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Author Topic: Conventional Christianity Obsolete  (Read 334 times) Average Rating: 0
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lovetzatziki
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« on: September 17, 2013, 04:08:41 PM »

Does anyone else have the impression that Conventional Christianity(mostly focussing on our branch Eastern Orthodoxy and with extension to all branches of Christianity) is Obsolete ? What I mean is Conventional Christianity presents psychological, anthropological, scientific and sociological(not to say also ethical cause I don't want to involve into that sphere for now) motifes that are no longer actual and have been superseded by modern times' psychology, sociology, anthropology and science, esspecially in our Era of "Illuminism" , "Reason" and "Progress" . I mean the world progressed in 100 years more than it probably did in 2000 of years or more. It is outsdanding to what it happens now. The world progresses now even as we speak in 10 years as it did in the past in maybe houndreds. Just look at all the sophisticated technology. From mobile phones to smart phones, iPads, iPods. From home computer to portable, computers to tablets, etc. The world is evolving as we speak, not just materially, but also psychologically (mentally) , philosophically, anthropologically , etc. Let's stick to psychologically. The problems of today and the mentality of today was totally absent ten or twenty years ago. Heck it was even different five, six or seven years ago. The psychological motifes changed, esspecially considering the framework of the times we are it (the recension) the environment and all the technology(unique technology in the world that didn't existed before). My question is why isn't Christianity also evolving and actualising to factual sciences , psychologies and philosophies of thought and life that brought the progress that we are living into today since the times of "Illuminism" and that we continue to live? Don't you think that we should reinterpret traditions and actualise them to today's train of thought and proven factual biological realities of today? Does anyone else feel this way? How would you imagine a modern, current and actual Christianity to be? Why do you think Christianity is sticking much to the conventional style and to old superseded motifs ? Do you think it has to do with the refusal by exclusion to some (sadly) large group from a higher intelligence? An easier way to manipulate the masses? Why does Christianity continue to think of us in a mannipulative manner, and I mean here esspecially "Christian" countries (like Orthodox countries) , where Christianity is more or less (officially or unofficially) the religion adopted by the country? I've seem many people not taking this sort of clergy as authoritan . And mostly in our revolutional times of realisation , reason and progress, more and more people disconsider their authority. Esspecially intelligent people. Because real authority must have a solid empirical ground.  Real authority is more than something and it is a real empirical relation. Another question is why do some people still continue to regard this type of people as authoritative as long as they act like this? Don't you think our Christianity needs a reformation , and all religion ? In the sense of actualising and purifying old traditions and harmonise the faith and culture of our ancestors, and find the most purest religion , reasonably actualised to the Reasonably motifs of our current times, that also helped produced the most amazing (creatively, inventively and discoverly) speaking progress in the history of human kind? People in all times felt the need to return to the roots in all religions. So the historic religion has suffered some revolutional times, from the begginings of times. It seems to me current religion is incapable to answer to men's needs. What do you say, sincerely inquiring and responding? I invite those who are unwilling to answer sincerly to stay out of it. This is an inquiry of sincerity and realness.

 
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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2013, 04:50:50 PM »

Here's the scoop....

Obsolete?  I don't think so.  But first we have to determine what you mean by traditional Christianity.

If you mean people meeting in homes, avoiding riches, avoiding costly array, tithes going to widows and orphans, women covering their heads (their hair is their glory), wives submitting to their husbands, children who obey and respect parents, the Christians NOT being worldly and setting themselves apart from the world, the Christians not swearing oaths, etc., then no I don't think its obsolete.

If we are talking about adapted religious practices created out of thin air by mystics, then absolutely those are way outdated and really should have not been a part of Christianity to begin with.

Many of these reasons are why the reformation happened.   Unfortunately, the reformation also caused a lot of heresy to come into play as well.  This is why it is important to adhere to the scriptures rather than listen to spontaneously created and adapted church authority passed to us for many years.



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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2013, 05:07:45 PM »

That thread title is way misleading... exactly the thing that a neo-atheist newcomer would pick to see how many hackles they could raise just out of the gate.

Moving on. I don't think there's anything at all that's brand spanking new in the 21st century - just old things reinventing themselves faster and faster. The same goes for problems. Boil them down enough, it all reduces to something that was a problem centuries ago.

And when it comes down to the bare bones... there's nothing conventional about Christianity.
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« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2013, 05:14:03 PM »

I doubt it immensely. "Conventional Christianity" is obsolete because it's heresy. Orthodoxy isn't conventional neither is it obsolete. Orthodoxy hasn't been given a try since the Byzantine empire. Don't just disregard it because RCs, Protestants and Atheists have been running the show.

It was the result of heresy that made this modern world. And in all truth, this modern world isn't "progressive" at all. Let's be honest here, what is "progressive" about mass poverty, Imperialism, imperio-economic land-grabs, warmongering and lawlessness?

I think all of those things were found in Dark Age societies also. Don't give this society too much credit.

If you want a "Reformation" of a religion, become a Muslim or a Protestant those are "Reformations" of Orthodoxy.

And I don't live in an Orthodox country, I live in the land of "freedom and justice for all" America.

Which is a nonsense by the way. Murdering people for economic resources, giving arms to terrorists and plotting with big corporations to keep your own citizenry impoverished is not freedom by any standard.

In fact, the US drones, locks up it's own citizens and gropes them in the airport for the sake of national security. Yikes!

Just yesterday a white cop gunned down a African American male, and shot him 12 times for "looking suspicious". Might I also mention the horrid school shootings that happen in KINDERGARTEN CLASSES that so called "Civilized", "Cultured" and "Progressive" Western Civilization produces?

Yeah right. That's about as "civilized" or "cultured" as strapping a bomb onto children like Hamas does.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 05:23:33 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2013, 05:20:49 PM »

Traditional Christianity has generally been good at updating itself to keep relevant. Often the transition is so complete and seemless that members of a particular generation or time period don't even realize that anything is different from how it was in the past. True, there are hang ups sometimes, but really I don't foresee any of the three great Christian groupings dying out.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 05:21:10 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2013, 07:48:32 PM »

My question is why isn't Christianity also evolving and actualising to factual sciences , psychologies and philosophies of thought and life that brought the progress that we are living into today since the times of "Illuminism" and that we continue to live? Don't you think that we should reinterpret traditions and actualise them to today's train of thought and proven factual biological realities of today? Does anyone else feel this way?

While it is true that we have made great strides in terms of science, technology, philosophy, etc., I don't think the human person has significantly changed since the fall of Adam and Eve.  All of these changes are in terms of how we get stuff done, how we build up the world around us, how we envision our future, but the human person is still the same.  What is essential in the gospel addresses the human person, and then the world around him, because the gospel is about Christ, the one in whose image we are made.

Quote
How would you imagine a modern, current and actual Christianity to be?

I don't have to imagine it: the Orthodox Church. 

Quote
Why do you think Christianity is sticking much to the conventional style and to old superseded motifs ?

Christianity is a revealed religion.  By definition its essentials cannot change, even if its expression varies in different regions among different peoples.  It's not a religion that you can make up as you go along.     

Quote
Do you think it has to do with the refusal by exclusion to some (sadly) large group from a higher intelligence? An easier way to manipulate the masses? Why does Christianity continue to think of us in a mannipulative manner, and I mean here esspecially "Christian" countries (like Orthodox countries) , where Christianity is more or less (officially or unofficially) the religion adopted by the country?

I don't know what the first question means, and I don't take the presuppositions of your other questions as a given. 

Quote
I've seem many people not taking this sort of clergy as authoritan . And mostly in our revolutional times of realisation , reason and progress, more and more people disconsider their authority. Esspecially intelligent people.

Do you think these people are rejecting the authority of the clergy because of their higher intelligence and reasoning capabilities?  I think they reject it because they are distracted by their own desires.  The gospel isn't exactly convenient or conducive to "the good life".  Many times, I don't like the gospel at all.  That has little to do with intelligence. 

Quote
Because real authority must have a solid empirical ground.  Real authority is more than something and it is a real empirical relation.

What does this mean? 

Quote
Another question is why do some people still continue to regard this type of people as authoritative as long as they act like this? Don't you think our Christianity needs a reformation , and all religion ?

I need to become like Christ.  Christ need not and ought not become like me.  That would be a disaster.  So would "reforming" Christianity.  It's been tried before, it's called Protestantism, and it is partly responsible for the mess you think Christianity is in. 

Quote
In the sense of actualising and purifying old traditions and harmonise the faith and culture of our ancestors, and find the most purest religion , reasonably actualised to the Reasonably motifs of our current times, that also helped produced the most amazing (creatively, inventively and discoverly) speaking progress in the history of human kind?

What?

Quote
People in all times felt the need to return to the roots in all religions. So the historic religion has suffered some revolutional times, from the begginings of times. It seems to me current religion is incapable to answer to men's needs.

What do you think would answer men's needs?  Actually, what are men's needs? 

Quote
What do you say, sincerely inquiring and responding? I invite those who are unwilling to answer sincerly to stay out of it. This is an inquiry of sincerity and realness.

Why do you presume that people are not sincere in responding to your posts if they do not respond in the only way you think appropriate?  If you want to dictate how people talk to you, you should probably start your own website, but we're all equal here, and that includes you. 
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lovetzatziki
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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2013, 02:32:37 AM »

That thread title is way misleading... exactly the thing that a neo-atheist newcomer would pick to see how many hackles they could raise just out of the gate.

Moving on. I don't think there's anything at all that's brand spanking new in the 21st century - just old things reinventing themselves faster and faster. The same goes for problems. Boil them down enough, it all reduces to something that was a problem centuries ago.

And when it comes down to the bare bones... there's nothing conventional about Christianity.

Did anyone have this things 200-300 of years ago? This evolution or progress is due to an evolution of a noetical level , and as some would say even of the psyche. Some say the nous is part of the psyche and viceversa. This is what you are missing. This evolution and progress is first internal and it is the materialisation of an internal progress.


 
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lovetzatziki
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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2013, 02:39:27 AM »

I doubt it immensely. "Conventional Christianity" is obsolete because it's heresy. Orthodoxy isn't conventional neither is it obsolete. Orthodoxy hasn't been given a try since the Byzantine empire. Don't just disregard it because RCs, Protestants and Atheists have been running the show.

It was the result of heresy that made this modern world. And in all truth, this modern world isn't "progressive" at all. Let's be honest here, what is "progressive" about mass poverty, Imperialism, imperio-economic land-grabs, warmongering and lawlessness?

I think all of those things were found in Dark Age societies also. Don't give this society too much credit.

If you want a "Reformation" of a religion, become a Muslim or a Protestant those are "Reformations" of Orthodoxy.

And I don't live in an Orthodox country, I live in the land of "freedom and justice for all" America.

Which is a nonsense by the way. Murdering people for economic resources, giving arms to terrorists and plotting with big corporations to keep your own citizenry impoverished is not freedom by any standard.

In fact, the US drones, locks up it's own citizens and gropes them in the airport for the sake of national security. Yikes!

Just yesterday a white cop gunned down a African American male, and shot him 12 times for "looking suspicious". Might I also mention the horrid school shootings that happen in KINDERGARTEN CLASSES that so called "Civilized", "Cultured" and "Progressive" Western Civilization produces?

Yeah right. That's about as "civilized" or "cultured" as strapping a bomb onto children like Hamas does.

Orthodoxy is just as conventional as they could get. It represents one of the flavours of conventional traditional Christianity. I come from an Orthodox country, and it is really sad to see how credule some people can be. Till recently everyone and everything had occult interpretation that leads to all sort of superstitions. Everything in the world has a double occult purpose, meaning and use(meaning even industries, agriculture, etc). Many view this things through occult eyes and mystify almost everything. To me this is not healthy and this culture still has its effect on my mind sadly and I am still a bit superstitious. Anyway the Western world seemed to divorce from this notions.

Not sure what you mean with the poor. You cannot deny the progress of the world. It's obvious . The worst you can accuse the world in certain scenarios is of merciless and immorality. As someone said, science without morals can turn up to be evil. It depends on the use of the world. Nevertheless what is the answer of religion to this?
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lovetzatziki
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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2013, 06:30:35 AM »

My question is why isn't Christianity also evolving and actualising to factual sciences , psychologies and philosophies of thought and life that brought the progress that we are living into today since the times of "Illuminism" and that we continue to live? Don't you think that we should reinterpret traditions and actualise them to today's train of thought and proven factual biological realities of today? Does anyone else feel this way?

While it is true that we have made great strides in terms of science, technology, philosophy, etc., I don't think the human person has significantly changed since the fall of Adam and Eve.  All of these changes are in terms of how we get stuff done, how we build up the world around us, how we envision our future, but the human person is still the same.  What is essential in the gospel addresses the human person, and then the world around him, because the gospel is about Christ, the one in whose image we are made.

Quote
How would you imagine a modern, current and actual Christianity to be?

I don't have to imagine it: the Orthodox Church. 

Quote
Why do you think Christianity is sticking much to the conventional style and to old superseded motifs ?

Christianity is a revealed religion.  By definition its essentials cannot change, even if its expression varies in different regions among different peoples.  It's not a religion that you can make up as you go along.     

Quote
Do you think it has to do with the refusal by exclusion to some (sadly) large group from a higher intelligence? An easier way to manipulate the masses? Why does Christianity continue to think of us in a mannipulative manner, and I mean here esspecially "Christian" countries (like Orthodox countries) , where Christianity is more or less (officially or unofficially) the religion adopted by the country?

I don't know what the first question means, and I don't take the presuppositions of your other questions as a given. 

Quote
I've seem many people not taking this sort of clergy as authoritan . And mostly in our revolutional times of realisation , reason and progress, more and more people disconsider their authority. Esspecially intelligent people.

Do you think these people are rejecting the authority of the clergy because of their higher intelligence and reasoning capabilities?  I think they reject it because they are distracted by their own desires.  The gospel isn't exactly convenient or conducive to "the good life".  Many times, I don't like the gospel at all.  That has little to do with intelligence. 

Quote
Because real authority must have a solid empirical ground.  Real authority is more than something and it is a real empirical relation.

What does this mean? 

Quote
Another question is why do some people still continue to regard this type of people as authoritative as long as they act like this? Don't you think our Christianity needs a reformation , and all religion ?

I need to become like Christ.  Christ need not and ought not become like me.  That would be a disaster.  So would "reforming" Christianity.  It's been tried before, it's called Protestantism, and it is partly responsible for the mess you think Christianity is in. 

Quote
In the sense of actualising and purifying old traditions and harmonise the faith and culture of our ancestors, and find the most purest religion , reasonably actualised to the Reasonably motifs of our current times, that also helped produced the most amazing (creatively, inventively and discoverly) speaking progress in the history of human kind?

What?

Quote
People in all times felt the need to return to the roots in all religions. So the historic religion has suffered some revolutional times, from the begginings of times. It seems to me current religion is incapable to answer to men's needs.

What do you think would answer men's needs?  Actually, what are men's needs? 

Quote
What do you say, sincerely inquiring and responding? I invite those who are unwilling to answer sincerly to stay out of it. This is an inquiry of sincerity and realness.

Why do you presume that people are not sincere in responding to your posts if they do not respond in the only way you think appropriate?  If you want to dictate how people talk to you, you should probably start your own website, but we're all equal here, and that includes you. 

The human person has changed. This evolution is a noetical evolution primarily. I think the problem is the Gospel no longer addresses (or knows how to address) and reaches to the man of the 21st century. Orthodoxy modern ? Can you point to any substantial modern Orthodox apologetics and apologets ? This religion who demonises reason and systematic philosophy/theology the very basics of modernity is modern? Clearly not by doing so.

What I mean authority is more than "a thing" to men. Proven fact in the empiric sociolagical history of humankind. Authority is more than an object is a charisma.

Most of the conventional(traditional views and interpretations) Christianity has been refuted like 1-2 centuries ago. Perhaps it needs to change.

Many of the psychological and anthropomorphical motifes of Christianity have long been refuted. Where is the new stuff?

Exactly when religion looses its charisma people try to get back to the roots. It is also something that is and has happening in Africa. People feel that religion under the centuries has lost the sacredness , message and charisma of their ancestors. If you ask me this is what is happening all over the world, and what has happened since the beggining of times. It's not a bad thing. What is bad is to stick to a dead religion with low and limited charisma and a limited message that no longer corresponds and is actual.

Credulity has anything to do with intelligence or the lack of it. I don't think credulity is healthy. Credulity = superstitionism.

Men needs and desires develop with time.

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