Author Topic: Ex-Orthodox, now Catholic pondering going back to Orthodoxy. Heres my problems:  (Read 982 times)

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Offline Ahlstrom

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Sorry if this is in the wrong forum. If it is please move it.

I would classify my problems coming back into 2 categories: the first is things that really matter... the second are more superficial things that have no real impact on if a church is true or not, but still matter to me.

The things that matter are: 1) the apparent supremecy (not mere primacy) of the Papacy based on the writings of the Church Fathers, and 2) a change in Orthodox doctrine regarding contraception since the 1970s, which seems to run contrary to what the Church Fathers relayed through Apostolic Tradition.

So here are the quotes which are problems for me coming back. Some are from clergymen, some from monastics, some from political rulers. I've tried my best to shuffle out ones that deal with primacy and gone straight for ones that imply supremecy:

Saint Jerome: (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]).

>“I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails.

Saint Jerome: (Against Jovinianus 1:26 [A.D. 393])

>But you say, Matthew 16:18 the Church was founded upon Peter: although elsewhere the same is attributed to all the Apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the Church depends upon them all alike, yet one among the twelve is chosen so that when a head has been appointed, there may be no occasion for schism.

Saint Irenaeus - (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

>“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition”

Stephen, Bishop of Dora in Palestine (645)

>And for this cause, sometimes we ask for water to our head and to our eyes a fountain of tears, sometimes the wings of a dove, according to holy David, that we might fly away and announce these things to the Chair [of Rome] which rules and presides over all, I mean to yours, the head and highest, for the healing of the whole wound. For this it has been accustomed to do from old and from the beginning with power by its canonical or apostolic authority, because the truly great Peter, head of the Apostles, was clearly thought worthy not only to be trusted with the keys of heaven, alone apart from the rest, to open it worthily to believers, or to close it justly to those who disbelieve the Gospel of grace, but because he was also commissioned to feed the sheep of the whole Catholic Church; for 'Peter,' saith He, 'lovest thou Me? Feed My sheep.' And again, because he had in a manner peculiar and special, a faith in the Lord stronger than all and unchangeable, to be converted and to confirm his fellows and spiritual brethren when tossed about, as having been adorned by God Himself incarnate for us with power and sacerdotal authority .....And Sophronius of blessed memory, who was Patriarch of the holy city of Christ our God, and under whom I was bishop, conferring not with flesh and blood, but caring only for the things of Christ with respect to your Holiness, hastened to send my nothingness without delay about this matter alone to this Apostolic see, where are the foundations of holy doctrine.

St. Proclus, Patriarch of Constantinople, disciple of St. John Chrysostom (434) (Cassian, Contra Nestorium, III, 12, CSEL, vol. 17, p. 276).

>That great man, the disciple of disciples, that master among masters, who wielding the government of the Roman Church possessed the principle authority in faith and in priesthood. Tell us, therefore, we beg of you, Peter, prince of Apostles, tell us how the Churches must believe in God.

Emperor Justinian (520-533) - (Justinian Epist. ad. Pap. Joan. ii. Cod. Justin. lib. I. tit. 1).

>[Writing to Pope John II]: Yielding honor to the Apostolic See and to Your Holiness, and honoring your Holiness, as one ought to honor a father, we have hastened to subject all the priests of the whole Eastern district, and to unite them to the See of your Holiness, for we do not allow of any point, however manifest and indisputable it be, which relates to the state of the Churches, not being brought to the cognizance of your Holiness, since you are the Head of all the holy Churches.

Emperor Justinian (520-533) - (Coll. Avell. Ep. 196, July 9th, 520, Justinian to Pope Hormisdas).

>Let your Apostleship show that you have worthily succeeded to the Apostle Peter, since the Lord will work through you, as Surpreme Pastor, the salvation of all.

St. Maximus the Confessor (c. 650) - (Maximus, in J.B. Mansi, ed. Amplissima Collectio Conciliorum, vol. 10)

>How much more in the case of the clergy and Church of the Romans, which from old until now presides over all the churches which are under the sun? Having surely received this canonically, as well as from councils and the apostles, as from the princes of the latter (Peter and Paul), and being numbered in their company, she is subject to no writings or issues in synodical documents, on account of the eminence of her pontificate .....even as in all these things all are equally subject to her (the Church of Rome) according to sacerodotal law. And so when, without fear, but with all holy and becoming confidence, those ministers (the popes) are of the truly firm and immovable rock, that is of the most great and Apostolic Church of Rome.

St. Maximus the Confessor (c. 650) - (Maximus, Letter to Peter, in Mansi x, 692).

>If the Roman See recognizes Pyrrhus to be not only a reprobate but a heretic, it is certainly plain that everyone who anathematizes those who have rejected Pyrrhus also anathematizes the See of Rome, that is, he anathematizes the Catholic Church. I need hardly add that he excommunicates himself also, if indeed he is in communion with the Roman See and the Catholic Church of God ...Let him hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman See, for if it is satisfied, all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to persuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed Pope of the most holy Catholic Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic See, which is from the incarnate of the Son of God Himself, and also all the holy synods, according to the holy canons and definitions has received universal and supreme dominion, authority, and power of binding and loosing over all the holy churches of God throughout the whole world.

St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople (758-828) - (Nicephorus, Niceph. Cpl. pro. s. imag. c 25 [Mai N. Bibl. pp. ii. 30]).

>Without whom [the Romans presiding in the seventh Council] a doctrine brought forward in the Church could not, even though confirmed by canonical decrees and by ecclesiastical usuage, ever obtain full approval or currency. For it is they [the Popes of Rome] who have had assigned to them the rule in sacred things, and who have received into their hands the dignity of headship among the Apostles.

St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople - (Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63).

>I witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Surpreme See [Rome], in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie. Let the blessed and Apostolic Paschal (Pope St. Paschal I) rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter. (Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63).

St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople - (Theodore the Studite, Patr. Graec. 99, 1420)

>Let him (Patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople) assemble a synod of those with whom he has been at variance, if it is impossible that representatives of the other Patriarchs should be present, a thing which might certainly be if the Emperor should wish the Western Patriarch (the Roman Pope) to be present, to whom is given authority over an ecumenical synod; but let him make peace and union by sending his synodical letters to the prelate of the First See.

Theodoret, Bishop of Cyrus in Syria (450) - (Theodoret, Tom. iv. Epist. cxvi. Renato, p. 1197).

>I therefore beseech your holiness to persuade the most holy and blessed bishop (Pope Leo) to use his Apostolic power, and to order me to hasten to your Council. For that most holy throne (Rome) has the sovereignty over the churches throughout the universe on many grounds.

I do not see, in any capacity, how Ptr. Bartholomew I has this sort of power described by pre-Schism Christians.

I am well aware of the debate between the "universal bishop" comment by Pope St. Gregory the Great and burned out from bouncing back and forth from it, so please don't bring it up. I'm well aware of both positions lol.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyways I would like to move on to the other big rock I have blocking my path: the apparent change in Apostolic Tradition regarding contraception. Here is what the Church Fathers say about preventing pregnancy ans spilling the seed:

Lactantius, Divine 6:23:18 (A.D. 307).

>"God gave us eyes not to see and desire pleasure, but to see acts to be performed for the needs of life; so too, the genital [’generating’] part of the body, as the name itself teaches, has been received by us for no other purpose than the generation of offspring.”

St. Augustine, Against Faustus 22:30 (A.D. 400).

>"For thus the eternal law, that is, the will of God creator of all creatures, taking counsel for the conservation of natural order, not to serve lust, but to see to the preservation of the race, permits the delight of mortal flesh to be released from the control of reason in copulation only to propagate progeny."

St. Augustine, The Morals of the Manichees 18:65 (A.D. 388).

>"This proves that you [Manicheans] approve of having a wife, not for the procreation of children, but for the gratification of passion. In marriage, as the marriage law declares, the man and woman come together for the procreation of children. Therefore, whoever makes the procreation of children a greater sin than copulation, forbids marriage and makes the woman not a wife but a mistress, who for some gifts presented to her is joined to the man to gratify his passion."

St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Matthew 28:5 (A.D. 391).

>"n truth, all men know that they who are under the power of this disease [the sin of covetousness] are wearied even of their father’s old age [wishing him to die so they can inherit]; and that which is sweet, and universally desirable, the having of children, they esteem grievous and unwelcome. Many at least with this view have even paid money to be childless, and have mutilated nature, not only killing the newborn, but even acting to prevent their beginning to live."

Caesarius of Arles, Sermons 1:12 (A.D. 522).

>"Who is he who cannot warn that no woman may take a potion so that she is unable to conceive or condemns in herself the nature which God willed to be fecund? As often as she could have conceived or given birth, of that many homicides she will be held guilty, and, unless she undergoes suitable penance, she will be damned by eternal death in hell. If a woman does not wish to have children, let her enter into a religious agreement with her husband; for chastity is the sole sterility of a Christian woman."

St. Clement of Alexandria, Instructor of Children 2:01:91:2 (A.D. 197)

>"Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted."

St. Clement of Alexandria, Instructor of Children 2:10:95:3 (A.D. 197)

>"To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature."

And to compare it with modern day Orthodox teaching:

Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America -  The Stand of the Orthodox Church on Controversial Issues, Questions of Sexual Issues, Paragraph 3 [(Source)](https://www.goarch.org/-/the-stand-of-the-orthodox-church-on-controversial-issues)

>The possible exception to the above affirmation of continuity of teaching is the view of the Orthodox Church on the issue of contraception. Because of the lack of a full understanding of the implications of the biology of reproduction, earlier writers tended to identify abortion with contraception. However, of late a new view has taken hold among Orthodox writers and thinkers on this topic, which permits the use of certain contraceptive practices within marriage for the purpose of spacing children, enhancing the expression of marital love, and protecting health.

Renowned Eastern Orthodox priest Metropolitan Kallistos Ware in his first 1963 print of “The Orthodox Church” gives the correct position

>Artificial methods of birth control are forbidden in the Orthodox Church.

Yet, in his 1993 reprint of “The Orthodox Church” he contradicts his previous pastoral ruling and position of the Apostolic Tradition and Church Fathers, saying:

>Concerning contraceptives and other forms of birth control, differing opinions exist within the Orthodox Church. **In the past** birth control was in general strongly condemned, but today a **less strict view is coming to prevail**, not only in the west but in traditional Orthodox countries. Many Orthodox theologians and spiritual fathers consider that the **responsible use of contraception within marriage is not in itself sinful.** In their view, the question of how many children a couple should have, and at what intervals, is best decided by the partners themselves, according to the guidance of **their own consciences.**

Interested to see what yall thing. God bless!
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 02:44:34 PM by Ahlstrom »
Psalm 103:8 - The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.

Offline Alpo2

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Catholics accept birth control too. They just have a very complicated way of saying it.

As for pick-and-choose prooftexting for papacy, it's just very lazy internet apologetics. That's not how the so-called undivided church operated. It was just as messy and un-organized as the Orthodox are today today. Even if Popes claimed this or that, they were conveniently ignored. Just as Patriarch Bartholomew is today, btw. 😇

Offline Ahlstrom

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As for pick-and-choose prooftexting for papacy, it's just very lazy internet apologetics.

I mean, yeah, but Eastern Orthodox also quote-mine a lot too (I was eventually baptized into the GoArch through people convincing me through quote mining so it' not always necessarily a bad thing), so I feel it's even playing field.

I am looking for an explanation of the context and as to why they are wrong.

Quote
That's not how the so-called undivided church operated. It was just as messy and un-organized as the Orthodox are today today. Even if Popes claimed this or that, they were conveniently ignored

One could look at Orthodox patristic quote-mining and just reverse it saying: "That's is how the so-called undivided church operated. It was just as organized as the Catholics are today. Even if Eastern Patriarchs claimed this or that, they were conveniently ignored"

So of course I am left confused as to what to decide. That's why I am looking for the Orthodox argument against those quotes. I want to be able to judge each sides responses just as, whenever Orthodox would pick-and-choose a simple quote with absolutley no context, I would similarly check out the Catholic position before deciding who was right.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 05:09:47 PM by Ahlstrom »
Psalm 103:8 - The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.

Offline Alpo2

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^Well yeah, quote-mining is silly no matter who does it. It's wrong because people read too much into ecclesiastical rhetorics without understanding the context. I'll let more knowledgeable to go through the quotes you provided but as for modern examples take titles of Patriarch of Alexandria: Father of Fathers, Pastor of Pastors, Prelate of Prelates, the Thirteenth of the Apostles and Judge of the Universe. Does that mean he has some special pregoratives over other patriarchs? Of course not.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 12:48:11 AM by Alpo2 »

Offline noahzarc1

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I would classify my problems coming back into 2 categories ...

Anyways I would like to move on to the other big rock I have blocking my path ....
I would just like to make sure I understand your questions/issues. In April 2016 you mentioned you were a catechumen. In March 2020 you are noting you are Catholic and going back to Orthodoxy.

1. Did you ever move from Catechumen to being received in the Orthodox Church and when did that happen?
2. How long were you in the Orthodox Church before you left and went to the Catholic Church?
3. Did you talk to your Orthodox Priest before you left to become Catholic?
4. When were you officially received into the Catholic Church?
5. Were you received by Chrismation and did you go through any catechesis in the Catholic Church?
6. Have you talked with either your previous Orthodox Priest or your current Catholic Priest about your concerns on this matter and what you plan to do next?

It does not appear you were fully Orthodox before leaving Orthodoxy and it does not appear you've been fully Catholic before wanting to leave the Catholic Church. I would highly recommend you take this issue to your current priest (or both your current and former priest) and have a very open discussion with both concerning your issues that you have. Otherwise, you're cruising' for a bruisin' of confusion if you try to settle the issue on a forum. Worse, you risk years of waffling. You're in your mid 20's now, but you do not want to wake up in your mid-40's and never have figured this out or worse, having left faith altogether.

All those quotes you put up have their time and place in history and were given by doctors, theologians and clergy of the Church. You will accomplish little trying to validate your position in a forum setting on an issue as big as what the Subject line of your thread suggest. Please go talk to your priest(s) and someone in authority in your life on these matters. 

noahzarc1:  Your post obviously offers some carefully considered advice to Ahlstrom.  It pains me a bit to have to chime in here in order to remind you that only Orthodox points of view are permitted in the Convert Issues forum: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=rules      Non-Orthodox members are only allowed to post here if it is in order to clarify misconceptions about their faith.  I'm sorry to have had to bring this up. 
Pravoslavbob, Section Moderator
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 04:51:34 PM by Pravoslavbob »
"While we fight about words, take advantage of ambiguities, criticize authors, fight on party questions, have difficulty in agreeing, and prepare to anathematize each other, there is scarce a man who belongs to Christ." - Hilary of Poitiers (367)

Offline Ahlstrom

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Please go talk to your priest(s) and someone in authority in your life on these matter

Will do. Sounds best route. Can a mod delete or lock this thread?

Ahlstrom: It is a general policy of this forum that threads/posts not be deleted. On rare occasions, when the moderation staff deems it appropriate, they may be consigned to a place where membership may not view them.  Threads are locked when a moderator deems it necessary, either temporarily or permanently.  This thread will remain unlocked for the time being.  Thank you.
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« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 05:10:56 PM by Pravoslavbob »
Psalm 103:8 - The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.

Offline RaphaCam

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Let's ask a holy Roman pope from way before the schism what the chair of St. Peter really is:

Quote
"Your most sweet Holiness has spoken much in your letter to me about the chair of Saint Peter, Prince of the apostles, saying that he himself now sits on it in the persons of his successors. And indeed I acknowledge myself to be unworthy, not only in the dignity of such as preside, but even in the number of such as stand. But I gladly accepted all that has been said, in that he has spoken to me about Peter's chair who occupies Peter's chair. And, though special honour to myself in no wise delights me, yet I greatly rejoiced because you, most holy ones, have given to yourselves what you have bestowed upon me. For who can be ignorant that holy Church has been made firm in the solidity of the Prince of the apostles, who derived his name from the firmness of his mind, so as to be called Petrus from petra. And to him it is said by the voice of the Truth, To you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven Matthew 16:19. And again it is said to him, And when you are converted, strengthen your brethren (xxii. 32). And once more, Simon, son of Jonas, do you love Me? Feed my sheep John 21:17. Wherefore though there are many apostles, yet with regard to the principality itself the See of the Prince of the apostles alone has grown strong in authority, which in three places is the See of one. For he himself exalted the See in which he deigned even to rest and end the present life. He himself adorned the See to which he sent his disciple as evangelist. He himself established the See in which, though he was to leave it, he sat for seven years. Since then it is the See of one, and one See, over which by Divine authority three bishops now preside, whatever good I hear of you, this I impute to myself."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360207040.htm

tl;dr Antioch and Alexandria hold the chair of Peter, too. Which doesn't mean predestination of eternal Orthodoxy.
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Offline RaphaCam

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The idea that Orthodox Christianity accepts contraception is false. Yes, most Orthodox authorities that have talked about artificial contraception have allowed it to some point, but it's still a hot and open topic. The Catholic Church has closed the topic, but who really cares? The vast majority of single adult Catholics are fornicating with condoms or even more agressive contraceptive methods anyway, just like most single adult Orthodox. You are holding to formalism.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline hecma925

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The idea that Orthodox Christianity accepts contraception is false. Yes, most Orthodox authorities that have talked about artificial contraception have allowed it to some point, but it's still a hot and open topic. The Catholic Church has closed the topic, but who really cares? The vast majority of single adult Catholics are fornicating with condoms or even more agressive contraceptive methods anyway, just like most single adult Orthodox. You are holding to formalism.

At least our fornicators know the True FaithTM.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline Pravoslavbob

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This is just a general request to everyone to please remember that this is the Convert Issues forum.  As such, it's certainly appropriate to underline differences here between the Orthodox Faith and others.  I understand that sticking to this idea and not gravitating towards polemics can be challenging at times, but please try to do this while avoiding sarcasm etc.  Thanks very much.
 
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Offline RaphaCam

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The idea that Orthodox Christianity accepts contraception is false. Yes, most Orthodox authorities that have talked about artificial contraception have allowed it to some point, but it's still a hot and open topic. The Catholic Church has closed the topic, but who really cares? The vast majority of single adult Catholics are fornicating with condoms or even more agressive contraceptive methods anyway, just like most single adult Orthodox. You are holding to formalism.
At least our fornicators know the True FaithTM.
Well, St. Dionysius the Areopagite does put demon-possessed Orthodox Christians closer to God than catechumens.

I understand this idea can be painful for people who are longing for reception into the Church or even simply outside the Church, but the mark of baptism is indellible, and, once the body and blood of Christ are consumed, it can't be "unconsumed". Men like Julian the Apostate, Ivan the Terrible and Stalin were just one penance away from the Lord. Everyone else has a longer way to go.

That's not to flee the subject. The point I'm trying to pass to the OP is: even if he's right about contraconception, it's better to join the condom-users in the Orthodox Church than to stay outside with whoever is (formally) preaching rigour.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 11:56:26 AM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Alpo2

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Offline hecma925

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True FaithTM.

I stole that. Thank you.

Behold an Orthodox thief indeed, in whom is no guile!
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Offline platypus

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Regarding contraception:

There are Orthodox Christians who claim artificial contraception is morally acceptable. The Roman Catholics have gone a large step further by officially allowing contraception via the rhythm method. The recorded teaching of the Church Fathers allows for neither.
Take, for example, this popular proof-text from St. Clement of Alexandria: "To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature." (Source here) There's no room in such a theology for selective abstinence during the fertile period, or for condoms. And St. Clement is hardly an anomaly.
So, the issue of contraception can hardly help in choosing between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Unless the lack of authoritative pro-contraception teaching in the Orthodox Church is enough to entice you.

Regarding the Papacy:

It is not difficult to find saints who had very good things to say about the Roman See, even to the point of sounding Roman Catholic. However, look at what actually made its way into canon law. Read the canons of the seven Ecumenical Councils, and compare it to the code of canon law currently used in the Roman Catholic Church. You'll find that the papal monarchy currently assumed by Rome is suspiciously absent from the canon law of the first millennia.
I stare at the screen, my fingers gliding across the keypad. Uninformed opinions appear in neat rows of text. They are my own. "Click post!" Pride whispers gleefully into my ear. I obey without resistance.
Please disregard everything I say.

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I'll only listen to Popes who have had children.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline RaphaCam

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It is not difficult to find saints who had very good things to say about the Roman See, even to the point of sounding Roman Catholic. However, look at what actually made its way into canon law. Read the canons of the seven Ecumenical Councils, and compare it to the code of canon law currently used in the Roman Catholic Church. You'll find that the papal monarchy currently assumed by Rome is suspiciously absent from the canon law of the first millennia.
These Fathers were always necessarily making another point, and then used the concordance with Rome, then a pillar of Orthodoxy, as a side argument. It's quote-mining. Where's any early treaty, letter or chapter wholly dedicated to petrine primacy in a time that the Church Fathers were writing whole essays about things as minutious as obscure Israelite kings, tiny sects or Christ's foreskin? Where is early Gospel commentary liking St. Matthew 16:18 to Rome?
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline xariskai

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As for pick-and-choose prooftexting for papacy, it's just very lazy internet apologetics.

I mean, yeah, but Eastern Orthodox also quote-mine a lot too

...So of course I am left confused as to what to decide. That's why I am looking for the Orthodox argument against those quotes.

Both Orthodox and RC claim that their understandings of primacy are grounded in the writings of the Fathers. Objectively speaking, both are correct. A literal consensus patrum on papal authority never existed. To suggest mere quotations or lists thereof representing one position among a larger diversity of anciently held positions expressed the mind of the Fathers is to ignore the complexity of the tradition.  It may be that the co-existence of a multitude of divergent views in the era of the 'undivided Church on this topic' offers the most promise for reasonable dialogue, as it allows Orthodox and RC alike to acknowledge the patristic roots of one another's approach. For a recent mature example see "Synodality and Primacy During the First Millennium: Towards a Common Understanding in Service to the Unity of the Church" by Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church (full text online).
Cherry-picked lists of apologetic prooftexts followed by Q. E. D. are convincing to few these days; the fewer the better.

More to the really critical point, I think, than quote-mining patristic diversity on primacy after that emerged as a topic, is the issue of whether something on the order of papacy however defined existed from the beginning of Christianity (mature or, in Aristotle's sense, in "seed" form) in the first place, which is not to say structural developments of Church hierarchy are ipso facto illegitimate -they aren't).[1] Internet apologist proof-texts re. Corinthian controversies, date of Pascha etc. to the contrary notwithstanding one might soon raise at least an eyebrow that every major contemporary scholar in print on the matter, including contemporary RC historians presently concur with Roman Catholic Jesuit historian Klaus Schatz on the following point:

"If one had asked a Christian in the year 100, 200, or even 300 whether the bishop of Rome was the head of all Christians, or whether there was a supreme bishop over all the other bishops and having the last word in questions affecting the whole church he or she would have certainly said no." -Historian /Jesuit priest Klaus Schatz,, Papal Primacy, From Its Origins to the Present, p. 3.

God grant you wisdom in your journey.

__________
[1] Cf. St. Justin's view that orders of bishops etc. are in Orthodoxy not a matter of something considered apostolic tradition or divine ordination but of practicality:  “…the Orthodox Church, in its nature and its dogmatically unchanging constitution is episcopal and centered in the bishops. For the bishop and the faithful gathered around him are the expression and manifestation of the Church as the Body of Christ, especially in the Holy Liturgy; the Church is Apostolic and Catholic only by virtue of its bishops, insofar as they are the heads of true ecclesiastical units, the dioceses. At the same time, the other, historically later and variable forms of church organization of the Orthodox Church: the metropolias, archdioceses, patriarchates, pentarchies, autocephalies, autonomies, etc., however many there may be or shall be, cannot have and do not have a determining and decisive significance in the conciliar system of the Orthodox Church."  -St. Justin Popovich, letter to Bishop Jovan (May 7, 1977).





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