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Author Topic: A question about Jesus Christ our Saviour and Judah  (Read 975 times) Average Rating: 0
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andrewlya
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« on: April 07, 2012, 10:21:50 AM »


Hi all dear brothers and sister,

Ive just joined this forum as I am a strong Christian,I try to be. I also have questions and it would be great to discuss it with my fellow Orthodox Christians.

I know that I can learn more by asking questions and discussing them. I read the Bible when I was a child.Now I'm older and sometimes questions spring to my mind and know that I can find my answers here.

As far as I understand the New Testament Jesus came to teach us and HAD to die on the Cross,Jesus sacrificed himself for us, and be Resurrected in order to fulfill the plan of God's Salvation of human kind for our sins.

My question is does it mean that Judah had a "special mission" to "assist" the God's plan by betraying Jesus and leading him to be crucified,and,as a result, having Resurrected and saving us from our sins?

 Had Judah not betrayed Jesus we would not have been saved now? So,Judas HAD to do it,is this right? Does it mean Judah had an agreement with Jesus to do it?

And what would have happened if Judah had not betrayed Jesus?

Thank you,I'm looking forward to your answers.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 10:25:18 AM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2012, 11:26:49 AM »

What you are mentioning here is very much identical to the gospel of Judas, a non-canonical gnostic gospel which date to the second century ( though the earliest written example is from the year 280). This gospel is not recognized by the orthodox church. I am no expert but I see it like this: All humans have free will and Judas sadly used this free will to betray our Lord. I think it is important to remember that the pharisees had already planned to kill Jesus before Judas' betrayal so it would likely have happened sooner or later.

An orthodox answer to the gospel of Judas
  http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith9538
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« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2012, 11:45:50 AM »


Yes, thank you. But why did someone have to kill Jesus/why did Jesus have to die on the Cross and resurrected in order to save us?
Why is it someone had to commit the greatest ever sin (by betraying & by killing Jesus) in order to fulfill the plan of Salvation?
Could there have been any other way of completing the plan of Salvation without killing Jesus?

« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 11:49:40 AM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2012, 11:57:24 AM »


Hi all dear brothers and sister,

Ive just joined this forum as I am a strong Christian,I try to be. I also have questions and it would be great to discuss it with my fellow Orthodox Christians.

I know that I can learn more by asking questions and discussing them. I read the Bible when I was a child.Now I'm older and sometimes questions spring to my mind and know that I can find my answers here.

As far as I understand the New Testament Jesus came to teach us and HAD to die on the Cross,Jesus sacrificed himself for us, and be Resurrected in order to fulfill the plan of God's Salvation of human kind for our sins.

My question is does it mean that Judah had a "special mission" to "assist" the God's plan by betraying Jesus and leading him to be crucified,and,as a result, having Resurrected and saving us from our sins?

 Had Judah not betrayed Jesus we would not have been saved now? So,Judas HAD to do it,is this right? Does it mean Judah had an agreement with Jesus to do it?

And what would have happened if Judah had not betrayed Jesus?

Thank you,I'm looking forward to your answers.

Judas did not HAVE to do it, but, as the Gospel attests, Christ knew he would do it before hand, and numbered him among the disciples anyways.  No agreement, just God using the free choices of man to His own purpose.
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2012, 12:02:03 PM »


Yes, thank you. But why did someone have to kill Jesus/why did Jesus have to die on the Cross and resurrected in order to save us?
Why is it someone had to commit the greatest ever sin (by betraying & by killing Jesus) in order to fulfill the plan of Salvation?
Could there have been any other way of completing the plan of Salvation without killing Jesus?


Jesus came in order to save. So his intent from the beginning was to be killed. You are missing a very vital point in all this.  That nothing has killed god per say. He resurrected. Remember?
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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2012, 01:20:20 PM »

If he did only God knows.

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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2012, 01:32:22 PM »


Hi all dear brothers and sister,

Ive just joined this forum as I am a strong Christian,I try to be. I also have questions and it would be great to discuss it with my fellow Orthodox Christians.

I know that I can learn more by asking questions and discussing them. I read the Bible when I was a child.Now I'm older and sometimes questions spring to my mind and know that I can find my answers here.

As far as I understand the New Testament Jesus came to teach us and HAD to die on the Cross,Jesus sacrificed himself for us, and be Resurrected in order to fulfill the plan of God's Salvation of human kind for our sins.

My question is does it mean that Judah had a "special mission" to "assist" the God's plan by betraying Jesus and leading him to be crucified,and,as a result, having Resurrected and saving us from our sins?

 Had Judah not betrayed Jesus we would not have been saved now? So,Judas HAD to do it,is this right? Does it mean Judah had an agreement with Jesus to do it?

And what would have happened if Judah had not betrayed Jesus?

Thank you,I'm looking forward to your answers.

Judas did not HAVE to do it, but, as the Gospel attests, Christ knew he would do it before hand, and numbered him among the disciples anyways.  No agreement, just God using the free choices of man to His own purpose.

Yes, I understand.
However, why could the Salvation plan be only fulfilled through a human sin (killing of Jesus)?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 01:35:16 PM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2012, 01:34:50 PM »


Yes, thank you. But why did someone have to kill Jesus/why did Jesus have to die on the Cross and resurrected in order to save us?
Why is it someone had to commit the greatest ever sin (by betraying & by killing Jesus) in order to fulfill the plan of Salvation?
Could there have been any other way of completing the plan of Salvation without killing Jesus?


Jesus came in order to save. So his intent from the beginning was to be killed. You are missing a very vital point in all this.  That nothing has killed god per say. He resurrected. Remember?

Yes,sure I remember it. Jesus was resurrected on the 3rd day in accordance with the Scriptures.

But why did Jesus have to die and suffer to save us?
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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2012, 10:36:09 AM »

Thank you for your answers and hope you will all have a good Pasha.

What I gather from what has been said is that it was not God's plan to send His only Son to be tortured and killed.Jesus was sent down so He could save us.
The reason He was killed is because everyone had/has a free will and freedom of action.The Jews did not,for some reason, accept Jesus as the Messiah even though it was foretold in their own book of Torah.

It was not God's plan of Salvation to send His only Son to be tortured and killed,but the God knew that by sending His Son to save the world it was inevitable that He would be killed by men in that society.It was inevitable that this was going to happen as it is like throwing a person into a cage with wild lions to try to tame them, the consequences of which are perfectly clear.Similar situation was with Jesus, God knew that when His Son will preach and show the way people should live will not be accepted by some minority of cruel people,who were so corrupted and stubborn that they could not see the true light.

But God had to send Jesus so that by having been with us in a human form,He showed us how to pray,how to live,how to behave, how to think and how to love our Father as well as each other.By having resurrected from the dead Jesus broke the gates of Hell and showed that even if you are a sinner you are not hopeless as long as you repent and turn into a good God loving person you will be in Heaven with our God the Father and our Lord Jesus.

Jesus Christ was truly the Messiah,the Son of the loving God, who came not to judge,but to save the mankind,but himself was  judged by the men themselves He was saving.

Now the only thing we can do is repent our sins and try to live as righteous as possible the way our Father wants us to live in the name of Jesus,Ameen.
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« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2012, 04:29:05 PM »

It is my understanding that Christ HAD TO die the way that he did and be raised up from that death in order to save us from death by undoing it. That being said, no one was forced against their will to do anything that was done, and just because Christ had to die in that fashion doesn't make it ok for any individual person to have had a part in murdering their Creator. The truth is that scripture says that ALL the disciples fled at Christ's arrest and that peter denied Him three times. We are all Judas who betrayed Christ and Peter who denied Christ, but Peter returned to Christ in repentence and Judas didn't, so which disciple do we want to imitate?
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« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2012, 04:30:48 PM »

But why did Jesus have to die and suffer to save us?

Death is the last enemy.
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 01:15:29 PM »

Why precisely did he had to die?What did he achieved by his death?
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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 01:30:08 PM »

Azul,
Jesus did not have to die,but it was inevitable that he would be killed in our sinful world by the corrupted people.
God loves us so much that He sent us His only begotten Son to save us.

The reason Christ had to die was to pay for our sins,so to conquer the death. By having been crucified, dying and, subsequent,resurrection into Heaven,Christ broke the gates of Hell and repaid the sins of those who had been in it.

That's my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong,please.   
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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2012, 01:52:18 PM »

Azul,
Jesus did not have to die,but it was inevitable that he would be killed in our sinful world by the corrupted people.
God loves us so much that He sent us His only begotten Son to save us.

The reason Christ had to die was to pay for our sins,so to conquer the death. By having been crucified, dying and, subsequent,resurrection into Heaven,Christ broke the gates of Hell and repaid the sins of those who had been in it.

That's my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong,please.   

U just contradicted yourself .
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2012, 02:25:36 PM »

Remember, that even though Christ "had" to die.....Judas still could have chosen not to betray Him....

Something else could have led to the arrest and the trial.  It would still have happened...but, Judas wouldn't have been guilty of the betrayal.

However, the true "take away" here is not Judas's betrayal of Christ, but, his own reaction to his guilt.  THIS is what is monumental in this instance.

Simon Peter also betrayed Christ, by denying that he knew Him....and yet, Peter, in all his remorse, grief and guilt, humbled himself and cried begging God's forgiveness.
Judas, on the other hand, couldn't deal with the pain of his guilt, and instead of humbly asking for God's forgiveness, he took his own life, and compounded his sin.

The point is...NEVER despair so deeply that you can't turn to God for help.
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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2012, 02:39:43 PM »

Azul,
Jesus did not have to die,but it was inevitable that he would be killed in our sinful world by the corrupted people.
God loves us so much that He sent us His only begotten Son to save us.

The reason Christ had to die was to pay for our sins,so to conquer the death. By having been crucified, dying and, subsequent,resurrection into Heaven,Christ broke the gates of Hell and repaid the sins of those who had been in it.

That's my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong,please.   

U just contradicted yourself .
Sorry, I will re-phrase it.

Jesus did not have to die, He could have been saved by the Father himself from being arrested etc,but knew that is what He was going to do in order to fulfill the plan of Salvation, because of His love for human kind.
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« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2012, 02:43:56 PM »

Remember, that even though Christ "had" to die.....Judas still could have chosen not to betray Him....

Something else could have led to the arrest and the trial.  It would still have happened...but, Judas wouldn't have been guilty of the betrayal.

However, the true "take away" here is not Judas's betrayal of Christ, but, his own reaction to his guilt.  THIS is what is monumental in this instance.

Simon Peter also betrayed Christ, by denying that he knew Him....and yet, Peter, in all his remorse, grief and guilt, humbled himself and cried begging God's forgiveness.
Judas, on the other hand, couldn't deal with the pain of his guilt, and instead of humbly asking for God's forgiveness, he took his own life, and compounded his sin.

The point is...NEVER despair so deeply that you can't turn to God for help.


Yes,that is a very good point.

Sometimes, I wonder why Judas did what he did when Jesus had told all of His Apostles that one of them will betray Him,so obviously Judas must have heard his prediction and still went ahead and betrayed Jesus...
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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2012, 03:02:30 PM »

Isn't this one of the issues that Calvin used for his understanding of the view on predestination?
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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2012, 03:06:08 PM »

Not sure, could you elaborate on this,please?
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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2012, 03:08:01 PM »


But....remember, God didn't destine Judas to betray Christ...He only "knew" that Judas would do so, because He knew Judas was greedy.


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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2012, 03:13:02 PM »

But why did Judas having realised that Christ had known about his intention of the betrayal still went ahead and did it?
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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2012, 03:21:38 PM »


Greed...greed....and more greed.

He was so greedy for that silver that he didn't think it through.

This is why we are told not to "make false gods".

Here, money was a false god to Judas....and blinded him.

He fooled himself perhaps in to thinking that no real harm would come to Jesus, that they would just speak to him, or lecture him....or exile him...and let him go.

For it's only when he saw that it had gotten out of hand that reality hit....and he realized the gravity of his actions.

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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2012, 03:22:08 PM »

Thank you for your answers and hope you will all have a good Pasha.

What I gather from what has been said is that it was not God's plan to send His only Son to be tortured and killed.Jesus was sent down so He could save us.
The reason He was killed is because everyone had/has a free will and freedom of action.The Jews did not,for some reason, accept Jesus as the Messiah even though it was foretold in their own book of Torah.

It was not God's plan of Salvation to send His only Son to be tortured and killed,but the God knew that by sending His Son to save the world it was inevitable that He would be killed by men in that society.It was inevitable that this was going to happen as it is like throwing a person into a cage with wild lions to try to tame them, the consequences of which are perfectly clear.Similar situation was with Jesus, God knew that when His Son will preach and show the way people should live will not be accepted by some minority of cruel people,who were so corrupted and stubborn that they could not see the true light.

But God had to send Jesus so that by having been with us in a human form,He showed us how to pray,how to live,how to behave, how to think and how to love our Father as well as each other.By having resurrected back to life, Jesus broke the gates of Hell and showed that even if you are a sinner you are not hopeless as long as you repent and turn into a good God loving person you will be in Heaven with our God the Father and our Lord Jesus.

Jesus Christ was truly the Messiah,the Son of the loving God, who came not to judge,but to save the mankind,but himself was  judged by the men themselves He was saving.

Now the only thing we can do is repent our sins and try to live as righteous as possible the way our Father wants us to live in the name of Jesus,Ameen.
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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2012, 03:24:14 PM »

But why did Jesus have to die and suffer to save us?

Death is the last enemy.

That is the main point. Jews believed the Messiah would come to bring Peace. But what is it that is most in the way of Peace?

Romans come and go. Nazi's come and go. Death is our biggest enemy. Jesus came to meet death on it's own turf and defeat it, ushering in eternal Peace for all.
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« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2012, 03:27:32 PM »


Greed...greed....and more greed.

He was so greedy for that silver that he didn't think it through.

This is why we are told not to "make false gods".

Here, money was a false god to Judas....and blinded him.

He fooled himself perhaps in to thinking that no real harm would come to Jesus, that they would just speak to him, or lecture him....or exile him...and let him go.

For it's only when he saw that it had gotten out of hand that reality hit....and he realized the gravity of his actions.


Yes, that makes sense, people sin without thinking of consequences, because they are selfish to other people as well as themselves
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« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2012, 03:31:44 PM »

By defeating death, Christ saved all those who had gone before Him.

So, how were people saved thousand of years prior to coming of Jesus?
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« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2012, 03:32:00 PM »

Not sure, could you elaborate on this,please?
Calvin said that Judas had no free will and was born to do this and goes on into Why Jesus would ever call him to follow him. I'm not real big on calvinism just touched on it a bit. I know that he issued this issue to show that man don't have free will.
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« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2012, 03:48:36 PM »

Remember, that even though Christ "had" to die.....Judas still could have chosen not to betray Him....

Something else could have led to the arrest and the trial.  It would still have happened...but, Judas wouldn't have been guilty of the betrayal.

However, the true "take away" here is not Judas's betrayal of Christ, but, his own reaction to his guilt.  THIS is what is monumental in this instance.

Simon Peter also betrayed Christ, by denying that he knew Him....and yet, Peter, in all his remorse, grief and guilt, humbled himself and cried begging God's forgiveness.
Judas, on the other hand, couldn't deal with the pain of his guilt, and instead of humbly asking for God's forgiveness, he took his own life, and compounded his sin.

The point is...NEVER despair so deeply that you can't turn to God for help.


If Christ had to die, unless for the circumstances of suicid he would have been murdered.Someone had to murder him in the first place.In this case that "someone" would be doing the will of God.Also in this case G-d manipulated the events in order to achieve this.
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« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2012, 03:50:33 PM »

Not sure, could you elaborate on this,please?
Calvin said that Judas had no free will and was born to do this and goes on into Why Jesus would ever call him to follow him. I'm not real big on calvinism just touched on it a bit. I know that he issued this issue to show that man don't have free will.

No, I don't believe in that.
Everyone has a free will and a freedom of action.
Judas did not have to do what he did, he knew that Jesus was so kind and loving and it was wrong to betray him,but he did anyway, hence he hang himself because he did feel guilty at the end,realised the full significance of what he had done..
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« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2012, 04:03:36 PM »

Remember, that even though Christ "had" to die.....Judas still could have chosen not to betray Him....

Something else could have led to the arrest and the trial.  It would still have happened...but, Judas wouldn't have been guilty of the betrayal.

However, the true "take away" here is not Judas's betrayal of Christ, but, his own reaction to his guilt.  THIS is what is monumental in this instance.

Simon Peter also betrayed Christ, by denying that he knew Him....and yet, Peter, in all his remorse, grief and guilt, humbled himself and cried begging God's forgiveness.
Judas, on the other hand, couldn't deal with the pain of his guilt, and instead of humbly asking for God's forgiveness, he took his own life, and compounded his sin.

The point is...NEVER despair so deeply that you can't turn to God for help.


If Christ had to die, unless for the circumstances of suicid he would have been murdered.Someone had to murder him in the first place.In this case that "someone" would be doing the will of God.Also in this case G-d manipulated the events in order to achieve this.


As someone has put it "I think Christ had to die because I'm not sure how else one would enter Hades to free all of the people there. He became part of creation it stands to reason that He would have to follow the same path we all do."

People did not have to kill Jesus but they did out of their own actions, they judged Him themselves. God hadn't put the thoughts to murder Jesus in their minds, they came up with it themselves out of cruelty and stubbornness to believe Him for who Jesus was. As ialmisry said "just God using the free choices of man to His own purpose."
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 04:08:47 PM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2012, 04:29:31 PM »


God didn't manipulate anything.

Our own greed and selfishness always brings us down - be it Adam and Eve, or Judas and Jews.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
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