Author Topic: OO for beginners  (Read 894 times)

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Offline Servos

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OO for beginners
« on: March 26, 2020, 07:38:37 PM »
Can someone explain me are Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (Paulose II) and Jacobite Syrian Christian Church (Thomas I) in communion?
If yes, why we have two Malankara churches in the same area?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2020, 08:56:24 PM »
Can someone explain me are Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (Paulose II) and Jacobite Syrian Christian Church (Thomas I) in communion?
If yes, why we have two Malankara churches in the same area?

They share the same faith, but there is a jurisdictional dispute for many decades now (actually about a century, give or take), so the two are not really in communion with each other, though each is in communion with all the other OO Churches.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2020, 09:09:29 PM »
Is the Jacobite Church the MSOC?   
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

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Offline Servos

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2020, 09:18:58 AM »


Thank you.
Do heads of OO Churches have some synaxis (council, meeting) from time to time?
Coptic, Armenian, Malankara, Syriac, Ethiopian...
Did all of the patriarchs served the Liturgy together in last decades? 

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2020, 10:03:29 AM »
Is the Jacobite Church the MSOC?

Short answer: yes.

“Jacobite” is actually a derogatory term, but at some point the Indians adopted it without much fuss.  As such, it belongs to both sides as much as the term “Orthodox”.  But the latter is the commonly accepted shorthand way of referring to the MOSC (autocephalous), while by the former is usually meant MSOC.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2020, 10:09:56 AM »


Thank you.
Do heads of OO Churches have some synaxis (council, meeting) from time to time?
Coptic, Armenian, Malankara, Syriac, Ethiopian...
Did all of the patriarchs served the Liturgy together in last decades?

The last intentional gathering of all the primates was in Addis Ababa in 1965.  Since then, there have been occasions for gathering all or most in the same place, but these have tended to be special occasions (e.g. patriarchal enthronements, consecration of Chrism), and not intended as councils.  There are regional gatherings from time to time (e.g. Middle East), but otherwise the model seems to be one-to-one fraternal visits.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2020, 10:14:57 AM »
Did they serve the Liturgy together?  I assume it happened in Addis.  It may have happened since then.  But concelebrating the Liturgy is not common within all our traditions, so while it does happen from time to time, it’s more common for one to celebrate and the others to attend and commune.
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Offline WPM

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2020, 11:36:47 AM »
Can someone explain me are Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (Paulose II) and Jacobite Syrian Christian Church (Thomas I) in communion?
If yes, why we have two Malankara churches in the same area?

I think we take a long look at the source of the church ~ drawing from history and tradition.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2020, 12:24:30 PM »
Is the Jacobite Church the MSOC?

Short answer: yes.

“Jacobite” is actually a derogatory term, but at some point the Indians adopted it without much fuss.  As such, it belongs to both sides as much as the term “Orthodox”.  But the latter is the commonly accepted shorthand way of referring to the MOSC (autocephalous), while by the former is usually meant MSOC.
Gotcha.  I thought Jacobite was a casual reference for a heterodox denomination, the name of which I can't remember right now.   ;D
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

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Offline Father Peter

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2020, 12:29:17 PM »
I think there have been occasions when the Coptic, Armenian and Syrian Patriarchs have celebrated the Liturgy together. And in the various local organisations a proper concelebration takes place.

I have participated in Liturgies with Coptic, Armenian, Syrian, Indian, Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox.
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Offline Servos

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2020, 04:36:01 PM »
Thank you all.
Do Oriental Orthodox receive Communion under both kinds?


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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2020, 04:45:03 PM »
Thank you all.
Do Oriental Orthodox receive Communion under both kinds?

The Body is always intincted with the Blood.  In some traditions, the intincted Body is distributed, in others it is immersed in the chalice and distributed with a spoon (like the EO), and in others the Body is given first and then people drink from the chalice (typically via a spoon).  So the answer is yes, even when it looks like no.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 04:45:33 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline Servos

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2020, 06:09:39 PM »
"H.G.Geevarghese Mar Coorilos Metropolitan"

Why bishops have two names? What is first name and what is second?
If I need to make it short should I use first name or second?
What does "Mar" means and who have the right to used it?

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2020, 06:27:16 PM »
"H.G.Geevarghese Mar Coorilos Metropolitan"

Why bishops have two names? What is first name and what is second?
If I need to make it short should I use first name or second?
What does "Mar" means and who have the right to used it?

This is an Indian quirk*.  In the name above, “Geevarghese” is the person’s surname.  “Mar/Mor” is Syriac for “my lord”: equivalent to Greek “kyr” (typically only bishops are called by this title).  “Coorilos” is the name of the bishop (in this case, Cyril).  The short form of this bishop’s name would be “Mar Coorilos”.

*In the Middle East, this would be “HG Metropolitan Mor Coorilos Geevarghese”.
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Offline orthophys7

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2020, 06:59:06 PM »
To add a bit, the episcopal name given is usually the bishop's baptismal name (in the example given "Geevarghese") or less frequently, his monastic name (in the Syriac tradition, priest-monks are consecrated as bishops) - one example I can think of is LL Catholicos Moran Mor Baselios Augen, whose monastic name was Augen (when as a Metropolitan, was known as Augen Mor Timotheos). 

The name applied after Mor ("Mar" in the East Syriac, an appellation commonly used more in Malankara with its mingling of Syriac with Malayalam but that is another story) is usually a name of a Church Father/Doctor/Great ascetic, ie. Coorilos/Cyril or Gregorios/Gregory or Anthonios/Antony, etc. 

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2020, 08:44:15 PM »
“Jacobite” is actually a derogatory term, but at some point the Indians adopted it without much fuss.
That's funny, itt reminds me of how the proud demonym of my grandma's area ultimately comes from Italian meaning "hostile boor".
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 08:48:20 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Servos

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2020, 08:37:39 AM »
What is official OO Church position about Syriac/Assyrian/Aramean/Chaldean identity?
Is that one nation? Or separate? Do they speak one language with dialects? Or separate languages?
Also, if someone have other opinion he can write it.
Is there some umbrella term which we can use to avoid political incorrectness?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2020, 08:46:20 AM by Servos »

Offline Servos

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2020, 06:35:43 PM »
Why these monks take blessing to wear white robes?
What does this white robes means?


Offline jobin219

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2020, 10:12:53 PM »
What is official OO Church position about Syriac/Assyrian/Aramean/Chaldean identity?
Is that one nation? Or separate? Do they speak one language with dialects? Or separate languages?
Also, if someone have other opinion he can write it.
Is there some umbrella term which we can use to avoid political incorrectness?

I don't think one will find an "official" position from OO communion all together, since it is not something that has any ecclesiastical concern. But, I highly appreciate the following words of Syriac Orthodox Patriarch Mor Ignatius Aphrem II

HH-Mor-Ignatius-Aphrem-II-about-Syriac-language-Suryoyo-Suyoye" border="0
"As far as possible never do evil to anyone: or it will ruin you, your children and your house. Hold on steadfastly to prayer, fasting and works of charity. Do them with faith and devotion ".
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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2020, 10:32:24 PM »
Why these monks take blessing to wear white robes?
What does this white robes means?
They're being ordained as priests?
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2020, 01:13:15 AM »
Why these monks take blessing to wear white robes?
What does this white robes means?

I really want that one insanely tall monk to be named after St John the Dwarf.
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Offline Servos

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2020, 03:40:30 AM »
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 03:44:29 AM by Servos »

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2020, 08:25:23 AM »
Why these monks take blessing to wear white robes?
What does this white robes means?

I really want that one insanely tall monk to be named after St John the Dwarf.
:laugh:
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

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Offline hecma925

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2020, 09:29:48 AM »
What is official OO Church position about Syriac/Assyrian/Aramean/Chaldean identity?
Is that one nation? Or separate? Do they speak one language with dialects? Or separate languages?
Also, if someone have other opinion he can write it.
Is there some umbrella term which we can use to avoid political incorrectness?

I don't think one will find an "official" position from OO communion all together, since it is not something that has any ecclesiastical concern. But, I highly appreciate the following words of Syriac Orthodox Patriarch Mor Ignatius Aphrem II

HH-Mor-Ignatius-Aphrem-II-about-Syriac-language-Suryoyo-Suyoye" border="0


What does "suryoye" mean?
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2020, 04:53:32 PM »
What does "suryoye" mean?

Suryoyo means Syriac.

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2020, 06:33:25 PM »
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2020, 10:07:43 PM »
Who is acting head of The Eritrean Church?
Do we have any news from Abune Antonios?
And why OO world is silent about Abune Antonios position?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 10:08:10 PM by Servos »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2020, 05:22:02 PM »
What is official OO Church position about Syriac/Assyrian/Aramean/Chaldean identity?
Is that one nation? Or separate? Do they speak one language with dialects? Or separate languages?
Also, if someone have other opinion he can write it.
Is there some umbrella term which we can use to avoid political incorrectness?

I don't think one will find an "official" position from OO communion all together, since it is not something that has any ecclesiastical concern. But, I highly appreciate the following words of Syriac Orthodox Patriarch Mor Ignatius Aphrem II

HH-Mor-Ignatius-Aphrem-II-about-Syriac-language-Suryoyo-Suyoye" border="0


What does "suryoye" mean?
What does "Dawronoyo" mean? (suryoye is "Syriacs")
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2020, 05:58:11 PM »
^^ Wikipedia says 'Dawronoye (Syriac: ܕܲܘܪܵܢܵܝܹܐ‎) is a secular, leftist, nationalist movement among the Assyrian people. Ideologically characterized by progressive ideas and including socialist elements, its founding roots can be traced to the late 1980s in the town of Midyat in Turkey. (...) The continued violence had led to a wave of migration of Assyrians towards Europe, leading a group of Assyrians to create an organization that had the main goal of preventing the exodus of Assyrians from the Assyrian homeland. This organization came to be known as "Tukoso Dawronoyo Mothonoyo d’Bethnahrin", translated as the "Patriotic Revolutionary Organization of Bethnahrin". The etymology behind "Dawronoye" shows that the word is understood to mean "revolutionaries" when in fact it turned out to mean "the modern".'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawronoye
 :o

So it's like Arabic thawra (revolution), interesting how 'th' became 'd'
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 06:00:02 PM by Dominika »

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2020, 10:24:36 PM »
So it's like Arabic thawra (revolution), interesting how 'th' became 'd'
Probably a loan, Arabic "th" usually matches Syriac "t". Syrian Arabic has "t" for "th", so they probably switched "t" for "d", which is still change, but might be explained by contrasting secondary articulation. Latin did it with the first loans it took from Greek (so "kyberno" became "guberno", which eventually became "to govern" in English).
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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2020, 07:18:43 AM »
So it's like Arabic thawra (revolution), interesting how 'th' became 'd'
Syrian Arabic has "t" for "th"
And sometimes 's', it depends on the word :)

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2020, 04:15:48 PM »
So it's like Arabic thawra (revolution), interesting how 'th' became 'd'
Syrian Arabic has "t" for "th"
And sometimes 's', it depends on the word :)
Didn't know that! Is there any predictability?
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Offline Sethrak

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2020, 05:50:03 PM »
I think there have been occasions when the Coptic, Armenian and Syrian Patriarchs have celebrated the Liturgy together. And in the various local organisations a proper concelebration takes place.

I have participated in Liturgies with Coptic, Armenian, Syrian, Indian, Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox.




When I was a little boy I heard us spoken of as Oriental Orthodox ~ I was kina offended ~ I still don't understand why that is ~ could you explain Father ```
Իմաստութիւն Հոր Յիսուս՝ տո՝ւր մեզ իաստուփին՝ զբարիս խորհել եւ խոսել եւ գործել առաջի Քո յամենայն ժամ : եւ ի չար խորհրդոց ի բանից եւ ի գործոց   փրկեա  զմեզ՝ ամէն:
Jesus, Wisdom of the Father, give us wisdom, to think, speak and do what is Good before you at all times. And save us from evil thoughts, words and deed, amen.