then 28 (who seemed quite old to us kids!), who taught math: I'll never forget his great sense of humor, which helped him greatly to explain even some pretty difficult theorems and their applications. An older guy who taught physics. A very young girl, just graduated from the university, who taught biology. They were all so different, each with his or her unique style, voice, manners, habits, with their own peculiar sayings, their unique funny, humorous sides. I cannot even imagine being deprived of all that, and I honestly cannot understand, just how the educational work of one parent or two parents can be equal or similar - or BETTER! - than the work of this big, diverse, highly dedicated team of professional pedagogues. Are you sure it can?

And another question. Why this confidence that the American public school teachers are so bad? My daughter attended many US public schools. Between 1991 and 1998, when we lived in Seattle, she was transfered by the Seattle school district to several elementary schols - she had a new school every year, because such was the policy of the school district. We, the parents, did not understand that, but just complied. Maryana suffered, of course, because of the need to adjust to new school every time. Yet, overall, it turned out to be a great experience for her. She had many wonderful teachers. Again, to this day we recall her math teacher, Mr. Lauer (whom the kids of course nicknamed Mr. Flower), who was just a super class professional. Then she went to high school in Seattle, and then to the high school in the Mississippi town where we live right now. And again, there were some amazing, magnificent teachers! Her physics teacher at Starkville high school was a former university professor, a Ph.D. Her biology teacher was a woman who had two Masters' degrees, one in biology and one in English, and you can well imagine how demanding she was about writing - she actually taught Maryana to write, being as good at that job as any highly professional English teacher would be. How can all that be taken away from a child or an adolescent?

Now, about the tests. Are you, and other homeschoolers, sure that these tests reflect the reality? I would perhaps think that homeschooled children generally take these tests well simply because they are taught to take tests. And they are, as a group, perhaps more disciplined, more compliant than the "horde" of wild public school kids. But what do they really LEARN in science, math, humanities, language, art, drama, social disciplines? Again, my personal encounters with homeschooled kids at my university were INVARIABLY tragic. I NEVER saw even one homeschooled kid to be able to grasp elementary biology, microbiology, human A@P (those are the subjects I teach to non-majors). They were always lost, had adjustment problems, depression, etc., and zero study skills...

I would be grateful if you briefly tell me about some details in your own homeschooling. How does it work, generally: what do you and your children do during lessons? Is there a supervision from the side of a professionally trained teacher? How regular is this supervision? How do you take care of the social needs of oyur homeschooled children, how do you teach them to adjust to groups, interact with groups?

Many thanks in advance for your answers. Again, please forgive me if you saw ANY inclination on my part to attack or insult you. I really can come across as argumentative and passionate, but I really, truly do not want to hurt any person I am talking with, ever.

Best wishes to you,

George Pinchuk (Heorhij)
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« Reply #208 on: July 19, 2009, 02:30:57 PM »

Thank you so much, Mrs. Y.!

I am wondering, how does it work? Most importantly, how can you be sure that when you explain various concepts of mathematics, science, humanities, language etc., your children really get a real understanding of them?


Basically it works in our house this way.  We studied established curriculums for about 2 years and picked what we thought best fit our family.  The curriculum we use tends to be used in better private schools and charter schools.  Because our kids get one on one attention, can learn at a pace that suits them individually, they are far ahead of their peers in public school. 

As far as mathematics, science, humanities, language, etc.   I was a Math major in college, my wife was a biology major and french major.  We are both more educated in those subjects than any elementary school teacher.  Teaching the concepts for the grades our young children are in is easy.

That's the short answer.
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« Reply #209 on: July 19, 2009, 02:42:50 PM »

Thank you so much, Mrs. Y.!

I am wondering, how does it work? Most importantly, how can you be sure that when you explain various concepts of mathematics, science, humanities, language etc., your children really get a real understanding of them?


Basically it works in our house this way.  We studied established curriculums for about 2 years and picked what we thought best fit our family.  The curriculum we use tends to be used in better private schools and charter schools.  Because our kids get one on one attention, can learn at a pace that suits them individually, they are far ahead of their peers in public school. 

As far as mathematics, science, humanities, language, etc.   I was a Math major in college, my wife was a biology major and french major.  We are both more educated in those subjects than any elementary school teacher.  Teaching the concepts for the grades our young children are in is easy.

That's the short answer.

Thank you! But how about the social, interactive aspect? And how about the subjects you and your wife were not majoring in - language, art, humanities, social sciences? Your kids need some sort of foundation in those areas right now - do you think you can build this foundation professionally?

Also, could you tell more about the lessons. How many per day, per week? How long are they? When do you have these lessons? Any recesses? Homework? Tests, quizzes?

And what is going to happen when the kids are in the grades when it is NOT easy to teach them?
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« Reply #210 on: July 19, 2009, 02:46:52 PM »

And since all studies I've ever seen show home schooled children do better than public school children, God Bless them for trying.
If you'll read the Isenberg study (and with your being an educator, I should hope that you have access to educational research), you'll find that he reports that the only data we have for comparing home-schooled students to public-school students are SAT scores and surveys. SAT scores are, of course, available only for those students who take the SAT, and as I'm sure you're aware, there are quite a number of students in both groups who never take that test, either because they don't go to college or because they enroll in a community college and either end their education there or use their GPA there to transfer to a four-year university. In addition, the surveys are voluntary, and I would hope you are aware of the inherent problems in self-reporting.

So these studies are far from irrelevant; in fact, they quite undermine your entire argument, by showing that the data used to "prove" that home-schooled students are better educated are faulty at best.

Seems a bit of a stretch to say this study undermines anything.  It just seems to clarify what these studies show and don't show.

I brought those studies up only to exhibit that the only studies I've found show home-school students actually test better than public schooled ones.  You and anyone else can make your own conclusions from that. And I agree, it doesn't mean they are necessarily better educated, although at a minimum it is at least circumstantial evidence that they might be.  But since it's the only data out there, it is fair to recognize its limitations.

My point is, show me a study where home-school students do worse or are worse off than publicly educated ones.  You can't produce one. So you seem to just keep playing "gotcha".

And finally, I'm not trying to "prove" home-schooling better educates children.  I've said more than once its no for everybody. Home schooling has been a good choice for our family.  Our kids excel, they get to do and see far more than they would in public school, and we've never seen any study to show they would be harmed or at any disadvantage for us doing this.  In fact, when comparing them to their peers, they excel.

If you have the desire, time, and aptitude to home-school your children, do it.  But if you get overwhelmed or know you aren't doing a good job, put them in the best school you can and be the most supportive parents you can.  Your children will be fine.

Again, home-schooling isn't for everybody.  Do you believe home-schooling isn't acceptable under any circumstance?

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« Reply #211 on: July 19, 2009, 02:58:08 PM »

Thank you so much, Mrs. Y.!

I am wondering, how does it work? Most importantly, how can you be sure that when you explain various concepts of mathematics, science, humanities, language etc., your children really get a real understanding of them?


Basically it works in our house this way.  We studied established curriculums for about 2 years and picked what we thought best fit our family.  The curriculum we use tends to be used in better private schools and charter schools.  Because our kids get one on one attention, can learn at a pace that suits them individually, they are far ahead of their peers in public school. 

As far as mathematics, science, humanities, language, etc.   I was a Math major in college, my wife was a biology major and french major.  We are both more educated in those subjects than any elementary school teacher.  Teaching the concepts for the grades our young children are in is easy.

That's the short answer.

Thank you! But how about the social, interactive aspect? And how about the subjects you and your wife were not majoring in - language, art, humanities, social sciences? Your kids need some sort of foundation in those areas right now - do you think you can build this foundation professionally?

Also, could you tell more about the lessons. How many per day, per week? How long are they? When do you have these lessons? Any recesses? Homework? Tests, quizzes?

And what is going to happen when the kids are in the grades when it is NOT easy to teach them?

They are in club sports year round where they interact with hundreds of children who are well-educated, motivated and very social. In addition they are very involved at church with children of all levels.  In both, they do well.

If you read my post, my wife did major in a language, French. As far as art, I teach a course on using arts to overcome PTSD and other emotional issues and have lectured on this at Universities, large organization, etc.  I teach my kids music, etc. They also take private classes from a local private school art teacher.

My children get a full elementary curriculum, again for anything we teach we are definitely if anything over educated.

My kids are in one-on-one lessons about 3-4 hours a day.  They need about 1-2 hours for homework.  The rest of the day is playing, chores, prayers, club sports, etc. They have daily quizzes.  I'd have to check with my wife for test schedules, etc.

We'll probably teach them up through the 8th grade.  At least that is our plan for now.  We might also go past this and hire tutors for the subjects we need assistance with.

We are close friends with a guidance counselor in the best public school system in our area, and his wife is a teacher.  He has checked our curriculum and what we expose our kids to, and he has unequivocally told us they are far ahead of their peers.

We never hide our heads in the sand.  We always ask for help when we need it, and we also have what we are doing reviewed by professionals, namely, our friends who are guidance counselors, and our 2-year olds godmother who is an elementary school teacher with about 27 years experience.  And many others although they are our main contacts.

Also, with the help of our friends, we routinely reference the local public school curriculum to make sure that a) we are covering everything that needs covered and b) that are kids are always ahead of where they would be in public school.
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« Reply #212 on: July 19, 2009, 03:10:37 PM »

If you read my post, my wife did major in a language, French.

Yes, but I meant English.

We are close friends with a guidance counselor in the best public school system in our area, and his wife is a teacher.  He has checked our curriculum and what we expose our kids to, and he has unequivocally told us they are far ahead of their peers.

We never hide our heads in the sand.  We always ask for help when we need it, and we also have what we are doing reviewed by professionals, namely, our friends who are guidance counselors, and our 2-year olds godmother who is an elementary school teacher with about 27 years experience.  And many others although they are our main contacts.

Also, with the help of our friends, we routinely reference the local public school curriculum to make sure that a) we are covering everything that needs covered and b) that are kids are always ahead of where they would be in public school.

What you are saying sounds very good. But I am still not convinced, just what good does it do to children to deprive them of the EXPERIENCE of learning various subjects from a team of professionally trained pedagogues, experts in various areas, and of the EXPERIENCE of learning how to interact with other kids during their learning at school. Except, of course, when schools where the team of professional educators works are simply nonexistent in your area. But again, I am not sure that the proper answer is homeschooling rather than changing this situation, making sure that there AE good schools with highly professional teachers...
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« Reply #213 on: July 19, 2009, 03:14:45 PM »

If you read my post, my wife did major in a language, French.

Yes, but I meant English.

We are close friends with a guidance counselor in the best public school system in our area, and his wife is a teacher.  He has checked our curriculum and what we expose our kids to, and he has unequivocally told us they are far ahead of their peers.

We never hide our heads in the sand.  We always ask for help when we need it, and we also have what we are doing reviewed by professionals, namely, our friends who are guidance counselors, and our 2-year olds godmother who is an elementary school teacher with about 27 years experience.  And many others although they are our main contacts.

Also, with the help of our friends, we routinely reference the local public school curriculum to make sure that a) we are covering everything that needs covered and b) that are kids are always ahead of where they would be in public school.

What you are saying sounds very good. But I am still not convinced, just what good does it do to children to deprive them of the EXPERIENCE of learning various subjects from a team of professionally trained pedagogues, experts in various areas, and of the EXPERIENCE of learning how to interact with other kids during their learning at school. Except, of course, when schools where the team of professional educators works are simply nonexistent in your area. But again, I am not sure that the proper answer is homeschooling rather than changing this situation, making sure that there AE good schools with highly professional teachers...

Since you don't have young children and thus don't have to make a decision on home-school vs. public school at the moment, and since we are already home-schooling and very happy with it, we don't really have to worry about convincing each other of anything!  Wink
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« Reply #214 on: July 19, 2009, 03:17:26 PM »

If you read my post, my wife did major in a language, French.

Yes, but I meant English.

We are close friends with a guidance counselor in the best public school system in our area, and his wife is a teacher.  He has checked our curriculum and what we expose our kids to, and he has unequivocally told us they are far ahead of their peers.

We never hide our heads in the sand.  We always ask for help when we need it, and we also have what we are doing reviewed by professionals, namely, our friends who are guidance counselors, and our 2-year olds godmother who is an elementary school teacher with about 27 years experience.  And many others although they are our main contacts.

Also, with the help of our friends, we routinely reference the local public school curriculum to make sure that a) we are covering everything that needs covered and b) that are kids are always ahead of where they would be in public school.

What you are saying sounds very good. But I am still not convinced, just what good does it do to children to deprive them of the EXPERIENCE of learning various subjects from a team of professionally trained pedagogues, experts in various areas, and of the EXPERIENCE of learning how to interact with other kids during their learning at school. Except, of course, when schools where the team of professional educators works are simply nonexistent in your area. But again, I am not sure that the proper answer is homeschooling rather than changing this situation, making sure that there AE good schools with highly professional teachers...

Since you don't have young children and thus don't have to make a decision on home-school vs. public school at the moment, and since we are already home-schooling and very happy with it, we don't really have to worry about convincing each other of anything!  Wink


But I have plenty of victims of homeschooling as my current students...
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« Reply #215 on: July 19, 2009, 03:49:30 PM »

If you read my post, my wife did major in a language, French.

Yes, but I meant English.

We are close friends with a guidance counselor in the best public school system in our area, and his wife is a teacher.  He has checked our curriculum and what we expose our kids to, and he has unequivocally told us they are far ahead of their peers.

We never hide our heads in the sand.  We always ask for help when we need it, and we also have what we are doing reviewed by professionals, namely, our friends who are guidance counselors, and our 2-year olds godmother who is an elementary school teacher with about 27 years experience.  And many others although they are our main contacts.

Also, with the help of our friends, we routinely reference the local public school curriculum to make sure that a) we are covering everything that needs covered and b) that are kids are always ahead of where they would be in public school.

What you are saying sounds very good. But I am still not convinced, just what good does it do to children to deprive them of the EXPERIENCE of learning various subjects from a team of professionally trained pedagogues, experts in various areas, and of the EXPERIENCE of learning how to interact with other kids during their learning at school. Except, of course, when schools where the team of professional educators works are simply nonexistent in your area. But again, I am not sure that the proper answer is homeschooling rather than changing this situation, making sure that there AE good schools with highly professional teachers...

Since you don't have young children and thus don't have to make a decision on home-school vs. public school at the moment, and since we are already home-schooling and very happy with it, we don't really have to worry about convincing each other of anything!  Wink


But I have plenty of victims of homeschooling as my current students...

And I have plenty of victims of public schooling in the prisons I visit every week! Wink

In fact, I've yet to meet anyone in prison who was either home-schooled or private schooled.
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« Reply #216 on: July 19, 2009, 04:30:19 PM »

If you read my post, my wife did major in a language, French.

Yes, but I meant English.

We are close friends with a guidance counselor in the best public school system in our area, and his wife is a teacher.  He has checked our curriculum and what we expose our kids to, and he has unequivocally told us they are far ahead of their peers.

We never hide our heads in the sand.  We always ask for help when we need it, and we also have what we are doing reviewed by professionals, namely, our friends who are guidance counselors, and our 2-year olds godmother who is an elementary school teacher with about 27 years experience.  And many others although they are our main contacts.

Also, with the help of our friends, we routinely reference the local public school curriculum to make sure that a) we are covering everything that needs covered and b) that are kids are always ahead of where they would be in public school.

What you are saying sounds very good. But I am still not convinced, just what good does it do to children to deprive them of the EXPERIENCE of learning various subjects from a team of professionally trained pedagogues, experts in various areas, and of the EXPERIENCE of learning how to interact with other kids during their learning at school. Except, of course, when schools where the team of professional educators works are simply nonexistent in your area. But again, I am not sure that the proper answer is homeschooling rather than changing this situation, making sure that there AE good schools with highly professional teachers...

Since you don't have young children and thus don't have to make a decision on home-school vs. public school at the moment, and since we are already home-schooling and very happy with it, we don't really have to worry about convincing each other of anything!  Wink


But I have plenty of victims of homeschooling as my current students...

And I have plenty of victims of public schooling in the prisons I visit every week! Wink

In fact, I've yet to meet anyone in prison who was either home-schooled or private schooled.

Maybe not, but I bet you meet a lot of home-schooled people in psychiatrist waiting rooms.
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« Reply #217 on: July 19, 2009, 05:34:57 PM »

One observation: I have plenty of kids who do badly and are public or private school graduates, but in their sample, a rather high proportion are doing badly because they are lazy, wanton, partying too much etc. On the other hand, the kids who do badly and are home schooled are usually very sincerely INTENDING to study and trying to study - but they do not know HOW to study. Among them, I never see any lazy or wanton or "over-partying" types. They want to do well, they make efforts. And always, invariably, in vain. They are overwhelmed with the volume of the material, and they do not understand, just why is it that their professors do not tell them "exactly what do I need to know for the test," plus they have very serious adjustment problems, and always a kind of depression. That has been my experience. Of course, one can say that I am teaching at a small university, and that I never did strictly statistical studies etc. etc. etc. But I am honest. Again, I met ALL KINDS of kids who were public and private school graduates as far as their academic success at my university goes - outstanding, excellent, good, mediocre, and bad. But I am yet to meet ONE homeschooled kid whose success would be anything but bad.
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« Reply #218 on: July 19, 2009, 05:47:14 PM »

If you read my post, my wife did major in a language, French.

Yes, but I meant English.

We are close friends with a guidance counselor in the best public school system in our area, and his wife is a teacher.  He has checked our curriculum and what we expose our kids to, and he has unequivocally told us they are far ahead of their peers.

We never hide our heads in the sand.  We always ask for help when we need it, and we also have what we are doing reviewed by professionals, namely, our friends who are guidance counselors, and our 2-year olds godmother who is an elementary school teacher with about 27 years experience.  And many others although they are our main contacts.

Also, with the help of our friends, we routinely reference the local public school curriculum to make sure that a) we are covering everything that needs covered and b) that are kids are always ahead of where they would be in public school.

What you are saying sounds very good. But I am still not convinced, just what good does it do to children to deprive them of the EXPERIENCE of learning various subjects from a team of professionally trained pedagogues, experts in various areas, and of the EXPERIENCE of learning how to interact with other kids during their learning at school. Except, of course, when schools where the team of professional educators works are simply nonexistent in your area. But again, I am not sure that the proper answer is homeschooling rather than changing this situation, making sure that there AE good schools with highly professional teachers...

Since you don't have young children and thus don't have to make a decision on home-school vs. public school at the moment, and since we are already home-schooling and very happy with it, we don't really have to worry about convincing each other of anything!  Wink


But I have plenty of victims of homeschooling as my current students...

And I have plenty of victims of public schooling in the prisons I visit every week! Wink

In fact, I've yet to meet anyone in prison who was either home-schooled or private schooled.

Maybe not, but I bet you meet a lot of home-schooled people in psychiatrist waiting rooms.

Sitting right next to the public schooled ones, and private schooled ones, and every other type of schooling.

Find me ONE study that shows ill effects from home schooling. Just one, so at least we can discuss facts as opposed to fear mongering and prejudice.
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« Reply #219 on: July 19, 2009, 05:50:22 PM »

One observation: I have plenty of kids who do badly and are public or private school graduates, but in their sample, a rather high proportion are doing badly because they are lazy, wanton, partying too much etc. On the other hand, the kids who do badly and are home schooled are usually very sincerely INTENDING to study and trying to study - but they do not know HOW to study. Among them, I never see any lazy or wanton or "over-partying" types. They want to do well, they make efforts. And always, invariably, in vain. They are overwhelmed with the volume of the material, and they do not understand, just why is it that their professors do not tell them "exactly what do I need to know for the test," plus they have very serious adjustment problems, and always a kind of depression. That has been my experience. Of course, one can say that I am teaching at a small university, and that I never did strictly statistical studies etc. etc. etc. But I am honest. Again, I met ALL KINDS of kids who were public and private school graduates as far as their academic success at my university goes - outstanding, excellent, good, mediocre, and bad. But I am yet to meet ONE homeschooled kid whose success would be anything but bad.

You do teach at an extremely small college and have no doubt had very few home schooled students in your classroom, i.e. if their are 1100 students attending, you probably don't have more than 20 or so home schooled students in the whole college.  And if you don't mind, how do you know the background of your students, i.e. were they private schooled, home schooled or public schooled.  I can't remember once in four years of college at Vanderbilt where a professor asked me whether I was home schooled, private schooled or public schooled.
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« Reply #220 on: July 19, 2009, 06:10:51 PM »

One observation: I have plenty of kids who do badly and are public or private school graduates, but in their sample, a rather high proportion are doing badly because they are lazy, wanton, partying too much etc. On the other hand, the kids who do badly and are home schooled are usually very sincerely INTENDING to study and trying to study - but they do not know HOW to study. Among them, I never see any lazy or wanton or "over-partying" types. They want to do well, they make efforts. And always, invariably, in vain. They are overwhelmed with the volume of the material, and they do not understand, just why is it that their professors do not tell them "exactly what do I need to know for the test," plus they have very serious adjustment problems, and always a kind of depression. That has been my experience. Of course, one can say that I am teaching at a small university, and that I never did strictly statistical studies etc. etc. etc. But I am honest. Again, I met ALL KINDS of kids who were public and private school graduates as far as their academic success at my university goes - outstanding, excellent, good, mediocre, and bad. But I am yet to meet ONE homeschooled kid whose success would be anything but bad.

You do teach at an extremely small college and have no doubt had very few home schooled students in your classroom, i.e. if their are 1100 students attending, you probably don't have more than 20 or so home schooled students in the whole college.  And if you don't mind, how do you know the background of your students, i.e. were they private schooled, home schooled or public schooled.  I never once in four years of college at Vanderbilt had a professor ask me what type of education I had prior to college, and Vanderbilt itself was a pretty small school.

I always ask my students to fill a questionnaire before we start a new semester. It includes the question, what was their secondary education, from which secondary school have they graduated.
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« Reply #221 on: July 19, 2009, 06:16:24 PM »

One observation: I have plenty of kids who do badly and are public or private school graduates, but in their sample, a rather high proportion are doing badly because they are lazy, wanton, partying too much etc. On the other hand, the kids who do badly and are home schooled are usually very sincerely INTENDING to study and trying to study - but they do not know HOW to study. Among them, I never see any lazy or wanton or "over-partying" types. They want to do well, they make efforts. And always, invariably, in vain. They are overwhelmed with the volume of the material, and they do not understand, just why is it that their professors do not tell them "exactly what do I need to know for the test," plus they have very serious adjustment problems, and always a kind of depression. That has been my experience. Of course, one can say that I am teaching at a small university, and that I never did strictly statistical studies etc. etc. etc. But I am honest. Again, I met ALL KINDS of kids who were public and private school graduates as far as their academic success at my university goes - outstanding, excellent, good, mediocre, and bad. But I am yet to meet ONE homeschooled kid whose success would be anything but bad.

You do teach at an extremely small college and have no doubt had very few home schooled students in your classroom, i.e. if their are 1100 students attending, you probably don't have more than 20 or so home schooled students in the whole college.  And if you don't mind, how do you know the background of your students, i.e. were they private schooled, home schooled or public schooled.  I never once in four years of college at Vanderbilt had a professor ask me what type of education I had prior to college, and Vanderbilt itself was a pretty small school.

I always ask my students to fill a questionnaire before we start a new semester. It includes the question, what was their secondary education, from which secondary school have they graduated.
So how many home schooled students have you taught?
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« Reply #222 on: July 19, 2009, 06:24:38 PM »

Quote
Maybe not, but I bet you meet a lot of home-schooled people in psychiatrist waiting rooms.
I'm sorry, but from people i've met, homeschool vs. public school wise, the public school kids always seem to have more problems. In fact, one of the people that lived with us last year in our apartment had grown up in a huge public school, yet was one of the most sheltered, closed-minded, self-centered messed up people that we knew.

Whereas I've met many who were homeschooled that were not very messed up and in fact, more normal than I or others may be.

I would argue that when you are exposed to the amount of innapropriate material or activity that goes on in a public school, and when you are in direct contact with people (sometimes even hanging out with them) that live nothing close to a Christian lifestyle, it's going to mess you up FAR more than being raised & taught by your own parents.

Most of the time, I believe that those who homeschool their children earnestly care about them, thus their kids will probably not be as likely to be abused or mistreated, or treated like they are worth nothing. The most common psychological problem in the world is depression, and I'll tell you, while depression may indeed come from being isolated, it also easily comes from being abused & beaten up emotionally (sometimes physically) by peers in a public school setting.

___________________________________

That being said, let's STOP the accusations/assumptions and hostileness and treat one another with dignity and respect like Christians ought to.
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« Reply #223 on: July 19, 2009, 06:27:05 PM »

One observation: I have plenty of kids who do badly and are public or private school graduates, but in their sample, a rather high proportion are doing badly because they are lazy, wanton, partying too much etc. On the other hand, the kids who do badly and are home schooled are usually very sincerely INTENDING to study and trying to study - but they do not know HOW to study. Among them, I never see any lazy or wanton or "over-partying" types. They want to do well, they make efforts. And always, invariably, in vain. They are overwhelmed with the volume of the material, and they do not understand, just why is it that their professors do not tell them "exactly what do I need to know for the test," plus they have very serious adjustment problems, and always a kind of depression. That has been my experience. Of course, one can say that I am teaching at a small university, and that I never did strictly statistical studies etc. etc. etc. But I am honest. Again, I met ALL KINDS of kids who were public and private school graduates as far as their academic success at my university goes - outstanding, excellent, good, mediocre, and bad. But I am yet to meet ONE homeschooled kid whose success would be anything but bad.

You do teach at an extremely small college and have no doubt had very few home schooled students in your classroom, i.e. if their are 1100 students attending, you probably don't have more than 20 or so home schooled students in the whole college.  And if you don't mind, how do you know the background of your students, i.e. were they private schooled, home schooled or public schooled.  I never once in four years of college at Vanderbilt had a professor ask me what type of education I had prior to college, and Vanderbilt itself was a pretty small school.

I always ask my students to fill a questionnaire before we start a new semester. It includes the question, what was their secondary education, from which secondary school have they graduated.
So how many home schooled students have you taught?

Well, I've taught at MUW for 15 semesters and each semester I had about 10 to 20 homeschooled kids, so 150-300. (I teach relatively large freshmen-sophomore nonmajor clases in addition to major).
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« Reply #224 on: July 20, 2009, 08:36:23 AM »

I would argue that when you are exposed to the amount of innapropriate material or activity that goes on in a public school, and when you are in direct contact with people (sometimes even hanging out with them) that live nothing close to a Christian lifestyle, it's going to mess you up FAR more than being raised & taught by your own parents.

Of course a lot of bad things happen in public schools as well as in private schools. To my daughter the worst problem was cliques, the "beautiful people." She could never fit in, and never really tried because the "beautiful people" always seemed shallow and boring to her. (In fact, I had the same problem in my secondary school days, and my wife had the same problem, too). The "beautiful people" hated her, sensing her intellectual and moral superiority. They gossiped about her, invented most horrendous nicknames, etc. Another big problem for my daughter was pep rallies - she hated them so much that she would lock herself in a toilet cabin for the entire duration of a next pep rally. There were also some problems with some teachers. So, all in all, yes, she became very depressed and angry. But that was part of her coming of age, part of her intrinsic learning experience. At the end, she came victorious. And again, I am not sure that it a good thing for children to be sheltered from problems like the ones my daughter had.
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