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Author Topic: Wait a Second... Bilocation?  (Read 2788 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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Hello for now, my friend


« on: March 13, 2003, 09:23:37 PM »

Unbeknownst to me, people have been appearing in two different places at once for centuries now. Or, at least, that's what seems to be claimed.

I was leafing through my wife's "City of God" text earlier today; this is a four volume Catholic set that supposedly details private revelations given to a woman in the 17th century. This text was written under protest by Mary of Agreda, a woman who burned 8 years worth of her own writings, but was made to rewrite everything that she had written by those over her who continually threatened her (the translator includes this kind of biographical information in this collection, as though it's a good thing!). Anyway, it's claimed that:

Quote
"Mary of Agreda is known to have been favored with the miracle of bilocation: always remaining in her convent at Agreda, she was for a number of years the first messenger of the true faith sent by God to the Indians in Arizona and New Mexico, U.S." - Mary of Agreda, The Mystical City of God, (AMI Press, 1996 Edition), Volume 1, p. iv; cf ibid., p. xiv

I did a quick search on Google for "bilocation" with some other words (Orthodox, Catholic, etc.) to see what would come up, and apparently some other Catholic saints were supposedly attributed with the "miracle" of bilocation. My question is: do Catholics actually believe this? It's my understanding that not even angels can be in two places at once, and so it's absurd to say that human beings--especially while still in their bodies--could be. Perhaps I'm wrong on that, but that was my understanding of the Orthodox teaching, and quite honestly it through me for a loop to see that Catholics believe in the concept (though hopefully it's only "pious opinion," and not an teaching with the official stamp of approval??).

Someone help me!  Huh
« Last Edit: March 13, 2003, 11:07:47 PM by Paradosis » Logged

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Justin Kissel
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Hello for now, my friend


« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2003, 11:06:33 PM »

Just a clarification. Of course, God could do anything He wants, I don't mean to say that bilocation is impossible in that sense. What I mean was that God normally let things progress according to their nature, and he enforces the "no two places at once" aspect of the material creation (including angels, which are said to be "material" in that they fall to some extent short of immateriality, which only the uncreated God has) all the time, from what I've read. (I think some saints have even argued this point.. Theophan the Recluse I think it was). Anyway, I'm not saying that God couldn't, but that Orthodoxy teaches that He doesn't. Smiley So far as I understand... ?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2003, 11:08:48 PM by Paradosis » Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin

Hey, so I'm in a pop-alt-punk-folk-prog band called "Affable Dregs" and we have a new album coming out, titled "Vicious Turnips Always Taste Most Delicious." We'd really appreciate your support!
Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2003, 12:47:15 AM »

Just a clarification. Of course, God could do anything He wants, I don't mean to say that bilocation is impossible in that sense. What I mean was that God normally let things progress according to their nature, and he enforces the "no two places at once" aspect of the material creation (including angels, which are said to be "material" in that they fall to some extent short of immateriality, which only the uncreated God has) all the time, from what I've read. (I think some saints have even argued this point.. Theophan the Recluse I think it was). Anyway, I'm not saying that God couldn't, but that Orthodoxy teaches that He doesn't. Smiley So far as I understand... ?

Justin, of course God can do whatever He wills, even allowing instances of bi-location, if that is what He desires.  I believe that there are instances of the miracle of bi-location attributed to St. John [Maximovitch] the Wonderworker and Fool-for-Christ, Archbishop of Shanghai and San Francisco, in his "Vita," for example.  But must we believe in bi-location as an article of Faith?  No.  And neither do Roman Catholics.  But it can be a matter of personal piety to subscribe to such a belief in the lives of certain of God's Saints.

Hypo-Ortho
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Justin Kissel
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Hello for now, my friend


« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2003, 01:52:38 AM »

Well thank you for bringing that to my attention! Smiley I will have to look into that.
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Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin

Hey, so I'm in a pop-alt-punk-folk-prog band called "Affable Dregs" and we have a new album coming out, titled "Vicious Turnips Always Taste Most Delicious." We'd really appreciate your support!
prodromos
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« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2003, 08:47:37 AM »

I've heard of a few cases of translocation among orthodox saints (travelling instantaneously from one location to another) but I have never come across bilocation. Perhaps it is really a case of the former and no one was aware that they were currently not in their cell?

John.
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2003, 08:59:51 AM »

I've heard of a few cases of translocation among orthodox saints (travelling instantaneously from one location to another) but I have never come across bilocation. Perhaps it is really a case of the former and no one was aware that they were currently not in their cell?

John.

Could be, John.  Could bi-location be confused with translocation?  Could perhaps both occur?  Can you cite any examples?

Hypo-Ortho
« Last Edit: March 14, 2003, 09:20:08 AM by Hypo-Ortho » Logged
prodromos
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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2003, 09:23:08 AM »

Acts 8:39
When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

The following link is a transcript of a radio program where three Fathers were discussed who had recently died within a space of two months at the end of 1991. Father Gerasimos, Father Jacob and Father Porfirio.
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/3fathers.html
Regarding Father Jacob;
Quote
They said "He smells (of essence) alot, and many times.
Sometimes you would be looking at the Geronda on your right, turn to the left and he would be on your left!".
RC: A worldly person told me this... They went to the monastery one summer and saw the Geronda at the botton of a hill, they said "Weve come to see you Geronda" and he said to them ... "Go and i'll see you soon".  When they got there he was already there!

John.
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2003, 10:51:28 AM »

Thanks for these examples, John.

When I was a young lad in an RC parochial school, the good Sisters used to impress us with examples of bi-location of certain RC saints.  I think Martin de Porres, then a "Blessed," was one such example, and the alleged miracles of his bi-location were among those used to substantiate the cause for his canonization by the Vatican.

Hypo-Ortho
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prodromos
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2003, 04:04:56 AM »

Hey Hypo,

I'm currently reading "The Ascetic of Love", a book about sister Gavrilla. Last night I read a short description of what could possibly have been bilocation. She was staying at a monastery in Bethany I think (I don't have the book in front of me) and while she was praying she had a vision of the monastery of St Catherine in Sinai, seeing much detail though she had never been there. One year later at Pascha, she went to the monastery and the Igoumenos welcomed her as though she was already known to him and as they talked he related to her things they had said to each other the last time they had seen each other a year before. Finally, he asked her how she had come the last time, by bus? When she explained that this was her first visit to the monastery he immediately understood. From that time on there was a great spiritual bond between them.

I'm totally blown away by this saints life and constantly find myself being brought to tears by what I read. I can't recommend reading this book enough. I just regret my coming to Orthodoxy so late as it seems as though many of the saints of our age all passed away just as I was coming into the church. I've arrived at the port just in time to see the brightest jewels sailing away, smiling and waving to me from the deck.

John.
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2003, 08:35:45 AM »

prodromos<<I'm currently reading "The Ascetic of Love", a book about sister Gavrilla. Last night I read a short description of what could possibly have been bilocation.>>

I've been hearing about Mother Gavrilia the Eldress for years now, John, even from a Greek Orthodox acquaintance in faraway Australia.  Although she fell asleep in the Lord only as recently as 1992, Mother Gavrilia is already looked upon by some as a saint.  

We'll always have saints in our own times, I suppose, if we know where to look and how to recognize them.  St. Silouan of Mt. Athos is one who has been formally recognized by the Church through his Glorification, and I believe that his disciple, Archimandrite Sophrony, is still alive and now functioning as Abbot of a small Orthodox monastery in England.

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prodromos
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2003, 09:02:33 AM »

Hi Hypo!

There is a great deal of love for St. Silouan in Thessaloniki. He has already had his image placed among many other saints in the frescoes adorning the walls of a number of churches I have visited, including Panagia Dexias (very large church on Egnatia St), St. George (next to the Rotonda) and my own church, Analipseos, although there it is simply an icon of him hanging on the wall.

John.
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« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2003, 08:02:08 AM »

interesting discussion
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2003, 04:49:06 PM »

interesting discussion

Feel free to jump in and join us!  The water is fine.

Hypo-Ortho
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prodromos
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« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2003, 05:21:27 AM »

I forgot to mention that Archimandrite Sophrony died in 1993, nearly 40 years later than he expected to die since most of his stomach was removed in an operation in Paris in the mid 1950's.

John.
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« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2003, 06:19:03 AM »

I forgot to mention that Archimandrite Sophrony died in 1993, nearly 40 years later than he expected to die since most of his stomach was removed in an operation in Paris in the mid 1950's.

John.

May the memory of His servant, the Archimandrite Sophrony, be eternal!  It was largely through the efforts of Archimandrite Sophrony that the writings of St. Silouan the Athonite, scribbled on small pieces of paper, became known.  Some of these spiritual gems have been collected in a book entitled,  "Wisdom from Mount Athos," published by SVS Press some years ago, even before St. Silouan's Glorification.  I highly recommend this book for the edification of our forum members.

Hypo-Ortho
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