OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 01, 2014, 10:40:46 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: What are souls in hell like?  (Read 2695 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Armando
Dead among the living
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 187

I gave up dreaming a long time ago...


« on: January 16, 2006, 12:11:15 PM »

I have been told souls in hell are nasty. But what about people that spent their lives
being nice and understanding and would never do anything close to what a deamon would
do, kill themselves and go to hell?
Logged

Ten years have passed, the girl I loved
is now a woman, but I am still a child...
-Sad-ending fairytale, Miltos Paschalidis
Bogoliubtsy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,268



« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2006, 01:03:45 PM »

I'd imagine the absolute hurt and pain that person would cause others is a great sin. If you've never lost someone close to you, even to natural causes, you can't understand that pain. I'd think that the pain a suicide causes family and friends would be incredibly intensified because the family/friends would always be haunted by the fact that the death was preventable.

So, on one level, there is GREAT sin in the devastation inflicted upon others as the result of suicide.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 01:03:57 PM by Bogoliubtsy » Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara
alice
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 56


« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2006, 07:45:43 PM »

Taking one's own life is not as innocent as one might think. When we take our life, a life granted by God alone, we are committing murder. It does not matter if it is a murder of another or ourselves, it is still murder.

Also, when we presume to take our own life, it is also blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, the only unforgivable sin according to the Bible. When we have no faith, when we have no hope, when we have utter despair that nothing can get better, we are denying God's grace, God's mercy, God's providence, and God's love. We are basically saying that there is no God.

That is why the Holy Church does not usually allow a religious burial for suicide, but only in cases where the person was extremely out of their mind with no reasoning or understanding of anything. Suicide is a grave and mortal sin, and a sin which the evil one delights in...for there is no greater joy for him than to take souls into eternity with him. If one is having such thoughts, they should purge their lives of any occultic practices they may have dabbled in, pray to God for help, seek their priest and go to confession. There is no sacrament, the Holy Elders tell us, as feared and hated by the demons as the sacrament of confession. It is THAT powerful.

In Christ, our Lord, our Saviour, our Hope and our Peace,
Alice

Logged
JoeS
(aka StMarkEofE)
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,122


Global Warming Enthusiast.


« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2006, 09:15:00 PM »

Taking one's own life is not as innocent as one might think. When we take our life, a life granted by God alone, we are committing murder. It does not matter if it is a murder of another or ourselves, it is still murder.

Also, when we presume to take our own life, it is also blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, the only unforgivable sin according to the Bible. When we have no faith, when we have no hope, when we have utter despair that nothing can get better, we are denying God's grace, God's mercy, God's providence, and God's love. We are basically saying that there is no God.

That is why the Holy Church does not usually allow a religious burial for suicide, but only in cases where the person was extremely out of their mind with no reasoning or understanding of anything. Suicide is a grave and mortal sin, and a sin which the evil one delights in...for there is no greater joy for him than to take souls into eternity with him. If one is having such thoughts, they should purge their lives of any occultic practices they may have dabbled in, pray to God for help, seek their priest and go to confession. There is no sacrament, the Holy Elders tell us, as feared and hated by the demons as the sacrament of confession. It is THAT powerful.

In Christ, our Lord, our Saviour, our Hope and our Peace,
Alice



These past 3 posts, are these Orthodox?  The reason I ask is because Orthodoxy believes that when we fall asleep in the Lord that we get a foretaste of both heaven and hell.  This does not mean that we go to hell or heaven right away, for that is reserved for the final judgement.  The only spirits in hell right now are the original angels including Lucifer.  If I am in error what is the official Eastern Orthodox teaching of hell?  And why would God pull someone out of heaven just to stand judgement AGAIN then be put back into heaven if this person is deserving of heaven?

JoeS
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,973


black metal cat


« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2006, 11:31:56 PM »

Technically it is the Orthodox position that people are in hades when they die (either in a bad way, or in "Abraham's Bosom"), and are not in hell (which isn't created until the end of time) or heaven, but I figured that such a doctrinal position wasn't really important in comparison to what Armando here was asking about.

We call killing the taking of a life, but under peculiar circumstances (like in war). But we have a seperate word for taking of an innocent life, murder.ÂÂ  Regarding suicide and hell, suicide is murder because it is taking an inncent person's life, so it is very serious. We have no more right to kill ourselves than we have a right to kill a stranger on the street.

Still, it is only for God to judge the eternal fate of someone, but we pray for people no matter how they die, and so obviously we must also pray for someone who has committed suicide as well.

For someone considering suicide, I would ask to consider one thing. Most religious people who contemplate suicide have the idea that "God wouldn't punish me for this". Maybe so. However, what are you going to do if you get to judgment day and God says, "Why did you trust that I wouldn't send you to hell, but you refused to trust that I would lead you into a better life on earth? Seems sort of selfish to me." What could we say in response to that?

But maybe it's not selfish--I do not want to judge anyone here. I am just throwing things out to consider. Don't just consider how bad things are, or how we don't think that God will do this or that. Let's consider what we can do to improve the situation, and what God will do if we give him the chance. And for those who have already left, let's consider ourselves unworthy to judge them, because we are, and simply pray for them, and for their family and friends.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 11:34:01 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
JoeS
(aka StMarkEofE)
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,122


Global Warming Enthusiast.


« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2006, 11:53:41 PM »

Technically it is the Orthodox position that people are in hades when they die (either in a bad way, or in "Abraham's Bosom"), and are not in hell (which isn't created until the end of time) or heaven, but I figured that such a doctrinal position wasn't really important in comparison to what Armando here was asking about.

We call killing the taking of a life, but under peculiar circumstances (like in war). But we have a seperate word for taking of an innocent life, murder.ÂÂ  Regarding suicide and hell, suicide is murder because it is taking an inncent person's life, so it is very serious. We have no more right to kill ourselves than we have a right to kill a stranger on the street.

Still, it is only for God to judge the eternal fate of someone, but we pray for people no matter how they die, and so obviously we must also pray for someone who has committed suicide as well.

For someone considering suicide, I would ask to consider one thing. Most religious people who contemplate suicide have the idea that "God wouldn't punish me for this". Maybe so. However, what are you going to do if you get to judgment day and God says, "Why did you trust that I wouldn't send you to hell, but you refused to trust that I would lead you into a better life on earth? Seems sort of selfish to me." What could we say in response to that?

But maybe it's not selfish--I do not want to judge anyone here. I am just throwing things out to consider. Don't just consider how bad things are, or how we don't think that God will do this or that. Let's consider what we can do to improve the situation, and what God will do if we give him the chance. And for those who have already left, let's consider ourselves unworthy to judge them, because we are, and simply pray for them, and for their family and friends.

Suicide is the murder of ones' self.  Understandably any act of this nature would have to take into consideration the mental state of the individual at the time of the occurance.
Logged
alice
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 56


« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2006, 09:33:15 AM »

Dear JoeS,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Please don't worry because I don't nit pick on word semantics. I am about as Orthodox as one can be, having been born in it, gone to ORTHODOX parochial school with weekly religion classes taught by an ORTHODOX priest, studied it,  translated and edited books about saints, have been chosen by my priest to teach catechesis as a young adult, have a spiritual father that is a MT. ATHOS monk/elder, andÂÂ  in general, haveÂÂ  lived and breathed Orthodoxy, my cradle religion,ÂÂ  for forty some years. I hope that these credentials help put your mind at ease.

Ofcourse you are correct in that souls that have not been fully damned have a chance to be redeemed  before the final judgement by the efficacy of our prayers for the dead. The SCOBA churches generally consider these states 'foretastes or forecourts' but the monastics have different ideas about demonic toll houses...In any case, whether one is SCOBA Orthodox, ROCOR, Monastic, or even Roman Catholic, we all believe in the efficacy of prayer for the dead because that seems to be the only one thing we are all really sure about.

THESE word semantics, these theologoumena. are at the moment quite idle talk however, since there is a precious soul that is very troubled and the sidetracking of this conversation will only further confuse him into doing something drastic which he is threatening. So for the sake of LIFE, can we please end it here. This was the only reason I joined this forum. Please pray for our beloved teenaged friend. Thank you.

Sincerely in Christ our Saviour,
Alice
« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 09:35:40 AM by alice » Logged
Armando
Dead among the living
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 187

I gave up dreaming a long time ago...


« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2006, 10:37:38 AM »

Yes but could souls from hell (a relative that loved u and u loved)that killed himself
try and harm you just like Hitler or any other deamon would.
Logged

Ten years have passed, the girl I loved
is now a woman, but I am still a child...
-Sad-ending fairytale, Miltos Paschalidis
alice
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 56


« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2006, 11:02:58 AM »

Paidi mou Armando,

NO demon can harm you if you reject them and embrace our Saviour, Jesus Christ.
NO demon can harm you if you partake of the most important of all sacraments, confession, and then receive the Body and Blood of our Lord in Theia Koinonia.
No soul that has died, no matter where they are, can harm you, for they are not demons.
Pray for their soul. If they have taken their life they are in torment in the after life, not peace, and they need the quenching feeling of your prayers..this has been taught to us by the greatest Orthodox desert Fathers.
The efficacy of prayer for the dead is so great that Ivan the Terrible, the horrible Tsar of Russian history, not only killed his enemies, but killed all their relatives and friends so that there would be no one to serve panakhida/mnymosina for their souls!
Besides helping our loved ones that have passed on in the continued journey of Theosis, we also help our own souls when we pray for others...we take ourselves out of the realm of our self centered thoughts and ego, (something which we all struggle with), and we do something from the heart, for another.  Smiley

I Panayia mazi sou,
In Christ,
Alice
Logged
johnnicholas
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6



« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2006, 03:11:16 PM »

"""For someone considering suicide, I would ask to consider one thing. Most religious people who contemplate suicide have the idea that "God wouldn't punish me for this". Maybe so. However, what are you going to do if you get to judgment day and God says, "Why did you trust that I wouldn't send you to hell, but you refused to trust that I would lead you into a better life on earth? Seems sort of selfish to me." What could we say in response to that?
But maybe it's not selfish--I do not want to judge anyone here. I am just throwing things out to consider. Don't just consider how bad things are, or how we don't think that God will do this or that. Let's consider what we can do to improve the situation, and what God will do if we give him the chance. And for those who have already left, let's consider ourselves unworthy to judge them, because we are, and simply pray for them, and for their family and friends. """

I do not hear the voice of experience here. Anyone who has any experience with extreme depression, either in themselves, or in someone close to them, which leads to suicidal ideation would be able to comprehend the extreme depths of dispair that such a condition can drive even the most faithful person.

I will not presume to hazard an opinion on the matter, but trust only in the Lord's wisdom and love.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,973


black metal cat


« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2006, 03:54:15 PM »

Quote
I do not hear the voice of experience here

What you hear is the voice of someone who has been formally diagnosed with a half dozen depressive disorders and anxieties, and very seriously contemplated suicide (not as a "cry for help," but as a real "solution") for a period of about 5 years. I also have social anxiety disorder and I'm pretty sure bipolar disorder to this day. I had years of struggling with behavioral problems in grade school, when I would get pulled from class to go see a counseller on a weekly basis, I dealt with tourettes syndrome, phyiscal abuse, and other childhood issues; then when I got older I had repeated periods of unemployment (work 3 months, unemployed 9 months, repeat cycle) and feeling useless for years on end. I would have killed myself had it not been for my fearing hell. I had no reason to live, none at all. I have never "felt" love, ever, from anyone. Not to this day--not in the mushy, warm way that other people speak of it. I'm a cold person, whether made that way through nature or life experience.

And now, while I am probably not "healthy" by most people's standards (nor will I ever be), I am not suicidal. But I know what it is like to be that way, to be caught in a cycle of depression for years on end. At one point in my life I didn't go out of the house for something like 6 months. I was living with my Grand Mother who was my legal guardian, and she got all the food and whatnot, and I just literally did the same thing every day for 6 months straight: get up, watch TV, go on computer, go to bed. I am not unfamiliar with the type of depression that makes you just not want to live, and also that tricks you into thinking that it's no use trying. But I escaped, and I refuse to play the game that other people play, where they cuddle and emotionally shower love on someone depressed. Such things are what a suicidal person wants, but they are not what they need, because tomorrow the other person will not be there to cuddle and shower, and the depressed person will resume their cyclical life.

I know because I've been there. I know because people did it for me, and to me, for years.

It was not until I grew up and had to deal with things myself, and look for answers and stability myself, and look for reasons to live for myself, that true answers came to me. But this is hard for someone caught in the cycle to take in and apply to their lives.They hear it, and maybe believe it, and maybe think that they will apply it; but it is extremely difficult. Thus the reason that I speak of just living, of focusing on the positive, of doing what you can. Because as long as you focus on the negative, on what you don't have, then you will never escape the cycle, because no matter how much good happens, you will always find the hint of a cloud in the distance in the 99% clear, picture-perfect blue sky. Again, I've been there. For example, I don't know how many jobs I've quit which would have been very good to keep, simply because I didn't feel like I could go, I didn't feel alive enough, I felt worthless, I wanted to die. And if I hadn't believed in hell, I would have killed myself. To this day I know the "plan" I had down to the last little detail, and I had enough precautions thrown in to make sure that if one part of the attempt didn't end things, the other part would.

PS. I'm not sure which angers me more, that I let my pride coax me into coming to my own defense, though paradoxically making that defense by airing my own dirty laundry, or that you made the comment in the first place.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2006, 03:57:58 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,377


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2006, 03:16:38 PM »

What I can tell you guys for sure is that modern theologians (17th century - today) have tackled this problem theologically.  They have (very confusingly at times) found that when the soul is confronted with the "foretaste" as someone mentioned, they also have a foretaste of what their suicide has done to their soul and their condition as a person.  But even in that moment, and in the moment of Final Judgement God gives us the chance to repent.  I'll find the reference so that you guys can read it yourselves.  I may have misinterpreted the text though.  God is all-loving.  Not "kind of" loving. 
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,973


black metal cat


« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2006, 07:04:46 PM »

Double post, moderator may delete if they want..
« Last Edit: January 20, 2006, 07:06:10 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,973


black metal cat


« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2006, 07:05:20 PM »

Not wanting to digress from the thread, but I did want to apologize for my last post, regarding which I had regrets already later that day.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2006, 07:07:01 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2006, 11:17:17 PM »

Justin,
I think your post was a timely reminder to us all of the nature of internet forums, and how we can sometimes presume to know what someone is thinking and who they are from just a few lines that they type.
I myself pay no attention to posters who personally attack or belittle others, and they usually end up on my "ignore list" in my preferences. Sadly, this list is growing.
George
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,377


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2006, 11:11:01 PM »

Unfortunately ignoring problems is never going to solve them.  I think the least we can do is reach out our hands and help a person.  If they don't want to be helped, that's their issue.  The least we can do is try though.  Plus, on top of that, we ARE our brother's keepers.  Ignoring our brother, no matter how big of a dooffus (sp?) he is, is not the best way. 

I think this also holds true for issues of suicide.  We should reach out to people, not ignore them.  No matter how little sense they make.  When it comes to theology, I think God thinks the same way.  He always gives his love to us, and his salvation (through Jesus Christ).  Its up to us to accept that love and forgiveness.  If we can't forgive ourselves at what point will me accept God's love and forgiveness?  But even then, God will always extend his infinate mercy and love to us. 
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.07 seconds with 42 queries.