Megachurches close on Christmas since it's on a Sunday...

[Anastasios]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/06/churches.closed.christmas.ap/index.html

[Elisha]

Saw it here first.  Pretty lame. 

http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/showthread.php?t=69616

[Fr. George]

Wow.

[Searching]

Don't condemn too much, the Antichian mission in our area is not having a service that day either, they are just having a Christmas eve service.

[sdcheung]

Don't condemn too much, the Antichian mission in our area is not having a service that day either, they are just having a Christmas eve service.

Meh..it's only a "Mission" church..they can have Readers services

[arimethea]

From what I have been seeing from parish calendars and bulletins it seems like there are a lot of Orthodox parishes that will be having a midnight liturgy and nothing on Sunday morning.

[Silouan]

Can a priest that serves the vesperial Liturgy of St. Basil at midnight serve the liturgy of St. John Chrysostomos the next morning?  If not then I can understand.... but it should also be rememebered priests are human too - they suffer burnout, small mission priests are often working full time, plus being a fulltime priest... 


As for Dec. 25th anyway isn't that the feast of St. Herman, not the Nativity.....

[theoforos]

Can a priest that serves the vesperial Liturgy of St. Basil at midnight serve the liturgy of St. John Chrysostomos the next morning?ÂÂ  If not then I can understand.... but it should also be rememebered priests are human too - they suffer burnout, small mission priests are often working full time, plus being a fulltime priest...ÂÂ  


As for Dec. 25th anyway isn't that the feast of St. Herman, not the Nativity.....

I believe it's considered the same day, so he shouldn't. There's one Orthodox church in the metropolitan Helsinki area having matins and liturgy that starts at midnight and they don't have anything going on Dec. 25, while the other churches have great vespers or a vigil on Christmas Eve and a liturgy in the morning on Dec. 25. 

[Fr. George]

Don't condemn too much, the Antichian mission in our area is not having a service that day either, they are just having a Christmas eve service.     

But is that out of necessity, or out of convenience?  Are they sharing their priest with other churches?

[Fr. George]

Can a priest that serves the vesperial Liturgy of St. Basil at midnight serve the liturgy of St. John Chrysostomos the next morning?  If not then I can understand.... but it should also be rememebered priests are human too - they suffer burnout, small mission priests are often working full time, plus being a fulltime priest... 


As for Dec. 25th anyway isn't that the feast of St. Herman, not the Nativity.....   

The priest can serve if the bishop says they can, but the point is moot depending on the Liturgical tradition - for the Typikon of the Great Church (the standard for the churches in the EP) says that when Christmas falls on a Sunday you do Liturgy Saturday morning and Sunday morning, with Great Vespers Saturday Night and Great Hours Friday.  (Sorry, the Typikon online is only in Greek:)

Here is the page for December 23 (the forefeast), with the description of the celebration of the Royal Hours...
http://www.ec-patr.gr/gr/typikon/2005/2005-12-23.htm

Here is the page for December 24, which calls for the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom...
http://www.ec-patr.gr/gr/typikon/2005/2005-12-24.htm

and here is the page for December 25, which calls for Great Vespers the evening before, and Matins and Divine Liturgy of St. Basil for the morning of.
http://www.ec-patr.gr/gr/typikon/2005/2005-12-25.htm

[Searching]

Although the local Antiochian church is a mission, it does have it's own priest.  From what i understand from my visit last Sunday, there are about 60 people attending on a given Sunday.  The priest is unpaid, just gets a small housing allowance.  He is a wonderful person, and part of the reason I continue to want to keep attending even though my spouse doesn't.

They are having their Christmas eve service earlier than normal due to the large number of small children in the congregation.  I cannot remember the exact time, but I think 7:30 pm is when the service starts on 12/24

And please forgive me if I sounded obnoxious in my previous post.  I can see both sides of the issue.

Mike

[GiC]

As for Dec. 25th anyway isn't that the feast of St. Herman, not the Nativity.....

No, it's the feast of the nativity...on both calendars.

[BrotherAidan]

Did anyone see Eastern Orthodox Churches mentioned in that article?
We are invisible folks!
Just one more object lesson on the need for ONE American Orthodox Church.
Til then we are a backstream ethnic novelty.

[Anastasios]

It's not a problem if we do a midnight service and nothing on the day because it is a DL served in anticipation like on Pascha at midnight (or even earlier in some places).  The Protestants in this article don't have such a tradition, though; in all liturgical Protestant traditions that I know of, the Christmas eve service is distinct from the Christmas day service.  What they are doing is in effect saying "Well we served vespers so why do we need to do a liturgy?" and in one church, they said they were doing a service on Friday so people could go then instead! That's as bad as RC's in America moving the feast of Theophany to the nearest Sunday.

Anastasios

[Fr. George]

{TANGENT}

Did anyone see Eastern Orthodox Churches mentioned in that article?   

I would hope not - we shouldn't wish to get mentioned for not having Sunday services, and we shouldn't wish to get mentioned for comparison in the papers - because that will attract other comparisons that will not "go our way" in the eyes of the public.

We are invisible folks!   

No, we're not - we're just not a big enough group to make the media notice; if we had more political and/or social clout, then they'd write about us (no matter the numerical size of our congregations)

Just one more object lesson on the need for ONE American Orthodox Church.   

Ahhh - but we ARE one Church: One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.  If one would like to say otherwise, they are speaking heresy against the Body of Christ.  Just because there are different ecclesiastical jurisdictions doesn't mean the Church isn't still one.

I think that's a big problem I have with the whole "one jurisdiction" movement - I am in favor of one jurisdiction (because of the ecclesiological problems with the current situation), but the proponents who insist that we're not one church right now obviously don't know what "the Church" really is.

We are one Church - we would just like to streamline administration (which, by the way, they are trying to do through SCOBA... what people should really wish for in the future is that all the ministries of the various archdiocese and metropolises get absorbed into SCOBA - like OCMC and IOCC were - that way in 10 years we can honestly say that administratively all that would be left to be changed is the situation with the locations of the bishops and "who they answer to.")

Til then we are a backstream ethnic novelty.   

What is backstream?

{/TANGENT}

[Fr. George]

It's not a problem if we do a midnight service and nothing on the day because it is a DL served in anticipation like on Pascha at midnight (or even earlier in some places).   

True; though I wouldn't characterize the Pascha midnight Liturgy as being in anticipation - it was originally an all-night vigil; Vespers - Divine Liturgy - Paschal Vigil - Matins - Divine Liturgy (as was the case for Theophany and for Christmas).  So these midnight Liturgies were the culmination of a really long time of prayer and worship.  But you knew all this anyway.

[Elisha]

The priest can serve if the bishop says they can, but the point is moot depending on the Liturgical tradition - for the Typikon of the Great Church (the standard for the churches in the EP) says that when Christmas falls on a Sunday you do Liturgy Saturday morning and Sunday morning, with Great Vespers Saturday Night and Great Hours Friday.ÂÂ  (Sorry, the Typikon online is only in Greek:)

That's what my parish is doing.  Every few years, my priest tries to do the Vesperal Liturgy at 11ish to Midnight, but the old people complain, and so we switch it back to vespers w/ Great Compline on Christmas Eve in the early evening and Liturgy the next morning.

[BrotherAidan]

I agree Cleveland that we are one Church in reality and spiritually as well; but we give the APPEARANCE of being "different denominations" that all call themselves Orthodox.

BTW the part I meant being mentioned in, is where it said mainline Protestant denomiations have not cancelled Christmas morning services and the Roman Catholics expect their biggest attendance on Christmas morning Sunday. Some mention that Eastern Orhtodox churches have celebrated liturgy on Sunday every Sunday for 2000 years and will continue to do so would have been nice.

Backwater means obscure.

[Fr. George]

I agree Cleveland that we are one Church in reality and spiritually as well; but we give the APPEARANCE of being "different denominations" that all call themselves Orthodox.   

And there is indeed truth that we need to not have this appearance.

BTW the part I meant being mentioned in, is where it said mainline Protestant denomiations have not cancelled Christmas morning services and the Roman Catholics expect their biggest attendance on Christmas morning Sunday. Some mention that Eastern Orhtodox churches have celebrated liturgy on Sunday every Sunday for 2000 years and will continue to do so would have been nice.

Of course.

Backwater means obscure.   

That's what I thought.  Normally, I've heard "backwoods" or "backwards."

[Asteriktos]

I can't recall ever attending an Orthodox Church that was open Christmas morning, but then I haven't attended many parishes, and my memory is not the best. I figured that, according to liturgical time, 11PM or Midnight (or even earlier) is just as much "Christmas day" as 9AM or 10AM on the actual day. Maybe it's a peculiarity and there are some issues with it, but I've never seen it thrown out as proof that Jurisdiction X is modernistic yet, so apparently it can't be too bad (I simply can't believe that it fell below the radar of the heresy hunters). Our family actually opens our presents shortly after midnight, or whenever we get home in the early morning.

[Elisha]

Can one of you seminarians tell us what the typikon/rubrics say?  Both Greek and Slavic versions please.

[JoeS]

Megachurches close on Christmas since it's on a Sunday...

Sounds Oxymoronish to me.

[sdcheung]

Nativity and Theophany

[a] If the Feast falls on a Day other than Sunday and Monday:

On The Paramony:
Evening Aggregate: Ninth Hour — Vespers — Small Complines;
Dawn Aggregate: Midnight Office — Orthros (Matins) — First Hour;
Midday Aggregate: Great Hours (Royal Hours) [1st Hour, 3rd Hour, 6th Hour, 9th Hour, and Typica] — Vespers combined with the Liturgy of Saint Basil, The Great.

On the Day of the Feast:
In Slavonic usage, The Evening and Dawn Aggregates are combined into All-Night-Vigil, to include Great Complines, Great Matins (Orthros), and First Hour. This Midday Aggregate includes the Third and Sixth Hours and the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom.

(b) When the Feast falls on Sunday or Monday:

On the preceding Friday:
Evening Aggregate: Ninth Hour — Daily Vespers — Small Complines;
Dawn Aggregate: Midnight Office — Daily Matins (Orthros) — First Hour;
Midday Aggregate: Great Hours (Royal Hours) [1st Hour, 3rd Hour, 6th Hour, 9th Hour and Typika]

The Components of the aggregates for Saturday if the Feast falls on Sunday, and for both Saturday and Sunday if the Fast falls on Monday, are the same as those described  (in b, above) for days which have “Theos Kyrios”.

On the day of the Feast:

The Evening Aggregate (which in Slavonic Use begins at 1 P.M.) Includes Ninth Hour. And Great Vespers with the Great Blessing of Waters. The Dawn and Midday Aggregates combine to, Include Midnight Office, Great Matins (Orthros), and the Liturgy of Saint Basil, the Great.

[BrotherAidan]

That is a very pretty cat!

[Fr. George]

sdcheung,

I don't think we do the Typika with the great hours in the Greek Practice (not according to the EP).  The Menaion for December from Greece (Apostoliki Diakonia) has it, but I think the Typikon for our practice doesn't call for it.

[sdcheung]

it goes..Great Hours to Liturgy then?

[Fr. George]

Well, in our practice, usually (depending on the church - but this is general practice) the Great Hours are done in the morning on the Eve (unless Christmas or Epiphany falls on a Sunday or Monday, in which case it is done the Friday before), and the Vesperal Liturgy in the evening (again, unless under the exception above, in which case there is no Liturgy with Vespers...)

I hate writing this out... how about a chart?  The following is according to the Typikon that Constantinople puts out... (I hope it displays correctly)

                                                    Christmas/Theophany Tue-Sat                               Sun-Mon
Great Hours                                              Morning of the Eve                                    Friday Morning before
Matins with Liturgy of John                         Morning of the Feast                                  Morning of the Eve
Great Vespers Alone                                     -----------------------                                    Night of the Eve
Vesperal Liturgy of Saint Basil                     Night of the Eve                                        -----------------------------
Matins with Liturgy of Basil                         ----------------------------                                   Morning of the Feast

[serb1389]

Wow...is it just me or did that not come out right?  I couldn't make any sense of it. 

I'll find out what the Serbian Typik says as soon as I can translate it!  so in about a month...lol. 

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