Author Topic: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?  (Read 6318 times)

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Offline StGeorge

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What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« on: December 22, 2005, 12:48:25 AM »
I am Latin Rite Catholic, and I frequently hear about how the Roman Catholic Church burnt Lollard, Wycliffian, Hussite and Protestant heretics, and how it tortured thousands of people in the dungeons of the Inquisition.  The Roman Catholic Church also sacked Constantinople, deposed the Greek Patriarch and established a Latin patriarch over his see.  And so forth with the list of "crimes." 

I am just curious if the Orthodox Church has had similiar accusations levied against it: like political wielding of power by the Patriarchs, collaboration with the communists, etc.  When people speak of the "crimes" of the Orthodox Church, what usually comes up?  Since I'm thinking of converting, I would really like to know everything about the Orthodox Church, including its certain unfavorable incidents.  Thanks!

Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2005, 01:10:50 AM »
[Decides not to push moderator's patience, and hence lets it slide]
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 01:37:41 AM by EkhristosAnesti »
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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2005, 01:57:02 AM »
EA,

This post was referred to the moderators.  Now, I don't know what was said, but evidently you felt bad enough about it to remove it.  Generally speaking, this kind of editing of posts is prohibited, and I don't think this is a surprise to anyone, we've had this policy ever since someone started deleting all their posts some time ago.  Don't let it happen again.  We will not hesitate to take action against violators. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2005, 02:06:12 AM »
What a joke. I didn’t say anything wrong. I was simply referring to Justinian’s atrocities against the Orthodox Church — you know, the murder of your Fathers and my Fathers. If I felt bad about what I said, it was out of pity; I felt bad about persisting in arguing the fact that the EO church mass-murdered Orthodox Christians, and so i decided to let it go. Simple as that.
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2005, 02:15:45 AM »
You should have let it stand... it's posts like that that help me to see (or remind me of) the truth more and more each day...

Just one thing. When people start leaving the Church (yours or mine), don't act suprised, ok? Don't say "oh, well I never meant for THAT to happen".ÂÂ  You just keep on speaking, but make sure you understand the consequences of your words. There is no such thing as an idle word. You can't make accusations of "the EO church mass-murder[ing] Orthodox Christians" and then expect everyone to forget that you said it when push comes to shove (ie. when the accusation isn't leading to conclusions or results you happen to want). You put it out there... if true, one must ask oneself why anyone would want to be Eastern Orthodox? Obviously the situation is complicated by the fact that the Orthodox Church considers Justinian a saint...   But what if one does not wish to join an Oriental Orthodox Church? Well I guess such a person is plum out of luck, no?

Not deleting posts... not THIS one anyway :)

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« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 02:17:18 AM by Asteriktos »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2005, 05:07:16 AM »
Just one thing. When people start leaving the Church (yours or mine), don't act suprised, ok? Don't say "oh, well I never meant for THAT to happen".ÂÂ  You just keep on speaking, but make sure you understand the consequences of your words.

I fully agree Justin, we will have to answer at the Dreadful Judgement Seat for every word, and how much worse it will be for us if a soul was lost because of what we said. Our words will live on, long after we are dead, so we'd better make sure that they will be pleading for our souls to be granted rest.

"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!"
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Offline Matthew777

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2005, 05:23:08 AM »
I've heard about a recent scandal in the Greek Church involving drug dealers.
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Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2005, 05:24:43 AM »
Quote
You should have let it stand... it's posts like that that help me to see (or remind me of) the truth more and more each day...

Oh really?

My post referred to a previous thread in which you yourself participated. Your response to a reference provided in that particular thread regarding the reliability and validity of the testimony of an ancient historian, was asserted in direct contradiction to the perspective given by a contemporary and qualified secular historian. You didn’t argue a case; you merely asserted a contrary and unsubstantiated point of view. You furthermore disregarded the testimony of our Coptic historians accounting for our own Coptic history, which seems quite in harmony with all that was said by the ancient historian in question. Maybe there’s a conspiracy theory? Or maybe we’re all just liars?

Quote
Just one thing. When people start leaving the Church (yours or mine), don't act suprised, ok?

I was/am not trying to proselytise; I was/am simply bringing forth the historical testimony of my fathers who witnessed and experienced the terror of post-Chalcedonian Byzantine rule. How people process or react to the Truth is not my issue or concern. I have no intentions or agendas beyond presenting and defending the Truth as I have come to learn and understand it.

Quote
You just keep on speaking, but make sure you understand the consequences of your words.

The consequences arising from one’s learning the truth can either be positive or negative, depending on how one facing the truth, processes and deals with it. I cannot possibly be held responsible for either the positive or the negative consequences arising from one’s awareness or learning of certain truths, even though I be responsible of (and proudly at that) asserting and defending that very truth.

+irini nem makarismos
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Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2005, 05:25:31 AM »
Matthew,

Drug dealers are everywhere; don't be stupid.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2005, 05:36:14 AM »
EA,
I saw what you originally wrote, I was one of the people who reported it. It was not "simply" what you are now saying. You made a personal attack on a forum member (yet again), and that is why I reported it. Slandering someone is not "simply telling the truth." I wager you removed it because you repented of personally attacking a member, and not for any noble cause like "pity".

Matthew,
Drug dealers are everywhere; don't be stupid.
Just can't help yourself, can you?

What part of "But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:22) don't you understand?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 05:40:07 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Matthew777

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2005, 05:45:02 AM »
Matthew,

Drug dealers are everywhere; don't be stupid.

Yes, but priests shouldn't attempt to hide dealers from the police.
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Offline nikolaos

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2005, 06:38:10 AM »
COULD YOU BE MORE SPACIFIC MATTHEW

Offline Matthew777

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2005, 06:42:17 AM »
Greece in revolt as scandals sweep the Orthodox church

Helena Smith in Athens
Sunday March 20, 2005
The Observer
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1441811,00.html
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Offline nikolaos

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2005, 06:55:49 AM »
MATTHEW I VE HEARD THIS STORY I WOULD LIKE TO INFORM YOU THAT ARCHIBISHOP CHRISTODULOS  WAS NEVER OFFICIALY ACCUSED FOR ILLEGAL ACTIONS.I WOULD LIKE ALSO TO STRESS THAT ARCHIBISHOP IS NOT MY FAVORITE PERSON IN OC.BUT HE IS NOT THAT KIND OF PERSON THAT YOU IMPLY THAT HE IS.I WOULD LIKE ALSO TO POINT OYT THAT IT IS WRONG TO IDENTIFY A HOLE CHURCH WITH THE ACTIONS OF ONE PERSON ESPECIALLY WHEN THIS ACTIONS NEVER PROVED.

Offline Matthew777

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2005, 06:57:27 AM »
I have not blamed the whole Church for the actions of one man. All have fallen short of the glory of God, I have no right to judge.

Peace.
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Offline nikolaos

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2005, 07:04:07 AM »
MATTHEW I WAS NOT REFERING TO YOU. MY STATEMENT WAS GENERAL SORY IF I WAS NOT VERY CLEAR BUT I HAVE DIFICULTIES SINCE I AM NOT A NATIVE SPEAKER MY GOAL WAS JUST TO INFORM EVERYONE IN THIS BOARD ABOYT WHAT WAS REALLY HAPPEND. IN ANY CASE MARY CHRISTMAS

Offline Matthew777

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2005, 07:05:19 AM »
Merry Christmas to you.

Peace.
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Offline Ebor

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2005, 08:24:22 AM »
Merry Christmas to you also, Nikolaos.  :)

One little thing: Please take your computer keyboard off the "CapLock".  All caps is like shouting in posts.

Best

Ebor
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Offline Silouan

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2005, 12:57:26 PM »
Quote
I was/am not trying to proselytise; I was/am simply bringing forth the historical testimony of my fathers who witnessed and experienced the terror of post-Chalcedonian Byzantine rule. How people process or react to the Truth is not my issue or concern. I have no intentions or agendas beyond presenting and defending the Truth as I have come to learn and understand it.

I think you missed Justin's point.  Your tone of constant attack can affect people very negatively - and people you don't know you are affecting.  You do more to promote your Tradition and Orthodoxy in general by the threads where you speak of the positive things of the Coptic Church (i.e when you talked about the new year procession at your parish etc.).  Many people have been deeply jaded by witnessing all the "fighting among different religions." 

Offline yBeayf

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not this again...
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2005, 04:12:19 PM »

Look everybody, a puppy!


Offline Silouan

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2005, 04:26:26 PM »
eh, I'm a cat person

Offline sdcheung

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2005, 04:37:24 PM »
see signature..

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2005, 04:43:12 PM »
I had a friend who used to breed Maine Coon cats.  They were very intelligent animals.  He used to clip their claws and they hated it.  One day he tried to find the nail clippers and they were no where to be found.  A few days later he emptied the cats' litter box and there the clippers were on the bottom of the box.

Offline yBeayf

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2005, 04:45:35 PM »
I'm a cat person myself, but a puppy is the canonical anti-trainwreck diversionary tactic.

My cats have hidden their nail clippers as well, so I have to make do with human ones that I then put out of their reach when I'm not using them.

To mollify you cat lovers, here are my two kitties when they were babies:

« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 04:53:14 PM by yBeayf »

Offline Meekle

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2005, 04:47:13 PM »
I am Latin Rite Catholic, and I frequently hear about how the Roman Catholic Church burnt Lollard, Wycliffian, Hussite and Protestant heretics, and how it tortured thousands of people in the dungeons of the Inquisition.  The Roman Catholic Church also sacked Constantinople, deposed the Greek Patriarch and established a Latin patriarch over his see.  And so forth with the list of "crimes." 

I am just curious if the Orthodox Church has had similiar accusations levied against it: like political wielding of power by the Patriarchs, collaboration with the communists, etc.  When people speak of the "crimes" of the Orthodox Church, what usually comes up?  Since I'm thinking of converting, I would really like to know everything about the Orthodox Church, including its certain unfavorable incidents.  Thanks!

The real Dracula from Transylvania impaled over 30,000 men women and children. He did not stand for true Orthodoxy, and he later converted to the RCC, but he was "Orthodox" when he committed the crimes, if that's what you're after.

Offline sdcheung

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2005, 05:17:01 PM »
The real Dracula from Transylvania impaled over 30,000 men women and children. He did not stand for true Orthodoxy, and he later converted to the RCC, but he was "Orthodox" when he committed the crimes, if that's what you're after.

He did it for "Order" and Security and for an Example.
We should saint him for it.

His conversion to the Dark side of RCCism was forced by The Hungarians.

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Offline Ebor

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Re: not this again...
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2005, 06:54:01 PM »
Look everybody, a puppy!



Well done, sir!  ;)  and a very cute puppy indeed.  Your kitties or at least the 1 and 1/2 of them that can be seen are very cute too. 

Ebor
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Offline SaintShenouti

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2005, 07:00:24 PM »
Oh the digresion.

All the issues between EO and we the OO will in time be resolved through peaceable communication between the appointed spokesmen.  I especially love the efforts put in by our blessed Metropolitan Bishoy of Damietta (who in fact is the relative of the great Deacon Sidhom Bishay, martyr of the late 19th century at the hands of the Muslims, whose relics remain in tact within the province and I have personally seen).  Let us remember the efforts put in by the fathers, and make them proud by correcting the faults of the past.

Offline FrChris

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2005, 07:15:14 PM »
Quote

All the issues between EO and we the OO will in time be resolved through peaceable communication between the appointed spokesmen....

Indeed! What a great day that will be!
"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus

Offline Elisha

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2005, 07:34:11 PM »
eh, I'm a cat person

I'm both, with a slight preference to cats - I respect them more for there independence.  I have a 1.5 yr old Male Orange tabby named Falafel and a 7 mo old B&W female named Tahini.  And I like both the puppy and Maine Coon pictures.

Btw, I might be in Eloy from the eve of 12/29 to the morning of 1/1 to jump outta dem airplanes.


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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2005, 09:24:17 PM »
We should saint him for it.

You're kidding, right?  :o

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Re: What "crimes" are associated with the Orthodox Church?
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2005, 09:29:30 PM »
Alright, we've started talking about cats and puppies, and I sense another 'frank and open' discussion coming along.

With SouthSerb temporarily indisposed, I'm locking this thread.
"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus