Author Topic: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?  (Read 2690 times)

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Offline Jude1:3

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The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« on: June 11, 2015, 02:44:08 PM »
      Hi Everyone,
 
  I wanted to ask all of The Orthodox on this site what your opinions of John Wycliffe are. From the little I've researched he had a very high view of the Eastern Church.

   He was responsible for the first english translation of the Bible made from the Latin Vulgate in 1382 A.D.

    Do the Orthodox have a positive view of him in general ?

     Thank you.







https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpINreHIDoY

 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 02:51:45 PM by Jude1:3 »

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2015, 02:51:53 PM »
One of the greatest hip hop producers of the 90s and early 2000s, but garbage as an MC.  Oh wait, that's Wyclef Jean!

I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Jude1:3

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2015, 02:52:33 PM »
One of the greatest hip hop producers of the 90s and early 2000s, but garbage as an MC.  Oh wait, that's Wyclef Jean!




 LOLZ

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2015, 02:54:47 PM »
Well, considering he did not believe in a visible Catholic Church and was fairly anti-clerical, I would imagine that would put him at odds with Orthodoxy right there.
God bless!

Offline Jude1:3

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2015, 02:56:32 PM »
Well, considering he did not believe in a visible Catholic Church and was fairly anti-clerical, I would imagine that would put him at odds with Orthodoxy right there.


 Darn   :-\
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 02:57:18 PM by Jude1:3 »

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2015, 02:58:15 PM »
Why? Do you have an attachment to John Wycliffe?
God bless!

Offline Jude1:3

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2015, 03:00:27 PM »
Why? Do you have an attachment to John Wycliffe?



   Well, mostly I think it's cool that he did the first english Bible translation and also that it's ridiculously old.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2015, 03:09:44 PM »
Other than his translation, he was an evident heretic from the looks of it. Far more so than Martin Luther. I have a positive view of Erasmus, but of the Reformers I generally don't have a positive view. They sort of destroyed Christianity...

The Lollards denied the very essence of the New Testament, the very Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 03:15:01 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Jude1:3

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2015, 03:24:03 PM »
  Thanks for the responses so far everyone.

Offline wgw

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2015, 08:30:04 PM »
I think John Wycliffe was simply lost because of poor catechesis by the Roman Church.  I think it would be very hard for a man of letters like Wycliffe, who had not benefotted from the spiritual formation and mystical experiences of someone like Thomas Aquinas, to be able to comprehend or appreciate the Roman Magisterium.

And let us not mince words: Rome was, in Wycliffe's age, both corrupt in her temporal affairs, and heretical, having voluntarily and of her own accord cut herself off from the Great Church.

Heresy begets heresy.  How can Roman errors not be expected to produce people like Wycliffe or Soccinius or the Waldensians or Lollards?  I draw a distinction between them however, and Luther, Calvin amd Cranmer, who had knowledge of Orthodoxy, even of our liturgical services, and who had real political power, but did not restore Orthodozy; in the case of Calvin and Cranmer furthermore they made a point of burning heretics* as a ahow of strength and theological competence.

*Calvin only wanted Servetus beheaded, but the council of Geneva decided a Reformed Calvinist interpretation of the auto da fe was in order.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2015, 08:33:39 PM »
By the way, as early Protestants fo, while I dont think we have much in common with Wycliffe, I do think that Czech Protestants loke Jan Hus,,the Moravians and the Utraquists represented an innate Czech desire to cast off the Latin Rite which had been forced on them and retuen to Orthodoxy, but they were not in a position, in terms of knowledge or politics, to male a complete return.  I would myself not be opposed to venerating Jan Hus as a martyred saint.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2015, 12:06:36 AM »
Jan Hus was influenced by Wycliffe.

Wycliffe's sacramentology was definitely influenced by controversies of the west in the middle ages, and the clash with what would later become premodern science.  Basically, he had views similar to Anglicans or Calvinists.

And like Calvin and Cranmer, he was fanatical about predestination.

But, a lot of what we know about Wycliffe was written by people that had an agenda.  He opposed the Papacy, so he made a lot of enemies.
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline wgw

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2015, 05:49:50 AM »
Indeed, Daedelus, I think the main contribution Wycliffe made was to embolden people to stand up to the Pope.

I suspect from what Ive read of him and the Lollards that his doctrines were similiar to those we know of the early Waldensians.  Now the Waldensians after finding refuge in Switzerland followimg the horrible nightmarish attrocity of the Piedmont Easter, one of the worst atrocities committed by the RCs, adopted a generic reformed faith, but their initial theology was very attractive and while I was contemplatinf where to fo adter leaving the UMC I considered embracing it amd finding a traditionalist denomination rhat would let me hold such a view (the Waldensians I believe are the main Protestant church in Italy, and there are several in a township on the East Coast of the US if memory serves).  However as I read rhe history of the early church I camw to realize rhe heresy of Donatism and that this was unwittingly baked into Waldensianism: rhe idea that any righteous Christian male can celebrate the sacramemts sounds appealing until you realize actually there aren't any in an abaolute sense, and there is no reliable way beyond what the Orthodox Church does for example to ensure morality on the psrt of clerics.  But I understand entirely why Peter Waldo had this view.

By the way, just as I consider Jan Hus to be worthy of glorification, I consider the martyred Waldensian men, women and children, 16,000 in number, worthy of glorification.  My view is that the root heresy was the Roman Catholic schism with the Orthodox, and all alleged heretics they killed, real or actual, after that heresy, were lost individuals attemptimg to find their way back to the Apostolic faith, but without a map or compass with which to do so.  Luther, Cranmer and Calvin on the other hand had the power to restore Orthodoxy but instead decided that it must also be corrupt, and so created novel interpretations of Christisnity we call Protestantism.  Fortunately later Protestants like the Scottish Non Jurors and John Wesley were more open to Orthodoxy and the idea of using Orthodox theological concepts to reform Anglicanism.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2015, 06:50:32 AM »
By rhe way, in the prior post I did not want to convey the idea that I regard everyone killed by the Catholics or Protestants for heresy as a potential Orthodox saint, however, I do believe that executing heretocs is wrong in all circumstances.  And I am inclined to consider as potential saints anyone killed by the RCs or any Protestant church for alleged heresy who appears to have been in search of Orthodoxy, between the Great Schism of 1054 and the Enlightenment, by which time the tide had shifted dramatically against Catholicism.  But this determination has to be made on a case by case basis, taking into account the age and theological literacy of the victim, and other factors.  For example, the execution of Michael Servetus was murder, but Servetus was not a saint; he had the intellectual means to find Orthodoxy but went in another direction entirely.  However he was a murder cictim, and I hope amd pray that God has forgiven him and had mercy on him.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline LBK

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2015, 07:14:23 AM »
And I am inclined to consider as potential saints anyone killed by the RCs or any Protestant church for alleged heresy who appears to have been in search of Orthodoxy, between the Great Schism of 1054 and the Enlightenment, by which time the tide had shifted dramatically against Catholicism. 

Wishful thinking or "what feels right" is no basis for glorification as Orthodox saints. It is one thing for an Orthodox to pray to God that He show mercy upon these people, but quite another to pray to them to intercede on our behalf before God.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Jude1:3

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2016, 03:52:25 AM »
   I have another question about John Wycliffe.  I read these quotes that are supposedely from him and I just wanted to know if anyone can verify that he really wrote these things. Thanks very much in advance:


 "the Greeks walk more according to the Holy Spirit than the Latins"

"the Church should be constituted "after the manner of the Greeks"

"the Greek had kept more perfectly the faith of Christ"


Workman, Herbert B., D.Lit., D.D. (1966). John Wyclif: A Study of the English Medieval Church. Two Volumes. Hamden, CT: Archon Books.
see: Volume 2., cf. pp. 99, 268.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2016, 07:35:54 AM »
And I am inclined to consider as potential saints anyone killed by the RCs or any Protestant church for alleged heresy who appears to have been in search of Orthodoxy, between the Great Schism of 1054 and the Enlightenment, by which time the tide had shifted dramatically against Catholicism. 

Wishful thinking or "what feels right" is no basis for glorification as Orthodox saints. It is one thing for an Orthodox to pray to God that He show mercy upon these people, but quite another to pray to them to intercede on our behalf before God.

He said potential, with a qualifier, and clarified the comment in the rest of the paragraph.  Nothing was mentioned about praying to anyone except God, either.  [deleted]
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 07:40:00 AM by Ainnir »
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2016, 01:48:47 PM »
Those quotes attributed to Wycliffe sound correct.

No reformer until the Tubingen Divines were in a position to interact with the Orthodox Church in a serious manner.  And reunion would have been problematic for political reasons, to say the least.

In many ways, the Orthodox did contribute to the Reformation.  The Textus Receptus of Erasmus was largely based on the Byzantine text, and Greeks in southern Italy brought knowledge of other works of antiquity and Church fathers that had been largely unknown before then.  The renewed understanding of repentance was only possible due to the re-acquainting with the original Greek text.  Wycliffe only had the Vulgate, and his views on soteriology were largely along medieval lines (penance and good works).  Wycliffe in many ways was far more like a medieval Augustinian.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 01:51:16 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2016, 01:57:29 PM »
Those quotes attributed to Wycliffe sound correct.

No reformer until the Tubingen Divines were in a position to interact with the Orthodox Church in a serious manner.  And reunion would have been problematic for political reasons, to say the least.

Not sure how much they would be considered reformers, but Hussites were communicating with the Orthodox and distributed translations of Orthodox polemical materials during the Council of Florence, particularly regarding communion in both kinds.

Cue now a couple blocks of text from wgw about how Jan Hus should be canonized, the peculiarities of liturgical custom in Prague, and why Bohemian foie gras is more delectable than that cultivated in Silesia.
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: The Orthodox's View on John Wycliffe ?
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2016, 09:40:50 PM »
BTW, Wycliffe was far from the only medieval critic of the papacy.  It's just he basically stirred up large numbers of the nobility against Rome by appealing to their purses.  He created the Lollard movement that made substantial contributions to the English reformation, one reason that iconoclasm was so widespread there, even though it had not initially been the impetus behind the reformation there.   It could also be why the Puritan streak of the English reformation stressed sanctification and moralism so much, this was in keeping with Wycliffe's medieval soteriology.  An acquaintance on another forum pointed out the same areas that were hotbeds of Lollardry were essentially the very same places that were Puritan hotbeds.  Whereas the established church under Elizabeth and James I was far more sacramental, even Lutheran, in tone at times, and this lead to clashes over blue laws and public morals .

Rome was trying to create one civilization out of disparate peoples, that's one reason things like Wycliffe happened.  A combination of power, convenience and necessity.  Hence the term "Christendom".  But that vision ran against the emerging nation-states of Europe.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 09:48:27 PM by Daedelus1138 »
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther