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Author Topic: A Rather Troubling Review of the 'Gay Cowboy' Movie  (Read 15063 times) Average Rating: 0
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Matthew777
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« on: January 29, 2006, 12:51:24 AM »

"I went to see this movie because of the good buzz surrounding the performances of the lead actors Heath and Jake. The performances are good and convincing, but the subject matter is the biggest turn off for anyone heterosexual. Certainly this film would Never have gained as much respect if it had featured a normal couple, and this is a tribute to how Hollywood and the left-wing press loves any film that has "diversity" in it. Take out the homosexuality and you have an empty film that has nothing really worthy of merit save the performances of the two leads.

It has been sensibly debuted only in limited theater release and as such is bound to be a commercial failure given it's budget and it's not so great opening weekend. No doubt the Homosexual community want to champion this film. There is also a very off putting love scene that lasts quite a while, that is very difficult to tolerate if you aren't liberal in your ideology. If you want a good film that dals with homosexuality then look at the much better philedelphia with Tom Hanks.

Above all if you want to comment on the film at least make sure you watch it, although this is such a predictably politically correct film that it really has no appeal outside of it's target audience. If you want real morality look at some of the other films on release, and forget this heavily biased propaganda vehicle."
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/B00005JOFO/ref=cm_rev_sort/103-2266111-0252635?customer-reviews.sort_by=%2BOverallRating&s=theatrical&x=6&y=12

According to this review, no heterosexual is about to appreciate a film with homosexual characters. That is rather strange, especially how much I not only enjoyed Philadelphia but own it also. We are told that this is a leftist propaganda film but oddly enough, there are a good deal of gay conservatives, both closeted and uncloseted. The reviewer expects this to be a commercial failure but again, strangely enough, it was the #1 movie in America the last time I checked. While this reviewer negatively grades it for featuring characters who are not 'normal', he claims that The 40 Year Old Virgin is 'the best comedy of the year':
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/AUITKX16DITVO/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-2266111-0252635?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Now, I haven't seen this film yet and neither do I plan on paying to see it. But I just don't understand why any film would be hated merely for featuring gay characters. It's perfectly okay for a film to feature men who crash weddings to take advantage of young women, this same reviewer seems to highly enjoy Wedding Crashers. But shepherds dealing with their closeted homosexuality and the pain that can cause? No, that's just immoral and sick.ÂÂ  Undecided
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2006, 01:28:42 AM »

the left-wing press

This may surprise you all in the US, but God is neither a republican nor a democrat.
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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2006, 01:30:50 AM »

This may surprise you all in the US, but God is neither a republican nor a democrat.

No way!  Wink Grin
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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2006, 01:47:15 AM »

No way!  Wink Grin
It's true I tell you!
And you know what else? The link between "homosexual" and "left wing" exists only in propaganda.
Homosexuality was punishable with seven years imprisonment and "re-education camps" in Soviet Russia....doesn't get much more left wing than that......
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« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2006, 01:54:04 AM »

This may surprise you all in the US, but God is neither a republican nor a democrat.

Given that God stands outside of space and time, He is neither 'right' nor 'left'. Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2006, 03:16:35 AM »

It's true I tell you!
And you know what else? The link between "homosexual" and "left wing" exists only in propaganda.
Homosexuality was punishable with seven years imprisonment and "re-education camps" in Soviet Russia....doesn't get much more left wing than that......

What does left vs. right "wing" mean, anyways?
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2006, 03:48:25 AM »

I definitely wouldn't mind seeing the film, actually.
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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2006, 12:09:58 PM »

Hopefully this won't get the thread locked for political discussion... I don't mean to be playing favorites with any particular belief system... if this post went over the line, please edit it or delete it, or just let me know not to go so far again Smiley

Quote
What does left vs. right "wing" mean, anyways?

I'm not sure if you were being facetious, but I imagine there probably are some people wondering that, so... Smiley These terms have different meanings in different countries. In America, left wing refers to the liberal side of political belief, which normally includes a focus on the environment, employment, social programs, and health care; usually this means more government and regulation, but (for the liberals) the added government produced more good than harm. The term right wing in America refers to the conservative side of political belief, and puts it's focus on less government, traditional values, lower taxes, and allowing capitalism to flourish; right wingers essentially believe that if you get the government out of people's lives and let capitalism and humanity do it's work, that people will be better and better off with each passing year. People who are liberal are generally a Democrat, or are in a small group like the Green party; while people who are conservative are generally Republican, or in a small group like the Constitution party. Normally (because of ideology) 35 or so percent of people will vote for Democrats and 35 or so percent will automatically vote for Republicans; thus it's the other 30 percent of people that candidates running for office go for, and thus the reason you see people (both left and right wing) pretending to be someone they're not, in an attempt to convince the moderate center that they are also centrists. Really, someone labeled a "left winger" or "right winger" is hard to elect to the national government; you have to convince people that you aren't too "extreme".
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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2006, 05:58:43 PM »

I'm not sure if you were being facetious,

I wasn't actually. I know nothing about politics, I vote for the person who looks like they would do a good job  Tongue

Thanks for the explaination  Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2006, 06:23:48 PM »

I definitely wouldn't mind seeing the film, actually.

Hom* Hom* on the range. Oh this is really bad. Forget it.
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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2006, 06:34:11 PM »

I wonder if this film attempts to imply anything theological. These are two gay shepherds while Jesus is the 'good shepherd', etc. etc. etc.
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« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2006, 07:28:06 PM »

I wonder if this film attempts to imply anything theological. These are two gay shepherds while Jesus is the 'good shepherd', etc. etc. etc.

No.
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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2006, 11:10:33 PM »

This is a film that invites us to feel sorry for two homosexual and adulterous cowboys, not for the families that are ruined in the wake of their perversion and selfishness. Ang Lee is a good director, so I'm sure the film is beautifully shot and wonderfully produced. I don't think anyone hates this movie because it features homosexual cowboys, but it should be avoided because it subtly attempts to equate what goes on between two homosexuals with what a man and a woman share when they fall in love and marry. There is no equivocation there and no parody, and any attempt to create such ought to be rejected by people who know better.
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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2006, 11:20:08 PM »

This is a film that invites us to feel sorry for two homosexual and adulterous cowboys, not for the families that are ruined in the wake of their perversion and selfishness. Ang Lee is a good director, so I'm sure the film is beautifully shot and wonderfully produced. I don't think anyone hates this movie because it features homosexual cowboys, but it should be avoided because it subtly attempts to equate what goes on between two homosexuals with what a man and a woman share when they fall in love and marry. There is no equivocation there and no parody, and any attempt to create such ought to be rejected by people who know better.

It's a propaganda film and I wouldn't mind seeing it for that purpose. Sometimes large rallies and protests work best for spreading propaganda (usually when the majority...or ruling minority...already agrees with you), sometimes more subtle attacks that work away at the fundamental values and notions of men (i.e. homosexuality is wrong) by playing this value against other values your audience holds dear (i.e. freedom and justice), the trick is to show that the value that you want to undermine is the less important of the two...hence the art of propaganda.
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« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2006, 11:52:06 PM »

They should have just named it "Bendover Mountain" Grin

Are these "pretty boy" cowboys?

Does the gay cowboy foreplay in this movie include the words "Hey boy, you look just like a hog." Followed up by "Come on piggy, give me a ride?"

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2006, 03:12:22 AM »

They should have just named it "Bendover Mountain" Grin


Actually, the first thought of most when seeing the title was "Bareback Mountain".
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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2006, 03:25:07 AM »


[bible]Ephesians 5:3[/bible]
If people are going to discuss this film on an Orthodox Christian board, could they do so without sinking into language and references more becoming of a brothel keeper or pornographer? I'm not sure where I will find more filth, in the film or this thread.
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« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2006, 06:24:17 AM »

[bible]Ephesians 5:3[/bible]
If people are going to discuss this film on an Orthodox Christian board, could they do so without sinking into language and references more becoming of a brothel keeper or pornographer? I'm not sure where I will find more filth, in the film or this thread.

AMEN.
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2006, 07:22:23 AM »

As an Orthodox Christian who is gay myself, I really enjoyed this movie. I wonder how many of the people on this thread that are condemning it actually have SEEN it? I didn't view it as propaganda at all, although I will respect the opinion of others who view it as such. It is not so much a pro-gay movie as it is simply a movie that HUMANIZES the gay characters and has some sympathy for them. If you follow the movie closely, you will notice that one of the shepherds, Ennis, implies that he is a virgin very early in the movie, before any sexual activity begins. He is obviously a young man that is struggling with his sexual orientation and quite grieved by it. He doesn't want to admit that he is gay and appears quite ashamed of it. He tells fellow shepherd, Jack (who is it implied is sexually experienced in gay things), that he plans to marry in the fall. Ennis is simply doing what ANY man gay man in rural 1960s America would have done at the time: marry a woman to "cure" him of the gayness. We know now that that doesn't work. But you have to remember in the 1960s, homosexuality was still classified as a mental illness. Back then if a young man had the courage to admit that he was gay to his priest or his doctor, generally the advice he was given was to get married and see if heterosexual sex could "cure" him. And this is exactly what Ennis does.  Furthermore, once Ennis gets married, he doesn't frequent gay bars or nightclubs (if even there were any there in rural Wyoming at the time, which I highly doubt). He is, at the beginning, a sincere husband and a loving father to his two children. It is only when he receives the postcard in the mail that Jack will be passing through town, that his gay passions outwardly manifest themselves. When Ennis's wife sees him and Jack kissing on the laundromat staircase, I cried. I felt so terribly sorry for the woman. The whole thing was just such a tragedy. Her heart is broken. She feels betrayed, bewildered, and fearful. And I certainly don't blame her for those feelings. I did NOT rejoice when his wife had her heart torn out like that. Nevertheless, that is a scene that straight Americans NEED to see, because it shows quite pointedly the devastating and destructive effect of that telling gay men to married straight women has: it doesn't work, and it produces heartache and tragedy for all involved. I know when I first confessed to my priest that I was gay, he suggested that I pair myself up with a woman. Perhaps she could "cure" me.  I am so glad I did not. Who would want to be that woman? The experiental guneia pig to cure the man? If I had followed my priest's advice, I could very well have ended up in a marriage like Ennis did, trapped, unhappy and having destroyed a good woman in the process. I get the impression that the Orthodox Church really has no idea how to minister to gay people and wishes we would all just go away. Now when I bring up being gay in confession, all my priest can tell me is "I don't know what to tell you."  So I guess that is the lot of the gay Orthodox Christian, live alone, be depressed the rest of your life, never know love or being loved, and die alone. And don't tell anyone else about it either, or you'll be called a pervert or like one person in my parish referred to me as a "faggot." I find it ironic that the Orthodox Church can condemn gay people, yet offer absolutely no ministries to assist us with our struggles.
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2006, 09:03:50 AM »

Quote
I get the impression that the Orthodox Church really has no idea how to minister to gay people and wishes we would all just go away.

I think you get that idea because we believe homosexuality to be a sin, and it is quite awkward to say so knowing that you will react negatively to that. Have you ever seen an Orthodox priest comfortably tell someone that they are too fat (from gluttony, not genetics), or that they drink too much alcohol? Since each person is different, who would really knows how to minister to such people, until you actually get down to the work of trying to help. Many times, it is probably easier just to sit back and use platitudes from the pulpit or the pew, rather than face the pain, rejection, and possibly rage of someone you respect but think is spiritually harming themselves. The Orthodox Church does offer a "ministry" for gay people: the same one it offers fornicators like me, and adulterers, and all other manner of sinners (which includes everyone). The difference is that the ministry is not some special group with literature like "Living With Homosexuality in the 21st Century Orthodox Church," support groups meeting each Thursday, etc. Orthodoxy offers the sacraments, virtues, etc. Whether that works for you or not is your call, I suppose, but I believe it is incorrect to say that she "offers absolutely no ministries to assist us with our struggles," when the Church's entire existence (at her best if you take advantage of it) is to help assist both you and I in our struggles. This is the internal mission of the Church. Please don't be mad because we are not giving your issue a special classification and recognizing you as being different; made in the image of God, you are of course unique and precious, yet being a human you are nonetheless a sinner just like the rest of us.
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2006, 09:18:46 AM »

Please don't be mad because we are not giving your issue a special classification
Who do you mean by "we"? Isn't Tikhon our brother, a fellow Orthodox Christian with whom we are united in the Blood of Christ. If, as you say, he is a sinner like the rest of us, why do you seperate "we" from him?
I think you're being a bit simplistic, Asteriktos. After reflecting on what Thikon said, I think, gay people are in a unique position in the Church. They have no choice like the rest of us when it comes to celibacy. Even a former murderer is permitted to fall in love and marry.
So I guess that is the lot of the gay Orthodox Christian, live alone, be depressed the rest of your life, never know love or being loved, and die alone.
Thanks Tikhon, for {yet another) enlightening post. And I always thought the hardest part of being gay would be the prohibitive standards of personal hygiene. Cheesy
I'll try to see the film this weekend and let you know what I think.

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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2006, 09:48:29 AM »

It is interesting to see how the interplay between Orthodoxy and the culture here has created this ackward situation of clergy and laity not knowing how to pastorally support members of the Church who happen to be gay.  On the level of dealing with someone's relationship to the Church and to Christ, the point made above that there is no special classification is right on.  Sinners, all of us.  It is unfortunate when some members of the body decide that one particular sin - extramarital sex - is more grave than the others, and that one form of this sin - extramarital sex with the same gender - is more serious than the other form.  In the process, they a) create a hierarchy of sin that doesn't exist, and b) they group all persons who are gay into a group - often knowingly or unknowingly treating every gay person they come across as a "gay fornicator" - even if their virginity is still intact (and I mean virginity on all levels, not just the physical).
But what adds to this problem of pastors and laity not knowing how to explain Christ's all-encompassing love to a member in need is the fact that they also do not know how to spiritually and emotionally support said member through their unique social situation; and this deficiency magnifies the problems within the relationship between members of the Church!

The end of the epistle reading for Sts. Cosmas and Damian (which was read today) is quite appropos; and let's hope that the unmercenary healers (especially Cyrus and John, whom we commemorate today) can intercede for us that all may be brought to Christ in love:

[bible]1Corinthians 13:1-8[/bible]
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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2006, 10:26:49 AM »

They should have just named it "Bendover Mountain" Grin

Are these "pretty boy" cowboys?

Does the gay cowboy foreplay in this movie include the words "Hey boy, you look just like a hog." Followed up by "Come on piggy, give me a ride?"

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy



This is just another attempt among many, by the Hollywood elite in trying to shove homosexuality down the throats of middle America.  Box office reciepts are reflecting the turn off by most Americans.   "Capote" is another although it is a story of Truman in his writings of "In Cold Blood".   Hollywood feels that the more we are exposed to this sordid lifestyle the less sensitive we will become.  They may be right, but who knows.

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« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2006, 10:27:54 AM »

Actually, the first thought of most when seeing the title was "Bareback Mountain".

These guys are not Cowboys, they are Sheepboys.  Where are the steers?
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« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2006, 10:56:23 AM »

I personally think that the Orthodox Church is biased against homosexuals more than other sinners.  Coming from a priest's family background, I have witnessed many times how people ostracize others who they think MIGHT be gay. 

Other sins have fallen by the wayside.  When at one time children out of wedlock was deeply frowned upon, it is now, if not a common sight, then one that you see from time to time.  Luckily, times have changed, and much of the time, these unwed mothers & fathers are welcomed back and supported. 

I also know several people who have served their time in prison for drugs, robbery, etc.  These people are also welcomed back most of the time, with the assumption that they have repented.

Alcoholics, people don't even blink at usually.

Fat people (me included)?  no problem, as long as you don't eat us outta house & home, eat on.

People who are known to lie and cheat are in our midst, and nothing is done about that most of the time.

And yet I've seen people whisper "him, over there, they say he's gay..." and after that, this person is forever suspect.  Guys are more cautious around him, women rarely take them seriously.  Behind their back, things are said.  The person starts to feel estranged from a group of people he's/she's known their entire life.  This leads to depression, anger, and emotions we probably don't even know about because we've never felt that alone. 

It is also assumed that if the person is gay, he/she has acted upon it.  That is between him/her, their priest, and God, just like our sins are. 

And as for this movie... how many people have watched movies like The Godfather or Scarface, and enjoyed it?  Watching people being killed, usually without a second thought.  Movies like that Orthodox people watch every day, and don't give it a second thought.

 I haven't seen this movie, but I've read reviews, and also from what Tihon said, it sounds like a well thought out depiction of people struggling with themselves, just as we all do.  The fact that these 2 men FAILED to resist temptation should have earn them compassion & prayers, not condemnation.
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« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2006, 12:01:28 PM »

Tikhon, George & Cleveland,

     Thank you all for the wonderfully enlightening posts.  I think something that often perplexes me is the reaction of some within our Church and an apparent lack of compassion for our brothers and sisters.  I find myself asking "where is the love".  Your posts answer a lot.  Thanks again.
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« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2006, 12:31:51 PM »

Tikhon, all I have to say is BRAVO!  Grin Cheesy Your perspective is very very very necessary.


Personally, I have not seen this movie because I'm not a fan of Westerns.

However, I do have some expertise and knowlege of the "gay community" because my sister is gay. (Use the advanced search I have posted about this before) It seems to me that Orthodox Christians, clergy included A. do not know how to minister to the gay community B. Have taken thier cue for thier treatment of gays and lesbians from crackpots such as Jerry Falwell who make no bones about shunning, mistreating or otherwise assaulting someone for being gay. C. Have a very backwards view homosexuality. Believing in the "scare em straight" or suggest that they marry someone of the opposite sex

We (Orthodox Christians) need to start showing compassion and kindness towards gays and lesbians who view Christians as one giant hateful lump of humanity.
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« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2006, 12:42:45 PM »

This is just another attempt among many, by the Hollywood elite in trying to shove homosexuality down the throats of middle America.  Box office reciepts are reflecting the turn off by most Americans.  ÃƒÆ’‚ "Capote" is another although it is a story of Truman in his writings of "In Cold Blood".  ÃƒÆ’‚ Hollywood feels that the more we are exposed to this sordid lifestyle the less sensitive we will become.  They may be right, but who knows.

As I said, it's a propaganda film, nothing inhrently wrong with that, we may object to what is being advocated but that is not reason to not enjoy the skill and art involved in making any good propaganda film. While I have not seen the movie, from what I understand of it the writers used American values and sensitivities to try and advocate a posistion that is unpopular in the country today, and from what I understand was quite successful at it...that's an artistic accomplishment is to be appreciated, even if you disagree with the politics. Likewise, no objective person could object to the asthetic value and artistic ability of Leni Riefenstahl in Triumph des Willens and Tag der Freiheit which were made for the Nuremberg Rallies, regardless of what is thought of the politics depicted. Art in general, and propaganda art in particular (which is a particular favourite of mine, go figure, but can be harder to be objective about), should be judged on it own merits, it should be judged on whether or not it was successful by its own criteria, not by the criteria of others.
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« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2006, 01:49:39 PM »

I get the impression that the Orthodox Church really has no idea how to minister to gay people and wishes we would all just go away.

Leaving aside the viewpoint of the Church. Personally, although not a politically correct statement, I wish they would. I am sick to death of the attempt to portray a "gay culture" as "normal". It is no more normal than bestiality is normal.
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« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2006, 02:43:46 PM »

Leaving aside the viewpoint of the Church. Personally, although not a politically correct statement, I wish they would. I am sick to death of the attempt to portray a "gay culture" as "normal". It is no more normal than bestiality is normal.


First of all, I don't see how you can compare the two. An animal cannot give consent to have sex with a human. A better comparison would be to compare two hetrosexual couples who engage in group sex.

Gay relationships are not "normal" as two men or two women cannot procreate. I won't argue that "gay culture" is not vapid, narcissistic, drug addled and victims of its own lust. However, there are gay people who do not give in to common gay culture. They may be struggling with thier sexuality.   We as christians need to show compassion and your above statement is ignorant and shows no compassion to those that are struggling with homosexuality.
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« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2006, 02:51:14 PM »

Leaving aside the viewpoint of the Church. Personally, although not a politically correct statement, I wish they would. I am sick to death of the attempt to portray a "gay culture" as "normal". It is no more normal than bestiality is normal.

I don't think anyone who takes the Orthodox faith seriously would attempt to call homosexual sexual activity "normal."  There are, however, people like Tikhon29605 who live, day-in and day-out, with the reality of experiencing a same-sex attraction which will more than likely not just "go away."  They understand the Church's standard of mandatory celibacy and yet they still convert, choosing (I would assume) to take up the cross of denying themselves the satisfaction of acting on their desires.

So the question becomes, istm, not, "Are we attempting to portray a 'gay culture' as 'normal' within the Orthodox Church?" but rather, "Since there are members of the Orthodox Church who struggle with this particular and relatively unknown-about cross, how are we, as brothers and sisters to these people, going to be able to reach out to them in compassion and understanding when we have precious little actual life experience in this area, if any?"
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« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2006, 03:06:01 PM »


First of all, I don't see how you can compare the two. An animal cannot give consent to have sex with a human. A better comparison would be to compare two hetrosexual couples who engage in group sex.

I didn't say that it was LIKE bestiality - i said that it was as ABNORMAL as it.
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« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2006, 04:29:44 PM »

Leaving aside the viewpoint of the Church........I wish they would. I am sick to death of the attempt to portray a "gay culture" as "normal". It is no more normal than bestiality is normal.
Errr.... If you're gonna put aside the teaching of the Church, the same thing could be said about monastic culture, which is also a life against nature. Perhaps we need to not put aside the teaching of the Church. Perhaps what we need to do is listen to the whole teaching of the Church, and not only those parts which suit our agenda.
The Orthodox Church also teaches us to love and have compassion and not to judge and that everything can be saved. It is the psychotic protestant TV "evangelists" who teach people to have the attitude: "It's nothing personal, but God told me to hate you and make you feel inferior and unwelcome."
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« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2006, 02:49:08 AM »

Anyone who compares homosexuality to beastiality has a lack of sympathy for our gay brothers and sisters.
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« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2006, 03:44:51 AM »

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Anyone who compares homosexuality to beastiality has a lack of sympathy for our gay brothers and sisters.

Sounds like someone has an agenda... Roll Eyes  Both are condenmed by God and the Saints/Church.
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« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2006, 04:26:22 AM »

In that sense, talking with a menstrating woman is condemned by God.
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« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2006, 05:10:01 AM »

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In that sense, talking with a menstrating woman is condemned by God.

Really? Is that as recent as NT writings such as Romans ch. 1 which condemn you know what? We wouldn't want to offend your 21'st century sensibilities and all the left - wing buddies you hang out with in Seattle so maybe we should just leave it at that.
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« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2006, 06:13:44 PM »

Really? Is that as recent as NT writings such as Romans ch. 1 which condemn you know what?

Homosexuality would not be an exchange of natural desires for the unnatural if people are biologically homosexual.

We wouldn't want to offend your 21'st century sensibilities

Do you mean science?

all the left - wing buddies you hang out with in Seattle so maybe we should just leave it at that.

I live in Eastern Washington, which is one of the most predominantly Republican areas in the nation.
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« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2006, 08:31:30 PM »

Really? Is that as recent as NT writings such as Romans ch. 1 which condemn you know what? We wouldn't want to offend your 21'st century sensibilities and all the left - wing buddies you hang out with in Seattle so maybe we should just leave it at that.

Why do you keep making comments about the "left-wing"? You were warned about it earlier. http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=8146.msg106691#msg106691
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« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2006, 09:29:08 PM »

Well that will teach me for trying to come to the Church's defense! Sorry, won't happen again. Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2006, 04:45:06 PM »

I think that with most of these negative responses, it has more to do with personal prejudice then "defending" the Church's teachings. Many hide behind the Church''s teaching if they think it fits in with a particular "hate" of theirs. 
  Tikhon, you are an inspiration and thank you for speaking up!!! 
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« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2006, 10:28:33 PM »

Ditto my last post. With emphasis. Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2006, 05:02:56 PM »

Many hide behind the Church''s teaching if they think it fits in with a particular "hate" of theirs. 

Word.  Cool
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« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2006, 10:26:23 PM »

I guess it's easier for some people to make vague, ignorant comments about people they know almost nothing about, than to actually try and discuss an issue or refute someone's points.

Hey, I was right, that is easy! I should do that more often. Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2006, 11:05:57 AM »

I'll try to see the film this weekend and let you know what I think.
Well, it's been three months, but the movie finally came to our local theatre here in country NSW yeaterday (yes, life runs at a rather slower pace here in our little mountain village) , and I went and saw it tonight.  Excellently shot. Beautiful landscape. But possibly the most challenging and depressing film I've seen. I need a cognac....
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« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2006, 12:41:39 PM »

I don't accept this biological stuff - as if God created evil Undecided   People who practice sodomy should be pitied - yes! condoned - No! The same applies to adulterers and fornicators.  The Church knows what to do - leave it at that.
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« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2006, 06:28:12 PM »

I don't see this film as sending a good message, not because it promotes gay rights but because it condones adultery.
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« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2006, 07:04:54 PM »

People who practice sodomy should be pitied
People who have a "surfeit of bread" should be pitied?...... Undecided
I don't see why- it's just plain greed as far as I'm concerned. We should all share our bread.
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« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2006, 07:37:42 PM »

I don't accept this biological stuff - as if God created evil Undecided  ÃƒÆ’‚ People who practice sodomy should be pitied - yes! condoned - No! The same applies to adulterers and fornicators.  The Church knows what to do - leave it at that.

Ok I havent posted in this topic because of my strong opinion on homosexuality. This is the only thing that I feel that church is wrong on.

To deny that the majority of Homosexuals are born that way, is equal to denying that the Earth revolves around the sun.

It is scientifically proven that gay men have fingerprints more similar to women than straight men. When do fingerprints form? during the second trimaster of pregnancy, which means they are gay before they leave the womb.

This of course means it is not a lifestyle or choice, but it rather comes down to whether it is "nature" or "nurture". Genetics (nature) makes sense, but how could it be nurture even if hasnt been brought up yet? The answer I provide to you also answers why one twin may be gay, but the other identical twin may be straight:::

Quote
Although identical twins have identical genes and almost always share a placenta, they do have their individual umbilical cords, providing subtle differences in the chemical environment for the developing brain. There are differences in identical twins, such as fingerprints, which are unique in each individual. Fingerprints are formed during the second trimester of pregnancy; lesbians often share a unique fingerprint swirl, adding to the mounting evidence that homosexuality is caused by genetic susceptibility triggered by the prenatal hormonal environment.

Which means that while you are pregnant, there are some external factors that can affect the development of the babies genes. This means that once the baby has initially formed, it is infact heterosexual, until an unkown cause (possibly stress, certain chemicals etc) affects the formation of the brain and genetic code which results in the formation of homosexuality.

This is of course the majority of self declared homosexuals. I believe a bigger problem exists within our society, which is teaching our kids that they have a choice, to be gay or straight. Of course, now you have kids chosing to be gay when infact they are biologically straight.

Movies such as this only make the general population feel that homosexuality is a normal part of society, thus not attempting to fix the problem.
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« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2006, 08:16:46 PM »

We all have sinful instincts, that doesn't mean that we need to act on them.
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« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2006, 08:45:24 PM »

Movies such as this only make the general population feel that homosexuality is a normal part of society
Um, have you actually seen the film? I don't think you could make this claim if you had.
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« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2006, 09:07:05 PM »

Um, have you actually seen the film? I don't think you could make this claim if you had.

No I have not seen the movie. Sorry, I meant to say that the majority of movies make an affect on society and portraying it as a normal healthy lifestyle. I was assuming that this movie is like most others, but I'll take your word and admit I was mistaken.
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« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2006, 09:26:57 PM »

Sloga,

Where did you get this information about homosexual tendencies being reflected and perceptible in fingerprints?  Have to say I've never heard that one before...

Still haven't seen it.  Don't much care to.  Don't much need to.  I've seen the real-life version tragically rip a family apart.
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« Reply #53 on: May 13, 2006, 09:33:23 PM »

I've seen the real-life version tragically rip a family apart.
Just like in the film.
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« Reply #54 on: May 13, 2006, 09:41:50 PM »

I found the film disturbing because it caused me to reflect on the experiences of Orthodox friend I have met on this forum who has struggled with homosexuality all his life, and when he finally confessed this to a Priest, the Confessor advised him to marry. After long deliberation, my friend has left the Church because of this advice. I have to wonder how many tragic divorces could be avoided if we came up with a few more creative options for same-sex attracted persons in the Church other than advising them to marry?
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« Reply #55 on: May 13, 2006, 10:07:31 PM »

Sloga,

Where did you get this information about homosexual tendencies being reflected and perceptible in fingerprints?ÂÂ  Have to say I've never heard that one before...


http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod.htm  --very good article comparing religion with society on Homosexuality.
http://www.gaysouthafrica.org.za/homosexuality/studies.asp
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/55169.stm

Its everywhere if you look for it, I did an opinion essay on Homosexuality so I have background info on it.

Quote
I found the film disturbing because it caused me to reflect on the experiences of Orthodox friend I have met on this forum who has struggled with homosexuality all his life, and when he finally confessed this to a Priest, the Confessor advised him to marry. After long deliberation, my friend has left the Church because of this advice. I have to wonder how many tragic divorces could be avoided if we came up with a few more creative options for same-sex attracted persons in the Church other than advising them to marry?

I do not even want to consider myself being in your friend's position, unbelievably difficult. One thing about the Orthodox faith that makes a negative affect is that it is a very hard-headed faith, sometimes refusing to adapt to todays world and it's people. Do I believe gay-marriage should be legalized? No. Do I believe gays should be killed? No. Do I believe it is possible to change? possibly, because no one should ever underestimate the powers of God and the human brain.Having said that, homosexuality is not just a problem for the person, but children of same-sex parents encounter deep psychological and social problems.

I feel that the only solution is to find the cause, because it is agreeable that it is a result of a problem, not a normal lifestyle. If we ever find the cause, we can begin to prevent it. My heart goes out to all of them, but until people come to terms and view it as a defect (It sounds harsh I know), there can never be a cure and more people will be born gay and will have to go though what your friend went through.
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« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2006, 10:27:10 PM »

until people come to terms and view it as a defect (It sounds harsh I know), there can never be a cure and more people will be born gay and will have to go though what your friend went through.
Even if we don't have the answers yet, they still don't "have" to go through it if our Priests stop telling them that they "have to marry". There is no imperative on Christians to marry- monastacism bears witness to that fact. Yes, same-sex attacted people may have to live alone if they wish to be part of the Church, but couldn't we find some way of making this easier for them? Isn't it enough that they are celibate without compounding their loneliness by making them feel ostracised in our Parishes?
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« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2006, 07:39:43 AM »

It's true I tell you!
And you know what else? The link between "homosexual" and "left wing" exists only in propaganda.
Homosexuality was punishable with seven years imprisonment and "re-education camps" in Soviet Russia....doesn't get much more left wing than that......
A friend of mine (yes, I do have them), is a Trotskyist, atheist, and homosexual. He seems pretty clued up on communist history. He told me proudly that at the time of Lennin, all forms of sexuality were legalised, including homosexuality and incest.
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« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2006, 07:44:53 AM »

Who do you mean by "we"? Isn't Tikhon our brother, a fellow Orthodox Christian with whom we are united in the Blood of Christ. If, as you say, he is a sinner like the rest of us, why do you seperate "we" from him?
Is there a difference between two people; both sinners, but one constantly regrets their sin and tries not to sin, and the other who rejoices in their sin?
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« Reply #59 on: May 14, 2006, 07:45:54 AM »

I found the film disturbing because it caused me to reflect on the experiences of Orthodox friend I have met on this forum who has struggled with homosexuality all his life, and when he finally confessed this to a Priest, the Confessor advised him to marry. After long deliberation, my friend has left the Church because of this advice. I have to wonder how many tragic divorces could be avoided if we came up with a few more creative options for same-sex attracted persons in the Church other than advising them to marry?
What advice would you have given him in order to stop him sinning?
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« Reply #60 on: May 14, 2006, 08:00:26 AM »

What advice would you have given him in order to stop him sinning?
I don't know that I consider him as sinning, montalban. And even if he were, what business is it of mine to judge another as sinning and correct them? What advice do you give your friends when you judge them as being sinful?
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« Reply #61 on: May 14, 2006, 08:24:25 AM »

I don't know that I consider him as sinning, montalban.
If he's practicing homosexual acts, then yes he is.
And even if he were, what business is it of mine to judge another as sinning and correct them?
Judgment is up to God. However God did give us guidelines on what is a sin, and He also said we should love our neighbours. Sin is putting yourself away from God. Endangering your immortal soul. Why would a friend want that to happen?
What advice do you give your friends when you judge them as being sinful?
I believe that it's honest to be mutually supportive. Homosexuality, I don't know about specifically. My friend who is happy in his homosexuality knows that I consider it a sin. But as he's an atheist, then arguments about saving one's self don't rub. And conversely when I sin in my own lustful desires, and I do, then he thinks that this is great, and encourages me, so he's not 'supportive' in the Christian sense for me.

A Catholic friend of mine tells me I'm going to hell for being ex-Catholic (reasoning that as I've knowingly turned my back on 'the' Church I'm in danger). So I know how it feels for people to say these things. I of course disagree with him, because I don't think that the mere fact I'm not Catholic is sinful. However he has prayed for me to help me overcome my lustful desires.

I think with all problems the first step is to realise there is one. Friends saying that there is no problem is like alcoholic's families cleaning up after them, rather than forcing them to face their problems.
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« Reply #62 on: May 14, 2006, 08:38:08 AM »

Judgment is up to God.
This is the only thing I could agree with in your post.

A Catholic friend of mine tells me I'm going to hell for being ex-Catholic......So I know how it feels for people to say these things.
If I had that experience, then I would probably make sure I didn't do the same thing to anyone else.
I think we will all be surprised at who is and isn't admitted to the Kingdom on that Last and Glorious Day- so it's best to just concentrate on fixing our own sinfulness rather than fixing others.
And anyway, we are all close to drowning with our heads just above the water, so I am in no position to save anyone. There is no point in trying to save my friends when I'm not even saved myself.

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« Reply #63 on: May 14, 2006, 03:37:41 PM »

If he's practicing homosexual acts, then yes he is.Judgment is up to God. However God did give us guidelines on what is a sin, and He also said we should love our neighbours. Sin is putting yourself away from God. Endangering your immortal soul. Why would a friend want that to happen?I believe that it's honest to be mutually supportive. Homosexuality, I don't know about specifically. My friend who is happy in his homosexuality knows that I consider it a sin. But as he's an atheist, then arguments about saving one's self don't rub. And conversely when I sin in my own lustful desires, and I do, then he thinks that this is great, and encourages me, so he's not 'supportive' in the Christian sense for me.

A Catholic friend of mine tells me I'm going to hell for being ex-Catholic (reasoning that as I've knowingly turned my back on 'the' Church I'm in danger). So I know how it feels for people to say these things. I of course disagree with him, because I don't think that the mere fact I'm not Catholic is sinful. However he has prayed for me to help me overcome my lustful desires.

I think with all problems the first step is to realise there is one. Friends saying that there is no problem is like alcoholic's families cleaning up after them, rather than forcing them to face their problems.

I agree completely with your post, especially the last little bit..

Quote
I think we will all be surprised at who is and isn't admitted to the Kingdom on that Last and Glorious Day- so it's best to just concentrate on fixing our own sinfulness rather than fixing others.
And anyway, we are all close to drowning with our heads just above the water, so I am in no position to save anyone.

I dont know about you, but I want to share the Kingdom of Heaven my father, my mother, my brother, my sister and my good friends.

Quote
There is no point in trying to save my friends when I'm not even saved myself

that is something quite self-centred to say, something I dont think Jesus would be proud of. I dont think you read over that comment you made, I suggest you do.
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« Reply #64 on: May 14, 2006, 04:44:18 PM »

What advice would you have given him in order to stop him sinning?

I usually ask myself the same question when faced with a difficult pastoral situation: "What should I do? What can I say that will make person X believe Y, or person W do Z?" But these questions -- this entire line of thinking -- are actually part of the reason why we, as Christians (and pastoral caregivers in particular!), often do such a poor job of reaching out to our brothers and sisters. We are tempted to think of ourselves, especially our words, as a "solution", or as a means to stop someone from doing something. We are tempted, in other words, to think of ourselves as the Savior; to imagine that the goal of our pastoral interaction is to convince someone to do something or to believe something. Thus, our focus is actually not on the person who needs help, but on ourselves, our plan and our words.

What should one do when faced with a person with a difficult pastoral problem? Not give advice. Not spout off theology. Not figure out in your head -- while they are talking to you! -- what really amazing, really true thing you can say next in order to accomplish YOUR desires. No. It's very simple. Just listen and pray.

Listen and pray. Actually enter into a relationship with the person! Extend love and care to them. Only after one has a relationship of mutual trust can "advice" really mean anything. As a certain professor of pastoral care likes to say: "People don't care what you know, until they know that you care."
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« Reply #65 on: May 14, 2006, 06:11:37 PM »

What should one do when faced with a person with a difficult pastoral problem? Not give advice. Not spout off theology. Not figure out in your head -- while they are talking to you! -- what really amazing, really true thing you can say next in order to accomplish YOUR desires. No. It's very simple. Just listen and pray.

Listen and pray. Actually enter into a relationship with the person! Extend love and care to them. Only after one has a relationship of mutual trust can "advice" really mean anything. As a certain professor of pastoral care likes to say: "People don't care what you know, until they know that you care."
Thanks for putting so eloquently what my experience bears out. I would have said something like "you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar", but of course that would not have got the point across as clearly as what you said.
People today are tired and life is complicated enough to steer through without us adding yet another voice to the cacophony. Not too long ago I read an article about an incident in Moscow in which a group of Orthodox "Christian" babushkas (old women) carrying Icons joined in with a group of extreme right-wing skinheads to protest a gay nightclub which had just opened the city. The gay people attempting to enter the venue had to be evacuated. So what was the message that these Icon toting "babushkas" gave the gay people? That Orthodox Christianity is no different to neo-nazi fascism, and they have the same agenda...
If people are lost as a result of our giving the wrong message about Christ (no matter how well intentioned), who will answer for it on the Day of Judgement? May we be spared from hearing the judgement from God on that Last Day that: "the Name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." (Romans 2:24)
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« Reply #66 on: May 15, 2006, 03:35:14 AM »

This is the only thing I could agree with in your post.
So you don't believe God gave us any idea of what is a sin?
 Tongue
If I had that experience, then I would probably make sure I didn't do the same thing to anyone else.
He had the right intentions. He just missed out on what is a sin. The Bible, the church, clearly point out homosexuality is a sin. Being an ex-Catholic is not so universally recognised as sinful  Grin
I think we will all be surprised at who is and isn't admitted to the Kingdom on that Last and Glorious Day- so it's best to just concentrate on fixing our own sinfulness rather than fixing others.
Do you know what sins you've done?
And anyway, we are all close to drowning with our heads just above the water, so I am in no position to save anyone. There is no point in trying to save my friends when I'm not even saved myself.
And yet the Apostles and Saints, recognising that they were sinful helped others, and called on each other to help one another.
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« Reply #67 on: May 15, 2006, 03:42:04 AM »

Thanks for putting so eloquently what my experience bears out. I would have said something like "you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar",
Sure, but when pressed with what advice you'd give, you said none, so you're not catching any flies with no bait; avoiding telling people the truth is not a way to help people.
but of course that would not have got the point across as clearly as what you said.
People today are tired and life is complicated enough to steer through without us adding yet another voice to the cacophony.
All the more reason that people hear the right message. (and that's not 'no message')
Not too long ago I read an article about an incident in Moscow in which a group of Orthodox "Christian" babushkas (old women) carrying Icons joined in with a group of extreme right-wing skinheads to protest a gay nightclub which had just opened the city. The gay people attempting to enter the venue had to be evacuated. So what was the message that these Icon toting "babushkas" gave the gay people? That Orthodox Christianity is no different to neo-nazi fascism, and they have the same agenda...
Really? My gay/left-wing friend is so pro-Moslem (believing that they're an oppressed minority !!!) I find hard to believe because allying himself with a group that, if it were in power would execute him is odd. So odd combinations do occur.
If people are lost as a result of our giving the wrong message about Christ (no matter how well intentioned), who will answer for it on the Day of Judgement? May we be spared from hearing the judgement from God on that Last Day that: "the Name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." (Romans 2:24)
Ineed, but again avoiding warning people is not the message of the Apostles

Imagine St. Paul entering Corinth and standing in the middle of the crowd and saying "You are sinners, but I don't want to distract you from that; I know how busy you all are; I'll just go sit over there in the corner and not say anything more"

PS, I also love The Scotsman!
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« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2006, 04:40:27 AM »

when pressed with what advice you'd give, you said none, so you're not catching any flies with no bait;

Montalban,
One
day
I
hope
you
learn
the
value
of
silence
and
presence.
There
are
many
ways
to
communicate
without
words:
a smile,
tears,
touch....

Most
of
the
time
people
just
switch
off
when
we
talk
too
much.
I
know
I
do.
George.
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« Reply #69 on: May 15, 2006, 04:48:36 AM »

Montalban, One day  I hope  you  learn  the  value of silence and  presence.  There are  many ways to
communicate without  words: a smile, tears, touch....
Sure, that's what the Apostles were known for. Smiling quietly all the time.  Grin
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« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2006, 08:11:14 AM »

Sure, that's what the Apostles were known for. Smiling quietly all the time.

 Smiley
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« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2006, 08:16:16 AM »

Smiley
I thought that this quote might work well, but on reading it, I'm now not so sure. Still, I post it to promote discussion... (I've highlighted the bit that I first thought was the killer blow)

1 Corinthians 2:6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
   "No eye has seen,
      no ear has heard,
   no mind has conceived
   what God has prepared for those who love him"— 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
      The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
 16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
      that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
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« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2006, 09:21:22 AM »

 Smiley
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« Reply #73 on: May 15, 2006, 10:43:22 AM »

Sure, that's what the Apostles were known for. Smiling quietly all the time.ÂÂ  Grin

So you think you're some apostle now, do you? You think you have some sublime spiritual discernment? I'm not quite as kind and loving as ozgeorge, so have some different emoticons for you,  Cheesy Roll Eyes Cheesy
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« Reply #74 on: May 15, 2006, 11:28:11 AM »



B. Have taken their cue for their treatment of gays and lesbians from crackpots such as Jerry Falwell who make no bones about shunning, mistreating or otherwise assaulting someone for being gay.ÂÂ  

Umm, how do you know this?  I live in the Jerry bubble, and I know him personally.  This is categorically false.  The man is not squeamish in the least about calling homosexuality a sin, but then he isn't squeamish about calling adultery a sin. Period.  ÃƒÆ’‚  How is that mistreatment?
I for one am sick of walking around on eggshells near gay people because if you say *anything* you are bashing or mistreating them.ÂÂ  
What I can't figure out is why protestant ministries are on the ball in ministering to the gay community, even if some fall short, and Orthodox don't seem to have anything available.ÂÂ  Sexual sin, or sexual brokenness (of spirit) of ANY kind is an area where the Church should be reaching folks.ÂÂ  It doesn't matter if it's a porn addiction for a hetero man, the resulting devastation for the wife, sexual molestation as a child, or a past that has led to homosexual issues.ÂÂ  Whatever the root, the cause, where is the church?

As far as being sick of the agenda of the gay community, yeah...I can honestly say I am.  My dd's gay uncle uses the whole "it's all Jerry's fault" for every single thing that happens in his life.  The same guy molested my dd before he "came out", so it just is so much an issue of brokenness for my mind.  Doesn't mean it's limited to the gay community in any way, everyone's got some mess in their lives.  It's just NOT what God had for any of us to be gay, and if Jerry Falwell says that bluntly-too bad.  ÃƒÆ’‚  I don't agree with his doctrine on a lot of things, but the guy is not chicken about saying what is wrong in an era where most are afraid to stand up for what is right.  That isn't bashing, it's just the blunt truth.  Christians SHOULD be ministering to others, gay or straight.  But they shouldn't have to sugar coat the truth either.  Would a gay man support a sugar coated white-washed admonition against a baby rapist, or a man that likes to abduct small boys for his sexual pleasure?  Sin is sin, wrong is still wrong.  

I cannot stand it when anyone, hetero or homo, wears their sexuality on their sleeve.ÂÂ  It seems that many in the gay community do exactly that, and they happen to be in positions to push their agenda.ÂÂ  Enough already.ÂÂ  Keep your sexuality to yourself, no matter who you have it with.ÂÂ  If you are going to go against scriptural laws and requirements, accept that it's against scriptural laws and requirements.ÂÂ  don't bash those that say it's against God's laws, and don't expect the entire world to cater their belief's to yours. Don't parade down the streets of America with your naked partner. Gay people seem to demand that everyone accept their behavior as "normal" when it just isn't, and it does make good people uncomfortable.ÂÂ  Because it's just not right.ÂÂ  Does that mean I support gay bashing?ÂÂ  NoÂÂ  Do I think it's okay to mistreat or shun gay folks?ÂÂ  NoÂÂ  But does the gay community have to project their beliefs onto my children?ÂÂ  No, they have no right whatsoever.ÂÂ  I can't stand how the gay community elevates themselves above the rest of us, and then demands we accept their behavior as normal.ÂÂ  Dude, it's just sex with the same gender.ÂÂ  There seems to be no perspective.ÂÂ  Huh Sexual behavior was created by God to work in one parameter, anything outside of that is wrong.ÂÂ  period.ÂÂ  
I dont' mean to sound harsh at all, I just expect educated men and women who call themselves Christian to stand on truth-not emotion or politically correct pop psychology.
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« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2006, 09:55:59 PM »

"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being”

“AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals” (Jerry waxing Robertson-esque)

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« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2006, 01:27:27 AM »

So you think you're some apostle now, do you? You think you have some sublime spiritual discernment? I'm not quite as kind and loving as ozgeorge, so have some different emoticons for you,
LOL!
Wow I didn't see that one coming !!!  Roll Eyes

I'll walk you through this slowly...
They themselves were sinners.

The Apostles give us an example of how to behave.
They did this through their own words and behaviour.
They never were silent in the face of sin.

We should follow their examples. We should seek to have our sins forgiven, but we should also seek to help others in over-coming their sins, and ask that they help us.

Sitting silently by doesn't help. I do recognise that there might have been saints who went off into the desert or into caves, or onto columns to pray and be alone. However I don't see you advocating that in the face of sin we should do that either.
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« Reply #77 on: May 16, 2006, 09:46:41 AM »

Haven't heard those alleged quotes, and at the risk of supporting the guy, I will say this.  He is oft misquoted because he has the intestinal fortitude to say homosexuality is wrong.  Never one to be pc, he calls it what it is.  I don't think God is truly pleased when we condone any sexually impure behaviour.

Ours is a sexually depraved society, like Sodom and Gomorrah of old.  I have heard him make that reference, and I can't see any patristic teaching that proves him wrong.
All the guy has to work with is the Bible, and that is clear enough as to whether HS is wrong.  Mel White lived right across the street from the church, and he constantly caused trouble just to do it.  He wasn't furthering the gay cause in any way.
AND, Jerry welcomed Mel's "church" into services (I was still there then, grew up there)
We attended church that day right along with them all, and it was just fine.
However, when we walked out to cross the street i had my kids in tow and the protesters accosted me and my babies.  They were the Christian front that said "God hates gays" and all that.  It was the freaky fringe of Christianity that was being cruel, not Jerry.  But all Christians are lumped together, just like all gays are lumped together.
I have to believe not all gay folks are political firebrands, out to indoctrinate MY children and attend nude parades to shock and appall the country. 
There is no reason to give special rights to any group of people simply because they have a different sexual behavior.  (or wear a certain brand of clothes, or color of lipstick, etc.)
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« Reply #78 on: May 16, 2006, 12:30:01 PM »

LOL!
Wow I didn't see that one coming !!!ÂÂ  Roll Eyes

So you say it coming and STILL decided to make the absurd argument...wow Roll Eyes

The fact of the matter is that you are neither an apostle nor one of their successors; comparing you to the apostles is like comparing apples and oranges. Suggestion, rather than the self-righteous approach of condemning your neighbour for being what you to be less than yourself, perhaps you will make greater progress gentle kindness and unconditional love. But, of course, that's assuming you're genuinely concerned and not just trying to piss them off (and hence why I take the approach I so often do here on oc.net Wink ).
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« Reply #79 on: May 17, 2006, 01:46:41 PM »

I see folks speaking about 'not judging' and I'm wondering if any believe in the exercise of 'justice' and from what 'foundation' is justice based? I'm not trying to rain on anyones gay parade but I think as Christians we are called to be 'righteous' as individuals as well as nations and exercise 'Just Law' as advocates of God not as individuals or mobs as was the case when Jesus stopped the mob from stoning but as just advocates administering Justice. Remember God's Justice is not ugly nor unjust and it is the 'foundation' which all justice systems should be based if we are truly Christian. Paul was very clear what the governments role was...

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. - Romans 13:1-4

Although we as individuals shouldn't have the right to 'take the law into our own hands' we should have Laws and Justice which reflect our relationship with God.

I know that is not popular in liberal christian circles but we are called to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect and part of that perfection is in the exercise of Justice.

I expect to get royally roasted for this post but I felt like offering this as my 2 cents.
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« Reply #80 on: May 17, 2006, 02:50:44 PM »

I expect to get royally roasted for this post but I felt like offering this as my 2 cents.
And here it comes...
Although we as individuals shouldn't have the right to 'take the law into our own hands' we should have Laws and Justice which reflect our relationship with God.
Be very careful with this statement.  By "our relationship with God" in this post, I assume you mean "an Orthodox Christian's relationship".  What happens when someone else says this and "our relationship" becomes a Wiccan's relationship, of a Hindu's, or a Buddhist's, or a Jewish, or a Moslem's, or an Evangelical Christian's, or a gay Christian's?  We live in a pluralistic society.  The laws of the country need to protect its citizens and guarantee that justice is available to all, not just white, heterosexual, christian males.
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« Reply #81 on: May 17, 2006, 02:56:49 PM »

I know that is not popular in liberal christian circles but we are called to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect and part of that perfection is in the exercise of Justice.
Speaking of perfect...
Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."  (Matt 19:21)
Better sell that computer right now!   Wink
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« Reply #82 on: May 17, 2006, 03:39:23 PM »

I see folks speaking about 'not judging' and I'm wondering if any believe in the exercise of 'justice' and from what 'foundation' is justice based? I'm not trying to rain on anyones gay parade but I think as Christians we are called to be 'righteous' as individuals as well as nations and exercise 'Just Law' as advocates of God not as individuals or mobs as was the case when Jesus stopped the mob from stoning but as just advocates administering Justice. Remember God's Justice is not ugly nor unjust and it is the 'foundation' which all justice systems should be based if we are truly Christian. Paul was very clear what the governments role was...

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. - Romans 13:1-4

Although we as individuals shouldn't have the right to 'take the law into our own hands' we should have Laws and Justice which reflect our relationship with God.

I know that is not popular in liberal christian circles but we are called to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect and part of that perfection is in the exercise of Justice.

I expect to get royally roasted for this post but I felt like offering this as my 2 cents.

  ÃƒÆ’‚ I believe the Fathers take the approach that in regards to sinful behavior we are to be very "conservative" in judging our own sins and faults yet very "liberal" in regards to others. It would be a sin itself to condone sin (e.g. homosexual behavior) yet we must never judge the person who is on that path (whether genetically or volitionally). We must make excuses for others along the lines of our Savior's prayer, "Father forgive them they know not what they do." St. Dorotheus of Gaza has a terrific chapter in his book on judging others that I profit from whenever I read it. It never ceases to urge me towards greater moderation in applying "justice" to others. And, objectively, yes, homosexuality IS a serious sin for whoever practices it- and yet, subjectively, I may be no better than a Pharisee when I point it out. My practice is that whenever someone asks me whether what they are doing is a sin I tell them honestly what Scripture and Tradition says while trying my best to do it in a spirit of gentleness and meekness as the Apostle St. paul taught us. Otherwise I try to say nothing other than prayers to God on their behalf while remembering that I am much worse in light of my knowledge than they are in their "ignorance". There are PLENTY of others who, in the name of justice, will condemn those who do wrong without me having to say anything............
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« Reply #83 on: May 17, 2006, 05:13:20 PM »

And here it comes...

Well I asked for it.  Cheesy

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Be very careful with this statement.ÂÂ  By "our relationship with God" in this post, I assume you mean "an Orthodox Christian's relationship".ÂÂ  What happens when someone else says this and "our relationship" becomes a Wiccan's relationship, of a Hindu's, or a Buddhist's, or a Jewish, or a Moslem's, or an Evangelical Christian's, or a gay Christian's?ÂÂ  We live in a pluralistic society.ÂÂ  The laws of the country need to protect its citizens and guarantee that justice is available to all, not just white, heterosexual, christian males.

Well we may live in a pluralistic society but as Christians we are Citizen's of Heaven first and frankly must recognize that fact and not allow our duty to the heavenly kingdom be overcome by the earthly one.

As a Christian I seek the only 'true' Justice which is God's. Where His Justice is similar with Wiccan's, Hindu's, Buddhist's, Jews and Muslims I rejoice. Where it is different I must take the side of God's Justice. I see no other way around that.

Liberity is fine but when it allows vice it is simply bondage to Satan smuggled in as virtue and I can't support that.
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« Reply #84 on: May 17, 2006, 05:19:49 PM »

  ÃƒÆ’‚ I believe the Fathers take the approach that in regards to sinful behavior we are to be very "conservative" in judging our own sins and faults yet very "liberal" in regards to others. It would be a sin itself to condone sin (e.g. homosexual behavior) yet we must never judge the person who is on that path (whether genetically or volitionally). We must make excuses for others along the lines of our Savior's prayer, "Father forgive them they know not what they do." St. Dorotheus of Gaza has a terrific chapter in his book on judging others that I profit from whenever I read it. It never ceases to urge me towards greater moderation in applying "justice" to others. And, objectively, yes, homosexuality IS a serious sin for whoever practices it- and yet, subjectively, I may be no better than a Pharisee when I point it out. My practice is that whenever someone asks me whether what they are doing is a sin I tell them honestly what Scripture and Tradition says while trying my best to do it in a spirit of gentleness and meekness as the Apostle St. paul taught us. Otherwise I try to say nothing other than prayers to God on their behalf while remembering that I am much worse in light of my knowledge than they are in their "ignorance". There are PLENTY of others who, in the name of justice, will condemn those who do wrong without me having to say anything............

I appreciate what you are saying here and in a sense I am in agreement but I get the impression you are confusing the advice of ascetic rule with our social responsibility to exercise justice for all. As a society God demands that we operate within the moral law which He has set and woe to those who stray from His law. As individuals yes we should be humble but humility has nothing to do with being idle in the face of perversion.
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« Reply #85 on: May 17, 2006, 06:54:58 PM »

As a society God demands that we operate within the moral law which He has set and woe to those who stray from His law.
Huh Do you really have a picture of God as a tyrant constantly looking over our shoulders at us and ready to pounce on us and fill us with "woe" the moment we set a foot wrong?
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« Reply #86 on: May 17, 2006, 07:40:00 PM »

Well we may live in a pluralistic society but as Christians we are Citizen's of Heaven first and frankly must recognize that fact and not allow our duty to the heavenly kingdom be overcome by the earthly one.
As a Christian I seek the only 'true' Justice which is God's. Where His Justice is similar with Wiccan's, Hindu's, Buddhist's, Jews and Muslims I rejoice. Where it is different I must take the side of God's Justice. I see no other way around that.
Liberity is fine but when it allows vice it is simply bondage to Satan smuggled in as virtue and I can't support that.
Let me make sure I understand this.   Undecided 
Because of your Christian belief, you feel that certain citizens (and taxpayers, I might add) are not entitled to the same rights, protection, and benefits that you as a citizen (and taxpayer) are entitled to.  You feel discrimination should be allowed because your beliefs have a priority over someone else's freedom (and by freedom, I mean in the context of the freedom granted to US citizens by the, or should I say our, Constitution).  Certainly I do not imply that where certain actions harm others (such as theft, murder, sexual molestation, etc) that citizens have a right to do so.  However, homosexuality, however repungent it may seem to you, certainly does not harm others.  People may imply so, such as it is destroying the American family, but that has yet to be proven.  The American family (divorce rate of around 45%) is doing a good job of destroying itself.
To continue, I believe, (and it is granted to us by the 1st Amendment) that we should voice our opinion, and so should others, whether we agree with them or not.  Our churches should teach morality and ethics, as long as they don't mention actual politicians or political parties by name (a violation of seperation of church and state and a reason to loose tax exempt status).
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« Reply #87 on: May 17, 2006, 08:36:47 PM »

I appreciate what you are saying here and in a sense I am in agreement but I get the impression you are confusing the advice of ascetic rule with our social responsibility to exercise justice for all. As a society God demands that we operate within the moral law which He has set and woe to those who stray from His law. As individuals yes we should be humble but humility has nothing to do with being idle in the face of perversion.

I agree and yes I was speaking as an individual Orthodox Christian. Corporately, I am a Christian Monarchist and believe that the stark separation of Church and State advocated by post-"Enlightenment" leaning people is an artificial construct that can never lead to a God-pleasing society. I confess that I have not found the balance between speaking the truth in love and humbly judghing myself alone. Especially in a society which ever increasingly seeks to define itself in terms of "tolerance". (Isn't it odd that modern "tolerance" means accepting whatever someone to the left of your views says and castigating whatever someone to the right says............) So, my post still stands in that it is my position as an individual Orthodox Christian. As a corporate Orthodox Christian I live in a Democracy and am bound to make my voice heard at the polls whenever the opportunity arises.................
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« Reply #88 on: May 17, 2006, 10:09:19 PM »

Separation of Church and State, gay rights laws, etc.  This sure sounds like an American political discussion.

The state already chooses when a marriage is valid under the law and when it is not.  As a response to this thread and another, this is not true marriage in the theological and spiritual (to be read as "real," "actual," "true," etc.) marriage.  A marriage outside God's Church is as much a marriage as a Gucci watch bought on the street is a Gucci. 

The state may do with these "relationships" what it chooses.  The state will pay for its choices (please note the above reference to the divorce rate in the U.S.). 

Two of my wife's aunts never married and lived together (non-sexually, for the perverts out there).  Why should they be forced to pay greater taxes and not be able to share their benefits?  Does what happens in the bedroom matter that much? 

And what about the lady I work with who is convinced her dog is equal to my children?  Why is she denied equal health care benefits for her beloved pet?  Who is anyone to judge the degree of affection one person (or beast) has for the other?  Why "discriminate" against "love"?

There are those who would say that a pet doesn't equal a child.  There are those who say friendship doesn't equal marriage.  There are those who say homosexual "marriage" isn't marriage.  All of these people must be terribly intolerant.
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« Reply #89 on: May 18, 2006, 12:07:23 AM »

Separation of Church and State, gay rights laws, etc.ÂÂ  This sure sounds like an American political discussion.

The state already chooses when a marriage is valid under the law and when it is not.ÂÂ  As a response to this thread and another, this is not true marriage in the theological and spiritual (to be read as "real," "actual," "true," etc.) marriage.ÂÂ  A marriage outside God's Church is as much a marriage as a Gucci watch bought on the street is a Gucci.ÂÂ  

The state may do with these "relationships" what it chooses.ÂÂ  The state will pay for its choices (please note the above reference to the divorce rate in the U.S.).ÂÂ  

Two of my wife's aunts never married and lived together (non-sexually, for the perverts out there).ÂÂ  Why should they be forced to pay greater taxes and not be able to share their benefits?ÂÂ  Does what happens in the bedroom matter that much?ÂÂ  

And what about the lady I work with who is convinced her dog is equal to my children?ÂÂ  Why is she denied equal health care benefits for her beloved pet?ÂÂ  Who is anyone to judge the degree of affection one person (or beast) has for the other?ÂÂ  Why "discriminate" against "love"?

There are those who would say that a pet doesn't equal a child.ÂÂ  There are those who say friendship doesn't equal marriage.ÂÂ  There are those who say homosexual "marriage" isn't marriage.ÂÂ  All of these people must be terribly intolerant.


Is our age so "touchy-feely" that common sense can't trump a tyrannical egalitarianism which equates wives with lovers/roomates or animals with people?............
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« Reply #90 on: May 18, 2006, 12:46:41 AM »

Two of my wife's aunts never married and lived together (non-sexually, for the perverts out there).ÂÂ  Why should they be forced to pay greater taxes and not be able to share their benefits?ÂÂ  Does what happens in the bedroom matter that much?ÂÂ  

A good argument for why the state should probably just step out of the marriage issue. I believe the state should take the technocratic approach, relegate marriage to the religious realm and simply not deal with it. Remove any tax bonuses for marriage (you can still keep bonuses for dependents, that's a different issue entirely), stop granting marriage licenses, and solve not only the present disputes about marriage, but all future disputes as well.

Quote
And what about the lady I work with who is convinced her dog is equal to my children?ÂÂ  Why is she denied equal health care benefits for her beloved pet?ÂÂ  Who is anyone to judge the degree of affection one person (or beast) has for the other?ÂÂ  Why "discriminate" against "love"?

First of all, most people in this country don't get government health care benifits anyway. Secondly, the solution to this difficulity is simple, her dog doesn't fall into the definition of 'citizen' according to the 14th Amendment, if you have a 'dependent' that isn't a legal citizen of the United States I don't believe you get benifits for them either.
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« Reply #91 on: May 18, 2006, 04:28:24 AM »

So you say it coming and STILL decided to make the absurd argument...
Let's see how 'absurd' it is.
The fact of the matter is that you are neither an apostle nor one of their successors; comparing you to the apostles is like comparing apples and oranges. Suggestion, rather than the self-righteous approach of condemning your neighbour for being what you to be less than yourself, perhaps you will make greater progress gentle kindness and unconditional love. But, of course, that's assuming you're genuinely concerned and not just trying to piss them off (and hence why I take the approach I so often do here on oc.net
I don't actually compare myself to the Apostles. They are a better example than you or I. I do believe we should use them as an example, which is what I said, which is also, what you ignore (hence I 'saw that coming' as I'm aware of you having been on this forum for a short while).

The Apostles behaviour was not of silence in the face of sin. You seem to think otherwise. The Bible and Holy Tradition show us what is sinful.

You seem to think that one should meekly hide in the corner when faced with this on some kind of false idea of humility.
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« Reply #92 on: May 18, 2006, 04:31:16 AM »

Huh Do you really have a picture of God as a tyrant constantly looking over our shoulders at us and ready to pounce on us and fill us with "woe" the moment we set a foot wrong?
It sounds a very Catholic idea; the God that needs to be 'satisfied' by all the injustices

We are called to 'love one another' and not helping someone when they sin is not love.

The danger here is to be open enough to understand one's own faults
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« Reply #93 on: May 18, 2006, 08:30:42 AM »

I agree and yes I was speaking as an individual Orthodox Christian. Corporately, I am a Christian Monarchist and believe that the stark separation of Church and State advocated by post-"Enlightenment" leaning people is an artificial construct that can never lead to a God-pleasing society. I confess that I have not found the balance between speaking the truth in love and humbly judghing myself alone. Especially in a society which ever increasingly seeks to define itself in terms of "tolerance". (Isn't it odd that modern "tolerance" means accepting whatever someone to the left of your views says and castigating whatever someone to the right says............) So, my post still stands in that it is my position as an individual Orthodox Christian. As a corporate Orthodox Christian I live in a Democracy and am bound to make my voice heard at the polls whenever the opportunity arises.................

Yep this is exactly how I feel. I can not support the legalization of 'sin' in a society in which I am active.
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« Reply #94 on: May 18, 2006, 08:41:16 AM »

You seem to think that one should meekly hide in the corner when faced with this on some kind of false idea of humility.

No, I simply believe that one should 'first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.'
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« Reply #95 on: May 18, 2006, 08:49:29 AM »

Huh Do you really have a picture of God as a tyrant constantly looking over our shoulders at us and ready to pounce on us and fill us with "woe" the moment we set a foot wrong?

Sin is it's own punishment so I don't think we can label Him a tyrant. He gave us His Commandments and we Know through Scripture the moral law in which we will be rewarded or condemned I honestly don't see how one can argue that He is a tyrant for giving us just guidance but knowing your liberal views I am sure we will not be in agreement with regards to the acceptance of sin as virtue.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! - Isaiah 5:20
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« Reply #96 on: May 18, 2006, 09:57:00 PM »

this is nonetheless an interesting topic to read about, but many of you are forgetting something significant- Homosexuality is not a lifestyle/choice, but rather a disorder. This, I feel does not need to be debated.

But allowing for homosexuals to marry eachother would be hypocritical. Since love for the same sex is considered a primary symptom for this disorder, allowing them to follow through on the symptom should mean that when a schizphrenic hallucinates or hears voices, he should be encouraged to ackknlowedge the voices as real. Or better yet, schizophrenics should be told to do what the voices tell them to.

Sorry if my comparison is a little complicated, but I'm sure the majority of you will understand. Smiley
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« Reply #97 on: May 19, 2006, 02:43:46 AM »

I agree with you Sloga.
Also I`ve wanted to say to personsally.....your avatar is totally AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #98 on: May 19, 2006, 07:30:01 AM »

No, I simply believe that one should 'first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.'

In that case even the Apostles (who were sinners) would have never said that anyone was sinful.

Perhaps the phrase you use is more to do with hypocrisy; calling other's sinners, and not noticing one's own sin. I have advocated the use of self-reflection here... recognising one's own sinful nature.

You may look at these posts and notice sins. I do to. For me I am sinful in pride and arrogance. Others it is ignorance and lack of introspection.

But we all criticise one another.
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« Reply #99 on: May 19, 2006, 07:32:05 AM »

this is nonetheless an interesting topic to read about, but many of you are forgetting something significant- Homosexuality is not a lifestyle/choice, but rather a disorder. This, I feel does not need to be debated.

But allowing for homosexuals to marry eachother would be hypocritical. Since love for the same sex is considered a primary symptom for this disorder, allowing them to follow through on the symptom should mean that when a schizphrenic hallucinates or hears voices, he should be encouraged to ackknlowedge the voices as real. Or better yet, schizophrenics should be told to do what the voices tell them to.

Sorry if my comparison is a little complicated, but I'm sure the majority of you will understand. Smiley

I think it is a matter of choice. I don't know if you distinguish 'choice' from 'lifestyle choice' but I would hate to rob homosexuals of any 'choice' here by making it as if they are uncontrolably compelled to act in the way that they do.
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« Reply #100 on: May 21, 2006, 10:12:33 AM »

I think it is a matter of choice. I don't know if you distinguish 'choice' from 'lifestyle choice' but I would hate to rob homosexuals of any 'choice' here by making it as if they are uncontrolably compelled to act in the way that they do.

They do not chose to be attracted to members of the same-sex....this is a position of the church that often embarasses me when I debate with non-believers. To say the majority of Homosexuals chose to be that way is a hardheaded church position. You cannot just take all the scientific facts discovered and throw them out the window. But to participate in sodomy is a choice, a choice that can be controlled.
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« Reply #101 on: May 21, 2006, 10:19:57 AM »

They do not chose to be attracted to members of the same-sex....this is a position of the church that often embarasses me when I debate with non-believers. To say the majority of Homosexuals chose to be that way is a hardheaded church position.
The Orthodox Church doesn't actually teach that, I don't think.
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« Reply #102 on: May 21, 2006, 03:34:09 PM »

The Orthodox Church doesn't actually teach that, I don't think.

True.  Lots of Church Fathers speak of a prolipsis (I think that's right), or a predisposition towards certain behaviors or passions.  Every homosexual I've ever known (and that's quite a few, seeing as how I've been in theater since I was a little boy) has told me that this was the only natural feeling they ever knew.  For my part, I believe them.  This, to me, means that they have a cross to bear, since this particular passion is much more persistent and much more prevelant in our society.  Hence we should react w/much more compassion and understanding than judgement and hardliner, "you-chose-to-be-this-way" stance.
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« Reply #103 on: May 22, 2006, 12:30:42 PM »

Pretty active topic.

The Southern Baptist Convention has made statements in the past concerning homosexuality:

We affirm God's plan for marriage and sexual intimacy — one man, and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a "valid alternative lifestyle." The Bible condemns it as sin. It is not, however, unforgivable sin. The same redemption available to all sinners is available to homosexuals. They, too, may become new creations in Christ.

I recently read SCOBA on this:

The Orthodox Church witnesses with the Holy Scriptures and Holy Tradition that outside the community of marriage the God-pleasing use of our sexuality is found in the free choice of abstinence. For some, this may be a temporary state awaiting the formation of the mystical union of marriage. For others, this may be the narrow and demanding way of life-long commitment to chastity.

It appears to me that they are saying the same thing. I don't see a lot of room for homosexuality 'as a lifestyle' in either of these statements.
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« Reply #104 on: May 22, 2006, 01:11:39 PM »

Actually it looks like in those quotes the Baptists are specifically talking about homosexuality, whereas SCOBA is just talking about sexuality.  If you want to use that SCOBA quote for a homosexuality discussion then basically SCOBA just said that gay sex is ok in a gay marriage.
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« Reply #105 on: May 22, 2006, 04:17:21 PM »

Actually it looks like in those quotes the Baptists are specifically talking about homosexuality, whereas SCOBA is just talking about sexuality.ÂÂ  If you want to use that SCOBA quote for a homosexuality discussion then basically SCOBA just said that gay sex is ok in a gay marriage.

Hi Zoe,

Can there be a 'mystical union of marriage' between a man and another man? I know I didn't quote the whole passage but it appeared to me that what SCOBA was stating was 'very' Biblical.

What is the definition of marriage in Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #106 on: May 22, 2006, 05:02:31 PM »

Hi Zoe,

Can there be a 'mystical union of marriage' between a man and another man? I know I didn't quote the whole passage but it appeared to me that what SCOBA was stating was 'very' Biblical.

What is the definition of marriage in Orthodoxy?

Except that the Orthodox Church does not define a gay union as 'marriage'.
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chrisb
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« Reply #107 on: May 22, 2006, 05:17:40 PM »

Except that the Orthodox Church does not define a gay union as 'marriage'.

I'm not understanding what you are affirming?
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Zoe
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« Reply #108 on: May 22, 2006, 05:46:23 PM »

Sounds like he's saying what you're saying   Smiley

My point was only that the SCOBA quote was talking about sexuality in general, and where it is legit, and where it is not.  It wasn't talking about homosexuality, though I see your point.
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« Reply #109 on: May 22, 2006, 06:06:36 PM »

I'm not understanding what you are affirming?

Well, I just went to an Orthodox Wedding, so I would hope this would be easy.  Just read the passage in Ephesians.  The 'Mystical Union' or the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony is where a man and a woman are joined together where two become "one flesh" as Christ is to the Church, etc.  Besides all the stuff about homosexual being sinful, a homosexual "union"  (or marriage if you must) is just undefined.  Wait, OK, I'LL define it for you - it is deviant, and thus "missing the mark" otherwise known as SIN.
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