OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 28, 2014, 10:57:43 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Standing during Divine Liturgy  (Read 13762 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Marat
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic reinvestigating the Orthodox Church
Posts: 383


« on: December 30, 2005, 10:41:37 AM »

Yesterday I managed to screw my back up pretty badly. I'm having a lot of trouble standing and walking. Judging from the past when this has happened, I will not be better before Sunday. Which bring me to my question. There is no way I'll be able to stand throughout the Divine Liturgy this Sunday. I could skip it, but I don't want to. I'm capable of sitting and occassionally standing. How bad is it to sit through the services? And are there particular parts I should definitely stand for? Would it be better if I just didn't go this week? I don't want to be disrespectful.
Logged
ania
Life according to Abe Simpson:
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,097



« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2005, 10:52:47 AM »

Go to Church!!!
There is nothing at all wrong with sitting if you are in pain.  I've sprained ankles, had slipped disks, blown out knees.  (I'm a bit accident prone).  If you are capable of getting there, (unless it hurts too much to drive, walk, bike, whatever), sit with a clean conscience. 
You should try to stand for certain parts of the service though, like the gospel, Mercy of Peace, Our Father, and of course when they bring out the chalice for Communion, but feel free to sit once Communion has started.
If your uncertain, call your priest.
Logged

Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,956


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2005, 10:53:21 AM »

It is better for you to be present in the convocation of the community that is Communion (nifty, eh?) and sitting, than to be absent because you can't stand.  And I'm sure that this is the advice your priest/spiritual father/whomever would give to you.  Go and pray!
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
aurelia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 588


« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2005, 10:56:41 AM »

We have a few people, both young, old, pregnant, that canot stand during the whole service.  They go for as long as they feel comfortable, then sit.  Same with the kneeling...if they can't get down all the way they sort of perch on the edge of the pew.  Nobody thinks they are disrespecting anyone.  At least they are there!
Logged
Marat
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic reinvestigating the Orthodox Church
Posts: 383


« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2005, 11:05:44 AM »

We have a few people, both young, old, pregnant, that canot stand during the whole service.  They go for as long as they feel comfortable, then sit.  Same with the kneeling...if they can't get down all the way they sort of perch on the edge of the pew.  Nobody thinks they are disrespecting anyone.  At least they are there!

I had wondered about the kneeling. I could get down, but getting back up would be rather difficult, and I'm afraid it would be attention getting. That is the last thing I'd want.

Thanks for the responses. I probably will go, since I really want to. I just didn't want to be disprespecful. I must admit I'm concerned also about what others might think. I appear to be in good health (other than when I'm walking) and don't want to feel judged or looked down on.
Logged
aurelia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 588


« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2005, 11:08:03 AM »

don't want to feel judged or looked down on.

You know what, at the coffee hour, mention to someone about your difficulty, everyone will know by next week.  So no prob there.  Or if you dont want to do that, don't worry, it really isnt their business, you are doing the best you can.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,956


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2005, 11:09:45 AM »

I wouldn't worry about what others are thinking as long as you aren't trying to be controversial or whatnot (which you aren't)...
Remember, if your heart is in the right place, then it will be as if your spirit is kneeling/standing/whatnot.

And I hope your back heals soon!  Lord, have mercy on your servant!
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Marat
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic reinvestigating the Orthodox Church
Posts: 383


« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2005, 11:25:49 AM »

don't want to feel judged or looked down on.

You know what, at the coffee hour, mention to someone about your difficulty, everyone will know by next week.  So no prob there. 

LOL.. thanks kinda funny. Funny because it is most probably true.
Logged
JoeS
(aka StMarkEofE)
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,122


Global Warming Enthusiast.


« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2005, 12:07:05 PM »

It is better for you to be present in the convocation of the community that is Communion (nifty, eh?) and sitting, than to be absent because you can't stand.ÂÂ  And I'm sure that this is the advice your priest/spiritual father/whomever would give to you.ÂÂ  Go and pray!

We have some who because of medical reasons have to sit during the Liturgy.  And sitting is one posture of prayer.  I would not miss Liturgy if I could not stand up.  Sitting is not irreverant if one can not do the standing. 

JoeS
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,956


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2005, 12:18:30 PM »

We have some who because of medical reasons have to sit during the Liturgy.  And sitting is one posture of prayer.  I would not miss Liturgy if I could not stand up.  Sitting is not irreverant if one can not do the standing.     

Exactly!  It falls under the same lines of those who cannot absolutely fast (i.e. not eat) before communion for medical reasons; we have a gentleman at our church who must eat breakfast with his medicine first thing, or else he will pass out in Liturgy (which he has done 2 or 3 times)... Father told him to eat his breakfast and still receive (which he has a hard time with) - it's not out of disresepct that he's eating!
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027



« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2006, 02:15:35 AM »

I attended a parish out of town that sat for the Litanies and some knelt at time.ÂÂ  Yes, it was an Orthodox Church.ÂÂ  I stood almost the whole time, and no one looked at me funny.ÂÂ  I did sit a few times, epistle, homily, once or twice when they did.ÂÂ  I was up front by myself and there really wasn't many people around me.
No one looked at me funny when I stood, even when they knelt.ÂÂ I got used to not kneeling, as at the parish I attend we stand except for the homily, so I did what I was used to and no one minded. I have a bad back, and sometimes I have to sit at Liturgy and no one looks at me.ÂÂ  I just make sure to stand during the Communion, you know use common sense and stand at the important parts if you can.ÂÂ  
« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 02:17:25 AM by username! » Logged

Psalti Boy
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Don't need one
Posts: 842



« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2006, 02:10:30 AM »

Yesterday I managed to screw my back up pretty badly. I'm having a lot of trouble standing and walking. Judging from the past when this has happened, I will not be better before Sunday. Which bring me to my question. There is no way I'll be able to stand throughout the Divine Liturgy this Sunday. I could skip it, but I don't want to. I'm capable of sitting and occassionally standing. How bad is it to sit through the services? And are there particular parts I should definitely stand for? Would it be better if I just didn't go this week? I don't want to be disrespectful.

I was in a motor vehicle accident 14 months ago, got rear ended by a car going 40 mph while I was stopped.  Major whiplash in my back and neck and vitreous detachments in both my retinas.  I go to services since then and stand when I can and sit when I can't.  I was eventually forced to retire early.  My priest says it's better to be here and do what you are able to do than not be here at all.  By now everyone knows about it.  In time everyone will know about your injury.  God knows what you are able to do and that's all that matters.  I wish you a speedier recovery than mine.
Logged
aserb
asinner
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese
Posts: 1,188


« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2006, 11:07:26 AM »

Sit.  NO guilt dude!  There are some converts to Orthodoxy that try to prove there Orthodoxness by standing erect throughout. It's not about the standing. Its about your heart.
Logged

Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2006, 03:48:35 PM »

Quote
!  There are some converts to Orthodoxy that try to prove there Orthodoxness by standing erect throughout

Why are you obsessed with being highly critical of converts?  Perhaps you should attend a normal Orthodox parish - like mine.  We only have people at my parish - some have Russian last names, some Greek last names, some Romanian names, pluse some British, Scottish and even a Polish one.  I guess we don't feel the need to create false divisions...
Logged
Timos
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 856



« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2006, 04:13:59 PM »

a normal parish? What do you mean by that? So an ethnic parish is not 'normal'- how come?

I don't think a serb meant what he wrote in a negative way. I know some converts who are really good Orthodox ppl @ heart, they read the Bible and the synaxarion a lot and are kind. But there are also the extremist converts (just as there are extremist ethnics) who follow the rules exactly and believe they have failed otherwise.
Logged
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2006, 04:28:52 PM »

Where did I say an ethnic parish isn't normal?  By normal I mean there isn't this need to group people as Russians, Non-Russian ethnic Orthodox or converts at my parish.  People are just people.  People are Orthodox Christians - not converts or craddle.

The whole idea of a "crazy convert" is simply ridiculous - there are plenty of craddle Orthodox that act identically to "crazy converts."  So why not just call the whole group as one, rather than singling out the converts?  Or maybe if the ethnic enclaves would welcome converts as fellow Orthodox Christians, no different than themselves, rather than always treating them as outsideres they wouldn't become "crazy converts"....
Logged
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2006, 04:39:21 PM »

Where did I say an ethnic parish isn't normal?ÂÂ  By normal I mean there isn't this need to group people as Russians, Non-Russian ethnic Orthodox or converts at my parish.ÂÂ  People are just people.ÂÂ  People are Orthodox Christians - not converts or craddle.

The whole idea of a "crazy convert" is simply ridiculous - there are plenty of craddle Orthodox that act identically to "crazy converts."ÂÂ  So why not just call the whole group as one, rather than singling out the converts?ÂÂ  Or maybe if the ethnic enclaves would welcome converts as fellow Orthodox Christians, no different than themselves, rather than always treating them as outsideres they wouldn't become "crazy converts"....

Personally I don't think aserb was being negative either...

Also, as a "cradle" Orthodox, I never distinguished between cradle or convert, until I came to this site (which I think is probably a majority convert).  I think Orthodox, is Orthodox.  Lets not try to judge one another.
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2006, 07:00:51 PM »

Quote
Personally I don't think aserb was being negative either...

Obviously he has some axe to grind with converts.  Below is the one I was able to quickly locate, but I do know he has posted more post in the same spirit of charity.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=7794.msg101496#msg101496

The reason I suggested he attend a parish like mine is because we are a mixed group and the parish doesn't fall under the stereotype of neither an ethnic parish nor a convert parish.  There need not be such divisions.  If aserb has such strong feelings that "You Evangelical converts are a piece of work !" I wonder how he feels about parishes such as the Dormition of the Theotokos in the Dalles, Oregon (http://www.dormitionorthodoxchurch.org/index.aspx) or the monasteries Bishop Jovan brought under his omniphoron - are they just pieces of work? 
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2006, 07:27:02 PM »

aserb made a good and perfectly valid point, while both ethnic Orthodox Christians and Converts are susceptible to pietism and fundamentalism, it does seem to plague the convert community in disproportionate numbers for various reasons. That's not to say all converts are like that and that is not what aserb is claiming, but that, quote, 'SOME,' converts to Orthodoxy are like that both a true and valid point.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2006, 07:45:55 PM »

Saying that some converts.... is just as absurd as saying some people with black hair are susceptible to that which was mentioned.  And if you want to say converts are more prone to be fundamentalists - let's look at the major schimatic groups of the last hundred years:

Old Calendarist Churches in Romania and Greece (and later Bulgaria) - no converts here

HTM/HOCNA group- the bishops and abbot of the monastery at that time were all Greeks

ROAC - All Russians in the leadership roles here

Dormition Skete, CO - Arabs here

ROCiE - more Russians here

The Platina monastery - left the church only after the death of the convert Hieromonk while under the sole leadership of their Russian hieromonk.  Was later recieved back into the church because of the converts in the brotherhood. 

Yeah, I definetly see a trend here.  Those CRAZY CONVERTS! 

Logged
aserb
asinner
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese
Posts: 1,188


« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2006, 08:09:33 PM »

OK Enough, sorry if I ruffled feathers. By the way, sorry SouthSerb, I attend a mixed Antiochian Parish (Serbs, Russians, Arabs, Scots, Germans, WASP's even a Jewish person). This where I first saw converts acting in an ultra orthodox fashion, standing till they fainted, checking ingredients on labels to make sure there was no dairy products in their cookies during the fast, praying every prayer and prostrating ad infinitum. In their defense they propbably are still stuck in the legalism that they learned in the former chirch homes. My point is it is about where your heart is. Ya I do have an axe to grind. Why. Don't convert to Orthodoxy and then act like the expert or the more pious than those who are traditionally Orthodox and who came from families that passed the torch of orthodoxy down through the ages.
Logged

Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!
Timos
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 856



« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2006, 08:16:33 PM »

And yet its somehow ok for converts to attack our greek/russian churches for being to Hellenistic, being too Slavic...making fun of our traditions, our language(s). umm, double standard... Sure we do have problems in our parishes. I'm not saying its ok for ethnics to isolate converts. Thats wrong, its a sin ( clearly goes against "Love your neighbour") but that doesn't mean its ok for converts to attack our parishes.

Remember couple months ago, the numerous posts on "eww, what do I do about these horrible Greeks and their greekness? It's making me sick. I need to be immersed in white anglo-saxon culture to survive in Orthodoxy" type of posts.

I like converts and their parishes. I find some of their services a little to my distaste (such as using byzantine, then using slavic chant, and then switching over to American Orthodox composers' music, and how its somewhat watered down) but  that does not mean I go around and bash them or their services (like I just did to prove a point).
Logged
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2006, 10:18:03 PM »

OK Enough, sorry if I ruffled feathers. By the way, sorry SouthSerb, I attend a mixed Antiochian Parish (Serbs, Russians, Arabs, Scots, Germans, WASP's even a Jewish person). This where I first saw converts acting in an ultra orthodox fashion, standing till they fainted, checking ingredients on labels to make sure there was no dairy products in their cookies during the fast, praying every prayer and prostrating ad infinitum. In their defense they propbably are still stuck in the legalism that they learned in the former chirch homes. My point is it is about where your heart is. Ya I do have an axe to grind. Why. Don't convert to Orthodoxy and then act like the expert or the more pious than those who are traditionally Orthodox and who came from families that passed the torch of orthodoxy down through the ages.

aserb,

    Yes, I knew you belonged to a mixed Antiochian Parish, and I also know that you are far from mean spirited or intent on demonizing an entire group (like converts). 

(i just wrote about 5 paragraphs and decided to erase them for being entirely irrelevant, and sufficient to warn myself for "thread hijacking")!
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: refuse
Posts: 29,318



« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2006, 10:47:44 PM »

I can really feel the love here.
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2006, 10:49:36 PM »

I can really feel the love here.

Well considering the Love, Kindness, and Understanding that we've all put into our discussions of this topic in the past, would you expect anything different? Wink
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
admiralnick
Cardinal, Editor for Photogalleries
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,880


« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2006, 11:19:10 PM »

*opens mouth*.......... *thinks*.......  *closes mouth*.......

Phew! That was close.
Logged

The ORIGINAL: "NULL"
aserb
asinner
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese
Posts: 1,188


« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2006, 01:58:47 AM »

Asterikos:

My original intent in writing to Marat was to assure him that it was OK to sit during liturgy, especially if you have a medical condition and to not let others judge you wrongly. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt and believe that his heart is in the right place during liturgy.  So my originnal reply was written from love and concern, even protectiveness, for my brother. i did not want him to feel guilt or fall off of the track of his path of Orthodoxy.

Also, I beleive that Siloun is concerned that maybe I am being overly harsh on converts to the Orthodox church and maybe I am.In a round about way his rebuke of me is a form of love. "Better the rebuke of a friend than the kisses of an enemy " (Somewhere in Proverbs).

Finally, and on a lighter note, i know that SouthSerb does not love me  Roll Eyes
Logged

Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2006, 02:09:36 AM »

aserb, of the super-Orthodox types you mention I have seen the same attitudes in Russians (in American parishes), some Greeks in America (but IME Greeks don't seem to think standing is such a big deal as Russians do) and I saw a great deal of such during my time on the Holy Mountain - again primarily from ethnic/craddle Orthodox.  Hence why your statement is utterly absurd to say it is a convert issue.  But I won't forget to day my daily prayer of aserb, "I thank Thee O Lord for not making me like one of those crazy converts."
Logged
Zoe
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 450



« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2006, 02:39:05 AM »

"I thank Thee O Lord for not making me like one of those crazy converts."

Hahahaha.
Logged

NI!!!!!!
Marat
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic reinvestigating the Orthodox Church
Posts: 383


« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2006, 02:41:19 AM »

Asterikos:

My original intent in writing to Marat was to assure him that it was OK to sit during liturgy, especially if you have a medical condition and to not let others judge you wrongly. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt and believe that his heart is in the right place during liturgy.  So my originnal reply was written from love and concern, even protectiveness, for my brother. i did not want him to feel guilt or fall off of the track of his path of Orthodoxy.

Also, I beleive that Siloun is concerned that maybe I am being overly harsh on converts to the Orthodox church and maybe I am.In a round about way his rebuke of me is a form of love. "Better the rebuke of a friend than the kisses of an enemy " (Somewhere in Proverbs).

Finally, and on a lighter note, i know that SouthSerb does not love me  Roll Eyes

I took it the way you meant it. I asked only because I'm fairly new, and just felt weird about it. I thought I'd ask opinions, and I got them. I do appreciate the feedback. In my mind, others should understand, but it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong.  Smiley
Logged
spedrson
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 34


« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2006, 08:00:51 AM »

OK Enough, sorry if I ruffled feathers. By the way, sorry SouthSerb, I attend a mixed Antiochian Parish (Serbs, Russians, Arabs, Scots, Germans, WASP's even a Jewish person). This where I first saw converts acting in an ultra orthodox fashion, standing till they fainted, checking ingredients on labels to make sure there was no dairy products in their cookies during the fast, praying every prayer and prostrating ad infinitum. In their defense they propbably are still stuck in the legalism that they learned in the former chirch homes. My point is it is about where your heart is. Ya I do have an axe to grind. Why. Don't convert to Orthodoxy and then act like the expert or the more pious than those who are traditionally Orthodox and who came from families that passed the torch of orthodoxy down through the ages.

I normally just lurk around here, but I hope it's OK to go back and respond to this comment. I'm neither cradle nor convert Orthodox, but I guess one day I'd like to be a convert, so I probably identify more with that group. I think I understand a lot of the issues related to the overzealousness of converts, and I try to be sensitive to them. But I think something needs to be said here about the specific things aserb brings up. I suppose standing until one faints is a genuine problem; although, if you're normally OK with standing, and you don't know exactly when it's appropriate to sit and when it's appropriate to stand, it does make things a bit awkward when you feel like you probably ought to sit for a while but you don't want to offend anyone. Plus, my experience is that sometimes you don't know how long a holiday service is going to go on, so you might keep thinking that it must be almost over, until your legs give out.

For most of the other things, I think at least some of it can be attributed to the learning process. Personally, when I visit an Orthodox service, I prostrate when everyone else does (or at least a significant number). I happen to like the fact that Orthodoxy includes prostration (whereas the Evangelical church I attend seems to have no understanding of posture in worship), so I appreciate the opportunities I get. Of course, when I'm praying at home, I don't have a crowd to follow, so I've read various guides, and I pretty much try to prostrate or bow or cross myself whenever it seems like I'm supposed to. Maybe someday someone will set me straight, but right now I just do the best I can. I do pray a lot, but again this is partly a matter of ignorance--that I don't have much feel for which prayers to pray and which ones to skip--and partly because I recognize that I'm in a learning process. I come from a "non-liturgical" background, and I have yet to internalize the language of Orthodox prayer. So among other things, praying a lot of Orthodox prayers is training my mind to think in the appropriate conceptual framework.

Finally, on the issue of checking ingredients. I guess this was the item that really jumped out at me. It seems that a cradle Orthodox person would have grown up familiar with a stock list of foods that could be eaten while fasting. For someone without that kind of background, you have to learn somehow what is and isn't appropriate. I suppose one way to do that would be to move in with an Orhtodox family and do what they do, but who has that opportunity? So if I see that I'm not supposed to eat dairy, it's only natural for me to check the ingredients to learn what does and doesn't have it. And it happens that I've been quite surprised on several occasions, which only confirms that it was better not to assume I already knew. Actually, one trick I've picked up is to check the hesher--the mark that says if food is kosher--since it will normally identify when something has dairy. It's quicker and easier than checking the ingredients (if it's there), although I also notice that because of dairy allergies and intolerances, these items are often highlighted in the list. But my point is that it's a learning process. I'm sure after I've been fasting for a few years I won't need to do it anymore, because I'll have my set foods that I know are OK. But I don't see why making the effort to learn makes a person legalistic or overzealous. I'm not going to go around telling Orthodox people they shouldn't eat certain things--I suppose that could be legalistic. But for the sake of my own conscience, this just happens to be the effort I've chosen to make.

Trevor
Logged

أبوئيّÙâ€
aserb
asinner
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese
Posts: 1,188


« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2006, 08:59:48 AM »

Quote
But I don't see why making the effort to learn makes a person legalistic or overzealous. I'm not going to go around telling Orthodox people they shouldn't eat certain things--I suppose that could be legalistic. But for the sake of my own conscience, this just happens to be the effort I've chosen to make.

Trevor

Trevor, your points are well taken. I want to comment on the food part. Many Orthodox, cradle included, ignore the fasts. This is to the other extreme. Yet, for some reason, I do not find these people annoying. Conversely, many Orthodox keep a strict regiment in the fasts. This I find annoying when they in a round about way proclaim it by reading labels in your prescence and boast. These are my observations where I am. Maybe it is different elsewhere. It is important to keep the fast with your heart, this includes prayer and almsgiving as well. Some people get hung up on food. Orthodoxy is not about legalism. Fasting rules are guidelines. Many have a personalized fast in consultation with their priest and with his blessing. For instance, in my parish, pregnant women are usually exempted by the priest as are people with certain medical conditions such as diabetics. They are not to be condemned. It is about your heart attitude. This is what  I am trying to convey. Furthermore, we lay people are not monastics. We struggle in a diverse, secular world. Yet, there are those lay persons who have been to the Holy Mountain and in their arrogance have all the answers. I guess we should suffer with them as we are all on this journey together, and pray  Undecided.  Thanks Trevor for the comments. Please come back

Dan
Logged

Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!
spedrson
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 34


« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2006, 03:05:20 PM »

This I find annoying when they in a round about way proclaim it by reading labels in your prescence and boast. These are my observations where I am. Maybe it is different elsewhere. It is important to keep the fast with your heart, this includes prayer and almsgiving as well. Some people get hung up on food. Orthodoxy is not about legalism. Fasting rules are guidelines. Many have a personalized fast in consultation with their priest and with his blessing. For instance, in my parish, pregnant women are usually exempted by the priest as are people with certain medical conditions such as diabetics. They are not to be condemned. It is about your heart attitude. This is what  I am trying to convey. Furthermore, we lay people are not monastics. We struggle in a diverse, secular world. Yet, there are those lay persons who have been to the Holy Mountain and in their arrogance have all the answers. I guess we should suffer with them as we are all on this journey together, and pray  Undecided.  Thanks Trevor for the comments. Please come back

Dan

I didn't realize I'd gone anywhere :-) Actually, I just got back from visiting a Ukranian Christmas service. My wife isn't interested in Orthodoxy, so I chose to spend Western Christmas with my family. I normally visit the OCA parish nearby or the Antiochian parish that a friend introduced me to. I figured this would be a good opportunity to visit a Ukranian service, a cathedral, and an Orthodox Christmas service, all at once. Anyway, I understand your point about the heart attitude. On the other hand, my wife would say the heart attitude is pretty much everything. (Not that she doesn't think external behavior is important, but when it comes to things like forms of worship.) I'm still trying to find a balance somewhere in the middle. I personally try to avoid talking about fasting, so that I don't seem like I'm bragging. I know I often get a lot out of it (although I'm discovering that I get much more out of it when I'm attending Orthodox services), but I seem to have a weird metabolism. Unless I go without food or drink for a couple of days, I hardly even notice the difference. Being scrupulous about what I eat helps give it more meaning. On the other hand, because I am mostly surrounded by non-Orthodox, I do make plenty of exceptions to accommodate various relationships.

It's sort of the same thing with standing, I guess. I don't think anyone at the Evangelical church I attend really pays much attention to when it would be most meaningful to stand. It frustrates me, and it always has. I like the idea of standing for pretty much the whole service, although I'm content to go along with whatever the group seems to be doing. (They did a lot more sitting in this service today than I remember in other Orthodox services I've visited.) And I prefer standing to sitting in general (even at home, I often read standing up), so given the choice, I feel more reverent if I stand the whole time. I also like prostration. As a fan of the Old Testament, I think it should be obvious that prostration is integral to worship. I'm sure my excitement for some of these things will calm down over time, but I guess I can understand why a lot of converts try to do everything.

Trevor
Logged

أبوئيّÙâ€
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,180


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2006, 07:50:22 PM »

Saying that some converts.... is just as absurd as saying some people with black hair are susceptible to that which was mentioned.  And if you want to say converts are more prone to be fundamentalists....

It's not absurd at all.  Quite often they are more prone to wander down the garden path.  Aserb and GIC have a valid point.  I am a convert myself.  After I converted I spent a few months in a monastic setting where the abbot proceeded to beat the protestant **** out of me.  And I thank God that he did.  It was an extremely valuable experience.   I think I might otherwise have proven to be fruitful soil for fundamentalist propaganda.    I have to say that I have noticed an attitude among converts sometimes, wherein they think that they know everything.   They might know things intellectually, but they have often not interiorized their knowledge; they have not developed an Orthodox consciousness.  This can take many years, and you have to be open to it.  As one poster has mentioned, many western people join the Church and then commence to impose their exacting WESTERN  standards on it, assuming that because they have been chrismated and gone to communion and confession that everything that they do and think is now Orthodox.  Well, it isn't.  They bring their protestant and Latin baggage with them without being aware of it.  It can be quite painful and require quite a lot of humility to excise this baggage.

On the other hand, I have also met cradle Orthodox who are really dangerously ignorant about the faith, and assume that they know everything just by virtue of their family lineage, which is also pure bunk.  Both standpoints can really put one in trouble.  A little bit of (genuine) humility sure goes a long way.

Bob James
« Last Edit: January 07, 2006, 07:51:09 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2006, 08:20:33 PM »

*sigh*

"Super-correctness" (to use the terminology of Fr. Seraphim Rose) is not a convert thing, nor is over laxity and ignorance solely a cradle thing.  Spend some time in Greece - where that are basicly no converts (some monasteries may have a handful) and you will notice there is just a much of a super-correctness problem as among convert groups in the United States.  To approach it as if it were a convert only, or predominatly convert problem is as reckless and spiritually dangerous as saying AIDS is simply an homosexual problem.
Logged
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2006, 11:39:59 PM »

On the other hand, I have also met cradle Orthodox who are really dangerously ignorant about the faith, and assume that they know everything just by virtue of their family lineage, which is also pure bunk.ÂÂ  Both standpoints can really put one in trouble.ÂÂ  A little bit of (genuine) humility sure goes a long way.

I have seen this more often than is probably healthy.  Dustin once explained "folkodoxy" to me (as opposed to Orthodoxy, which I think is probably more common at cradle parishes.
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,180


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2006, 01:19:58 AM »

 Cheesy"Folkodoxy".  Love it!  That's very good.  Cheesy  LOL.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2006, 01:21:28 AM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
aserb
asinner
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese
Posts: 1,188


« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2006, 09:50:41 AM »

OK, Can I out in a good word for converts. Silouan, are you paying attention?  The insurgence of converts has, in many cases, breathed new life into old parishes and, to some extent, challenged the cradle Orthodox to take the beliefs that they have seriously. I was away from the Orthodox church for many years and, to be honest, when I found out that evangelicals were converting to Orthodoxy, jealous. It was my faith. Where and who are these upstarts. It challenged me to take my faith seriously. I can honestly say that today I know more about my faith than I ever did as a child or young adult.
Logged

Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!
Marat
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic reinvestigating the Orthodox Church
Posts: 383


« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2006, 06:47:08 PM »

Well, something happened yesterday on this very topic. Jlerms, if you were there yesterday and saw this, please comment.

Early on during Orthros, there were only maybe ten of us there, including what looked like two new people. I don't know everyone, but they seemed liked visitors, in that they didn't seem to know what all to do. They were sitting, taking everything in. From time to time the priest will motion with his hands either to stand, or to sit if you want. During Orthros, he motioned for us to stand. Everyone was standing anyway, other than the new couple, and one person with a child. The one with the child stood up right away. The couple didn't know what the hand motions where, so kept on as they were. The priest made bigger hand motions. They still sat. He finally started mouthing STAND UP along with the hand motions. They finally got the subtle hint, and stood. The also tore out of the church a few minutes later. I think they were mortified by being singled out for sitting.

I'm not sure what else to say. I was concerned about being reverent and acting proper. I never thought I'd see something like this where it was enforced. What do you all think about this? Have you ever seen anything like this at your parish?
Logged
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,180


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2006, 06:58:59 PM »

OK, Can I out in a good word for converts. Silouan, are you paying attention?  The insurgence of converts has, in many cases, breathed new life into old parishes and, to some extent, challenged the cradle Orthodox to take the beliefs that they have seriously. I was away from the Orthodox church for many years and, to be honest, when I found out that evangelicals were converting to Orthodoxy, jealous. It was my faith. Where and who are these upstarts. It challenged me to take my faith seriously. I can honestly say that today I know more about my faith than I ever did as a child or young adult.

I think these points are very interesting and well-taken, Aserb. 

Bob James
Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,180


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2006, 07:07:36 PM »

I'm not sure what else to say. I was concerned about being reverent and acting proper. I never thought I'd see something like this where it was enforced. What do you all think about this? Have you ever seen anything like this at your parish?

I think that standing at appropriate times should be enforced, when we are talking about people who know the parish.  When it comes to visitors, IMHO it is a grave pastoral error to insist that they follow conventions  that they know nothing about. 

Of course, the best thing is to not have pews.  They encourage people to be passive spectators instead of participants, restrict freedom, make it impossible to pray and other negative things.  They are even considered an innovation in the West, where they didn't appear until the high middle ages.  But I  digress, as  this is a completely different topic. 

I have seen parishes where encouraging people to sit and stand at the appropriate times seems to work for the parishes concerned. 

James Bob
« Last Edit: January 09, 2006, 07:08:54 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Thomas
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,759



« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2006, 11:05:15 PM »

I attended a glorious Hierarchal Divine Liturgy on Saturday in Austin. It was beautiful and moving. The only thing that  put a damper on the service was the Pews.  I had three of my Grandsons with me and my wife.  Now our Parish has no pews and we have become quite attached to the freedom that it provides us to move around with the grandchildren and sit on the benches around the wall when necessary.  Saturday, our attention to the Liturgy was diverted by our 4 and 5 year old grandsons trying to get where they could see the Liturgy. In our parish without pews we would have simply moved to a sight line they could see from, not so with the confinement of the Pews.  My littlest grandson  was actually scared of the kneelers used at the  Epikelisis, he was used to the full metania and was confused as to what to do.

All in all, the service was done standing as is appropriate for a Dinvine Liturgy however the pews really limited the participation by those attending with full reverences, metanias, etc.  It made me thankful that we don't have pews at our home parish. Both parishes are in the Antiochian Archdiocese, doing the same liturgy, and under the same Bishop, yet there was a difference that I could feel in our worship.


In Christ,
Thomas
Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
Marat
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic reinvestigating the Orthodox Church
Posts: 383


« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2006, 12:34:17 AM »

I attended a glorious Hierarchal Divine Liturgy on Saturday in Austin. It was beautiful and moving. The only thing that  put a damper on the service was the Pews.  I had three of my Grandsons with me and my wife.  Now our Parish has no pews and we have become quite attached to the freedom that it provides us to move around with the grandchildren and sit on the benches around the wall when necessary.  Saturday, our attention to the Liturgy was diverted by our 4 and 5 year old grandsons trying to get where they could see the Liturgy. In our parish without pews we would have simply moved to a sight line they could see from, not so with the confinement of the Pews.  My littlest grandson  was actually scared of the kneelers used at the  Epikelisis, he was used to the full metania and was confused as to what to do.

All in all, the service was done standing as is appropriate for a Dinvine Liturgy however the pews really limited the participation by those attending with full reverences, metanias, etc.  It made me thankful that we don't have pews at our home parish. Both parishes are in the Antiochian Archdiocese, doing the same liturgy, and under the same Bishop, yet there was a difference that I could feel in our worship.


In Christ,
Thomas

Was this St. Elias? Just curious.
Logged
Meekle
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 316

Meekle of Rohan, Dunadan Bard of the Riddermark


WWW
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2006, 05:21:46 AM »

MAUSOC* convention will take place shortly...

*Movement Against Unnecessary Sitting in Orthodox Churches
Logged
aurelia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 588


« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2006, 01:17:12 PM »

Besides, it really is the best way to keep people from falling asleep during the service.  Wink

I DO know that after my experience with Easter last year, this year I am going to be doing some strength training for my legs, by the end of the week I felt like I'd run a marathon!

Logged
Tags: pews standing posture 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.136 seconds with 71 queries.