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Author Topic: Just watching a hockey game  (Read 2989 times) Average Rating: 0
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SouthSerb99
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« on: January 03, 2006, 10:28:45 AM »

A few weeks ago my sister and brother-in-law told me they would be spending New Year's Eve with me (coming from Toronto) to stay with us in Jersey.ÂÂ  I bought some hockey tickets for my B-I-L and myself as we are both die-hard Toronto Maple Leaf fans and they were in town playing the New Jersey Devils.

As luck would have it, during the second period we moved to some of the best seats in the house and were joined by many other Leaf fans.ÂÂ  A gentlemen asked if there was anyone sitting beside me and I said I was unsure, because I wasn't in the proper seat.ÂÂ  He ended up sitting one seat away.

We got to talking and he WAS A HUGE LEAF FAN (jersey, hat...everything).  He was raised in Toronto, but like me, now lives in Jersey.  When I asked him what he did for a living, he told me he was an Armenian Orthodox Priest at Church in central Jersey.  I was amazed (for a few reasons).  He was like NO Priest I'd ever met before (I say this in a good way).  ÃƒÆ’‚ Not only is he very knowledgeable on all things Orthodox, but, as I said, he is as CRAZY about hockey as I am.

He invited me to Liturgy in his Church, which I intend to do in the next few weeks.ÂÂ  He also told me about something I was unaware of, and I thought I would raise it here, for some thoughts.

He told me that "English Liturgy" has been strictly forbidden by the Armenian Patriarch.ÂÂ  We didn't really get into the "why of it" all, so I thought I'd ask here.ÂÂ  He told me that is was primarily a cultural reason for not allowing English in the liturgy and I sense that he probably supported the idea.

So I have a few questions.ÂÂ  Is this the same for most OO Churches?ÂÂ  If so, is there theological basis or is it more cultural.ÂÂ  If it is simply a question of the preservation of Armenian, Coptic, Indian etc... culture, do you run into the idea of phyletism and if so, is it applicable.

I was curious about these questions and didn't have enough of a chance at the hockey game to address them with this wonderful Priest.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 10:42:10 AM by SouthSerb99 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2006, 01:49:01 PM »

So I have a few questions.  Is this the same for most OO Churches?  If so, is there theological basis or is it more cultural.  If it is simply a question of the preservation of Armenian, Coptic, Indian etc... culture, do you run into the idea of phyletism and if so, is it applicable.

I was curious about these questions and didn't have enough of a chance at the hockey game to address them with this wonderful Priest.

The Armenian Church, to my knowledge, is the only Church which has come out with something official on this question.  I can't speak for the others, but in the Indian Church, there is no formal prohibition on English.  Many parishes use at least some English, and there is at least one parish which uses all English, with a Malayalam service once a month.  Malayalam tends to be the primary liturgical language in our parishes, and this is partly because we're still an immigrant community (first generation people, and their children, plus people "fresh off the boat"), and partly because people think the Church should promote culture, "English Liturgies sound bad", and other stupid reasons.  I agree with the former and disagree very much with the latter.  Fortunately, it seems like, slowly but surely, progress is being made.  God willing, it will come sooner than later.       

Hit the send button too fast...

Phyletism in the Oriental Churches is tricky.  Some months ago, I recall debate about that topic, and don't really wish to get into it here.  I would say there are elements of phyletism, but the situation is more complex than the EO situation because our Churches are from different cultures, and are used to a large amount of independence.  Rites, languages, etc. are so different that it promotes this independence.  Consequently, things can be viewed as phyletism, but often I think it just boils down to being a product of one's circumstances.  There is, at times, a subtle phyletism (where this independent tendency crosses the line), and whenever I see that, I try to crush it. 
« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 01:52:17 PM by Mor Ephrem » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2006, 03:02:08 PM »

Phyletism in the Oriental Churches is tricky.ÂÂ  Some months ago, I recall debate about that topic, and don't really wish to get into it here.ÂÂ  I would say there are elements of phyletism, but the situation is more complex than the EO situation because our Churches are from different cultures, and are used to a large amount of independence.ÂÂ  Rites, languages, etc. are so different that it promotes this independence.ÂÂ  Consequently, things can be viewed as phyletism, but often I think it just boils down to being a product of one's circumstances.ÂÂ  There is, at times, a subtle phyletism (where this independent tendency crosses the line), and whenever I see that, I try to crush it.ÂÂ  

Mor,

    Thanks.  That was a great explanation (both about the language and the question of phyletism).  I guess at the very root, I wanted to know if the doctrine of phyletism even existed amongst the OO Churches.  Thanks for the clarification.

     I've also pondered the question of phyletism in the Serbian Orthodox Church, and while it undoubtedly exists (and has been condemned as heresy), I've wondered if it was a product of our history, especially vis a vis, our Turkish rulers.  I'm sure this is probably also true of most OO's, especially the Armenians (given what the Turks did to them). 
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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2006, 09:48:17 PM »

As Phil said, as far as I know the Armenian Church is the only OO church that doesn't have English liturgies.  The liturgies are always in Classical Armenian. Classical Armenian is the Armenian that was spoken in the fifth century, when the Armenian alphabet was invented by St. Mesrob Mashtots and the liturgy was first translated.  There are, of course, reasons for this:

1.  In a lot of areas the Armenian population consists of new immigrants and they wouldn't understand an English liturgy. 

2.  The ethnic club mentality.  I hate admitting it, but that is big in the Armenian Church.  A lot of people view the Church as a national institution and using English would undermine this.  Part of this stems from the genocide, when the Turks tried wiping out all Armenians, and everything that was Armenian.  Even before the genocide, there were areas where it was illegal to speak Armenian publicly, and violators were subject to having their tongues cut out.  Consequently, people are very sensitive about the language.

There was a movement recently in the U.S. to start having English liturgies.  It gained momentum, but there was also a backlash.  There was in fact an online petition where hundreds (perhaps thousands?) of people signed on to preserve the liturgy as it was.  The issue was settled last June when our Catholicos visited the U.S.  He met with all the clergy and forbade English liturgies.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the idea of taking the liturgy as it is and translating it into English for Armenian communites where the people are third generation and only speak English.  However, I weighed in against the "English liturgy" movement.  The reason I did this is because everyone I personally know who was in the movement, or who supported the movement, also wanted other "reforms" such as a shorter liturgy (like the Vatican II mass,) turning the altar around so the priest faces the people, female priests, etc.  In fact, I kind of wonder if this had something to do with the Catholicos squelching the movement, although I haven't heard anything to that effect. 

O.K.  That's why we don't have English liturgies.  So why don't we have liturgies at least in the Modern Armenian language, instead of Classical, which few people understand?

I think it is because of the problem of which dialect.  As I explained in another thread, Armenian has two main dialects, Eastern and Western.  They are very different, with different sounds, words, grammar and even different verb conjugations.  It can be hard listening to the "other dialect."  My mom and I, for example speak Western Armenian.  I have trouble understanding Eastern and my mother can't understand it at all.  She in fact keeps insisting that the people who speak Eastern Armenian aren't speaking Armenian and that they are not even real Armenians.  Really.  She thinks these people belong to another ethnic group and that they are trying to pass themselves off as Armenian.  To which I always reply, "What non-Armenian in his right mind would want to pass himself off as an Armenian?"   Smiley  People can get emotional over this issue.   I run my church's bookstore and I often get people complaining about some book being in the other dialect and not their own.  For example, I had a guy come and want a particular children's Bible which was in Eastern Armenian.  He was a speaker of Western Armenian, and when I told him it was available only in Eastern, he slammed it down on the counter and shouted, "Makour Haiyeren che!"  ("It's not clean Armenian.")  I've had to get used to this attitude to run the bookstore.  Of course some really educated people can easily understand both (like my priest) but most really don't like dealing with the other dialect.  Consequently, I think the Church leadership has just decided that it is easier to keep it in the Classical.

So does that mean that people have no way of understanding the liturgy?  Of course not.  Most, if not all, Armenian churches have liturgy books available, with English on one side of the page and Armenian on the other.  I remember these books even existing many years ago when I used to go to my grandpa's church as a kid.  Not only do these books have Armenian and English, but the Armenian is transliterated into English letters for those who don't know the alphabet.  Some of the books also translate from Classical Armenian into Modern Armenian.  I also know that there are parishes with books translating from Classical Armenian into Russian, as there are some Armenians who are more educated in Russian.  Going a step further, my own parish has a power point screen up during the liturgy, translating everything into modern Armenian and English, so you don't even have to look at a book.

Do people still complain about not understanding the liturgy?  Of course.  However, I find that these are the same people who complain about the liturgy being too long, etc.  In other words, I think they are making excuses not to go to church.  The fact is, you can understand the liturgy just by immersing yourself in it for a period of time.  There are a lot of uneducated old ladies who have never studied Classical Armenian, but who could tell you exactly what everything means.  When the choir sings, "Der Voghormia" you just know that means, "Lord, have mercy" and you know what it means to ask God to have mercy on you.

I hope this sheds light on the issue.  It's pretty complicated and emotional.
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2006, 10:42:15 PM »

Salpy,

That was a fantastic and very educational.ÂÂ  Thank you very much.

SS99
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« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2006, 12:25:40 AM »

Hey Salpy and anyone else who knows, theres an Armenian church not too far from wherre I live and I've been invited to visit it once a logn time ago but never went because I wasn't sure what to do there.

Do Armenians kneel a lot like westerners or (traditionally) have no pews like the EO and thus stand lots?

Do men and women sit separately?

Do you have to do something right when you walk in church? Kneel at the side of the pew, light a candle, etc?

I know there is a "greeting" which is passed on by a deacon. How does this greeting work? Is it liek the (now extinct) "Byzantine kiss" where two people put their heads side to side without touching each other? And do you do it to a stranger or just family?

Tubirs--I've heard they are sort of female altar girls who can only serve until they reach of age. True?

Why do Armenian churches have few icons? I saw pictures of Armenian churches with an icon of the Virgin and Child and then candles and flowers before them and also lots of the very beautiful and intricate Armenian Cross.

I have 2 CD's of Armenian Mass (Yekmalian and a Gomidas/Komitas). They are very beautiful. How did the Armenian chanting sound before these great composers (and the Italian composer as well) harmonized them? More like Gregorian chant or more like Byzantine chant (with the bass/ison)?

The Armenians are an  Indo/European people like the Greeks correct? Or a Semetic people? I ask because some of them (like the Greeks) are both fair and dark. There doesn't seem to be a consistent "look" as Anglo-Saxons have. Then again this is common in many European and middle Eastern cultures...

It seems like the whole thing is a mix between Byzantine and Roman (Western) styles, i.e. there is a form of "I confess to Almighty God" just like in Roman Mass, and there is the "Let us stand well Let us stand in awe" as in the Byzantine Liturgy.

Sorry for the myriad of questions. I've been wondering about this for such a long time but don't know any Armenians personally to ask.


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« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2006, 12:37:12 AM »

Timos,

   I feel like the kid in class who finally knows the answer to a question and puts their hand high in the air, in hopes the teacher will ask them for answer.

    According to the Priest I sat with at the Leafs vs. Devils game, I can answer a few of these, although I'm sure Salpy will do a much better job.  I'll give my 2 pennies...

    According to the wonderful father.  Pews yes, but he wished NO.  He was surpised when I told him that every SOC I've belonged to did not have pews.  In fact, the Church where my parents currently attend,  was purchased from Anglicans and the first thing the "gosh darned" Serbs did was tear the pews out!!!  I told the Armenian Priest this story and he had a good chuckle about it.

     He said pews make it difficult for prostrations and that some Armenians kneel, even though they should not, for the life of me I can't remember why he said that some kneeled.

     No separation of women and men.  I've been to a Greek Orthodox Church, Russian and Bulgarian and did not see separation (like Serbs do), does anyone else separate?

     The Icons... I was told, that because of the terrible oppression of their Muslim rulers (who were iconoclasts) the Armenian Church did not develop a strong tradition of icons as other Orthodox Churches did... hence few icons.  Okay, that is everything I learned while my beloved Leafs pounded the Devils (New Jersey Devils that is).

    Salpy, feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.
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« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2006, 01:11:50 AM »

A few weeks ago my sister and brother-in-law told me they would be spending New Year's Eve with me (coming from Toronto) to stay with us in Jersey.  I bought some hockey tickets for my B-I-L and myself as we are both die-hard Toronto Maple Leaf fans and they were in town playing the New Jersey Devils.

South Serb,

So sorry to hear of this terrible affliction.  Wink

Bob, die-hard Senators fan.
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« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2006, 01:30:20 AM »

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=6593.0

I hope I pasted that correctly.  It was another thread from July and August of last summer which addressed some of these issues.

The Armenians and the Armenian language are Indo European. ÂÂ

I think it was in the 1920's when the Catholicos started allowing the churches to use pews.  I don't like them either.  Some people do kneel.  I think it is just a borrowing from the Catholics and it is technically improper in the Armenian Church.

Now-a-days men and women sit together, at least in the U.S.  When my mom was a kid, men and women sat seperately.  In the Coptic Church I notice that men and women still sit seperately.  I think that could be a good thing.  It reminds people that we are in church to focus on God, not on anyone else, not even our families.

Armenians have no problem with icons, but you won't see as many as you would in a Greek church or a Coptic church.  I also have heard the theory about the Muslims.  They used to like to desecrate the churches, so it became easier to just not have too many icons.  In any event, our theology regarding icons was never developed as elaborately as in the Chalcedonian churches, I guess because we never went through the iconoclast controversy.

When you walk into the church, it is customary to light a candle.  They should sell them in the narthex.

The kiss of peace is done like you said, with people putting their heads next to each other without touching, first on one side and then the other.  Just watch what the others do.  The "kiss" starts at the altar with a deacon kissing the altar and the priest's hand.  Then the deacon brings it down to the people.  He gives it to a couple of people who then pass it on.  You wait until someone next to you gives it to you and then you give it to the other person next to you.  To make things more complicated, we also say something while giving the kiss.  The person giving it says "Krisdos ee mech mer haidnetsav."  This means "Christ is revealed in our midst."  The person receiving it says "Orhnial eh haidnootiounun Krisdosee."  That means "Blessed is the revelation of Christ."  Don't worry about saying it.  Just do the motions and you'll be O.K.  You'd be surprised how many Armenians don't know it, or say it incorrectly.  (A lot give the Easter Greeting, because it sounds similar.)

"Tbir" is usually translated as "clerk."  It can mean anything from a choir member to an alter boy, but usually not a deacon.  In recent years, alter girls have become common in the U.S.  I don't agree with the practice.  It's not traditional, and I think it creates confusion and potentially hurt feelings when the girls see their brothers go on to become sub-deacons, while they are no longer allowed to serve at the alter after becoming teenagers. ÂÂ

Unfortunately, I don't know a lot about the history of the music.  The Yekmalian is what you are more likely to hear in most Sundays in most churches. ÂÂ

The Armenians did borrow some elements of the Latin mass during the Crusades.  This includes the confession the priest says before he goes up to the altar.  I think this is addressed in the other thread.

Don't worry. ÂÂ Just watch what other people are doing and follow along. ÂÂ At this point, you probably know more about the Armenian liturgy than many Armenians do. ÂÂ  Smiley ÂÂ  They should have liturgy books in the pews. ÂÂ If they don't, ask the person who is selling candles, and they should be able to get you one. ÂÂ
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« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2006, 01:34:43 AM »

I just posted my reply and I notice that between each sentence is ":nbsp;".  Do the rest of you see that?  Does anyone know what that is?  I guess I should ask on the tech support forum.
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« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2006, 02:06:54 AM »

I see a lot of question marks, but no ":nbsp;"...

Indians still have men and women on separate sides. 
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« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2006, 02:20:03 AM »

How weird.  I didn't put any question marks in that post (the response to Timos.)
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« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2006, 09:39:16 AM »

Bob, die-hard Senators fan.

Thanks Bob.ÂÂ  You owe me $3.75 for causing me to bring up my breakfast.ÂÂ  Senators... sheesh!ÂÂ  Really yuckie.

I tell ya, that line above is worse than cursing!ÂÂ  One more line like that, and I'll be forced to use my moderatorial powers against you!!!ÂÂ  Wink

BTW, what's the Sens record against the Leafs in the playoffs?ÂÂ  KissÂÂ  :'(
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« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2006, 11:59:46 AM »

thnx Salpy and SouthSerb for yourexcellent responses.

I went to an Armenian folk thing once and the dancing and music is comparable to Greek, Lebanese, or even Serbian folk stuff.

the women's costumes look like Medieval princesses waiting to be saved by a knight from a fiery dragon  Cheesy
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« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2006, 12:10:17 PM »

Pittsburgh Penguins fan here!
Crosby is pretty awesome.
First Mario, then Jagr, now Crosby!
Pretty good, eh?
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« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2006, 12:13:16 PM »

Also
great thread, respectful, informative - what all these threads should be
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« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2006, 12:34:36 PM »

Also
great thread, respectful, informative - what all these threads should be

Brother Aidan,

   Absolutely true!  Thanks Salpy for the information.  Everything on this thread was great with the exception of the infiltration of the Sens fan.  Grin (We don't mind the Pens in Toronto, although don't ya think little Crosby would look great in Blue & White?)  Wink
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« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2006, 12:59:42 PM »

Glad the Blue and White fans respect the Pens

I have season tickets here

We had a bunch of B&W in the building last week (12/27) and I commented that I like them best (Detroit, Philly, and Toronto people all buy alot of tickets to Pens home games) - they are respectful and come to watch their team (not taunt Pens fans)
(of course Flyers fans are the worst!)

But Syd looks great in Black and Gold and I really couldn't see him in any other color - except if the Pens went back to their own blue, white and black of the 70's!! (I prefer the baby blue of the early years, but would be okay with the royal blue of the later 70's)

Thanks to the lockout and strong stand of the owners last winter and the new CBA, he will remain in a Pens uniform his whole career.

and yes, thank you to Salpy

And if you observe "old calendar" Nativity, enjoy a blessed celebration this weekend!

(BTW, you will enjoy this; my Latin rite friend e-mailed me to ask if he could releive me of my tickets for this Saturday, since it would be Christmas eve on the old calendar, knowing full well that  my jurisdiction is OCA and  as "new calendarists" we celebrated on the 24th/25th - some people will use anything!)
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« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2006, 10:00:44 PM »

we are both die-hard Toronto Maple Leaf fans
SouthSerb,
A Toronto Maple Leaf fan???!!!  I'd give you a hard time if the Devils had played better that night, so for now I'll let it slide.
Salpy,
Several years ago, when I was in Jerusalem, I attended the morning service at the Cathedral of St James.  A beautiful church and beautiful service.  During the service, one of the seminarians came over to me and handed me an English translation of the service and afterwards gave me a private tour of the church.
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« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2006, 11:05:13 PM »

BTW, what's the Sens record against the Leafs in the playoffs?  Kiss  :'(

About to improve dramatically.   Wink Cool
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« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2006, 11:14:13 PM »

Pittsburgh Penguins fan here!
Crosby is pretty awesome.
First Mario, then Jagr, now Crosby!
Pretty good, eh?

Crosby's going to be something else.  He's already really good, and he's just 18!  Rest assured that he would look terrible in blue and white.  However, you're sure to risk losing his services to the Leafs when he's about 35, since they aggressively pursue most great players when they are on the verge of their twilight years.  But I digress.  I hope that things continue to improve in Pittsburgh.  All the best!

Bob
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« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2006, 11:17:30 PM »

However, you're sure to risk losing his services to the Leafs when he's about 35, since they aggressively pursue most great players when they are on the verge of their twilight years.ÂÂ  But I digress.ÂÂ  I hope that things continue to improve in Pittsburgh.ÂÂ  All the best!

Yes, all of those veteran's really help you beat the snot out of overrated "speedsters" come playoff time (when it matters). LOL
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« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2006, 01:24:44 AM »

I can't believe Americans actualyl watch hockey! I thought it was only a Canadian thing built in all Canadians. I love to play hockey and watch it live. I remember the days when they used to play in the Maple Leaf Gardens. Its history now. Toronto's Sky Dome is also now called the "Roger's Centre". And we actually had more than 3 people die of gun violence this past year (2005). Shocking for Torontonians which prove Toronto is not quite the NY city people make it out to be.
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« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2006, 01:57:16 PM »

Well this is pretty awesome that there are so many Othodox dedicated hockey fans and at least one Orthodox priest that we know of who loves hockey!
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« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2006, 03:10:00 PM »

Well this is pretty awesome that there are so many Othodox dedicated hockey fans and at least one Orthodox priest that we know of who loves hockey!

Yes, I can imagine this Priest has asked for a few intercessions on behalf of his beloved Leafs! LOL

Actually, he told me a very interesting story about Lou Lamerillo.  He told me that he sent the Devils a letter asking if they wanted/needed a team Chaplain and offered his services.  He said he got a very nice letter from Lou (personally) declining, but being very thoughtful in doing so.

Doesn't it seem obvious that the Devils need a team chaplain more than anyone else!  Cheesy
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« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2006, 03:21:22 PM »

On a serious note, hockey may be the most un-churched sport among the major professional sports.

Youth hockey is heavily concentrated on the weekend. Unless you are RC or attend a megachurch with a bunch of service offerings, you're missing church at least two Sundays a month.

If you are good enough to play junior hockey, you will almost never be in church on Sunday during the season; college players play Fri and Sat night, but for a college athlete to get up on sunday morning consistently, he would have to be a near saint to begin with!

so by the time they reach the pros, the habit of church attendance (if it was ever there) is probably not even a nostalgic memory.

And all those athlete-oriented evangelical ministries, seem to have overlooked hockey altogether.

It's too bad Lou turned  the priest down. Orthodoxy should hijack hockey as a ministry - leave football, baseball and hoops to the evangelicals!!
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« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2006, 03:38:56 PM »

On a serious note, hockey may be the most un-churched sport among the major professional sports.

Youth hockey is heavily concentrated on the weekend. Unless you are RC or attend a megachurch with a bunch of service offerings, you're missing church at least two Sundays a month.

If you are good enough to play junior hockey, you will almost never be in church on Sunday during the season; college players play Fri and Sat night, but for a college athlete to get up on sunday morning consistently, he would have to be a near saint to begin with!

so by the time they reach the pros, the habit of church attendance (if it was ever there) is probably not even a nostalgic memory.

And all those athlete-oriented evangelical ministries, seem to have overlooked hockey altogether.

It's too bad Lou turnedÂÂ  the priest down. Orthodoxy should hijack hockey as a ministry - leave football, baseball and hoops to the evangelicals!!

BA,

   Correct on anything (spoken from personal experience).  Loved the line about hijacking hockey!
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« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2011, 09:13:22 PM »

Quote
Just watching a hockey game

I am as well. Penguins are on right now. Probably watch that rather than the Packers game.
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« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2011, 09:38:01 PM »

Sounds to me like the OP happened to sit next to Fr. Shnork Souin, from St. Mary's in New Jersey.  He's the first Canadian-born priest in the Armenian Church.  He also plays recreational hockey. 
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« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2011, 09:57:33 PM »

Quote
Just watching a hockey game

I am as well. Penguins are on right now. Probably watch that rather than the Packers game.
You're even better at Thread resurrections! than I am.
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« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2011, 10:00:53 PM »

Quote
Just watching a hockey game

I am as well. Penguins are on right now. Probably watch that rather than the Packers game.
You're even better at Thread resurrections! than I am.

If we let these magnificent threads die an ignoble death, what kind of stewards would we be?
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« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2011, 10:06:39 PM »

Quote
Just watching a hockey game

I am as well. Penguins are on right now. Probably watch that rather than the Packers game.
You're even better at Thread resurrections! than I am.

If we let these magnificent threads die an ignoble death, what kind of stewards would we be?
Amen.
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« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2011, 10:41:24 PM »

Quote
Just watching a hockey game

I am as well. Penguins are on right now. Probably watch that rather than the Packers game.
You're even better at Thread resurrections! than I am.

If we let these magnificent threads die an ignoble death, what kind of stewards would we be?
Amen.
Hey, a nerd has to do something to celebrate two binary days in a row (10/10/11 & 10/11/11). Grin
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