Author Topic: OO for beginners  (Read 234 times)

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Offline Servos

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OO for beginners
« on: March 26, 2020, 07:38:37 PM »
Can someone explain me are Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (Paulose II) and Jacobite Syrian Christian Church (Thomas I) in communion?
If yes, why we have two Malankara churches in the same area?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2020, 08:56:24 PM »
Can someone explain me are Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (Paulose II) and Jacobite Syrian Christian Church (Thomas I) in communion?
If yes, why we have two Malankara churches in the same area?

They share the same faith, but there is a jurisdictional dispute for many decades now (actually about a century, give or take), so the two are not really in communion with each other, though each is in communion with all the other OO Churches.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2020, 09:09:29 PM »
Is the Jacobite Church the MSOC?   
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

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Offline Servos

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2020, 09:18:58 AM »


Thank you.
Do heads of OO Churches have some synaxis (council, meeting) from time to time?
Coptic, Armenian, Malankara, Syriac, Ethiopian...
Did all of the patriarchs served the Liturgy together in last decades? 

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2020, 10:03:29 AM »
Is the Jacobite Church the MSOC?

Short answer: yes.

“Jacobite” is actually a derogatory term, but at some point the Indians adopted it without much fuss.  As such, it belongs to both sides as much as the term “Orthodox”.  But the latter is the commonly accepted shorthand way of referring to the MOSC (autocephalous), while by the former is usually meant MSOC.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2020, 10:09:56 AM »


Thank you.
Do heads of OO Churches have some synaxis (council, meeting) from time to time?
Coptic, Armenian, Malankara, Syriac, Ethiopian...
Did all of the patriarchs served the Liturgy together in last decades?

The last intentional gathering of all the primates was in Addis Ababa in 1965.  Since then, there have been occasions for gathering all or most in the same place, but these have tended to be special occasions (e.g. patriarchal enthronements, consecration of Chrism), and not intended as councils.  There are regional gatherings from time to time (e.g. Middle East), but otherwise the model seems to be one-to-one fraternal visits.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2020, 10:14:57 AM »
Did they serve the Liturgy together?  I assume it happened in Addis.  It may have happened since then.  But concelebrating the Liturgy is not common within all our traditions, so while it does happen from time to time, it’s more common for one to celebrate and the others to attend and commune.
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Offline WPM

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2020, 11:36:47 AM »
Can someone explain me are Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (Paulose II) and Jacobite Syrian Christian Church (Thomas I) in communion?
If yes, why we have two Malankara churches in the same area?

I think we take a long look at the source of the church ~ drawing from history and tradition.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2020, 12:24:30 PM »
Is the Jacobite Church the MSOC?

Short answer: yes.

“Jacobite” is actually a derogatory term, but at some point the Indians adopted it without much fuss.  As such, it belongs to both sides as much as the term “Orthodox”.  But the latter is the commonly accepted shorthand way of referring to the MOSC (autocephalous), while by the former is usually meant MSOC.
Gotcha.  I thought Jacobite was a casual reference for a heterodox denomination, the name of which I can't remember right now.   ;D
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

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Offline Father Peter

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2020, 12:29:17 PM »
I think there have been occasions when the Coptic, Armenian and Syrian Patriarchs have celebrated the Liturgy together. And in the various local organisations a proper concelebration takes place.

I have participated in Liturgies with Coptic, Armenian, Syrian, Indian, Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox.
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Offline Servos

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2020, 04:36:01 PM »
Thank you all.
Do Oriental Orthodox receive Communion under both kinds?


Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2020, 04:45:03 PM »
Thank you all.
Do Oriental Orthodox receive Communion under both kinds?

The Body is always intincted with the Blood.  In some traditions, the intincted Body is distributed, in others it is immersed in the chalice and distributed with a spoon (like the EO), and in others the Body is given first and then people drink from the chalice (typically via a spoon).  So the answer is yes, even when it looks like no.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 04:45:33 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline Servos

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2020, 06:09:39 PM »
"H.G.Geevarghese Mar Coorilos Metropolitan"

Why bishops have two names? What is first name and what is second?
If I need to make it short should I use first name or second?
What does "Mar" means and who have the right to used it?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2020, 06:27:16 PM »
"H.G.Geevarghese Mar Coorilos Metropolitan"

Why bishops have two names? What is first name and what is second?
If I need to make it short should I use first name or second?
What does "Mar" means and who have the right to used it?

This is an Indian quirk*.  In the name above, “Geevarghese” is the person’s surname.  “Mar/Mor” is Syriac for “my lord”: equivalent to Greek “kyr” (typically only bishops are called by this title).  “Coorilos” is the name of the bishop (in this case, Cyril).  The short form of this bishop’s name would be “Mar Coorilos”.

*In the Middle East, this would be “HG Metropolitan Mor Coorilos Geevarghese”.
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Offline orthophys7

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2020, 06:59:06 PM »
To add a bit, the episcopal name given is usually the bishop's baptismal name (in the example given "Geevarghese") or less frequently, his monastic name (in the Syriac tradition, priest-monks are consecrated as bishops) - one example I can think of is LL Catholicos Moran Mor Baselios Augen, whose monastic name was Augen (when as a Metropolitan, was known as Augen Mor Timotheos). 

The name applied after Mor ("Mar" in the East Syriac, an appellation commonly used more in Malankara with its mingling of Syriac with Malayalam but that is another story) is usually a name of a Church Father/Doctor/Great ascetic, ie. Coorilos/Cyril or Gregorios/Gregory or Anthonios/Antony, etc. 

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: OO for beginners
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2020, 08:44:15 PM »
“Jacobite” is actually a derogatory term, but at some point the Indians adopted it without much fuss.
That's funny, itt reminds me of how the proud demonym of my grandma's area ultimately comes from Italian meaning "hostile boor".
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 08:48:20 PM by RaphaCam »
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