Author Topic: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24  (Read 5584 times)

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Offline griego catolico

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2015, 11:01:42 PM »
It can't be a guy with a hooded robe?

I was thinking the same thing. Is it the style of veil that the mustached man wears that says it should really be woman?

If you look at the top of the larger icon, you see a bearded man with a hood/veil. Should it have looked more like that style?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 11:06:18 PM by griego catolico »

Offline CoptoGeek

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2015, 01:01:02 PM »
Here is today's Commemoration Ceremony:

Armenian Genocide Commemoration Ceremony
https://youtu.be/NiqN39pw-nc
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2015, 11:08:52 PM »
It can't be a guy with a hooded robe?

I was thinking the same thing. Is it the style of veil that the mustached man wears that says it should really be woman?

If you look at the top of the larger icon, you see a bearded man with a hood/veil. Should it have looked more like that style?

The headdress is something normally associated with Armenian women's historical costumes.  I was talking to a friend who had noticed the figure too, and thought it was a mustachioed woman, or a man dressed as a woman.  I briefly saw my priest, though, asked him about it, and he said he thought it was just a man.

I guess only God and the iconographer really know. 

Offline griego catolico

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2015, 12:53:31 PM »
I've never heard of the Armenian Church adding to the calendar any person who was not in communion with her.  So I am going to assume that the canonization will be for those who were killed who were also in communion with the Armenian Church.

I was informed two days ago that a reply sent through the official Holy Etchmiadzin Facebook page to a question about whether the canonization was limited to Armenian Apostolic Christians only stated that the canonization does not discriminate between Catholic and Apostolic. 

Just passing along what was told to me.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2015, 12:31:40 AM »
I've never heard of the Armenian Church adding to the calendar any person who was not in communion with her.  So I am going to assume that the canonization will be for those who were killed who were also in communion with the Armenian Church.

I was informed two days ago that a reply sent through the official Holy Etchmiadzin Facebook page to a question about whether the canonization was limited to Armenian Apostolic Christians only stated that the canonization does not discriminate between Catholic and Apostolic. 

Just passing along what was told to me.

Is it possible to get exact quotes and links to the question and response?  It seems a bit weird, since I've never known the Church to canonize persons with whom she is not in communion.

It could be whoever gave the answer was making the sort of point Fr. Daniel Findikyan was making on page five of the article I linked above: That of all those who died, only God knows exactly who the martyrs are:

Quote
WHO ARE THE NEW MARTYRS?
The Armenian Church will canonize “the holy martyrs who gave their lives for faith and for the homeland during the Armenian Genocide.” No specific names will be mentioned nor will a fixed number of martyrs be defined. It goes without saying that we cannot assume that each and every one of the 1.5 million victims of the Armenian Genocide (even that number is only an estimate) truly sacrificed his or her life in imitation of Jesus Christ and in complete faith in the resurrection of the dead. On the other hand, we know with absolute certainty that countless Armenian men and women were given the opportunity to spare their lives in return for renouncing their Christian faith and accepting Islam—and they chose martyrdom, so sure were they in the eternal and irrevocable protection of Jesus Christ.

Out of 1.5 million victims how many were true Christian martyrs? Thousands? Surely. Tens of thousands? Likely. Hundreds of thousands? Quite possibly. The Armenian Church will acknowledge these martyrs even though we do not know the names or precise circumstances of each one. God knows who they are and for us that is sufficient.

Of course we do know the names and circumstances of hundreds of our Genocide martyrs, specifically the clergy. Short accounts of the lives, and in many cases of the martyrdom, of over 1000 Armenian clergy who perished during the Genocide were compiled in 1921 by a Genocide survivor named Teotos Lapchinian, usually known as Teotig. His monumental work (written in Armenian) is entitled Golgotha of the Armenian Clergy and its Flock: The Devastating Year 1915. The Krikor and Clara Zohrab Information Center of the Eastern Diocese is currently translating many of these “martyrs’ acts” and will distribute them widely so that we may all be edified by the Christian faith of our ancestors. In the century following the Genocide, scores of survivors’ stories have been published, many of which contain accounts of martyrdom. It is anticipated that in the coming years these martyrs’ acts will be collected and will become a source of inspiration to strengthen the faith of our people.

Offline Aram

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2015, 12:52:41 AM »
I'll just go ahead and say it, because I've pretty much felt this way for years: I'm not entirely certain a good portion of the Armenian Church realizes that we're not actually in communion with the Catholic Church. The blurring of lines is frankly kind of amazing, and it's been on exceptional display these past few weeks. If indeed someone from Etchmiadzin insinuated that Armenian Catholics were included in the glorification... Par for the course. We're doing an absolutely terrible job of teaching our community what we believe and who we are.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2015, 01:04:53 AM »
I agree. 

I appreciate what Pope Francis did in publicly mentioning the Genocide.  It was a risky thing to do and he did it because it was right.  And I know that our relations with the Catholics have been pretty cordial all these centuries.  But people need to realize that we are not the same Church.  The Catholics are great, but we are not in communion with them.


Offline Salpy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2015, 01:07:07 AM »
We're doing an absolutely terrible job of teaching our community what we believe and who we are.

Unfortunately, this is especially true.

Offline Aram

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2015, 01:09:19 AM »
I agree. 

I appreciate what Pope Francis did in publicly mentioning the Genocide.  It was a risky thing to do and he did it because it was right.  And I know that our relations with the Catholics have been pretty cordial all these centuries.  But people need to realize that we are not the same Church.  The Catholics are great, but we are not in communion with them.
It really would have helped if the Catholicoi weren't pretty much fully vested and doing everything but taking communion at St. Peter's.

Personally, I was kind of amazed that the diocese put together these travel packages and promoted a "pilgrimage" to the Vatican for the service. Come on, people... "Pilgrimage?"

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2015, 01:13:06 AM »
Personally, I was kind of amazed that the diocese put together these travel packages and promoted a "pilgrimage" to the Vatican for the service. Come on, people... "Pilgrimage?"

Was there no religious activity on the pilgrimage schedule except the event at the Vatican? 
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Offline Aram

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2015, 01:37:39 AM »
Personally, I was kind of amazed that the diocese put together these travel packages and promoted a "pilgrimage" to the Vatican for the service. Come on, people... "Pilgrimage?"

Was there no religious activity on the pilgrimage schedule except the event at the Vatican?
Hold up, it was a "spiritual journey." Not a "pilgrimage."

https://gallery.mailchimp.com/727aaae8ea56658ecf4a092d5/files/Rome2015.pdf

Airfare. Three nights in a four-star hotel. Entry to the Catholic Mass. Didn't even swing 'em through for a visit to the Mekhitarists while they were on that side of the globe...
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 01:38:50 AM by Aram »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2015, 01:51:47 AM »
Personally, I was kind of amazed that the diocese put together these travel packages and promoted a "pilgrimage" to the Vatican for the service. Come on, people... "Pilgrimage?"

Was there no religious activity on the pilgrimage schedule except the event at the Vatican?
Hold up, it was a "spiritual journey." Not a "pilgrimage."

https://gallery.mailchimp.com/727aaae8ea56658ecf4a092d5/files/Rome2015.pdf

Airfare. Three nights in a four-star hotel. Entry to the Catholic Mass. Didn't even swing 'em through for a visit to the Mekhitarists while they were on that side of the globe...

Ugh.  At first I was a bit curious why you seemed to oppose the idea of going on pilgrimage to Rome.  After all, there are many shrines which would be entirely appropriate for us to visit there, seeing as they are of common saints.  But now I think I get it. 
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Offline Aram

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2015, 01:57:47 AM »
Don't even get me started on the announcement I saw for a commemorative liturgy that explicitly invited both EO and Catholics to attend and receive communion... I'll leave it at that.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 01:58:08 AM by Aram »

Offline vasnTearn

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2015, 08:27:08 AM »
They have not yet posted an official image of the icon, but there seems to be two icons that they blessed. oen small and one large. here are some screenshots







Oh my goodness.  I see the mustache on the woman in the second icon.  How awful.

What could have happened?  Did some naughty altar boys with a paint set break into the room storing the icon and vandalize it?  Maybe the iconographer originally painted a man there, and then wanted to change the person into a woman, but forgot to paint over the mustache?  What happened?

LOL, Salpy, nothing happened :) It's a man, not woman. The painter just was unable to depict the head-dress accurately. See the picture below:


This is an Armenian man from Sasun.

Offline Aram

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2015, 10:14:41 AM »
Well, then, they made two mistakes: Not being able to draw a headdress correctly, and choosing to put the person in the classic "mother-and-child" pose when they intended it to be a man. And there's not a single man in that icon with a similar headdress.

I'm still inclined to say it's a woman with a mustache. And that Antelias needs to find themselves a better painter.

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2015, 12:57:52 PM »


If you look at the Icon as a whole you will find that several of the men depicted have the same headdress and clothing. The style of the image suggests it was made in Etchmiadzin. Antelias generally favors the style of the larger image.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 12:59:17 PM by Brigidsboy »
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Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #61 on: April 29, 2015, 02:56:32 PM »
Don't even get me started on the announcement I saw for a commemorative liturgy that explicitly invited both EO and Catholics to attend and receive communion... I'll leave it at that.

Hi Aram:

Neither the Diocese, Eastern Prelacy or the Genocide Commemoration Committee websites have any statement at all about who can receive communion at the DC Liturgy.

Can you share the invitation you received?

Thanks!
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Offline Aram

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #62 on: April 29, 2015, 04:53:42 PM »
Don't even get me started on the announcement I saw for a commemorative liturgy that explicitly invited both EO and Catholics to attend and receive communion... I'll leave it at that.

Hi Aram:

Neither the Diocese, Eastern Prelacy or the Genocide Commemoration Committee websites have any statement at all about who can receive communion at the DC Liturgy.

Can you share the invitation you received?

Thanks!
This was for a local event on the east coast, not the large DC event.

Offline Aram

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2015, 04:56:18 PM »
If you look at the Icon as a whole you will find that several of the men depicted have the same headdress and clothing. The style of the image suggests it was made in Etchmiadzin. Antelias generally favors the style of the larger image.
My observations seems to indicate that you're flipping it--the large image is pretty much exactly the kind of art Etchmiadzin is putting out these days. Also note that the smaller image was on the side Aram Vehapar was on for the entire service, and that he blessed that particular image, IIRC.

But, whatever. Doesn't really matter.

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2015, 06:05:41 PM »
May the mustached man with headdress holding a child pray for us!
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2015, 10:00:11 PM »

LOL, Salpy, nothing happened :) It's a man, not woman. The painter just was unable to depict the head-dress accurately. See the picture below:


This is an Armenian man from Sasun.

So the person is a Sasountsi man, and not a woman with a mustache.  Well that's a relief.   

I guess I am not that familiar with the traditional male costumes.  Growing up, I mostly saw pictures and examples of the traditional women's dresses, with the traditional կոտ headdress and veil.  The picture in the icon seemed to resemble it.  And it didn't help that the man is carrying a child and the headdress is pink.   :)   I need to familiarize myself with the traditional costumes for men.  I have a very old photograph of my grandfather's grandfather, taken before the Genocide.  In that photo, he is wearing a fez, but then that is not Armenian.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #66 on: April 29, 2015, 10:02:36 PM »
I have another question about the icon:

The Dove that is over the Martyrs seems to have a halo that I normally associate with Christ.  Do others see what I mean?  Is that something others have seen before?  I am a little confused by it.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #67 on: April 29, 2015, 10:04:34 PM »
And it didn't help that...the headdress is pink.   :)   

There's nothing unmanly about a man with a pink headdress, Salpy. 

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Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #68 on: April 29, 2015, 10:05:08 PM »
I have another question about the icon:

The Dove that is over the Martyrs seems to have a halo that I normally associate with Christ.  Do others see what I mean?  Is that something others have seen before?  I am a little confused by it.

The Dove is the Symbol of the Holy Spirit universally in Christian Art.
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #69 on: April 29, 2015, 10:05:46 PM »
And it didn't help that...the headdress is pink.   :)   

There's nothing unmanly about a man with a pink headdress, Salpy. 



Oops!  Sorry Mor.

By the way, you're a handsome guy.   :)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 10:06:32 PM by Salpy »

Offline Salpy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2015, 10:07:17 PM »
I have another question about the icon:

The Dove that is over the Martyrs seems to have a halo that I normally associate with Christ.  Do others see what I mean?  Is that something others have seen before?  I am a little confused by it.

The Dove is the Symbol of the Holy Spirit universally in Christian Art.

That I understand.  I am just wondering if He is normally given the same halo as Christ.

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2015, 10:09:20 PM »
I have another question about the icon:

The Dove that is over the Martyrs seems to have a halo that I normally associate with Christ.  Do others see what I mean?  Is that something others have seen before?  I am a little confused by it.

The Dove is the Symbol of the Holy Spirit universally in Christian Art.

That I understand.  I am just wondering if He is normally given the same halo as Christ.

Quite often in my experience.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2015, 10:15:14 PM »
And it didn't help that...the headdress is pink.   :)   

There's nothing unmanly about a man with a pink headdress, Salpy. 



Oops!  Sorry Mor.

By the way, you're a handsome guy.   :)

Thank you.  In the fall of 2001, a song was released named "Dance With Me" which contained the refrain "If you're sexy and you know it clap your hands...".  I've been giving myself a standing ovation for the last thirteen years. 
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #73 on: April 29, 2015, 11:15:53 PM »
I have another question about the icon:

The Dove that is over the Martyrs seems to have a halo that I normally associate with Christ.  Do others see what I mean?  Is that something others have seen before?  I am a little confused by it.

The Dove is the Symbol of the Holy Spirit universally in Christian Art.

That I understand.  I am just wondering if He is normally given the same halo as Christ.

Quite often in my experience.

Thanks.  So it's not unusual.  I guess I just never noticed it before.

Offline griego catolico

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2015, 11:12:14 PM »
I've never heard of the Armenian Church adding to the calendar any person who was not in communion with her.  So I am going to assume that the canonization will be for those who were killed who were also in communion with the Armenian Church.

I was informed two days ago that a reply sent through the official Holy Etchmiadzin Facebook page to a question about whether the canonization was limited to Armenian Apostolic Christians only stated that the canonization does not discriminate between Catholic and Apostolic. 

Just passing along what was told to me.

Is it possible to get exact quotes and links to the question and response?  It seems a bit weird, since I've never known the Church to canonize persons with whom she is not in communion.

It could be whoever gave the answer was making the sort of point Fr. Daniel Findikyan was making on page five of the article I linked above: That of all those who died, only God knows exactly who the martyrs are:

Quote
WHO ARE THE NEW MARTYRS?
The Armenian Church will canonize “the holy martyrs who gave their lives for faith and for the homeland during the Armenian Genocide.” No specific names will be mentioned nor will a fixed number of martyrs be defined. It goes without saying that we cannot assume that each and every one of the 1.5 million victims of the Armenian Genocide (even that number is only an estimate) truly sacrificed his or her life in imitation of Jesus Christ and in complete faith in the resurrection of the dead. On the other hand, we know with absolute certainty that countless Armenian men and women were given the opportunity to spare their lives in return for renouncing their Christian faith and accepting Islam—and they chose martyrdom, so sure were they in the eternal and irrevocable protection of Jesus Christ.

Out of 1.5 million victims how many were true Christian martyrs? Thousands? Surely. Tens of thousands? Likely. Hundreds of thousands? Quite possibly. The Armenian Church will acknowledge these martyrs even though we do not know the names or precise circumstances of each one. God knows who they are and for us that is sufficient.

Of course we do know the names and circumstances of hundreds of our Genocide martyrs, specifically the clergy. Short accounts of the lives, and in many cases of the martyrdom, of over 1000 Armenian clergy who perished during the Genocide were compiled in 1921 by a Genocide survivor named Teotos Lapchinian, usually known as Teotig. His monumental work (written in Armenian) is entitled Golgotha of the Armenian Clergy and its Flock: The Devastating Year 1915. The Krikor and Clara Zohrab Information Center of the Eastern Diocese is currently translating many of these “martyrs’ acts” and will distribute them widely so that we may all be edified by the Christian faith of our ancestors. In the century following the Genocide, scores of survivors’ stories have been published, many of which contain accounts of martyrdom. It is anticipated that in the coming years these martyrs’ acts will be collected and will become a source of inspiration to strengthen the faith of our people.

Salpy,

The reply was a private message sent through the Holy Etchmiadzin Facebook page. I have asked my friend to provide me an exact quote of the message.
I, in turn, have sent an email to the two catholicosates about the matter and am awaiting their replies.

I was wondering if you could provide me a summary of what this paragraph is stating:

Quote
Առաջին , արդեօ՞ք Հայ եկեղեցու համար այդ մէկ ու կէս միլիոն հայերը բոլորը քրիստոնեաներ էին, մինչդեռ պատմութեանը յայտնի է, որ նրանց շարքերում կային ե՛ւ աթէիստներ, ե՛ւ հեթանոսներ, ե՛ւ մասոններ, իսկ եղած քրիստոնեաներն էլ միահաւատ չէին, այսինքն՝ կային ե՛ւ ուղղափառներ, ե՛ւ կաթողիկէներ, ե՛ւ բողոքականներ։ Ստացւում է, որ այս բոլոր զոհերը սո՞ւրբ են, իսկ եթէ սրբադասուեցին միայն քրիստոնեայ զոհերը, ինչպէ՞ս կարող են Հայ Առաքելական եկեղեցու կողմից սրբադասուել այլ՝ ոչ դաւանակից եկեղեցիների անդամ քրիստոնեաները (ուղղափառ, կաթողիկէ, բողոքական): Եթէ մի պահ ընդունենք, որ իրապէս միայն «վասն հաւատոյ» նահատակուածներն են սրբադասուել, այստեղ էլ հարցեր են առաջանում։ Օրինակ` բողոքական հայերը, որոնք «վասն հաւատոյ» են նահատակուել ցեղասպանութեան ժամանակ, սրբադասուե՞լ են Հայ եկեղեցու կողմից։ Մի՞թէ բողոքական դաւանանքը չի մերժւում Աւանդական եկեղեցիների, այդ թւում՝ Հայ եկեղեցու կողմից։ Իսկ եթէ բողոքական նահատակ քրիստոնեաներն էլ են սրբադասուել Հայ եկեղեցու կողմից, հիմա ինչո՞ւ է Հայ եկեղեցին պայքարում բողոքական խմբաւորումների՝ «Կեանքի խօսքի», Յիսունական» -ների եւ մնացած աղանդների դէմ։

Here is the source: http://my.mamul.am/am/post/44796/հայ-եկեղեցու-նորագոյն-անյայտ-սուրբերը

I tried Google Translate, but it's difficult to understand. There is a mention of victims of the Genocide who were not members of the Armenian Apostolic Church (i.e, Catholics, Protestants, etc.). Is this addressing the issue of whether they are saints as well?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 11:15:26 PM by griego catolico »

Offline Salpy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #75 on: May 01, 2015, 01:28:33 AM »
My Armenian is pretty bad.  I can talk to my mom and people at church, but when I turn on the Armenian channel on TV and they discuss the economy, it's like I'm listening to Chinese. 

That being said, I did my best with the paragraph you pasted.  It had lots of big words, and the sentences were complex, but I tried.  This is what I got, and I'm sure it's not perfect:

First, for the Armenian Church, could these one and one half million Armenians all have been Christian, when historically it appears that among their ranks were atheists, heathens and Masons, and the Christians were not all of one faith, in other words there were Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants?   Is it accepted that all these victims are saints, or if only the Christian victims, how can the Armenian Apostolic Church canonize also those who are not members of the Church (Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants?)  If we accept for one moment that the martyrs are truly canonized only “for the faith,” then that presents questions also.  For example, were the Protestant Christians who were martyred “for the faith” at the time of the Genocide also canonized by the Armenian Church?  Don’t the Protestants reject the traditional churches, including the Armenian Church?  And if the Protestant Christian martyrs are also canonized by the Armenian Church, why is the Armenian Church now fighting against the Protestant groups, “Word of Life,” Pentecostals, and other groups?

 

VasnTearn's Armenian is a thousand times better than mine, and I am sure she can correct my translation if she sees this.

The author is basically asking the question, What of those who died for Christ, but weren't members of the Church?  I like Fr. Findikyan's explanation that out of the vast number who died, only God knows who is among the saints that were canonized.

What if there were some Protestants who truly loved God, and who were killed when they refused to renounce Christ and convert to Islam?  Who are we to say that God hasn't somehow made them saints also?  Granted it would be kind of weird since Protestants don't believe in saints, but still, who are we to say?  And to answer the question at the end of the paragraph, I don't think this would invalidate the struggle against the sects.  This would not mean that we would have to accept their churches as being true, much less the same as ours. 

I've always been taught that the Church believes in mystery.  We don't have to have answers for every little thing.  And sometimes accepting that is the hardest thing we do as Christians.  I personally am OK with letting go and trusting God to sort out who is a saint and who is not. 

But I do have trouble with someone saying that those outside the Church were definitely among those canonized.

Offline griego catolico

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #76 on: May 01, 2015, 08:09:05 PM »
My Armenian is pretty bad.  I can talk to my mom and people at church, but when I turn on the Armenian channel on TV and they discuss the economy, it's like I'm listening to Chinese. 

That being said, I did my best with the paragraph you pasted.  It had lots of big words, and the sentences were complex, but I tried.  This is what I got, and I'm sure it's not perfect:

First, for the Armenian Church, could these one and one half million Armenians all have been Christian, when historically it appears that among their ranks were atheists, heathens and Masons, and the Christians were not all of one faith, in other words there were Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants?   Is it accepted that all these victims are saints, or if only the Christian victims, how can the Armenian Apostolic Church canonize also those who are not members of the Church (Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants?)  If we accept for one moment that the martyrs are truly canonized only “for the faith,” then that presents questions also.  For example, were the Protestant Christians who were martyred “for the faith” at the time of the Genocide also canonized by the Armenian Church?  Don’t the Protestants reject the traditional churches, including the Armenian Church?  And if the Protestant Christian martyrs are also canonized by the Armenian Church, why is the Armenian Church now fighting against the Protestant groups, “Word of Life,” Pentecostals, and other groups?

 

VasnTearn's Armenian is a thousand times better than mine, and I am sure she can correct my translation if she sees this.

The author is basically asking the question, What of those who died for Christ, but weren't members of the Church?  I like Fr. Findikyan's explanation that out of the vast number who died, only God knows who is among the saints that were canonized.

What if there were some Protestants who truly loved God, and who were killed when they refused to renounce Christ and convert to Islam?  Who are we to say that God hasn't somehow made them saints also?  Granted it would be kind of weird since Protestants don't believe in saints, but still, who are we to say?  And to answer the question at the end of the paragraph, I don't think this would invalidate the struggle against the sects.  This would not mean that we would have to accept their churches as being true, much less the same as ours. 

I've always been taught that the Church believes in mystery.  We don't have to have answers for every little thing.  And sometimes accepting that is the hardest thing we do as Christians.  I personally am OK with letting go and trusting God to sort out who is a saint and who is not. 

But I do have trouble with someone saying that those outside the Church were definitely among those canonized.

Thank you very much, Salpy, for taking the time to translate the paragraph.

I did find this article which has the following quote:

Quote
Bishop Bagrat Galstyan, Director of Ecclesiastical Conceptual Affairs Office at Mother See of Holy Echmiadzin, said that there is no special number for Canonization, because it is not clear how many genocide victims were followers of the Apostolic Church; it will be a collective ritual.
According to him, the canonization will be an unprecedented event since the last saint that was proclaimed and is remembered is Hayrapet Movses Tatevatsi, who was canonized in the 18th century.
The Bishop said that there are four conditions for Canonization, they are martyrdom for the faith and the fatherland, pious life – pious behavior of an individual or a collective, existence of miracles alive or dead, and preaching the faith, spreading the belief.

It only makes sense that the Armenian Apostolic Church would canonize her own faithful and not those who were not in communion with her. 

There is an Armenian Catholic, Archbishop Ignatius Maloyan, who was martyred June 1951 and has been beatified. A required miracle needs to be verified for his canonization. It certainly would have been unusual if he had been canonized on April 23 before the Vatican canonizes him.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 08:17:11 PM by griego catolico »

Offline Salpy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #77 on: May 15, 2015, 01:09:47 AM »
Video made by the Eastern Diocese called "A Great Cloud of Witnesses"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XsiC2OjVuM
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 01:18:57 AM by Salpy »

Offline Salpy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #78 on: June 23, 2015, 10:45:15 PM »
Etchmiadzin put a copy of their icon on their website, but it is not a very good copy:




http://www.armenianchurch.org/index.jsp?&lng=en#

Offline Theophania

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #79 on: June 23, 2015, 10:46:30 PM »
Etchmiadzin put a copy of their icon on their website, but it is not a very good copy:




http://www.armenianchurch.org/index.jsp?&lng=en#

I don't like the pastels...  :-\
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #80 on: June 23, 2015, 10:48:02 PM »
I think the picture of the icon is too "faded" for us to really be able to tell what the colors really are like.  But, yeah, the colors seem to be lighter than in the other icon. 

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Offline Salpy

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Re: Canonization of Genocide Martyrs to take place before April 24
« Reply #82 on: December 27, 2015, 08:12:44 PM »
From the website of the Eastern Diocese of the US, here is a copy of the icon from Etchmiadzin:



http://www.armenianchurch-ed.net/wpblog/2015/10/icon-of-holy-martyrs-of-the-armenian-genocide/