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Author Topic: To eat meat or not to eat meat!  (Read 2326 times) Average Rating: 0
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QuoVadis
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« on: January 25, 2006, 02:16:43 AM »

As I was just reading through Genesis, I noticed how God gave Adam and Eve basically fruit and veges etc. to eat for their sustenance.ÂÂ  How come then after Noah and the flood etc., God tells Noah and his family that every thing moving and is alive will now be food for them, as it was with the green plants.ÂÂ  Why the sudden change, do you think?

Personally, even though I eat meat, I don't particularly enjoy it so would be glad to stick with the greens ... nevertheless, I wonder what the Church says about this and why God changed the order of things after the flood.

Does anyone know?
Thanks.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2006, 02:17:17 AM by QuoVadis » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2006, 02:23:15 AM »

Because meat tastes good, and God is kind.

[I had a raw steak for dinner this evening, with some pepper and a bit of clarified butter. Good stuff.]
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2006, 10:26:22 AM »

Personally, even though I eat meat, I don't particularly enjoy it so would be glad to stick with the greens ... nevertheless, I wonder what the Church says about this and why God changed the order of things after the flood.

'If anyone criticize adversely a person eating meat with reverence and faith, as though he had no hope of partaking, let him be anathema.'

--Second Canon of the Synod of Gangra
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2006, 11:44:55 AM »

Uh, that appears to be in reference to eating meat and receiving communion. As if meat eaters could not receive (esp since in some traditions one fasts from meat the day before receiving communion.)

If people are eating meat with reverence and faith, more power to them. If people are mindlessly consuming much more than they need for love of the taste, (and IMO, without regard to the manner in which their meat food was raised and slaughtered, since it was almost certainly without the reverence and caring due to God's creation), then maybe there is something to discuss, according to that canon.

I'm a vegetarian. There are lots of vegetarians or vegans in the Church. Monastics are by and large vegetarian, for that follows "the angelic way." If you want to go vegetarian, within Orthodoxy, it's not that hard to do, since we're fasting 180 days of the year anyway.  I'm not against eating meat (though it makes me physically retch if I try to), but I assert that the Orthodox respect for all food and nourishment (that stems from the Eucharist and fasting practices) could mean that we should take a harder look at how food animals are treated and try to do better by them.
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2006, 12:01:08 PM »

PS. This site is FABULOUS and the woman is an Orthodox Christian.
http://veganlunchbox.blogspot.com/

I would also reccomend looking for the cookbook "When you fast" which is a cookbook for the Lenten season full of receipes that do and do not use dairy, eggs, and oil, so you can really do quite well by going vegetarian or vegan for the whole year.
http://www.svots.edu/Press-Releases/2005-0415-lenten-cookbook/

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« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2006, 01:58:13 PM »

Uh, that appears to be in reference to eating meat and receiving communion. As if meat eaters could not receive (esp since in some traditions one fasts from meat the day before receiving communion.)

Actually it's not a reference to partaking of communion, but rather of partaking of the Kingdom of God, i.e. Salvation. The Synod was summoned in response to the Eustathian heretics who elevated ascetic practice to the level of being required for our Salvation and in doing so issued 20 Anathemas ranging from abhorance at the consumption of meat to criticizing of common dress to fasting on Sundays. The point of the canon is to condemn those who either abhor meat or find some moral wrong in the consumption of meat, not to condemn those who avoid meat on account of ascetic practice (but it does condemn those who avoid meat out of ascetic practice and insist others do so, as though it were necessary for their Salvation). Other relevant canons on this subject include:

'If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, or anyone at all on the sacerdotal list, abstains from marriage, or meat, or wine, not as a matter of mortification, but out of an abhorrence thereof, forgetting that all things are exceedingly good, and that God made man male and female, and blasphemously misrepresenting God’s work of creation, either let him mend his ways or let him be deposed from office and expelled from the Church. Let a layman be treated similarly.' -- Apostles 51

'If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, on the days of feasts will not partake of meat and wine, because he loathes these things, and not on account of asceticism, let him be deposed from office, on the ground that he has his own conscience seared and has become a cause of scandal to many.' -- Apostles 53

'As for those presbyters or deacons who are in the clergy and who abstain from meat, it has seemed right for them to touch and taste the meat and then, if they so wish, to refrain from eating it; but if they are unwilling to eat even vegetables that have been cooked with meat, and refuse to submit to the Canon, let them be dismissed from the orders.' -- Ancyra 14
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2006, 03:27:15 PM »

I, too, am a vegetarian, though not a vegan.  But at the same time, I think it is quite clear that the Orthodox Church does not regard eating meat as sinful.  Bishop +Kallistos makes this very point in The Orthodox Church when he discusses the fasting rules.  Neither do I, IMHO, regard it as inherently evil.  I simply do not wish to participate. 

I echo Choirfiend's words about it not being particularly hard to be vegetarian and Orthodox, at least at home, given that for half the year we are supposed to eat a near-vegan diet anyway.

So go ahead and eat your meat, fish, and fowl.  Just don't look at me funny because I won't eat anything that originally had a face.  Wink
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2006, 03:33:03 PM »

I, too, am a vegetarian, though not a vegan.

Is there a difference?
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2006, 04:07:21 PM »

Vegetarians do not eat meat. Anything that is part of a body and required killing something in order to eat it.

Vegans do not eat any products that come from animals whatsoever, including dairy, eggs, and even honey.
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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2006, 04:09:44 PM »

Actually it's not a reference to partaking of communion, but rather of partaking of the Kingdom of God, i.e. Salvation.

Aha, do you think it might be appropriate to provide context right along with whatever text you're quoting there?
Still sounds consistent with a preference for vegetarianism. And is consistent with eating meat. So no surprise there.
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2006, 04:17:30 PM »

Aha, do you think it might be appropriate to provide context right along with whatever text you're quoting there?
Still sounds consistent with a preference for vegetarianism. And is consistent with eating meat. So no surprise there.

I did provide a context:

'If anyone criticize adversely a person eating meat with reverence and faith, as though he had no hope of partaking, let him be anathema.'

--Second Canon of the Synod of Gangra
« Last Edit: January 25, 2006, 04:17:54 PM by greekischristian » Logged

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QuoVadis
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2006, 05:40:30 PM »

Thank you all for your interesting posts, but can we get back to the actual topic here?  I wasn't saying eating meat was a good or bad thing - it's your own personal preference.  But as I said, I was reading through the Bible and wondered why God changed the order of things from before the flood to after the flood.  Does anyone know, and what does the Church say about this instance?
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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2006, 05:44:09 PM »

Thank you all for your interesting posts, but can we get back to the actual topic here?  I wasn't saying eating meat was a good or bad thing - it's your own personal preference.  But as I said, I was reading through the Bible and wondered why God changed the order of things from before the flood to after the flood.  Does anyone know, and what does the Church say about this instance?

I'm just limbing it here, but it may have something to with all the animals after the flood were handpicked to survive, and thereofre may have been more pure than before the flood.  Huh

Does that sound correct?
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2006, 05:49:02 PM »

Could also be that after the flood, there probably weren't many crops laying around waiting to be eaten, so for a while there would have been not much to eat besides the animals and whatever wild plants had survived the flood.
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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2006, 05:50:55 PM »

[I had a raw steak for dinner this evening, with some pepper and a bit of clarified butter. Good stuff.]

When you guys say "raw", do you mean "rare" as in lightly cooked, or completely raw as in uncooked?
If the latter: ERRRUGH!!!!
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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2006, 06:04:21 PM »

Quote
When you guys say "raw", do you mean "rare" as in lightly cooked, or completely raw as in uncooked?
If the latter: ERRRUGH!!!!

Can't speak for others, but in my case, it was indeed raw. Cooked meat is good, but raw meat is divine. The problem with restaurant steaks is that they always insist on cooking the blasted things.
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« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2006, 06:05:48 PM »

Can't speak for others, but in my case, it was indeed raw. Cooked meat is good, but raw meat is divine. The problem with restaurant steaks is that they always insist on cooking the blasted things.

Wouldn't they get a lawsuit if they didn't cook them?
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« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2006, 06:07:50 PM »

Quote
Wouldn't they get a lawsuit if they didn't cook them?

Possible litigation should never stand in the way of a good meal.

And kibbee is hard to find at restaurants, too. Stupid health inspectors.

I will, though, put in a good word for Outback Steakhouse. I once ordered a rack of lamb there, and asked them to cook it as rare as they could, and they brought it out barely room temperature. It was excellent.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2006, 06:09:22 PM by yBeayf » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2006, 07:57:36 PM »

Skipping quickly past recent references to masticating uncooked animal flesh  Tongue to get back to the question about the change in dietary rules after the flood, I believe the original "vegetarian" rules are given in the context of life in the Garden, when everyone and everything lived in harmony.  Then after the flood, I believe God says to Noah something like, "Now animals will fear you."  It's a changed world.
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« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2006, 07:58:03 PM »

Do you enjoy authentic Japanese food, by chance?

And here I was thinking I was strange for liking a little sushi and cookie dough!
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« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2006, 10:04:49 PM »

Wouldn't they get a lawsuit if they didn't cook them?

Not necessarily, ever have Steak Tartare? A good Steak Tartare truly is divine.

Can't speak for others, but in my case, it was indeed raw. Cooked meat is good, but raw meat is divine. The problem with restaurant steaks is that they always insist on cooking the blasted things.

As frightening as it is (the concept of us agreeing) I'm going to have to agree with you...meat that can be served raw is best served raw, or at the very least, cooked as little as possible.
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« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2006, 10:28:45 PM »

QuoVadis

It is an interesting question, though I cannot remember having come across any type of answer. If I had to speculate though I'd probably say something like what BJohnD said.
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« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2006, 01:04:18 PM »

[bible]Genesis 9:1-4[/bible]
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