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Author Topic: A Rather Troubling Review of the 'Gay Cowboy' Movie  (Read 15549 times) Average Rating: 0
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GiC
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« Reply #90 on: May 18, 2006, 12:46:41 AM »

Two of my wife's aunts never married and lived together (non-sexually, for the perverts out there).ÂÂ  Why should they be forced to pay greater taxes and not be able to share their benefits?ÂÂ  Does what happens in the bedroom matter that much?ÂÂ  

A good argument for why the state should probably just step out of the marriage issue. I believe the state should take the technocratic approach, relegate marriage to the religious realm and simply not deal with it. Remove any tax bonuses for marriage (you can still keep bonuses for dependents, that's a different issue entirely), stop granting marriage licenses, and solve not only the present disputes about marriage, but all future disputes as well.

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And what about the lady I work with who is convinced her dog is equal to my children?ÂÂ  Why is she denied equal health care benefits for her beloved pet?ÂÂ  Who is anyone to judge the degree of affection one person (or beast) has for the other?ÂÂ  Why "discriminate" against "love"?

First of all, most people in this country don't get government health care benifits anyway. Secondly, the solution to this difficulity is simple, her dog doesn't fall into the definition of 'citizen' according to the 14th Amendment, if you have a 'dependent' that isn't a legal citizen of the United States I don't believe you get benifits for them either.
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« Reply #91 on: May 18, 2006, 04:28:24 AM »

So you say it coming and STILL decided to make the absurd argument...
Let's see how 'absurd' it is.
The fact of the matter is that you are neither an apostle nor one of their successors; comparing you to the apostles is like comparing apples and oranges. Suggestion, rather than the self-righteous approach of condemning your neighbour for being what you to be less than yourself, perhaps you will make greater progress gentle kindness and unconditional love. But, of course, that's assuming you're genuinely concerned and not just trying to piss them off (and hence why I take the approach I so often do here on oc.net
I don't actually compare myself to the Apostles. They are a better example than you or I. I do believe we should use them as an example, which is what I said, which is also, what you ignore (hence I 'saw that coming' as I'm aware of you having been on this forum for a short while).

The Apostles behaviour was not of silence in the face of sin. You seem to think otherwise. The Bible and Holy Tradition show us what is sinful.

You seem to think that one should meekly hide in the corner when faced with this on some kind of false idea of humility.
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« Reply #92 on: May 18, 2006, 04:31:16 AM »

Huh Do you really have a picture of God as a tyrant constantly looking over our shoulders at us and ready to pounce on us and fill us with "woe" the moment we set a foot wrong?
It sounds a very Catholic idea; the God that needs to be 'satisfied' by all the injustices

We are called to 'love one another' and not helping someone when they sin is not love.

The danger here is to be open enough to understand one's own faults
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« Reply #93 on: May 18, 2006, 08:30:42 AM »

I agree and yes I was speaking as an individual Orthodox Christian. Corporately, I am a Christian Monarchist and believe that the stark separation of Church and State advocated by post-"Enlightenment" leaning people is an artificial construct that can never lead to a God-pleasing society. I confess that I have not found the balance between speaking the truth in love and humbly judghing myself alone. Especially in a society which ever increasingly seeks to define itself in terms of "tolerance". (Isn't it odd that modern "tolerance" means accepting whatever someone to the left of your views says and castigating whatever someone to the right says............) So, my post still stands in that it is my position as an individual Orthodox Christian. As a corporate Orthodox Christian I live in a Democracy and am bound to make my voice heard at the polls whenever the opportunity arises.................

Yep this is exactly how I feel. I can not support the legalization of 'sin' in a society in which I am active.
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« Reply #94 on: May 18, 2006, 08:41:16 AM »

You seem to think that one should meekly hide in the corner when faced with this on some kind of false idea of humility.

No, I simply believe that one should 'first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.'
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« Reply #95 on: May 18, 2006, 08:49:29 AM »

Huh Do you really have a picture of God as a tyrant constantly looking over our shoulders at us and ready to pounce on us and fill us with "woe" the moment we set a foot wrong?

Sin is it's own punishment so I don't think we can label Him a tyrant. He gave us His Commandments and we Know through Scripture the moral law in which we will be rewarded or condemned I honestly don't see how one can argue that He is a tyrant for giving us just guidance but knowing your liberal views I am sure we will not be in agreement with regards to the acceptance of sin as virtue.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! - Isaiah 5:20
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« Reply #96 on: May 18, 2006, 09:57:00 PM »

this is nonetheless an interesting topic to read about, but many of you are forgetting something significant- Homosexuality is not a lifestyle/choice, but rather a disorder. This, I feel does not need to be debated.

But allowing for homosexuals to marry eachother would be hypocritical. Since love for the same sex is considered a primary symptom for this disorder, allowing them to follow through on the symptom should mean that when a schizphrenic hallucinates or hears voices, he should be encouraged to ackknlowedge the voices as real. Or better yet, schizophrenics should be told to do what the voices tell them to.

Sorry if my comparison is a little complicated, but I'm sure the majority of you will understand. Smiley
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« Reply #97 on: May 19, 2006, 02:43:46 AM »

I agree with you Sloga.
Also I`ve wanted to say to personsally.....your avatar is totally AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #98 on: May 19, 2006, 07:30:01 AM »

No, I simply believe that one should 'first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.'

In that case even the Apostles (who were sinners) would have never said that anyone was sinful.

Perhaps the phrase you use is more to do with hypocrisy; calling other's sinners, and not noticing one's own sin. I have advocated the use of self-reflection here... recognising one's own sinful nature.

You may look at these posts and notice sins. I do to. For me I am sinful in pride and arrogance. Others it is ignorance and lack of introspection.

But we all criticise one another.
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« Reply #99 on: May 19, 2006, 07:32:05 AM »

this is nonetheless an interesting topic to read about, but many of you are forgetting something significant- Homosexuality is not a lifestyle/choice, but rather a disorder. This, I feel does not need to be debated.

But allowing for homosexuals to marry eachother would be hypocritical. Since love for the same sex is considered a primary symptom for this disorder, allowing them to follow through on the symptom should mean that when a schizphrenic hallucinates or hears voices, he should be encouraged to ackknlowedge the voices as real. Or better yet, schizophrenics should be told to do what the voices tell them to.

Sorry if my comparison is a little complicated, but I'm sure the majority of you will understand. Smiley

I think it is a matter of choice. I don't know if you distinguish 'choice' from 'lifestyle choice' but I would hate to rob homosexuals of any 'choice' here by making it as if they are uncontrolably compelled to act in the way that they do.
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« Reply #100 on: May 21, 2006, 10:12:33 AM »

I think it is a matter of choice. I don't know if you distinguish 'choice' from 'lifestyle choice' but I would hate to rob homosexuals of any 'choice' here by making it as if they are uncontrolably compelled to act in the way that they do.

They do not chose to be attracted to members of the same-sex....this is a position of the church that often embarasses me when I debate with non-believers. To say the majority of Homosexuals chose to be that way is a hardheaded church position. You cannot just take all the scientific facts discovered and throw them out the window. But to participate in sodomy is a choice, a choice that can be controlled.
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« Reply #101 on: May 21, 2006, 10:19:57 AM »

They do not chose to be attracted to members of the same-sex....this is a position of the church that often embarasses me when I debate with non-believers. To say the majority of Homosexuals chose to be that way is a hardheaded church position.
The Orthodox Church doesn't actually teach that, I don't think.
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« Reply #102 on: May 21, 2006, 03:34:09 PM »

The Orthodox Church doesn't actually teach that, I don't think.

True.  Lots of Church Fathers speak of a prolipsis (I think that's right), or a predisposition towards certain behaviors or passions.  Every homosexual I've ever known (and that's quite a few, seeing as how I've been in theater since I was a little boy) has told me that this was the only natural feeling they ever knew.  For my part, I believe them.  This, to me, means that they have a cross to bear, since this particular passion is much more persistent and much more prevelant in our society.  Hence we should react w/much more compassion and understanding than judgement and hardliner, "you-chose-to-be-this-way" stance.
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« Reply #103 on: May 22, 2006, 12:30:42 PM »

Pretty active topic.

The Southern Baptist Convention has made statements in the past concerning homosexuality:

We affirm God's plan for marriage and sexual intimacy — one man, and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a "valid alternative lifestyle." The Bible condemns it as sin. It is not, however, unforgivable sin. The same redemption available to all sinners is available to homosexuals. They, too, may become new creations in Christ.

I recently read SCOBA on this:

The Orthodox Church witnesses with the Holy Scriptures and Holy Tradition that outside the community of marriage the God-pleasing use of our sexuality is found in the free choice of abstinence. For some, this may be a temporary state awaiting the formation of the mystical union of marriage. For others, this may be the narrow and demanding way of life-long commitment to chastity.

It appears to me that they are saying the same thing. I don't see a lot of room for homosexuality 'as a lifestyle' in either of these statements.
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« Reply #104 on: May 22, 2006, 01:11:39 PM »

Actually it looks like in those quotes the Baptists are specifically talking about homosexuality, whereas SCOBA is just talking about sexuality.  If you want to use that SCOBA quote for a homosexuality discussion then basically SCOBA just said that gay sex is ok in a gay marriage.
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« Reply #105 on: May 22, 2006, 04:17:21 PM »

Actually it looks like in those quotes the Baptists are specifically talking about homosexuality, whereas SCOBA is just talking about sexuality.ÂÂ  If you want to use that SCOBA quote for a homosexuality discussion then basically SCOBA just said that gay sex is ok in a gay marriage.

Hi Zoe,

Can there be a 'mystical union of marriage' between a man and another man? I know I didn't quote the whole passage but it appeared to me that what SCOBA was stating was 'very' Biblical.

What is the definition of marriage in Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #106 on: May 22, 2006, 05:02:31 PM »

Hi Zoe,

Can there be a 'mystical union of marriage' between a man and another man? I know I didn't quote the whole passage but it appeared to me that what SCOBA was stating was 'very' Biblical.

What is the definition of marriage in Orthodoxy?

Except that the Orthodox Church does not define a gay union as 'marriage'.
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« Reply #107 on: May 22, 2006, 05:17:40 PM »

Except that the Orthodox Church does not define a gay union as 'marriage'.

I'm not understanding what you are affirming?
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« Reply #108 on: May 22, 2006, 05:46:23 PM »

Sounds like he's saying what you're saying   Smiley

My point was only that the SCOBA quote was talking about sexuality in general, and where it is legit, and where it is not.  It wasn't talking about homosexuality, though I see your point.
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« Reply #109 on: May 22, 2006, 06:06:36 PM »

I'm not understanding what you are affirming?

Well, I just went to an Orthodox Wedding, so I would hope this would be easy.  Just read the passage in Ephesians.  The 'Mystical Union' or the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony is where a man and a woman are joined together where two become "one flesh" as Christ is to the Church, etc.  Besides all the stuff about homosexual being sinful, a homosexual "union"  (or marriage if you must) is just undefined.  Wait, OK, I'LL define it for you - it is deviant, and thus "missing the mark" otherwise known as SIN.
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