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Author Topic: What was your gospel lectionary reading for today?  (Read 2795 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 30, 2011, 06:10:18 PM »

I'm confused.  According to the lectionary, the Gospel for the 20h Sunday after Pentecost is Luke 7:11-17, the raising of the dead son at Nain.  But today, the Gospel that was read and preached on was from Luke 16, the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, which according to my calendar is not read until the twenty-fourth Sunday after Pentecost.  Just curious, and I know there are differences in the Slavic Lectionary and the Greek lectionary but they look harmonious on this point, but what Gospel did you hear this morning sunday, October 30?  Thanks.
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« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2011, 06:17:39 PM »

Parable of the Sower, the same as last week (last week I was in the NC, this - in the OC).
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« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2011, 06:18:48 PM »

Lazarus

Today I attended liturgy in a Russian Exarchate parish (New Calendar).
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« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2011, 06:27:49 PM »

According to the GOA's 's calendar http://www.goarch.org/chapel/lectionary_view?type=G&code=196&event=911&date=10/30/2011 it is Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31).
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« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2011, 06:30:43 PM »

It was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man for us, too.
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« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2011, 06:33:34 PM »

Nicholas and I were discussing this last week.

Lazarus and the Rich Man for me last week. OCA.

The Gerasene Demoniac for him last week. Whatever the initialism for the Antiochian Orthodox Church of North America.

And flipped-flopped this week for us.

Explain?
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« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2011, 06:39:23 PM »

Nicholas and I were discussing this last week.

Lazarus and the Rich Man for me last week. OCA.

The Gerasene Demoniac for him last week. Whatever the initialism for the Antiochian Orthodox Church of North America.

And flipped-flopped this week for us.

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« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2011, 07:38:04 PM »

Lazarus here today, just for the tally.

And we had the demoniac reading last week.

GOA of course.
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« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2011, 08:36:02 PM »

Parable of the Sower, the same as last week (last week I was in the NC, this - in the OC).
I've heard that one twice so far this month. Tongue Two weeks ago at an OCA parish (NS) and today at my parish (Bulgarian- OS).

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« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2011, 09:56:18 PM »

I'm confused.  According to the lectionary, the Gospel for the 20h Sunday after Pentecost is Luke 7:11-17, the raising of the dead son at Nain.  But today, the Gospel that was read and preached on was from Luke 16, the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, which according to my calendar is not read until the twenty-fourth Sunday after Pentecost.  Just curious, and I know there are differences in the Slavic Lectionary and the Greek lectionary but they look harmonious on this point, but what Gospel did you hear this morning sunday, October 30?  Thanks.

Lazarus and the Rich Man for us, also.

The bishop was present and our priest was too afraid to have the gospel read in English. Sigh.
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« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2011, 09:57:08 PM »

Does he usually read them in both languages or just English?
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« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2011, 10:00:49 PM »

Does he usually read them in both languages or just English?

Both languages, along with the creed and Lord's prayer.

For some reason, Father also insists on doing half the litany of completion in English. I don't see the point.
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« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2011, 10:04:03 PM »

Does he usually read them in both languages or just English?

Both languages, along with the creed and Lord's prayer.

For some reason, Father also insists on doing half the litany of completion in English. I don't see the point.

It's like the worst of both worlds.

Sorry man. I know this weighs on you.
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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2011, 10:05:52 PM »

Mine does the same on all of it. I suspect it's to placate the Greek elders (and have heard so from others), although they are slowly being replaced by non-Greek converts.

I do like the Greek in the service, though, but it can get kind of messy for newcomers and it changes randomly based on his feeling at the moment.
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« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2011, 10:06:54 PM »

Does he usually read them in both languages or just English?

Both languages, along with the creed and Lord's prayer.

For some reason, Father also insists on doing half the litany of completion in English. I don't see the point.

It's like the worst of both worlds.

Sorry man. I know this weighs on you.

Thanks, dude, all sympathy welcome.

You should hear the way our chanters butcher the word "incarnate" in the creed. They all need lessons in elocution.
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« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2011, 10:17:15 PM »

Mine does the same on all of it. I suspect it's to placate the Greek elders (and have heard so from others), although they are slowly being replaced by non-Greek converts.

I do like the Greek in the service, though, but it can get kind of messy for newcomers and it changes randomly based on his feeling at the moment.

I also prefer "theion, ayion, achranton, athanaton, epouranion kai zopion, phrikton, &c." to "divine, holy, pure, immortal, heavenly, life-giving and tremendous, &c.", I just think that (where it is used) English should be integrated into the Liturgy in a sensible manner, not randomly.

For example, if the priest or deacon makes any exclamation in English, the response from the people should always be in English. So, "most especially for our most-holy, &c." should never elicit the response "axion estin os alithos, &c.". Likewise, when the Lord's prayer is said in Greek, the priest should not conclude the prayer with "for yours is the Kingdom, &c." in English.

Also, I don't see the logic in praying from "yper tis anothen eirinis, &c." to "yper pleonton, odhiporounton, &c." in Greek and then suddenly swapping to English at "for our delivery from all affliction, &c." and then swapping back to Greek at "tis panayias, achrantou, &c.".

I mean, what is the point of these practices? Is even a single person's attendance being guaranteed by this tokenistic sprinkling of English? Why bother at all?

And with that, I will refrain from hijacking this thread further ...
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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2011, 10:23:33 PM »

Mine does the same on all of it. I suspect it's to placate the Greek elders (and have heard so from others), although they are slowly being replaced by non-Greek converts.

I do like the Greek in the service, though, but it can get kind of messy for newcomers and it changes randomly based on his feeling at the moment.
For example, if the priest or deacon makes any exclamation in English, the response from the people should always be in English. So, "most especially for our most-holy, &c." should never elicit the response "axion estin os alithos, &c.". Likewise, when the Lord's prayer is said in Greek, the priest should not conclude the prayer with "for yours is the Kingdom, &c." in English.

Oh wow, I misread you. The service changes randomly, but the prayer and response is in the same language for each part. For example, one might be "paraskhu Kyrie" (pardon my butchering of Greek transliteration, please) and the next part will be "Grant this, O Lord." But the prayer would be in the corresponding language.

That is insane.
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« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2011, 10:38:11 PM »

Mine does the same on all of it. I suspect it's to placate the Greek elders (and have heard so from others), although they are slowly being replaced by non-Greek converts.

I do like the Greek in the service, though, but it can get kind of messy for newcomers and it changes randomly based on his feeling at the moment.

I also prefer "theion, ayion, achranton, athanaton, epouranion kai zopion, phrikton, &c." to "divine, holy, pure, immortal, heavenly, life-giving and tremendous, &c.", I just think that (where it is used) English should be integrated into the Liturgy in a sensible manner, not randomly.

For example, if the priest or deacon makes any exclamation in English, the response from the people should always be in English. So, "most especially for our most-holy, &c." should never elicit the response "axion estin os alithos, &c.". Likewise, when the Lord's prayer is said in Greek, the priest should not conclude the prayer with "for yours is the Kingdom, &c." in English.

Also, I don't see the logic in praying from "yper tis anothen eirinis, &c." to "yper pleonton, odhiporounton, &c." in Greek and then suddenly swapping to English at "for our delivery from all affliction, &c." and then swapping back to Greek at "tis panayias, achrantou, &c.".

I mean, what is the point of these practices? Is even a single person's attendance being guaranteed by this tokenistic sprinkling of English? Why bother at all?

And with that, I will refrain from hijacking this thread further ...

For the OP- GOA and it was as the other GOA posters have said Demoniac last week, Lazarus this week. My calendar from the OCA parish I attended when I lived in VA has the reverse order.

As to Akimori's woes- the parish I'm currently attending has the most sensible approach I've seen (aside from completely English Wink ) so far: Most of the priest's parts are recited first in one language and then repeated in another, with Greek following English in all cases where the choir sings a hymn, as our choir is quite dedicated to the hymns in Greek (and given the dismal translation of the Liturgy we use I can't say I blame them- it drives our chanter, a Greek native, crazy and he's constantly editing the service books on the fly with either proper translations or by crossing out entire sections with the word "WRONG!" above or in the margin). Most of the "secret prayers" are said in English. The Litanies are the only down side as I have yet to see any logic behind the switches from English to Greek in mid litany, but the "Kyrie" is always in the same language as the preceding prayer of the Litany. To make the whole set up truly fascinating our priest is indeed a Greek immigrant- from Panama!

The only minor quibbles I have is with the previously mentioned choir- a) I miss hearing/singing Emperor Justinian's Troparia, the Cherubic Hymn, and the Hosanna in English; and b) while I love choirs in Slavic tradition parishes and tones they grate on my nerves when singing Byzantine tones.  At least there's no organ.
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« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2011, 10:40:46 PM »

No one's been able to answer the question, yet as to why the lectionary appoints for the 20th Sunday the story of the rising of the dead son at Nain but instead we are hearing about Lazarus.
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« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2011, 10:43:39 PM »

No one's been able to answer the question, yet as to why the lectionary appoints for the 20th Sunday the story of the rising of the dead son at Nain but instead we are hearing about Lazarus.

We heard that passage a month or so ago.

I am curious. Once folks who know are done with football or sleeping one off, they will tell us.

The fact we and the Antiochians were flipped-flopped was weird.

I have no idea about these things.
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« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2011, 10:52:27 PM »

No one's been able to answer the question, yet as to why the lectionary appoints for the 20th Sunday the story of the rising of the dead son at Nain but instead we are hearing about Lazarus.

We heard that passage a month or so ago.

I am curious. Once folks who know are done with football or sleeping one off, they will tell us.

The fact we and the Antiochians were flipped-flopped was weird.

I have no idea about these things.

It's above my pay-grade, but I'll hazard a guess that it has to do with the Lucan Jump- after September 19 the daily readings diverge from the post-Pentecost lectionary.
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« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2011, 12:27:42 AM »

The Slavic tradition and the Greek/Phanariot-influenced lectionaries are different. Hence Antioch lines up with the Greeks, OCA with the Slavs.

At least that is my understanding.
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« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2011, 12:29:44 AM »

No one's been able to answer the question, yet as to why the lectionary appoints for the 20th Sunday the story of the rising of the dead son at Nain but instead we are hearing about Lazarus.

I think we will have to wait on someone from the OCA to explain since it seems like they are the only ones who have the change.
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« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2011, 12:38:49 AM »

For whatever it's worth I have a book that lines this stuff up for every year (the Bible and Holy Fathers for Orthodox), and for like a month now it has been at odds with my St. Herman's calendar lectionary.

So I just go with with book and hope for the best.
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« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2011, 01:27:39 AM »

Could this perhaps also have to do with whether the church is old calendar or not?  Doesn't the Lucan "jump" happen correspond to the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross on Sept. 14 (27)?
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« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2011, 08:02:02 AM »

I'm confused.  According to the lectionary, the Gospel for the 20h Sunday after Pentecost is Luke 7:11-17, the raising of the dead son at Nain.  But today, the Gospel that was read and preached on was from Luke 16, the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, which according to my calendar is not read until the twenty-fourth Sunday after Pentecost.  Just curious, and I know there are differences in the Slavic Lectionary and the Greek lectionary but they look harmonious on this point, but what Gospel did you hear this morning sunday, October 30?  Thanks.

Yesterday, I read Luke 7:11-17.

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« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2011, 10:55:38 AM »

No one's been able to answer the question, yet as to why the lectionary appoints for the 20th Sunday the story of the rising of the dead son at Nain but instead we are hearing about Lazarus.

We heard that passage a month or so ago.

I am curious. Once folks who know are done with football or sleeping one off, they will tell us.

The fact we and the Antiochians were flipped-flopped was weird.

I have no idea about these things.

It's above my pay-grade, but I'll hazard a guess that it has to do with the Lucan Jump- after September 19 the daily readings diverge from the post-Pentecost lectionary.

Someone just mentioned the "Lucan jump" to me last night. What is that exactly? Could you explain?
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« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2011, 01:17:51 PM »

Yesterday, October 30, 2011, my church read Luke 8:26-39 (6th Sunday of Luke). We are new calendar.   By the way, the Epistle Reading was Galatians 1:11-19 (20th Sunday after Pentecost).

If we ignored the "Lukan Jump", we would have read (3rd Sunday of Luke) Luke 7:11-16.

If we were on the Old calendar, the "Lukan Jump" might be a week or two different. That may be why you heard (5th Sunday of Luke) Luke 16:19-31.

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Someone just mentioned the "Lucan jump" to me last night. What is that exactly? Could you explain?

The interruption of the reading of the Gospel of Matthew after the Elevation of the Holy Cross is known as the "Lukan Jump". This is the middle of September near the Conception of the Forerunner John, the start of the ecclesiastical Year in late Antiquity. This usually happens before the 18th Sunday after Pentecost.
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« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2011, 01:34:58 PM »

Yesterday, October 30, 2011, my church read Luke 8:26-39 (6th Sunday of Luke). We are new calendar.   By the way, the Epistle Reading was Galatians 1:11-19 (20th Sunday after Pentecost).

If we ignored the "Lukan Jump", we would have read (3rd Sunday of Luke) Luke 7:11-16.

If we were on the Old calendar, the "Lukan Jump" might be a week or two different. That may be why you heard (5th Sunday of Luke) Luke 16:19-31.

Quote
Someone just mentioned the "Lucan jump" to me last night. What is that exactly? Could you explain?

The interruption of the reading of the Gospel of Matthew after the Elevation of the Holy Cross is known as the "Lukan Jump". This is the middle of September near the Conception of the Forerunner John, the start of the ecclesiastical Year in late Antiquity. This usually happens before the 18th Sunday after Pentecost.


thanks
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« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2011, 02:15:51 PM »

Also, if you find it disturbing that the lectionary gets shuffled up here, wait till the Nativity and Theophany feasts,  these two interruptions to the readings are sometimes used to hide the fact, that after that, the readings are calculated backwards (in some churches) from the beginning of Great Lent. 

I find it nice that from the start of lent, 'till the middle of September, all of Orthodoxy has the same readings. (Except for fixed feast days)
But then it looks like every church  is on its own.
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« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2011, 02:39:03 PM »

For whatever it's worth I have a book that lines this stuff up for every year (the Bible and Holy Fathers for Orthodox), and for like a month now it has been at odds with my St. Herman's calendar lectionary.

So I just go with with book and hope for the best.
I hear that the years don't line up either.  Grin
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« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2011, 02:56:03 PM »

The Slavic tradition and the Greek/Phanariot-influenced lectionaries are different. Hence Antioch lines up with the Greeks, OCA with the Slavs.

At least that is my understanding.

It seems that the Bulgarians, although Slavic speaking, follow the Greek lectionary. I compared the sites of the Bulgarian Patriarchate and GOA and the readings are the same:

October 2 - Luke 6:31-36
October 9 - Luke 7:11-16
October 16 - Luke 8:5-15
October 23 - Luke 8:26-39
October 30 - Luke 16:19-31

http://bg-patriarshia.bg/calendar.php?month=9
http://www.goarch.org/resources/monthly_readings
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« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2011, 11:26:07 PM »

As to Akimori's woes- the parish I'm currently attending has the most sensible approach I've seen (aside from completely English Wink ) so far: Most of the priest's parts are recited first in one language and then repeated in another, with Greek following English in all cases where the choir sings a hymn, as our choir is quite dedicated to the hymns in Greek (and given the dismal translation of the Liturgy we use I can't say I blame them- it drives our chanter, a Greek native, crazy and he's constantly editing the service books on the fly with either proper translations or by crossing out entire sections with the word "WRONG!" above or in the margin). Most of the "secret prayers" are said in English. The Litanies are the only down side as I have yet to see any logic behind the switches from English to Greek in mid litany, but the "Kyrie" is always in the same language as the preceding prayer of the Litany. To make the whole set up truly fascinating our priest is indeed a Greek immigrant- from Panama!

Doesn't that add substantially to the length of the Liturgy?

... (not that I mind, but I can imagine a lot of Greeks would) ...
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« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2011, 11:13:20 AM »

As to Akimori's woes- the parish I'm currently attending has the most sensible approach I've seen (aside from completely English Wink ) so far: Most of the priest's parts are recited first in one language and then repeated in another, with Greek following English in all cases where the choir sings a hymn, as our choir is quite dedicated to the hymns in Greek (and given the dismal translation of the Liturgy we use I can't say I blame them- it drives our chanter, a Greek native, crazy and he's constantly editing the service books on the fly with either proper translations or by crossing out entire sections with the word "WRONG!" above or in the margin). Most of the "secret prayers" are said in English. The Litanies are the only down side as I have yet to see any logic behind the switches from English to Greek in mid litany, but the "Kyrie" is always in the same language as the preceding prayer of the Litany. To make the whole set up truly fascinating our priest is indeed a Greek immigrant- from Panama!

Doesn't that add substantially to the length of the Liturgy?

... (not that I mind, but I can imagine a lot of Greeks would) ...

Not as much as you would think. I'd say about 5 minutes. Not that many would mind- half the parish doesn't show up til about the Our Father Cheesy
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« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2011, 01:03:19 PM »

As to Akimori's woes- the parish I'm currently attending has the most sensible approach I've seen (aside from completely English Wink ) so far: Most of the priest's parts are recited first in one language and then repeated in another, with Greek following English in all cases where the choir sings a hymn, as our choir is quite dedicated to the hymns in Greek (and given the dismal translation of the Liturgy we use I can't say I blame them- it drives our chanter, a Greek native, crazy and he's constantly editing the service books on the fly with either proper translations or by crossing out entire sections with the word "WRONG!" above or in the margin). Most of the "secret prayers" are said in English. The Litanies are the only down side as I have yet to see any logic behind the switches from English to Greek in mid litany, but the "Kyrie" is always in the same language as the preceding prayer of the Litany. To make the whole set up truly fascinating our priest is indeed a Greek immigrant- from Panama!

Doesn't that add substantially to the length of the Liturgy?

... (not that I mind, but I can imagine a lot of Greeks would) ...

Not as much as you would think. I'd say about 5 minutes. Not that many would mind- half the parish doesn't show up til about the Our Father Cheesy
Hey, do you go to my church?

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