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« on: February 08, 2006, 05:29:12 PM »

WHat would it take for the Ecumenical Patriarchate title to be moved from Constantinople to Moscow? It seems like the right move, especially because the state Constantinople is in. Is there some kind of canonical reason, or do the heirarchs in Constantinople just not want to give up the title?
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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2006, 05:42:43 PM »

The Title Ecumenical Patriarch would probably need to be moved by Synod; it is connected with the idea that the Patriarch holding the title is "first among equals," and in this case, according to the Ecumenical Synods, it is Constantinople, especially now that Rome is out of Communion with the Orthodox Church.

It is unlikely that this shift would occur any time in the near future, even if there was a convening of such a synod; I don't think it is as much of an issue amongst the hierarchs as it can be in places like this.

In fact, I would probably aruge that the hierarchs in Constantinople couldn't move the title even if they wanted to, since the decision to make Constantinople first among the bishops stems from a decision of an Ecumenical Synod, only a Synod of the whole church could reverse that (this is a fundamental principle in the Canonical Tradition of our Church - only a body of equal or "higher" authority can overturn decisions and canons; there is no body higher than an Ecumenical Synod save the totality of the Church Tradition and Christ Himself).  In addition, I think that Turkey's entrance into the EU will change the nature/role of the Patriarchate, and will increase the size of his immediate jurisdiction with the addition of crypto-christians who have been existing in the city ever since the population expulsion.
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2006, 06:26:33 PM »

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In addition, I think that Turkey's entrance into the EU will change the nature/role of the Patriarchate, and will increase the size of his immediate jurisdiction with the addition of crypto-christians who have been existing in the city ever since the population expulsion.

Even more intersting I think will be the role of the Church of Greece when/if the rights of religious and ethnic minorities are restored in Turkey.  While politics would probably preclude this from ever happening I think it would be nice to see Greece restored to the Patriarchate. 
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2006, 06:32:33 PM »

Cleveland,

What do you think about the idea that it could be moved considering that, while an Ecumenical Council was what originally outlined the administrative set-up, even that Council made clear that it was not because of some immutable truth or apostolic tradition, but because of politics and culture:

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Everywhere following the decrees of the Holy Fathers, and aware of the recently recognized Canon of the one hundred and fifty most God-beloved Bishops who convened during the reign of Theodosius the Great of pious memory, who became emperor in the imperial city of Constantinople otherwise known as New Rome; we too decree and vote the same things in regard to the privileges and priorities of the most holy Church of that same Constantinople and New Rome. And this is in keeping with the fact that the Fathers naturally enough granted the priorities to the throne of Old Rome on account of her being the imperial capital. And motivated by the same object and aim the one hundred and fifty most God-beloved Bishops have accorded the like priorities to the most holy throne of New Rome, with good reason deeming that the city which is the seat of an empire, and of a senate, and is equal to old imperial Rome in respect of other privileges and priorities, should be magnified also as she is in respect of ecclesiastical affairs, as coming next after her, or as being second to her. - 4th Ecumenical Council, Canon 28

So, while the argument could be made that another Ecumenical Council is needed before anything can be done, couldn't it also be argued that a pan-Orthodox Council (including Constantinople of course) could make a change while saying that they were not trumping the Ecumenical Canon or superceding it, but rather staying faithful to it by locating the Ecumencial Patriarchate wherever it can best prosper and administrate from?

Personally, I don't think the current EP administration would move even if it's entire existence depended on it moving, nor do I think it would be allowed to move even if it wanted to. I'm just curious what you think about the point from a theoretical p.o.v.
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2006, 06:41:15 PM »

Why would moving the title to Moscow be the right move? Are we certain exactly that the communist years are over, and that the Moscow Patriarchate will continue to be in such a powerful position as it seems to be today even in the after Putin era?

Let's just wait a few more years till Moscow is stabilized completely, and then, if Constantinople is still in such an ugly position, then we can talk about it.
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2006, 06:57:15 PM »

Cleveland,

What do you think about the idea that it could be moved considering that, while an Ecumenical Council was what originally outlined the administrative set-up, even that Council made clear that it was not because of some immutable truth or apostolic tradition, but because of politics and culture:

So, while the argument could be made that another Ecumenical Council is needed before anything can be done, couldn't it also be argued that a pan-Orthodox Council (including Constantinople of course) could make a change while saying that they were not trumping the Ecumenical Canon or superceding it, but rather staying faithful to it by locating the Ecumencial Patriarchate wherever it can best prosper and administrate from?

Personally, I don't think the current EP administration would move even if it's entire existence depended on it moving, nor do I think it would be allowed to move even if it wanted to. I'm just curious what you think about the point from a theoretical p.o.v.

There is precedent for moving a see while the see maintains all its ancient rights and diocese; the Church of Cyprus was forced to move into the territory of the EP and it was allowed to remain autocephalous, and even took jurisdiction of the immediate area that it occupied.  Once they were permitted to return to Cyprus, they did, and things went back to the way they were before.

The EP was given this option at the time of the population exchange.  If I remember correctly, the Turks at first wanted him out (so they could also have an excuse to eject the Sultan), but there was still a sizeable flock in the City (even after the exchange), and the Turks told him he could take nothing - none of the relics, holy items, records, nada.  All things taken into account, he decided to stay, and then when he got an inkling to leave, the Turks by that point wanted him to stay, and they restricted his movements and placed citizenship requirements.

SO theoretically the Patriarchate of Constantinople itself could be moved, and then restored to the City once it is able to be; the downside in that is that the pressures put on the Turks by the EP are all that keep the Churches, people, and Holy Sites safe, otherwise all would be confiscated, torn down, or "museum-ized."
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2006, 07:19:39 PM »

WHat would it take for the Ecumenical Patriarchate title to be moved from Constantinople to Moscow? It seems like the right move, especially because the state Constantinople is in. Is there some kind of canonical reason, or do the heirarchs in Constantinople just not want to give up the title?

The moving of the Capital of the Roman Empire to Moscow by an Emperor who was coronated by the Patriarch of Constantinople, followed by an Oecumenical Synod summoned by said Roman Emperor and accepted by the entire Church to elevate Moscow to that dignity.
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2006, 09:35:24 PM »

Well, since there IS no Roman Empire NOR an Emperor, would that then mean that the Patriarch of Constantinople really isn't Ecumenical?
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2006, 09:39:17 PM »

This form - that GiC is referring to - may not be the only one; but it is the only one with precedent.  There has only been one capital change, and only one shift in authority to hear appeals and such.  It leaves anyone who wishes to do such a thing again in a difficult position.

I think the model above also highlights one thing that might be critical: the coronated Emperor was considered the vice-ruler of Christ on Earth; his position was actually considered part of the clergy (he could thus enter through the Royal Gates and such).
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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2006, 09:40:45 PM »

Well, since there IS no Roman Empire NOR an Emperor, would that then mean that the Patriarch of Constantinople really isn't Ecumenical?   

The Emperor didn't make the Ecumenical Patriarch; the Church did.  But the Emperor was an integral part of the Church for 1100 years.  It was the decisions of the Synods and the departure of Rome that made Constantinople Ecumenical (actually, the title Ecumenical was ascribed to Constantinople by the Eastern sees well before the schism).
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« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2006, 10:01:19 PM »

This form - that GiC is referring to - may not be the only one; but it is the only one with precedent.  There has only been one capital change, and only one shift in authority to hear appeals and such.  It leaves anyone who wishes to do such a thing again in a difficult position.

Precedent...there is precedent to moving the SEAT of the See though (Antioch to Damscus).  I'm interested to see speculation on that.
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« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2006, 10:24:31 PM »

Yes, absolutely.  If the Patriarch and the Turks could agree on it, then it would be possible for him to move.  But I think if the Turks are serious about entering the EU, and if the EU is dumb enough to let them in, then the EP is going to be one of the critical points of discussion.
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2006, 12:42:53 AM »

What is the EU?
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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2006, 12:48:07 AM »

What is the EU?

European Union.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_union
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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2006, 05:06:11 AM »

If the EP moves, that would be to Agion Oros, not Moscow...
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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2006, 05:58:26 AM »

The Emperor didn't make the Ecumenical Patriarch; the Church did.  But the Emperor was an integral part of the Church for 1100 years.  It was the decisions of the Synods and the departure of Rome that made Constantinople Ecumenical (actually, the title Ecumenical was ascribed to Constantinople by the Eastern sees well before the schism).

Actually, whilst the honour given to Constantinople was granted by an Ecumenical Council, I'm pretty sure that the title (which seems to be what this thread is meant to be about) was granted to John the Faster by the Emperor. As such, I fail to see why another Ecumenical Synod would be needed to revoke or reapply said title. I can see an argument that you would need a Roman Emperor to do so, but not a synod. In any case, as far as I know the title has absolutely no bearing on anything ecclesiological. After all, the Patriarch of Constantinople was called the Ecumenical Patriarch (and for comparison the head of the library in Constantinople was the Ecumenical Librarian) long before the Schism when the honour of being first among equals was still that of the Pope of Rome. I agree that an Ecumenical Council would be needed to pass this honour from Constantinople to Moscow but can see absolutely no reason why the title should follow the honour.

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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2006, 07:44:52 AM »

See, I don't know about the EP moving to the Holy Mountain; he is a city bishop with a lay flock to tend; now I could see him moving to Thessaloniki, which is in his jurisdiction, and setting up shop there...
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2006, 07:52:23 AM »

Actually, whilst the honour given to Constantinople was granted by an Ecumenical Council, I'm pretty sure that the title (which seems to be what this thread is meant to be about) was granted to John the Faster by the Emperor. As such, I fail to see why another Ecumenical Synod would be needed to revoke or reapply said title. I can see an argument that you would need a Roman Emperor to do so, but not a synod. In any case, as far as I know the title has absolutely no bearing on anything ecclesiological. After all, the Patriarch of Constantinople was called the Ecumenical Patriarch (and for comparison the head of the library in Constantinople was the Ecumenical Librarian) long before the Schism when the honour of being first among equals was still that of the Pope of Rome. I agree that an Ecumenical Council would be needed to pass this honour from Constantinople to Moscow but can see absolutely no reason why the title should follow the honour.

James

So then why would the title need to pass if the honour cannot?  I see no point in passing the title to Moscow if the Patriarch there will not be the First amongst equals.  Yes, the title was given before the schism, but the honour of being first among equals was actually largely in debate between Old Rome and new Rome before the schism; the ability to hear appeal was granted to Constantinople pre-schism (I don't remember if it was at Chalcedon or at Constantinople II) which was a major step; At this point, all Rome had was recitation first on the diptychs and whatever powers they granted themselves in their minds - which were not assented to by any of the Patriarchates in the East.  So the claim to be Ecumenical Patriarch was more than useless honorarium; it was a claim that he was indeed the de facto first, even if his name was read second.
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2006, 07:59:16 AM »

So then why would the title need to pass if the honour cannot?  I see no point in passing the title to Moscow if the Patriarch there will not be the First amongst equals.  Yes, the title was given before the schism, but the honour of being first among equals was actually largely in debate between Old Rome and new Rome before the schism; the ability to hear appeal was granted to Constantinople pre-schism (I don't remember if it was at Chalcedon or at Constantinople II) which was a major step; At this point, all Rome had was recitation first on the diptychs and whatever powers they granted themselves in their minds - which were not assented to by any of the Patriarchates in the East.  So the claim to be Ecumenical Patriarch was more than useless honorarium; it was a claim that he was indeed the de facto first, even if his name was read second.

Well, my reading of history is a little different to yours, but that's fine. My point, however, was precisely that I don't see any reason why the title of Ecumenical Patriarch ought ever to be passed on to anyone else, even if some other Patriarch became first among equals. Leave the title with Constantinople regardless is what I would say. Seeing as there's no Empire any more the title is fairly meaningless in any case.

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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2006, 08:10:04 AM »

Well, my reading of history is a little different to yours, but that's fine. My point, however, was precisely that I don't see any reason why the title of Ecumenical Patriarch ought ever to be passed on to anyone else, even if some other Patriarch became first among equals. Leave the title with Constantinople regardless is what I would say. Seeing as there's no Empire any more the title is fairly meaningless in any case.

James

Yes, you make a good point that without the backing of the Emperor the title means less (or nothing); that is where I see the possibility of Turkey entering the EU changing that dynamic, having a free-again Patriarch and such.  I do agree with your post 100%.
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2006, 08:12:11 AM »

I am confused- is the title First Among Equals separate form the Ecumenical title? If so, that's what I meant moving to Moscow if it needed to happen
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« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2006, 08:16:31 AM »

Ahhh.... yes, First Among Equals is a title seperate from "Ecumenical," although the latter is nowadays implying the former.  First among equals is a declaration that one's see is the first in line amongst the Autocephalous sees as defined in Synod; the Ecumenical Synods set the order of the Ancient Sees at Rome, COnstantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem.  Later Endemousa Synods added Moscow after Jerusalem.  In order for this order to change (i.e. in order for Jerusalem or Moscow or someone else to become 1st among equals) a Synod of the Whole Church would need to be called, since it was an Ecumenical Synod that made the decision in the first place.
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« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2006, 10:31:10 AM »

The Ecumenical Patriarch cannot move at this time, or maybe ever for that matter. He is an important presence to the dwindling Orthodox flock in Turkey, and their Shepard.

Now maybe in the furture if the number of Greeks in Turkey fall to even lower numbers, the possibility of the EP moving does grow, but right now I do not believe the moving of the Patriarchate is a reasonable idea.

However, if changing the "First among equals" title to another Patriarch is what we are talking about. Than I would agree that the Patriarch of Moscow might be the one who deserves such a position in the Church.
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« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2006, 12:41:49 PM »

I might agree that at one time Moscow could try to lay claim, but now I don't think so; First Among Equals was a title bestowed to the Capital City (Rome), and then transferred to New Rome when Old Rome left (although most of the rights had already been given New Rome by then).  This was largely (mostly maybe) due to the fact that it was the capital of the Orthodox Empire.  Modern Russia can only lay claim to being the most populous Orthodox nation, but it is far from being an Orthodox empire.  And while the reasons for moving the First Among Equals priviledge now no longer apply to Constatninople (it is no longer the seat of Orthodox Government in the World), it neither applies to any other city. 

I think, too, the relative youth and nature of the government there now does not lend itself to being seen as a bedrock and fortress that will protect the Church. 

All this discussion is moot, of course, if there is no pan-Orthodox Synod convened to make the change... and the moving of First AMong Equals responsibilities and rights is not at the top of the To-Do lists of the Orthodox leaders in the world, not even Moscow.
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« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2006, 05:05:38 PM »

See, I don't know about the EP moving to the Holy Mountain; he is a city bishop with a lay flock to tend; now I could see him moving to Thessaloniki, which is in his jurisdiction, and setting up shop there...

What the theologians in Greece are discussing at the moment is either his moving to Thessaloniki or his moving to Agion Oros. Eithercase, the autocephaly of the Greek Church is to be abolished, as soon as the Turkish yoke is no longer a threat.
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« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2006, 05:13:51 PM »

What the theologians in Greece are discussing at the moment is either his moving to Thessaloniki or his moving to Agion Oros. Eithercase, the autocephaly of the Greek Church is to be abolished, as soon as the Turkish yoke is no longer a threat. 

This makes sense; he would move, probably to Thessaloniki, remain the Patriarch in exile, the autocephaly of Greece would end and the Synod would go back under the EP, then when (if) the Turks open up to religious freedom he could/would go back. 
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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2006, 10:58:25 PM »

I might agree that at one time Moscow could try to lay claim, but now I don't think so; First Among Equals was a title bestowed to the Capital City (Rome), and then transferred to New Rome when Old Rome left (although most of the rights had already been given New Rome by then).  This was largely (mostly maybe) due to the fact that it was the capital of the Orthodox Empire.  Modern Russia can only lay claim to being the most populous Orthodox nation, but it is far from being an Orthodox empire.  And while the reasons for moving the First Among Equals priviledge now no longer apply to Constatninople (it is no longer the seat of Orthodox Government in the World), it neither applies to any other city.

I think that is exactly right: it all hinges on there being an Orthodox Empire. Since there is no such thing today, a more pre-Nicene model of government should be the norm.
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2006, 02:13:48 PM »

Quote
This makes sense; he would move, probably to Thessaloniki, remain the Patriarch in exile, the autocephaly of Greece would end and the Synod would go back under the EP, then when (if) the Turks open up to religious freedom he could/would go back.

Ο ΚΑΙΡΟC ΓΑΡ ΕΓΓΥC+  Wink
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« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2006, 03:15:24 PM »

Ο ΚΑΙΡΟC ΓΑΡ ΕΓΓΥC+  Wink

θα δούμε!  (we'll see!)
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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2006, 03:18:12 PM »

There's a reason I made this thread in English...   Undecided
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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2006, 05:07:37 PM »

Oh - Ntinos said the Time is close, to which I responded "we'll see" - sorry for the mix-up
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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2006, 05:09:55 PM »

It wasn't a mix-up, it was just in a different language.  Smiley

I was trying to learn Greek... but I've forgotten most of the alphabet already... pretty sad...  Sad
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« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2006, 07:18:23 PM »

babelfish.altavista.com - it'll translate from many languages to english - to help out with the stray greek phrase that may come along (but don't use it to try and translate all caps - it won't do it, you'll have to put it in lower-case)
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« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2006, 07:42:58 PM »

babelfish.altavista.com - it'll translate from many languages to english - to help out with the stray greek phrase that may come along (but don't use it to try and translate all caps - it won't do it, you'll have to put it in lower-case)

Do I have to type it in using Greek letters, or use English letters?

Thanks.  Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2006, 08:00:53 PM »

If you want it to go from Greek to English, then you need Greek letters... if you have Win2K or WinXP, it's easy...
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« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2006, 08:03:05 PM »

If you want it to go from Greek to English, then you need Greek letters... if you have Win2K or WinXP, it's easy...

I have XP, but the Greek letters I saw seem to be modern, not Koine?  Huh
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« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2006, 08:45:35 PM »

Yea, the translator won't translate if you use the full accets that are found in koine... write it like a modern word and see if a translation pops up.
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« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2006, 08:50:29 PM »

I don't know what the difference are... maybe it's best I just don't worry about it?  Embarrassed
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