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Author Topic: Homeschool VS Public School  (Read 64862 times) Average Rating: 1
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LizaSymonenko
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« Reply #135 on: July 15, 2009, 02:21:19 PM »


In my area most parochial schools are too expensive for the average family.
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« Reply #136 on: July 15, 2009, 03:04:00 PM »

I always thought that homeschooling was dangerous because it could lead to anti social and egocentric tendencies in young people.  Better to send them to a public school where they will be able to interact with kids their own age and learn to get along with eachother.  It is especially bad to expose a child to only one way of doing things, one belief system when they are young because it could create a streak of intolerance in the child in there future dealings of people who are different from them. 

If a parent wants to homeschool then that's great.  I firmly support the right of parents to educate their children as they see fit.  However one cannot deny the negative effects of homeschooling, the worst being the attitudes that develop among the homeschooling parents towards other parents who do not choose to embrace this way of life for their children.

Also, why don't some parents consider putting their children in Catholic parochial schools?  Today most US RC schools are very theologically liberal.  They would not interfere in any way with the Orthodox faith of their students.  Plus there is much good that comes from Parochial schools in the filed of education.

The problem occurs when:

a) You live in an area with horrible public schools (Chicago; Go look at the rankings for our schools and tell me you can get a quality education)
b) You have horrible teachers (Many of the teachers in public schools couldn't pass basic math and reading assessments)
c) Your educational abilities are determined entirely on standardized tests which the public school teachers have access to ahead of time and use to "teach the test" to the students
d) Parochial schools are cost prohibitive and don't have teachers much better than public schools


So whats the remaining option?

-Nick
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« Reply #137 on: July 15, 2009, 03:16:28 PM »

And why are these public schools so horrible? Reasons? Poor pay for teachers? Can't you good citizens campaign in favor of your government making it bigger?
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« Reply #138 on: July 15, 2009, 03:53:19 PM »

I firmly support the right of parents to educate their children as they see fit. 

Do you also firmly support the right of parents to remove their children's inflamed appendices as they see fit?

(Not engaging in a debate, just asking...  Wink)
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« Reply #139 on: July 15, 2009, 04:54:21 PM »

I admit that most parochial schools are a joke.  From some personal experience, they seem more like prep schools then institutions of religious learning.  This, with the fact that the modern RCC in America is in horrible shape theologically and the chances of getting any type of real religious education (even by RCC standards) is slim to none.  Just look at what happened with the Notre Dame scandal of recent months.  Even though the RC bishop of South Bend opposed the President coming to speak at a school in his own diocese, they just ignored him.   It's an absolute waste of time even for an RC to send their kids to such schools. 

If a person wants to homeschool their kids then that's fine.  I'm just against people who act like this is the only way to educate their children and look down very openly on those who choose to send their kids to a public/private school.  I have heard some Orthodox who have acted like this, but most seems to come from evangelicals or traditionalsit RC's.  They latter are terrible since they demand that everyone has 10-20 kids a piece and then expects you to homeschool and support them all without having the mother work outside the home, and if you don't then they consign you to Hell.

Are there any Orthodox jurisdictions which promote private schools?  I know that the GOA has a big school attached to their cathedral in Houston, Texas.  Are there any others?

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« Reply #140 on: July 15, 2009, 06:09:56 PM »

And why are these public schools so horrible? Reasons? Poor pay for teachers? Can't you good citizens campaign in favor of your government making it bigger?

Heorhj,

I do not home school and had hoped that living in a nice neighborhood with highly-rated schools would have produced stellar results. My husband and I are involved with our sons' homework and we try to augment their learning with books that capture their interest. But most of our experiences with the public schools have been negative. My younger son is bored to tears and gets straight A's without much effort. He has received math awards two years in a row but IQ tests have never shown him to be a genius. I believe that the curriculum is set for children who are academically in the middle. So if your child is slightly above average, they won't be challenged. My theory seemed to be right when my older son moved on to an all boys Catholic high school. He was tested by the school because they have a two track system. His test results placed him in all honors classes. It was the first year he had homework and was challenged academically. He thrived! But heaven forbid we ever set-up a two track system in our public schools. Then we would have to admit some children are smarter than other children. Instead, we live in the delusion that all students are academically equal.

Also, it is my belief that in California, many teachers are academically incompetent compared to their counterparts from thirty years ago. I have edited my children's papers because most English teachers I have dealt with are poor editors who misspell words when they write their comments on my child's paper. I am a part time aide in our public middle school and I spent most of my time last year editing and grading papers for the teacher I helped. She even had me rewrite her emails to colleagues and parents because in her words, "you are really a great writer and editor and I am not." And these are words coming from a state-certified English teacher with a masters degree!

I grew up in the California public school system (late 60s through 1970s). So most of our teachers were from the WWII generation. They were top notch. They could edit stacks of essays weekly with excellent comments to improve writing skills. They gave in depth lessons in grammar daily. From what I have seen in California public schools today is, very little time is spent teaching children how to write a proper paper.
 
Honestly, I don't think the answer is to make the state education system larger. California has a gigantic teachers union which has been the source of many of our problems. The state education bureaucracy is large and unwieldy. Funding the schools at the state level is a Byzantine puzzle that only financial professionals can decipher. When California was the educational envy of the nation, our schools were controlled and funded locally. I believe that point is part of the solution to improve our public education system. I have even heard a few of our state education officials point out this fact and have wondered if we should return to the old system.

Also, another way to rid ourselves of incompetence is to do away with tenure. Teachers should be reviewed just like employees in the private sector. Give bonuses and raises to the great teachers and fire the incompetent ones. But the CTA would never allow it. Unfortunately, the union is a big part of the problem. Maybe they will listen to Obama. He has suggested doing away with tenure, firing incompetent teachers, and giving merit-based pay raises as a way to improve our public education system.
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« Reply #141 on: July 15, 2009, 07:20:16 PM »

He was tested by the school because they have a two track system. His test results placed him in all honors classes. It was the first year he had homework and was challenged academically. He thrived! But heaven forbid we ever set-up a two track system in our public schools. Then we would have to admit some children are smarter than other children. Instead, we live in the delusion that all students are academically equal.
We do this; I don't know why your district doesn't. There is an overwhelming amount of research supporting flexible tracking systems (that is, that once a child starts to excel they can move up to a higher track). In fact, I have a student right now who started in Applied Math (code name for lower-track math in lieu of algebra), moved up to regular geometry last year, and is now taking Algebra II next year. It's worked out quite well. The problem comes when the kids can't get out of their track; the lower-tracked ones can begin to feel apathetic, and the higher-tracked ones can begin to feel overworked.

Quote
When California was the educational envy of the nation, our schools were controlled and funded locally. I believe that point is part of the solution to improve our public education system. I have even heard a few of our state education officials point out this fact and have wondered if we should return to the old system.
Local funding and local control of educational decision is one of the key elements to a functional school district. The people who know the kids best can make the best decisions for them.

Quote
Also, another way to rid ourselves of incompetence is to do away with tenure. Teachers should be reviewed just like employees in the private sector. Give bonuses and raises to the great teachers and fire the incompetent ones. But the CTA would never allow it. Unfortunately, the union is a big part of the problem. Maybe they will listen to Obama. He has suggested doing away with tenure, firing incompetent teachers, and giving merit-based pay raises as a way to improve our public education system.
No, no, no, no, no! Tenure is the job security that keeps most teachers in their positions when they could be making more in the private sector. I personally am quite willing to take a lower, guaranteed paycheck over one that is higher but could dry up. In addition, tenure is security for seeking high-level degrees. A tenured teacher cannot be fired merely for gaining an advanced degree and the pay raise that comes with it. My father has seen many, many people he works with at his engineering firm fired merely because they could be replaced by cheaper, less experienced workers. I do not want this happening to our schools as well.

Many who favour eliminating tenure do not seem to understand that there are provisions for removing incompetent teachers. First of all, tenure usually does not kick in until a teacher has been at a particular district five or six years, during which time they can be refused a contract renewal for any or no reason. Thus the community has adequate time to issue grievances against a poor teacher, and the district administration has adequate time to gather evidence of their incompetence. In addition, even a tenured teacher can be removed for incompetence. It usually involves a fair amount of evidence and a hearing before the school board, and sometimes even a court case, but if the teacher is truly that bad, it is worth the ordeal.
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« Reply #142 on: July 15, 2009, 08:23:43 PM »

And why are these public schools so horrible? Reasons? Poor pay for teachers? Can't you good citizens campaign in favor of your government making it bigger?

Heorhj,

I do not home school and had hoped that living in a nice neighborhood with highly-rated schools would have produced stellar results. My husband and I are involved with our sons' homework and we try to augment their learning with books that capture their interest. But most of our experiences with the public schools have been negative. My younger son is bored to tears and gets straight A's without much effort. He has received math awards two years in a row but IQ tests have never shown him to be a genius. I believe that the curriculum is set for children who are academically in the middle. So if your child is slightly above average, they won't be challenged. My theory seemed to be right when my older son moved on to an all boys Catholic high school. He was tested by the school because they have a two track system. His test results placed him in all honors classes. It was the first year he had homework and was challenged academically. He thrived! But heaven forbid we ever set-up a two track system in our public schools. Then we would have to admit some children are smarter than other children. Instead, we live in the delusion that all students are academically equal.

Also, it is my belief that in California, many teachers are academically incompetent compared to their counterparts from thirty years ago. I have edited my children's papers because most English teachers I have dealt with are poor editors who misspell words when they write their comments on my child's paper. I am a part time aide in our public middle school and I spent most of my time last year editing and grading papers for the teacher I helped. She even had me rewrite her emails to colleagues and parents because in her words, "you are really a great writer and editor and I am not." And these are words coming from a state-certified English teacher with a masters degree!

I grew up in the California public school system (late 60s through 1970s). So most of our teachers were from the WWII generation. They were top notch. They could edit stacks of essays weekly with excellent comments to improve writing skills. They gave in depth lessons in grammar daily. From what I have seen in California public schools today is, very little time is spent teaching children how to write a proper paper.
 
Honestly, I don't think the answer is to make the state education system larger. California has a gigantic teachers union which has been the source of many of our problems. The state education bureaucracy is large and unwieldy. Funding the schools at the state level is a Byzantine puzzle that only financial professionals can decipher. When California was the educational envy of the nation, our schools were controlled and funded locally. I believe that point is part of the solution to improve our public education system. I have even heard a few of our state education officials point out this fact and have wondered if we should return to the old system.

Also, another way to rid ourselves of incompetence is to do away with tenure. Teachers should be reviewed just like employees in the private sector. Give bonuses and raises to the great teachers and fire the incompetent ones. But the CTA would never allow it. Unfortunately, the union is a big part of the problem. Maybe they will listen to Obama. He has suggested doing away with tenure, firing incompetent teachers, and giving merit-based pay raises as a way to improve our public education system.

So, homeschool? Amputate your children's inflamed apendices, using directions from the Internet? Smiley
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« Reply #143 on: July 15, 2009, 09:22:53 PM »

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So, homeschool? Amputate your children's inflamed apendices, using directions from the Internet? Smiley

I was answering your questions about public schools. You wanted to know why they are horrible. Personally, I want to see our public education system overhauled dramatically. That is why I gave you examples of how it could be done.
As you can see, I didn't choose home schooling but instead chose private high school for my older son. I use the money I earn from teaching at a public school to pay for his private school tuition.   Cool

But I would never judge home schooled children or their parents. The ones I have met in my parish are polite, mature, bright and usually a few grades ahead of their peers. My son's good friend is sixteen and is starting college this fall. He is a musician, artist, and has done very well in mathematics.

Everyone finds what works for their family. Some choose charter schools, others home school, others may have a great public school option. It is good that there are choices for families.

 
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« Reply #144 on: July 15, 2009, 10:01:07 PM »

And why are these public schools so horrible? Reasons? Poor pay for teachers? Can't you good citizens campaign in favor of your government making it bigger?

1) Parents who don't care
2) Teachers who are there as babysitters, not really to teach
3) Teachers who can't pass basic math and reading assessments
4) Lots of schools and not enough money for them
5) Good teachers leave for suburban public schools due to more money and a better environment.
6) Crowded Class rooms (all of my grammar school classes were 31+ children for 1 teacher)

I could go on, but I get bored talking about the same things over and over again.

In response to your continued analogies about taking a child to a doctor being the same as sending a child to a public school..... If you know that your doctor can't pass a basic skills test on human anatomy and physiology, would you still be taking your child to that doctor?

-Nick
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« Reply #145 on: July 15, 2009, 10:27:59 PM »

But all the anti-home schooling venom that can get slung around is really puzzling to me.  Something tells me some people fear home schooling, but not because they really think on the whole home schooled children aren't getting educated properly.  It's something else they fear, and it probably differs from person to person.
Actually, I find just the opposite. I find it's the homeschooling parents who are irrationally afraid, and at least one study seems to support that theory. According to Kennedy and Gust (2005), home-schooling parents are more likely than other parents to be concerned about vaccinations, and are also least likely to have adequate information about vaccines. It should be noted that the sample size of this investigation was limited, and therefore a larger-scale study is highly recommended, but even at the small size, this trend was clearly evident.

Quote
The good thing is that home schooling is growing, and growing across all sorts of demographics.  Ultimately this competition will make public schools and even private schools better, and that is a good thing for everybody.
Unfortunately, according to the available data (Isenberg, 2007), it is growing most rapidly among those making less than $13,000 per year--hardly the sort of environment where children are likely to have even the same access to materials and experiences as in public school, let alone better. In addition, although there is a direct relationship among elementary-age children between the parents' education level and likelihood of being homeschooled, there is no such relationship among adolescents--which is the time at which the parents' education most translates into effectiveness of teaching.

References:
Kennedy, A.M., and Gust, D.A. (2005, September). "Parental Vaccine Beliefs and Child's School Type." Journal of School Health 75(7), pp. 276-280.

Isenberg, E.J. "What Have We Learned About Homeschooling?" Peabody Journal of Education 82(2-3), pp. 387-409.

Couldn't find a study showing Home schooled children do worse than public schooled ones, so you throw down the gauntlet with a study on vaccination concerns and on on the rise in home schooling among low income people? Impressive.

Maybe the income study just shows that lower income people who can't afford private schools, and don't live near well-funded public schools, are putting the education of their children in their own hands.  And since all studies I've ever seen show home schooled children do better than public school children, God Bless them for trying.
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« Reply #146 on: July 16, 2009, 12:20:37 PM »

And since all studies I've ever seen show home schooled children do better than public school children, God Bless them for trying.
If you'll read the Isenberg study (and with your being an educator, I should hope that you have access to educational research), you'll find that he reports that the only data we have for comparing home-schooled students to public-school students are SAT scores and surveys. SAT scores are, of course, available only for those students who take the SAT, and as I'm sure you're aware, there are quite a number of students in both groups who never take that test, either because they don't go to college or because they enroll in a community college and either end their education there or use their GPA there to transfer to a four-year university. In addition, the surveys are voluntary, and I would hope you are aware of the inherent problems in self-reporting.

So these studies are far from irrelevant; in fact, they quite undermine your entire argument, by showing that the data used to "prove" that home-schooled students are better educated are faulty at best.
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« Reply #147 on: July 16, 2009, 12:51:55 PM »

I would have to say from my experience, if one sends a child to public school, they ought to be very careful in doing so.

I grew up attending nothing but public schools. I knew many of the kids since elementary school. There are many benefits of public school life, you are with many other kids, many whom are different than you. You have the opportunity to be very involved in many other activities. It helps prepare you for entry into the world.
However it also has many disadvantages... It opens you up to worldly passions and influence. It seems to be a way of indoctrinating our kids into our society and culture. The kids have to function virtually on their own within the school setting until they leave in the afternoon. They often learn things they probably ought not to learn (and i'm not talking about subjects like evoluation). They see things they shouldn't be subject to see. It is becoming a completely secular environment where nearly any religious affiliation or grounding becomes taboo and too often something that is completely banned.

I had good experiences in public school. I made many friends and learned how to deal with many people. However, I also experienced many bad things... Teachers that were verbally abusive & emotionally destructive. Students that were too often physically abusive. Constant, almost unceasing talk or exposure to sexual references &/or contexts. Encouragement of division into separate groups w/o much interaction between. Frequent use of vulgar language. Witnessing multiple violent fights between girls as well as boys. Rivalries between schools becoming violent and hateful. Encouragement of drugs, alcohol, smoking, etc... among the youth.

One of the things I hated most in public school were pep rallies in high school. These are where they gather all the teens into the gymnasium for a couple hours, have relay races w/ certain groups and dance performances by the cheerleaders and dance teams. This is what I hated the most, when the school would enforce dress code, yet allow dance teams to dress in attire nearly breaking the code and dancing in sometimes vulgar & sexual ways. This was definitely not good for anyone in attendance or that were involved.

Personally, I would like to see more Orthodox schools be created across the world. Especially here in the United States as a way to counter the secularism and increasing decline in social values in schools. Am I against public school? No i'm not, when I have kids eventually, they will probably be going to public school. One just really needs to have their kid solidly grounded in their faith and encourage them to stay the course despite what they are surrounded by every weekday.
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« Reply #148 on: July 16, 2009, 01:16:08 PM »

OH my, you guys are off your rocker!

Some of us were compelled by the Holy Spirit to begin homeschooling, and though ignoring it for two years it became impossible to put it off. Petitioning our government? Its not the government that owns our children, has any direct God given responsibility for them, or should be interfering in our lives. That isn't how the US government was designed to operate at all.
Professionals?  what a lark. In every other industrialized nation our college/university graduates are laughable. I had "professional" math teachers with their token degrees, that could not teach basic math to save their lives. I had to learn on my own, and fast, in college. Not everyone is that compelled. Its a sorry state of affairs, because our educational system is busted at its roots. You can't graduate a student that started flailing in grade school, then hope college will fix it. The symptoms are only exacerbated the longer they are ignored, and they ARE ignored in this country. Most of my teaching friends in the ps system do NOT send their children to the same schools they teach in. The spend their days not teaching academics, because they are too busy tending to teen pregnancy, drug abuse and sexual molestation in their classrooms. Kids in social settings with these problems, which includes every dynamic now, can't possibly focus on learning.  Its the breakdown of the family unit itself that has us in such a mess.  A struggling abused wife has little to offer her child via homework, IF the child can even focus on academics. There are multiple degreed "professionals' that can't spell or write correctly. We hand degrees out and then simply trust that people are now qualified after 4 years of binge drinking and sexing. Please.  We have 7 colleges or universities in our geographical area, and access to more an hour's drive away. State, private, community/junior colleges, one of the oldest small private colleges in the nation, women's universities. Yet what is coming out of them is sorry indeed, not limited to the teaching field. Your assumptions George seem clouded by personal bias and your background in a state controlled setting.
Homeschoolers are throwbacks to the founding ideals of this country. You would be wrong to assume that we are uneducated buffoons that are simply living in paranoia and insulated. My dh and I are both educated, his IQ is incredibly high. We utilize retired FBI operatives, chemists, biologists and more to round out our children's education and broaden their experience. We are a family that has suffered the loss of one child's complete abilities due to a vaccine reaction. You can't tell a parent whose child is now affected by one of those 'rare' reactions that they don't happen. I am not paranoid, I am educated, intelligent, and fiercely driven. I spend my days, each and every one, educating DOCTORS, NURSES, THERAPISTS and other  "professionals" as to the many varied issues of Rett Syndrome. For people allegedly so intelligent and trained, they can sure be incredibly stupid. I have to lead these 'professionals' around by the nose. It is simply wrong to elevate human beings to higher levels of respect simply because they have a piece of paper saying they attended classes on a topic that affects you. What makes a person a true expert in something is daily experience, unyielding dedication, unflinching pursuit, and continued effort in that field. Integrity to continue to increase ones knowledge base, something doctors are supposed to do and don't. Teachers, they come out not qualified and don't pursue much of anything but a base income.
I am truly disgusted by the biases presented here. You don't have to agree with homeschooling guys, if you aren't called then please don't do it. But to suggest that it is "EVIL" or "wrong" simply based on opinion and a few experiences with some ill prepared hs'ers? That is incredibly shortsighted and offensive. As if we couldn't come up with copious examples of publicly educated graduates that flunked out of school because they were just as ill prepared! That's hardly enough to justify voting to remove parental rights, the same ones that made this country what it was.  I am utterly appalled at some of your responses. Presumptions about an entire group of people are rarely correct or intelligent. In case you are wondering I do have one graduate so far, and she went in as the first female management at her company in a stellar track. All because she was homeschooled, she was sought out. Sure, they aren't all biochemists by age 8, but neither are all homeschoolers completely inadequate failures.  I would expect more of a logical and factual debate from such intelligent folks.  Very disappointed am I.
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« Reply #149 on: July 16, 2009, 01:41:06 PM »

^ I reiterate: The research shows that home-school families are most likely to be concerned for their children's education, and are least likely to have adequate information about it.
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« Reply #150 on: July 16, 2009, 02:31:59 PM »

^ I reiterate: The research shows that home-school families are most likely to be concerned for their children's education, and are least likely to have adequate information about it.

And on this point you would be wrong, plain and simple.

Take your accusations to The Well Trained Mind board.  You might receive an education.  Wink
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« Reply #151 on: July 16, 2009, 02:39:58 PM »

OH my, you guys are off your rocker!

Some of us were compelled by the Holy Spirit to begin homeschooling, and though ignoring it for two years it became impossible to put it off. Petitioning our government? Its not the government that owns our children, has any direct God given responsibility for them, or should be interfering in our lives. That isn't how the US government was designed to operate at all.
Professionals?  what a lark. In every other industrialized nation our college/university graduates are laughable. I had "professional" math teachers with their token degrees, that could not teach basic math to save their lives. I had to learn on my own, and fast, in college. Not everyone is that compelled. Its a sorry state of affairs, because our educational system is busted at its roots. You can't graduate a student that started flailing in grade school, then hope college will fix it. The symptoms are only exacerbated the longer they are ignored, and they ARE ignored in this country. Most of my teaching friends in the ps system do NOT send their children to the same schools they teach in. The spend their days not teaching academics, because they are too busy tending to teen pregnancy, drug abuse and sexual molestation in their classrooms. Kids in social settings with these problems, which includes every dynamic now, can't possibly focus on learning.  Its the breakdown of the family unit itself that has us in such a mess.  A struggling abused wife has little to offer her child via homework, IF the child can even focus on academics. There are multiple degreed "professionals' that can't spell or write correctly. We hand degrees out and then simply trust that people are now qualified after 4 years of binge drinking and sexing. Please.  We have 7 colleges or universities in our geographical area, and access to more an hour's drive away. State, private, community/junior colleges, one of the oldest small private colleges in the nation, women's universities. Yet what is coming out of them is sorry indeed, not limited to the teaching field. Your assumptions George seem clouded by personal bias and your background in a state controlled setting.
Homeschoolers are throwbacks to the founding ideals of this country. You would be wrong to assume that we are uneducated buffoons that are simply living in paranoia and insulated. My dh and I are both educated, his IQ is incredibly high. We utilize retired FBI operatives, chemists, biologists and more to round out our children's education and broaden their experience. We are a family that has suffered the loss of one child's complete abilities due to a vaccine reaction. You can't tell a parent whose child is now affected by one of those 'rare' reactions that they don't happen. I am not paranoid, I am educated, intelligent, and fiercely driven. I spend my days, each and every one, educating DOCTORS, NURSES, THERAPISTS and other  "professionals" as to the many varied issues of Rett Syndrome. For people allegedly so intelligent and trained, they can sure be incredibly stupid. I have to lead these 'professionals' around by the nose. It is simply wrong to elevate human beings to higher levels of respect simply because they have a piece of paper saying they attended classes on a topic that affects you. What makes a person a true expert in something is daily experience, unyielding dedication, unflinching pursuit, and continued effort in that field. Integrity to continue to increase ones knowledge base, something doctors are supposed to do and don't. Teachers, they come out not qualified and don't pursue much of anything but a base income.
I am truly disgusted by the biases presented here. You don't have to agree with homeschooling guys, if you aren't called then please don't do it. But to suggest that it is "EVIL" or "wrong" simply based on opinion and a few experiences with some ill prepared hs'ers? That is incredibly shortsighted and offensive. As if we couldn't come up with copious examples of publicly educated graduates that flunked out of school because they were just as ill prepared! That's hardly enough to justify voting to remove parental rights, the same ones that made this country what it was.  I am utterly appalled at some of your responses. Presumptions about an entire group of people are rarely correct or intelligent. In case you are wondering I do have one graduate so far, and she went in as the first female management at her company in a stellar track. All because she was homeschooled, she was sought out. Sure, they aren't all biochemists by age 8, but neither are all homeschoolers completely inadequate failures.  I would expect more of a logical and factual debate from such intelligent folks.  Very disappointed am I.


BRAVO!!!

We had a child nearly die from a vaccine reaction as well.  Our medical doctor informed us that there was a possible genetic link and we were advised to research and consider not vaccinating our other children.  Our other doctors have all backed our decisions, especially in light of the fact that we do home educate our children.  That same child currently has an issue with her immune system and homeschooling her is very helpful in light of the fact that she has times where she is not well and cannot be active or exposed to everything that goes around the schools.  Then there is the issue that with our work and school schedules, that my children would literally NEVER see their father, except on Sundays, if they were in public or private school.
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« Reply #152 on: July 16, 2009, 02:52:11 PM »

^ I reiterate: The research shows that home-school families are most likely to be concerned for their children's education, and are least likely to have adequate information about it.
And on this point you would be wrong, plain and simple.
I have cited research as evidence of this claim. What evidence do you have to the contrary?
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« Reply #153 on: July 16, 2009, 02:57:36 PM »

^ I reiterate: The research shows that home-school families are most likely to be concerned for their children's education, and are least likely to have adequate information about it.
And on this point you would be wrong, plain and simple.
I have cited research as evidence of this claim. What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Actually knowing MANY home educators throughout not only the States, but in other countries as well.
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« Reply #154 on: July 16, 2009, 03:00:21 PM »

^ I reiterate: The research shows that home-school families are most likely to be concerned for their children's education, and are least likely to have adequate information about it.
And on this point you would be wrong, plain and simple.
I have cited research as evidence of this claim. What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Actually knowing MANY home educators throughout not only the States, but in other countries as well.

It's easy to believe one bit of research and disregard another when you live in a vacuum (as in, you don't really know a wide variety of home educators or interact with them on a regular basis).
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« Reply #155 on: July 16, 2009, 03:10:24 PM »


I am the product of "public schooling" in the suburbs.

Schools were clean, books were new, teachers were nice.

However, having said all that, I was exposed daily to sexual acts, drugs were passed from hand to hand - right before the teacher's eyes, bad language was the norm, etc.
I could have easily gotten in to so much trouble, had I not had a strong willed mother at home.

She would sit us down after school and ask for every detail of our day, and then explain to us what was right and wrong, and how we should respond to certain situations we find ourselves in.

I kid you not, drugs were so rampant in my middle school (6-8 grade) that it was not funny.  The bathrooms always reeked of marajuana.  Grass was passed in baggies up and down the aisles in choir.  Nobody did anything to stop it.

Home schooled kids are not exposed to all this materialism, self-indulgence, and stupidity.

I honestly give lots of credit to the parents who actually dedicate themselves to homeschooling.  I can't imagine it's easy.  Must take lots of dedication and organization.

This is one wonderful thing about living in the great U.S. of A.  You have the opportunity to home school, if you like.

To each their own.  Parents should do what they think is best for their kids.  They are monitored.  The kids still have to "know" certain things.   Yet, other things are not forced down their throats. 

You, home-schoolers, have my utmost respect.


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« Reply #156 on: July 16, 2009, 03:34:14 PM »

^ I reiterate: The research shows that home-school families are most likely to be concerned for their children's education, and are least likely to have adequate information about it.
And on this point you would be wrong, plain and simple.
I have cited research as evidence of this claim. What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Actually knowing MANY home educators throughout not only the States, but in other countries as well.

It's easy to believe one bit of research and disregard another when you live in a vacuum (as in, you don't really know a wide variety of home educators or interact with them on a regular basis).
Assumption. And a quite wrong one as well.
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« Reply #157 on: July 16, 2009, 03:54:24 PM »

In response to your continued analogies about taking a child to a doctor being the same as sending a child to a public school..... If you know that your doctor can't pass a basic skills test on human anatomy and physiology, would you still be taking your child to that doctor?

No, but I won't do the appendectomy myself; rather, I'll find another skilled, trained doctor. Or are you saying that ALL public schols in the USA are failures?
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« Reply #158 on: July 16, 2009, 04:04:17 PM »

Quote
So, homeschool? Amputate your children's inflamed apendices, using directions from the Internet? Smiley

I was answering your questions about public schools. You wanted to know why they are horrible. Personally, I want to see our public education system overhauled dramatically. That is why I gave you examples of how it could be done.
As you can see, I didn't choose home schooling but instead chose private high school for my older son. I use the money I earn from teaching at a public school to pay for his private school tuition.   Cool

But I would never judge home schooled children or their parents. The ones I have met in my parish are polite, mature, bright and usually a few grades ahead of their peers. My son's good friend is sixteen and is starting college this fall. He is a musician, artist, and has done very well in mathematics.

Everyone finds what works for their family. Some choose charter schools, others home school, others may have a great public school option. It is good that there are choices for families.

 

I don't know. I still hold on to my opinion that if one does not have the special education and training of a teacher, one cannot give education to children.
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« Reply #159 on: July 16, 2009, 04:26:00 PM »

Just a reminder, I know this is a subject where opinions are quite passionate, but please please please refrain from insulting one another in this thread.  If this cannot be discussed in a calm, rational manner then I will lock the thread for a short time while tempers cool.  Thank you.

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« Reply #160 on: July 16, 2009, 04:34:33 PM »

Quote
So, homeschool? Amputate your children's inflamed apendices, using directions from the Internet? Smiley

I was answering your questions about public schools. You wanted to know why they are horrible. Personally, I want to see our public education system overhauled dramatically. That is why I gave you examples of how it could be done.
As you can see, I didn't choose home schooling but instead chose private high school for my older son. I use the money I earn from teaching at a public school to pay for his private school tuition.   Cool

But I would never judge home schooled children or their parents. The ones I have met in my parish are polite, mature, bright and usually a few grades ahead of their peers. My son's good friend is sixteen and is starting college this fall. He is a musician, artist, and has done very well in mathematics.

Everyone finds what works for their family. Some choose charter schools, others home school, others may have a great public school option. It is good that there are choices for families.

 

I don't know. I still hold on to my opinion that if one does not have the special education and training of a teacher, one cannot give education to children.

I understand Heorhij. You come from an education background. I do sympathize as my husband is a third generation family member to teach at a major private university. But even my husband has commented on the need for bonehead English at the University level because the public schools are not preparing the students properly. And as you can see, the teacher I worked for, who had been certified by the state with a masters in education, relied on me, a graphic design grad, without any education certification or grad degree, to edit all her student's papers and even write her correspondence. In other words, an incompetent, by your standards, was editing papers for the students in a public school. Something is wrong with this picture. Even our teachers aren't getting a decent education in comparison to the teachers we had 30 to 40 years ago.
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« Reply #161 on: July 16, 2009, 05:40:10 PM »

^ I reiterate: The research shows that home-school families are most likely to be concerned for their children's education, and are least likely to have adequate information about it.
And on this point you would be wrong, plain and simple.
I have cited research as evidence of this claim. What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Then, specifically, what information do you believe they are missing?

Actually knowing MANY home educators throughout not only the States, but in other countries as well.

It's easy to believe one bit of research and disregard another when you live in a vacuum (as in, you don't really know a wide variety of home educators or interact with them on a regular basis).
Assumption. And a quite wrong one as well.
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« Reply #162 on: July 16, 2009, 06:20:48 PM »


and are least likely to have adequate information about it[/b].

Then, specifically, what information do you believe they are missing?
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« Reply #163 on: July 16, 2009, 07:13:27 PM »

Just a reminder, I know this is a subject where opinions are quite passionate, but please please please refrain from insulting one another in this thread.  If this cannot be discussed in a calm, rational manner then I will lock the thread for a short time while tempers cool.  Thank you.

EofK, Family Forum Moderator


Dear Mod, where did I insult anyone? Again, I just happen to believe very firmly that the IDEA of homeschooling is as weird and wrong and potentially (on the long run) deadly as the idea of a person who was not schooled in medicine to resect someone's appendix. Nothing personal, really...
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« Reply #164 on: July 16, 2009, 07:15:31 PM »

Quote
So, homeschool? Amputate your children's inflamed apendices, using directions from the Internet? Smiley

I was answering your questions about public schools. You wanted to know why they are horrible. Personally, I want to see our public education system overhauled dramatically. That is why I gave you examples of how it could be done.
As you can see, I didn't choose home schooling but instead chose private high school for my older son. I use the money I earn from teaching at a public school to pay for his private school tuition.   Cool

But I would never judge home schooled children or their parents. The ones I have met in my parish are polite, mature, bright and usually a few grades ahead of their peers. My son's good friend is sixteen and is starting college this fall. He is a musician, artist, and has done very well in mathematics.

Everyone finds what works for their family. Some choose charter schools, others home school, others may have a great public school option. It is good that there are choices for families.

 

I don't know. I still hold on to my opinion that if one does not have the special education and training of a teacher, one cannot give education to children.

I understand Heorhij. You come from an education background. I do sympathize as my husband is a third generation family member to teach at a major private university. But even my husband has commented on the need for bonehead English at the University level because the public schools are not preparing the students properly. And as you can see, the teacher I worked for, who had been certified by the state with a masters in education, relied on me, a graphic design grad, without any education certification or grad degree, to edit all her student's papers and even write her correspondence. In other words, an incompetent, by your standards, was editing papers for the students in a public school. Something is wrong with this picture. Even our teachers aren't getting a decent education in comparison to the teachers we had 30 to 40 years ago.


But what should you Americans do? Resect appendices by yourselves?
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« Reply #165 on: July 16, 2009, 07:28:33 PM »


I don't know that much about home schooling. 

Doesn't the state or someone enforce certain regulations?

Don't the children have to know certain materials?  Do they get tested?

Or can one simply keep their kids at home, teach them the A,B,C's and 1,2,3's, never touching on algebra, geometry, etc?

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« Reply #166 on: July 16, 2009, 07:39:56 PM »


I don't know that much about home schooling. 

Doesn't the state or someone enforce certain regulations?

Don't the children have to know certain materials?  Do they get tested?

Or can one simply keep their kids at home, teach them the A,B,C's and 1,2,3's, never touching on algebra, geometry, etc?



But it's all connected... Depending on HOW the teacher teaches the A,B.C's and 1,2,3's, the kids will either really learn or NOT learn algebra, geometry, history, sociology, philosophy, the theory of biological evolution, etc. etc. etc....
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« Reply #167 on: July 16, 2009, 07:51:45 PM »


I don't know that much about home schooling. 

Doesn't the state or someone enforce certain regulations?

Don't the children have to know certain materials?  Do they get tested?

Or can one simply keep their kids at home, teach them the A,B,C's and 1,2,3's, never touching on algebra, geometry, etc?



Many states have regulations.  Few do not.  Most home educators in the states that do not have regulations will still follow the guidelines of a stricter state in case they are ever called into question and for colleges.

Most states that have regulations require the following (or variances of):

+ Formal testing on given years
+ Attendance log
+ Daily log
+ Portfolio of work...evidence of various subjects studied, several pieces of evidence from beginning, middle, and end of the year showing progression.
+ Meeting with an evaluator.  Evaluators must be certified teachers.  Evaluators look over all records and the child's work.  They informally interview the parent and child.  They discuss the child's education, various approaches that have or have not worked, discuss helpful changes if needed, and sign an affidavit that the child has been receiving an appropriate education and made progress throughout the year.
+ Affidavits stating that one is home educating their child and lists of subjects and goals are turned into the Superintendents office at the beginning of the year.  Evaluators' affidavits and sometimes the portfolios with all relevant information turned into the same office at the end of the year.


Many home educators will also include:

+ Lists of field trips, extra curricular activities, and hands on activities
+ Photos
+ Reading lists
+ and anything else that can be deemed as useful to showing a rounded education
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« Reply #168 on: July 16, 2009, 07:53:50 PM »


I don't know that much about home schooling. 

Doesn't the state or someone enforce certain regulations?

Don't the children have to know certain materials?  Do they get tested?

Or can one simply keep their kids at home, teach them the A,B,C's and 1,2,3's, never touching on algebra, geometry, etc?



Many states have regulations.  Few do not.  Most home educators in the states that do not have regulations will still follow the guidelines of a stricter state in case they are ever called into question and for colleges.

Most states that have regulations require the following (or variances of):

+ Formal testing on given years
+ Attendance log
+ Daily log
+ Portfolio of work...evidence of various subjects studied, several pieces of evidence from beginning, middle, and end of the year showing progression.
+ Meeting with an evaluator.  Evaluators must be certified teachers.  Evaluators look over all records and the child's work.  They informally interview the parent and child.  They discuss the child's education, various approaches that have or have not worked, discuss helpful changes if needed, and sign an affidavit that the child has been receiving an appropriate education and made progress throughout the year.
+ Affidavits stating that one is home educating their child and lists of subjects and goals are turned into the Superintendents office at the beginning of the year.  Evaluators' affidavits and sometimes the portfolios with all relevant information turned into the same office at the end of the year.


Why educate professional teachers then, at all?
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« Reply #169 on: July 16, 2009, 07:57:33 PM »


I don't know that much about home schooling. 

Doesn't the state or someone enforce certain regulations?

Don't the children have to know certain materials?  Do they get tested?

Or can one simply keep their kids at home, teach them the A,B,C's and 1,2,3's, never touching on algebra, geometry, etc?



Many states have regulations.  Few do not.  Most home educators in the states that do not have regulations will still follow the guidelines of a stricter state in case they are ever called into question and for colleges.

Most states that have regulations require the following (or variances of):

+ Formal testing on given years
+ Attendance log
+ Daily log
+ Portfolio of work...evidence of various subjects studied, several pieces of evidence from beginning, middle, and end of the year showing progression.
+ Meeting with an evaluator.  Evaluators must be certified teachers.  Evaluators look over all records and the child's work.  They informally interview the parent and child.  They discuss the child's education, various approaches that have or have not worked, discuss helpful changes if needed, and sign an affidavit that the child has been receiving an appropriate education and made progress throughout the year.
+ Affidavits stating that one is home educating their child and lists of subjects and goals are turned into the Superintendents office at the beginning of the year.  Evaluators' affidavits and sometimes the portfolios with all relevant information turned into the same office at the end of the year.


Why educate professional teachers then, at all?

To be honest, I've found your attitude to be so extreme, that I don't believe you ask anything with intent to actually learn or understand.

Teachers are for schools.  Education takes place in many ways.  Schools are one viable option.  For some they are the only option.  However, they are not necessarily the best option for all students.

If you need it in medical terms, I believe the same about birth.  Hospitals and obstetricians have their place.  Not every woman or every pregnancy needs a hospital or MD.  Midwives are just as capable within context of the needs and abilities of the woman.  Interference during delivery is needed for some women, just as the same interference can cause problems for other women.
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« Reply #170 on: July 16, 2009, 08:07:54 PM »


I don't know that much about home schooling. 

Doesn't the state or someone enforce certain regulations?

Don't the children have to know certain materials?  Do they get tested?

Or can one simply keep their kids at home, teach them the A,B,C's and 1,2,3's, never touching on algebra, geometry, etc?



Many states have regulations.  Few do not.  Most home educators in the states that do not have regulations will still follow the guidelines of a stricter state in case they are ever called into question and for colleges.

Most states that have regulations require the following (or variances of):

+ Formal testing on given years
+ Attendance log
+ Daily log
+ Portfolio of work...evidence of various subjects studied, several pieces of evidence from beginning, middle, and end of the year showing progression.
+ Meeting with an evaluator.  Evaluators must be certified teachers.  Evaluators look over all records and the child's work.  They informally interview the parent and child.  They discuss the child's education, various approaches that have or have not worked, discuss helpful changes if needed, and sign an affidavit that the child has been receiving an appropriate education and made progress throughout the year.
+ Affidavits stating that one is home educating their child and lists of subjects and goals are turned into the Superintendents office at the beginning of the year.  Evaluators' affidavits and sometimes the portfolios with all relevant information turned into the same office at the end of the year.


Why educate professional teachers then, at all?

To be honest, I've found your attitude to be so extreme, that I don't believe you ask anything with intent to actually learn or understand.

Teachers are for schools.  Education takes place in many ways.  Schools are one viable option.  For some they are the only option.  However, they are not necessarily the best option for all students.

If you need it in medical terms, I believe the same about birth.  Hospitals and obstetricians have their place.  Not every woman or every pregnancy needs a hospital or MD.  Midwives are just as capable within context of the needs and abilities of the woman.  Interference during delivery is needed for some women, just as the same interference can cause problems for other women.
Then maybe we should abolish schools? At least public schools, as they seem to be a non-viable option? And what's the need in obstetricians if midwives can do it all?
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« Reply #171 on: July 16, 2009, 08:09:53 PM »

But what should you Americans do? Resect appendices by yourselves?


If you are going to continue to use the analogy of a doctor, I would have had the right to sue a few of my sons' public school teachers for malpractice. Maybe that isn't a bad idea after all. The incompetent ones would be fired quickly if that were the case.
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« Reply #172 on: July 16, 2009, 08:10:58 PM »

But what should you Americans do? Resect appendices by yourselves?
's

If you are going to continue to use the analogy of a doctor, I would have had the right to sue a few of my son's public school teachers for malpractice. Maybe that isn't a bad idea after all. The incompetent ones would be fired quickly if that were the case.

So do it, rather than justifying resection of appendices by architects, musicians, accountants, etc.!
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« Reply #173 on: July 16, 2009, 08:11:47 PM »


I don't know that much about home schooling. 

Doesn't the state or someone enforce certain regulations?

Don't the children have to know certain materials?  Do they get tested?

Or can one simply keep their kids at home, teach them the A,B,C's and 1,2,3's, never touching on algebra, geometry, etc?



Many states have regulations.  Few do not.  Most home educators in the states that do not have regulations will still follow the guidelines of a stricter state in case they are ever called into question and for colleges.

Most states that have regulations require the following (or variances of):

+ Formal testing on given years
+ Attendance log
+ Daily log
+ Portfolio of work...evidence of various subjects studied, several pieces of evidence from beginning, middle, and end of the year showing progression.
+ Meeting with an evaluator.  Evaluators must be certified teachers.  Evaluators look over all records and the child's work.  They informally interview the parent and child.  They discuss the child's education, various approaches that have or have not worked, discuss helpful changes if needed, and sign an affidavit that the child has been receiving an appropriate education and made progress throughout the year.
+ Affidavits stating that one is home educating their child and lists of subjects and goals are turned into the Superintendents office at the beginning of the year.  Evaluators' affidavits and sometimes the portfolios with all relevant information turned into the same office at the end of the year.


Why educate professional teachers then, at all?

To be honest, I've found your attitude to be so extreme, that I don't believe you ask anything with intent to actually learn or understand.

Teachers are for schools.  Education takes place in many ways.  Schools are one viable option.  For some they are the only option.  However, they are not necessarily the best option for all students.

If you need it in medical terms, I believe the same about birth.  Hospitals and obstetricians have their place.  Not every woman or every pregnancy needs a hospital or MD.  Midwives are just as capable within context of the needs and abilities of the woman.  Interference during delivery is needed for some women, just as the same interference can cause problems for other women.
Then maybe we should abolish schools? At least public schools, as they sem to be a non-viable option?


Did I say schools weren't a viable option?  No, they are a viable option, but not the only option, nor should they be the only option.

The same with hospitals, labor centers, and homes for giving birth.  All are viable options given context, none should be the only option.
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« Reply #174 on: July 16, 2009, 08:13:58 PM »

But what should you Americans do? Resect appendices by yourselves?


If you are going to continue to use the analogy of a doctor, I would have had the right to sue a few of my sons' public school teachers for malpractice. Maybe that isn't a bad idea after all. The incompetent ones would be fired quickly if that were the case.

Oh, there are many teachers I would love to sue, if that were the case!
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« Reply #175 on: July 16, 2009, 08:17:48 PM »

[quote author=Etsi link=topic=8112.msg339689#msg339689 date=1247789507
Did I say schools weren't a viable option?  No, they are a viable option, but not the only option, nor should they be the only option.
[/quote]

And surgeons who resect appendices - maybe they aren't the only viable option, too? I'll resect a few appendices tomorrow, how 'bout that?

The same with hospitals, labor centers, and homes for giving birth.  All are viable options given context, none should be the only option.

Right, and it will be *I* who will decide, do I need an obstetrician-M.D. to assist in the delivery of my child, or should a midwife suffice?
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« Reply #176 on: July 16, 2009, 08:18:52 PM »

Very good!  Just as *I* get to choose both who delivers my child and who educates my child Wink
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« Reply #177 on: July 16, 2009, 08:20:31 PM »

Very good!  Just as *I* get to choose both who delivers my child and who educates my child Wink

But there is a subtle difference. If your child dies during the delivery, you see it. If your child gets a lousy "education" - you don't.
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« Reply #178 on: July 16, 2009, 08:23:51 PM »

But what should you Americans do? Resect appendices by yourselves?


If you are going to continue to use the analogy of a doctor, I would have had the right to sue a few of my sons' public school teachers for malpractice. Maybe that isn't a bad idea after all. The incompetent ones would be fired quickly if that were the case.

Oh, there are many teachers I would love to sue, if that were the case!
You can, and you can let the courts decide if any malpractice has occurred. However, there is a due process involved, which the courts insist upon before you bring such matters to them. It is as follows:

1. Discuss the matter with the teacher.
2. Discuss the matter with the teacher and a mediator.
3. Discuss the matter with the principal.
4. Discuss the matter with the superintendent.
5. Petition the school board at their regular meeting.
6. Bring the matter before the school board at a special hearing.
7. Bring the matter before the courts.

Most of the time the issue will be settled if you simply talk to the teacher and let them know what you want them to do for your child. Most teachers are quite accommodating. If not, talk to the principal and disciplinary action can be taken. Usually, once enough people file grievances, the bad teacher can be refused a new contract, and the issue is settled. Even if the teacher is tenured, though, having disciplinary actions in their file can be used as evidence before the school board of incompetence.

Now, some may be asking: Why am I giving out this information? Because I have seen as well as you bad teachers receive tenure, and I do not want them teaching any more than you do. With them out of the way, we have room for good teachers. The kids deserve the best, and it's up to we, the parents, teachers, and community members, to ensure that they get it.
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« Reply #179 on: July 16, 2009, 08:24:03 PM »

In response to your continued analogies about taking a child to a doctor being the same as sending a child to a public school..... If you know that your doctor can't pass a basic skills test on human anatomy and physiology, would you still be taking your child to that doctor?

No, but I won't do the appendectomy myself; rather, I'll find another skilled, trained doctor. Or are you saying that ALL public schols in the USA are failures?

Not all of us have a choice of multiple public schools or moving around the country for the sake of finding a school where a child will be able to learn what they need to know. All public schools are probably not failures, but the sad fact is that public schools in most major metropolitan areas are an insult to the educational system.

-Nick
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