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William
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« Reply #20610 on: May 02, 2014, 06:04:19 PM »

Did the Lord Jesus think?
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« Reply #20611 on: May 02, 2014, 06:12:30 PM »

Mankind and the angels are 'created' beings;
the 'creature' cannot 'know' the Creator.

And the Theotokos is a human being - the highest of the high
but a 'creature' nonetheless.She is not God so she cannot know/partake of the Divine Essences.
and yes, of course she can know her Son, insofar as He is perfect Man -(as well as perfect God.)
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« Reply #20612 on: May 02, 2014, 06:12:53 PM »

James and I were discussing how Christ must not have an intellect since He does not have a gnomic will. I have been pondering on how to give up on having an intellect. Maybe that is what OC.net is for?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 06:13:39 PM by William » Logged

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« Reply #20613 on: May 02, 2014, 06:15:13 PM »

@William: well what do  -  you -- think?
He is, after all 'Perfect Man.'
Men think.
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« Reply #20614 on: May 02, 2014, 06:15:18 PM »

James and I were discussing how Christ must not have an intellect since He does not have a gnomic will. I have been pondering on how to give up on having an intellect. Maybe that is what OC.net is for?

That's what the Politics board is for. Wink
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« Reply #20615 on: May 02, 2014, 06:27:33 PM »

your conclusion is based on a faulty premise. Lack of gnomic will does not 'ipso facto' result in, nor imply a lack of intellect.
For instance, what was Jesus at  the age of twelve doing, if not using His intellect when debating with the elders of the Temple.?
Was His intellect not involved when He drove the merchants and money-changers from the Temple?
and so on...
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William
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« Reply #20616 on: May 02, 2014, 06:29:26 PM »

your conclusion is based on a faulty premise. Lack of gnomic will does not 'ipso facto' result in, nor imply a lack of intellect.
For instance, what was Jesus at  the age of twelve doing, if not using His intellect when debating with the elders of the Temple.?
Was His intellect not involved when He drove the merchants and money-changers from the Temple?
and so on...

The words came from His heart and did not need refinement in an evil mind.
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« Reply #20617 on: May 02, 2014, 06:37:13 PM »

evil mind?!!!!!
how do you arrive at that conclusion?
remember, 'Perfect Man' as well as 'Perfect God.'

In any case, the 'fasting and praying' which He did so often would have purified an 'evil mind.'
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« Reply #20618 on: May 02, 2014, 06:38:51 PM »

That is not to say that Christ had an evil mind, but that minds in general are evil (Genesis 6:5), and so Christ lacked a mind at all.
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« Reply #20619 on: May 02, 2014, 07:03:18 PM »

all men have minds; ( well, in theory, anyway!) although sometimes it's hard to determine!
Christ is a Man (The Man we all should have been)
so Christ has a mind.
Could a person - any person- go through the agony in the Garden of Gethsename without an intellect?
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« Reply #20620 on: May 02, 2014, 07:04:54 PM »

That is not to say that Christ had an evil mind, but that minds in general are evil (Genesis 6:5), and so Christ lacked a mind at all.

Apollinarianism?
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« Reply #20621 on: May 02, 2014, 07:11:38 PM »

sho' nuff.
An egreeegious heresy!


*makes the sign of the Cross*
Perhaps  William could 'google' apollinarianism to see just what the definition is; and how it fits his argument.
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« Reply #20622 on: May 02, 2014, 07:17:45 PM »

That is not to say that Christ had an evil mind, but that minds in general are evil (Genesis 6:5), and so Christ lacked a mind at all.

Apollinarianism?

It is not that Christ is a human body inhabited by God in lieu of a soul as the accursed Apollinaris taught, but that Christ's human nature was so thoroughly deified that it had no need of postlapsarian creations such as a deliberating intellect. The same is true of the saints who learn to eliminate their thoughts and make their minds completely silent and still. So my heresy at the very least is not incarnational.
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« Reply #20623 on: May 02, 2014, 07:27:35 PM »

I had a very bizarre dream the other morning.

Pray tell.

Well, perhaps it was induced by the cherry popsicle and aspirins I took to deal with my migraine, but the dream was a series of bizarre events.

First, I was at the dentist about to get a root canal, but the dentist was possessed by the yellow-eyed demon Azazel so I threw a molotov cocktail on him and escaped out the window. Then I was at Church, and the service kept systematically changing. First it was Pascha night, and for some reason my Priest gave me the Eucharist with unleavened bread and I thought it was heretical and almost had a temper tantrum, then it became the Nativity and the power went out in my Church. Then out of nowhere 6 attractive blonde women came up to me in a single-file line and each hugged and kissed me, telling me how much they loved a straight-edged virginal religious man (that's when I knew I was dreaming) and then I was on the couch with my brother watching Anthony Burdain's No Reservations, and my dad was clapping and cheering me on for attracting so many girls. Then I woke up and that was that.
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« Reply #20624 on: May 02, 2014, 07:32:51 PM »

Unless I am misunderstanding you, St. Gregory (see these letters) seems to argue against what you are saying. Apollinarius apparently thought that Christ had a human soul and body, but not a mind. To this St. Gregory argued that the whole human person fell from grace (including mind), and so the whole human person needed to be part of the solution. This is where the famous phrase comes in about: "that which is not assumed is not healed." Though once you get into discussions of will and assent I suppose I am not aware enough about the details.
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methodius
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« Reply #20625 on: May 02, 2014, 07:36:05 PM »

a 'deliberating intellect'  is NOT a postlapsarian, we - mankind - were created in the 'image and likeness' of God.
The 'image' is our reasoning power. That is how we were created - at the beginning.
The 'likeness' of course is what we strive to achieve in theosis.
Do some reading in Irenaeus - Adversus haerises.
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« Reply #20626 on: May 02, 2014, 07:46:54 PM »

a 'deliberating intellect'  is NOT a postlapsarian, we - mankind - were created in the 'image and likeness' of God.
The 'image' is our reasoning power. That is how we were created - at the beginning.
The 'likeness' of course is what we strive to achieve in theosis.
Do some reading in Irenaeus - Adversus haerises.

Actually, it is a well established tenet of Orthodox Christology that Christ did not deliberate, following St. Maximus and co. in the monothelete controversy.

Remember that the fruit that Eve and Adam ate was of "knowledge of good and evil." Ironically, instead of becoming like God as Satan promised, they fell from God, for God does not know how to choose evil like man does.

Asteriktos, you're right that St. Gregory wrote that Christ assumed and healed the intellect. But what did he mean by intellect? One that can give equal weight to good and evil during deliberations?
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« Reply #20627 on: May 03, 2014, 10:29:17 AM »

The lady that called this in will be getting free sodas for life at every place in town...


When Chelsie Shellhas saw a tall young man slip into a storage locker and shut the door behind him one evening this week, it just looked wrong. She dialed 911.
Her instincts were right: Behind the door were bomb-making materials, police in Wacesa, Minnesota, said Thursday. Her call thwarted a cunningly planned gun and bomb attack at a school, they say.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/02/justice/minnesota-attack-thwarted/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
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« Reply #20628 on: May 03, 2014, 11:01:22 AM »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-schuermann/greek-orthodox-churches-i_b_5231929.html

Some beautiful churches on the island of Ios in Greece.
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Mor Ephrem
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« Reply #20629 on: May 03, 2014, 05:41:08 PM »

Well, perhaps it was induced by the cherry popsicle and aspirins I took to deal with my migraine, but the dream was a series of bizarre events.

First, I was at the dentist about to get a root canal, but the dentist was possessed by the yellow-eyed demon Azazel so I threw a molotov cocktail on him and escaped out the window. Then I was at Church, and the service kept systematically changing. First it was Pascha night, and for some reason my Priest gave me the Eucharist with unleavened bread and I thought it was heretical and almost had a temper tantrum, then it became the Nativity and the power went out in my Church. Then out of nowhere 6 attractive blonde women came up to me in a single-file line and each hugged and kissed me, telling me how much they loved a straight-edged virginal religious man (that's when I knew I was dreaming) and then I was on the couch with my brother watching Anthony Burdain's No Reservations, and my dad was clapping and cheering me on for attracting so many girls. Then I woke up and that was that.

That sounds more or less like most of the dreams I have that I can remember upon waking: a series of nonsensical, seemingly unconnected events that are a mix of things earthly and hellish. 
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Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

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Nephi
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« Reply #20630 on: May 04, 2014, 06:34:23 PM »

^Almost every dream I have and remember is apocalyptic for some reason. Either the world is ending (a different way each time) or some other cataclysmic event is taking place. I don't know why.
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Mor Ephrem
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« Reply #20631 on: May 04, 2014, 06:48:38 PM »

^Almost every dream I have and remember is apocalyptic for some reason. Either the world is ending (a different way each time) or some other cataclysmic event is taking place. I don't know why.

Once, in my dreams, I got off the school bus, walked to my home, and opened the door, only to have really loud death metal blasting from some huge speakers that I didn't own, and Marvel Comics' Ghost Rider, skull aflame, run me over with his motorcycle.

Those are entertaining.  When I see future events and they come true, however, that creeps me out a little.   
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Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

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« Reply #20632 on: May 04, 2014, 06:51:19 PM »

^Almost every dream I have and remember is apocalyptic for some reason. Either the world is ending (a different way each time) or some other cataclysmic event is taking place. I don't know why.

Once, in my dreams, I got off the school bus, walked to my home, and opened the door, only to have really loud death metal blasting from some huge speakers that I didn't own, and Marvel Comics' Ghost Rider, skull aflame, run me over with his motorcycle.
]

so you had a dream that you were Asteriktos??
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« Reply #20633 on: May 04, 2014, 07:01:54 PM »

^Almost every dream I have and remember is apocalyptic for some reason. Either the world is ending (a different way each time) or some other cataclysmic event is taking place. I don't know why.

Once, in my dreams, I got off the school bus, walked to my home, and opened the door, only to have really loud death metal blasting from some huge speakers that I didn't own, and Marvel Comics' Ghost Rider, skull aflame, run me over with his motorcycle.

Those are entertaining.  When I see future events and they come true, however, that creeps me out a little.   

That does sound interesting, minus the getting run over bit. I think I've always had strange dreams, when I think about it. The first dream I can remember was when I was like 4, and in it my mom was swallowed whole by a snake who then went back into his hole in the ground.

One of the dreams I had in middle school was my entire class having been taken captive by these little goblin things and led single-file into a big, boiling pot.

An apocalyptic dream I had a while back had a surprise-twist ending, though. In the dream, parts of the world were slowly yet systematically being destroyed by cataclysmic events/storms, until finally it my area's time to perish (part of the dream, IIRC, was me on the run and watching the destruction on the news). Then next thing you know, this deity-figure recreates the world all nice and happy-like, and there we go.
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« Reply #20634 on: May 04, 2014, 07:02:22 PM »

so you had a dream that you were Asteriktos??

No, but I could do a lot worse.  Wink
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Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

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« Reply #20635 on: May 04, 2014, 08:08:28 PM »

Being forced to listen to death metal would be my nightmare. police
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« Reply #20636 on: May 04, 2014, 08:28:42 PM »

Being forced to listen to death metal would be my nightmare. police

Even melodic death metal? I haven't listened to the stuff in years, but In Flames was good back in the day.
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« Reply #20637 on: May 04, 2014, 08:29:57 PM »

Not everything fits in the context of  Christianity.
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« Reply #20638 on: May 04, 2014, 08:56:30 PM »

Being forced to listen to death metal would be my nightmare. police

Even melodic death metal? I haven't listened to the stuff in years, but In Flames was good back in the day.

Yeah, I think I have one death metal record, and haven't liked anything else I've heard from that type of music.
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« Reply #20639 on: May 04, 2014, 08:57:24 PM »

Not everything fits in the context of  Christianity.

Like Texas!
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« Reply #20640 on: May 04, 2014, 10:05:37 PM »

This place is dead tonight. Everyone praying their 3 hour long nightly prayer rule or something? Lord be with you, pious hearts!
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« Reply #20641 on: May 04, 2014, 10:11:02 PM »

wore themselves out arguing
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« Reply #20642 on: May 04, 2014, 11:23:15 PM »

This place is dead tonight. Everyone praying their 3 hour long nightly prayer rule or something? Lord be with you, pious hearts!

I haven't started yet...   Cry
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Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

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« Reply #20643 on: May 05, 2014, 12:38:45 AM »

I'll help you guys start.
Blessed is our God, always now and ever and unto the ages of ages.
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« Reply #20644 on: May 05, 2014, 12:51:05 AM »

A-men
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« Reply #20645 on: May 05, 2014, 12:52:47 AM »

In peace, let us pray to the Lord.
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« Reply #20646 on: May 05, 2014, 12:54:20 AM »

kyrie eleison
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« Reply #20647 on: May 05, 2014, 01:01:05 AM »

For the peace from above and for the salvation of our souls let us pray to the Lord
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« Reply #20648 on: May 05, 2014, 01:09:22 AM »

c'mon guys; I just got back from a looong DL; no more Great Litany please?
besides which the Deacon is giving me lessons in being a Reader.
all in all; a very full day.

We have seen the True Light...!
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« Reply #20649 on: May 05, 2014, 01:17:37 AM »

c'mon guys; I just got back from a looong DL; no more Great Litany please?

Gee, I was trying to do the entire DL in this thread.  Now all the fun has been spoiled.   Shocked
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« Reply #20650 on: May 05, 2014, 01:20:56 AM »

why don't you just cut to the Agapé and maybe that way I can get some of the sushi
the kids grabbed while I wasn't looking!
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« Reply #20651 on: May 05, 2014, 01:26:33 AM »

Gee, I was trying to do the entire DL in this thread. 

Possibly the only thing that could be posted on this thread that would be more boring than the "...beers on the wall" stuff early on?  Tongue  Cheesy
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« Reply #20652 on: May 05, 2014, 01:29:27 AM »

Gee, I was trying to do the entire DL in this thread. 

Possibly the only thing that could be posted on this thread that would be more boring than the "...beers on the wall" stuff early on?  Tongue  Cheesy

Verses from the Bible....
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« Reply #20653 on: May 05, 2014, 01:29:51 AM »

well, if they were British, Belgian or German beers, that would be excellent : all 99 of them - properly chilled of course.
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« Reply #20654 on: May 05, 2014, 01:31:54 AM »

How about all the 'begats'?

Or Numbers 1,1 to end -- in the Septuagint text, of course.

zzzzzzz
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kyrie eleison
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