Author Topic: Origen and Tertullian  (Read 13866 times)

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Offline DavidH

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Origen and Tertullian
« on: December 14, 2005, 01:33:36 AM »
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  I have read a lot of the early Christian writings and have always wondered about Origen and Tertullian. I know one had some pretty  unorthodox doctrines while the other ended up as a Montanist outside of the Church- yet they have the greatest body of preserved writings among the pre-Nicene writers. Any ideas as to why that might be? They must have continued to be admired in spite of their errors if their works were copied and preserved through the centuries but, given the later judgement of the Church concerning these men it still seems disproportionate.....

In Christ,
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Offline Bizzlebin

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2005, 08:19:35 PM »
Christ is Among Us!
ÂÂ  I have read a lot of the early Christian writings and have always wondered about Origen and Tertullian. I know one had some prettyÂÂ  unorthodox doctrines while the other ended up as a Montanist outside of the Church- yet they have the greatest body of preserved writings among the pre-Nicene writers. Any ideas as to why that might be? They must have continued to be admired in spite of their errors if their works were copied and preserved through the centuries but, given the later judgement of the Church concerning these men it still seems disproportionate.....

In Christ,
Rd. David

Sure, they were read a lot. Even though they did fall into heresy, they nonetheless provided a lot of Orthodox material. Just as Orthodox saints don't always get it right, so the non-Orthodox don't always get it wrong :)
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2013, 09:20:56 PM »
What is the correct title for Origen and Tertullian in Orthodox Church titles?

Is it "Doctor of the Church"?

I have read different opinions among Orthodox writers on whether they should be called "Doctor of the Church" Учитель Церкви.
http://www.lib.eparhia-saratov.ru/books/17s/sidorov/sidorov1/2.html
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2013, 09:33:34 PM »
I think the terms are heretic and schismatic respectively.  ;D

Actually, I love Origen's writings.  He does get very speculative, but it seems as if he means them to be more of a "thinking out loud" writing as opposed to a dogmatic teaching of doctrine. It is definitely not what you want to read as your first exposure to ante-Nicene writings, or you will come up with some really crazy ideas of what the Church believes.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 09:33:44 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2013, 09:48:11 PM »
Interesting question. Not that I know the answer.

Regarding Origen, I agree. Though if you are too cautious to read his works outright, there is always the Philocalia, excerpts of his writings as put together by Sts. Gregory and Basil.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2013, 09:59:42 PM »
What is the correct title for Origen and Tertullian in Orthodox Church titles?

Is it "Doctor of the Church"?

I have read different opinions among Orthodox writers on whether they should be called "Doctor of the Church" Учитель Церкви.
http://www.lib.eparhia-saratov.ru/books/17s/sidorov/sidorov1/2.html


Well, I've not heard "doctor of the Church" used in an Eastern context No, they should not be referred to as that, because those are teachers of of the Church, that is, Fathers. And, as one became a heretic and the other is anathematized by an ecumenical council, they are not Fathers.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2013, 10:27:02 PM »
Shanghaiski,

Writers who are Orthodox and oppose calling Tertullian a Teacher of the Church give the reason you just mentioned as their justification for their opposition. They propose that he and such others be called Writers of the Church or Scholars of the Church. If you Google Translate the link I just gave it will explain the different views on this. I think it's common though in Orthodox writers in Russia at least to call Tertullian and others Church Teachers, and there are Russian articles that come up mentioning him that way.
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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2013, 10:32:23 PM »
And, as one became a heretic and the other is anathematized by an ecumenical council, they are not Fathers.

No ecumenical council anathematised Origen.  ;)

I think I'm too stupid to appreciate Origen the way most of my classmates did.  But I always felt bad for him that he was posthumously condemned way after he died in full communion with the Church, and I never understood it.  If he could die in good standing with the Church but later be condemned because of what others were doing with his teachings, many other people we revere could similarly be condemned.  But again, perhaps I'm too stupid.    
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2013, 10:37:56 PM »
Don't you dare(!) mention the good bishop from Hippo. Not a word!
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2013, 10:47:42 PM »
My Church hasn't anathematised either Origen or St Augustine.  ;)
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2013, 10:49:48 PM »
My Church hasn't anathematised either Origen or St Augustine.  ;)

You is good people.
"when Mme. Vauquer lay down to rest on the day of M. Goriot's installation, her heart, like a larded partridge, sweltered before the fire of a burning desire to shake off the shroud of Vauquer and rise again as Goriot." - Balzac

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2013, 10:55:12 PM »
My Church hasn't anathematised either Origen or St Augustine.  ;)

You is good people.

Well hold on now...we haven't anathematised the new calendar either.  Are we still good people?  :P
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2013, 11:00:21 PM »
My Church hasn't anathematised either Origen or St Augustine.  ;)

You is good people.

Well hold on now...we haven't anathematised the new calendar either.  Are we still good people?  :P

"We admire your life, but we do not altogether approve your doctrine." - St. Gregory the Theologian, Oration 41.8

Vague enough?  ;D
"when Mme. Vauquer lay down to rest on the day of M. Goriot's installation, her heart, like a larded partridge, sweltered before the fire of a burning desire to shake off the shroud of Vauquer and rise again as Goriot." - Balzac

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2013, 11:18:32 PM »
Thanks, that's quite useful!
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2013, 12:32:46 AM »
I just wouldnt bother with them

Rather spent time reading other fathers than risk getting a heretical doctrine in your head
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2013, 12:35:36 AM »
I just wouldnt bother with them

Rather spent time reading other fathers than risk getting a heretical doctrine in your head

LOL, by that logic don't even think about reading Scripture. 
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2013, 12:47:51 AM »
I just wouldnt bother with them

Rather spent time reading other fathers than risk getting a heretical doctrine in your head

LOL, by that logic don't even think about reading Scripture.  

The Scripture has not been deemed heretical, so i dont know what your talking about
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 12:48:02 AM by Gunnarr »
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2013, 12:58:12 AM »
here read this about Origen and the anathema:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/const2.asp
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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2013, 01:26:37 AM »
The Scripture has not been deemed heretical, so i dont know what your talking about

All the heretics based their teachings on their reading of Scripture.  If they could read it and come up with false doctrines, maybe it's better not to read it, lest we do the same and be led astray.   
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2013, 01:35:51 AM »
The Scripture has not been deemed heretical, so i dont know what your talking about

All the heretics based their teachings on their reading of Scripture.  If they could read it and come up with false doctrines, maybe it's better not to read it, lest we do the same and be led astray.   

No, that makes no sense and I don't see how that in any way has anything to do with the condemned origen. Although It is probably better to read commentary on the bible from a saint than to read it alone without any help. Was it not true that most only knew the bible from it being spoken in the church?

Read my post again:

"I just wouldnt bother with them

Rather spent time reading other fathers than risk getting a heretical doctrine in your head"

I said that I would not bother reading origen. Why would I not bother reading origen? Because he was condemned

"IF anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinaris, Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their impious writings, as also all other heretics already condemned and anathematized by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and by the aforesaid four Holy Synods and [if anyone does not equally anathematize] all those who have held and hold or who in their impiety persist in holding to the end the same opinion as those heretics just mentioned: let him be anathema."

Saint Gregory Palamas says one can read pagan writings as well, but carefully. That does not mean I would read them either, why? Because there is a risk



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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2013, 01:43:35 AM »
The Scripture has not been deemed heretical, so i dont know what your talking about

All the heretics based their teachings on their reading of Scripture.  If they could read it and come up with false doctrines, maybe it's better not to read it, lest we do the same and be led astray.   

No, that makes no sense...

I agree, it makes no sense.  That's why I'm criticising your logic.  :)
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2013, 01:54:35 AM »
Christ is Among Us!
ÂÂ  I have read a lot of the early Christian writings and have always wondered about Origen and Tertullian. I know one had some prettyÂÂ  unorthodox doctrines while the other ended up as a Montanist outside of the Church- yet they have the greatest body of preserved writings among the pre-Nicene writers. Any ideas as to why that might be? They must have continued to be admired in spite of their errors if their works were copied and preserved through the centuries but, given the later judgement of the Church concerning these men it still seems disproportionate.....

In Christ,
Rd. David

Sure, they were read a lot. Even though they did fall into heresy, they nonetheless provided a lot of Orthodox material. Just as Orthodox saints don't always get it right, so the non-Orthodox don't always get it wrong :)


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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2013, 01:56:03 AM »
The Scripture has not been deemed heretical, so i dont know what your talking about

All the heretics based their teachings on their reading of Scripture.  If they could read it and come up with false doctrines, maybe it's better not to read it, lest we do the same and be led astray.    

No, that makes no sense...

I agree, it makes no sense.  That's why I'm criticising your logic.  :)

So, do you disagree to not read him, even though that council says anathema to those who do not say anathema to origen and his writings? Do you agree that it is better to read commentary on a bible rather than the bible itself since it is safer?

This writing is condemned as heretical, therefore do not read it.

then you try to mimic the logic and say,

Heretics get heresy from the bible, therefore do not read it. (implying heresy originates from the bible)


I think you are not using the same logic as I am. I am saying, to be safe, only to read verified saint's writings. You say, to be safe, do not read the bible. That makes no sense and it is not using my logic, since the bible is verified to be sacred scripture, while origens writing is not required to know the faith nor is it sacred scripture.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 01:56:36 AM by Gunnarr »
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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2013, 02:00:27 AM »
Whatever we read, hear, or see should always be filtered through the sieve of Orthodox Teaching and Tradition. That's the difference between the Orthodox and the Protestant. The Protestant uses the sieve of his logic - which is fallible - to understand Scripture. But we use the sieve of the Church, whose Teachings and Traditions are divinely preserved from error. Therefore, we can read Tertullian, Origen, Holy Scripture, etc. and learn much without falling prey to erroneous doctrines.



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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2013, 02:29:04 AM »
So, do you disagree to not read him, even though that council says anathema to those who do not say anathema to origen and his writings?

Whether or not one agrees with the anathema against Origen is not the point.  For most people, it might be better to avoid writings that can confuse.  But there will always need to be some people who are able to read such writings, if only to explain why they are in error, if they are in error.  So no, I don't agree with a blanket prohibition on reading certain things. 

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Do you agree that it is better to read commentary on a bible rather than the bible itself since it is safer?

No.  Read Scripture.  Read Scripture with the Church, of course.  But read Scripture.  Many Orthodox focus more on the patristic writings, liturgical texts, or even the letters and sayings of their favourite monks and all but ignore Scripture.  How backwards and unpatristic.     

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This writing is condemned as heretical, therefore do not read it.

then you try to mimic the logic and say,

Heretics get heresy from the bible, therefore do not read it. (implying heresy originates from the bible)


I think you are not using the same logic as I am. I am saying, to be safe, only to read verified saint's writings. You say, to be safe, do not read the bible. That makes no sense and it is not using my logic, since the bible is verified to be sacred scripture, while origens writing is not required to know the faith nor is it sacred scripture.

You said:

I just wouldnt bother with them

Rather spent time reading other fathers than risk getting a heretical doctrine in your head

My comment was directed toward this. 

It's not like the Fathers had two thousand years' worth of Christian writings accessible through the internet and extensive libraries enabling them to have instant recourse to legitimate and approved sources other than Scripture so that they could teach and "sound Orthodox".  Their exposition of the faith is rooted in Scripture (as it should be), even if they refer to other fathers and teachers: it starts from the Scriptures, and at every level of its unfolding they refer back to the Scriptures.  But the heretics of those days also did the same.  They went to Scripture and found support for their ideas. 

If reading something that may involve the risk of "getting a heretical doctrine in your head" is reason enough to avoid reading it (as you said above), then one can argue that the Bible shouldn't be read.  That it is God's word is not the point: my point is that people read it and often risk "getting a heretical doctrine in their head" because of their misunderstanding or stubbornness.  Just because it is God's word doesn't mean that every reader gets it right...many times they get it dead wrong.  But that is not a reason to stay away from Scripture.  And it's not a reason to stay away from Origen, or St Augustine for that matter.  Read whatever you read with your eyes, ears, and mind open.  Don't read it blindly because the author is a saint or something like that.  Read with understanding.  Accept and retain what is good, pass over for the moment what you don't understand, and if there is anything bad, forget it.  But just because a council hurls an anathema at someone doesn't mean that everything they said and wrote was untouchable.  A council judges and condemns Origen two centuries or so after he dies in communion with the Church and suddenly he's no good?  Tell that to Ss Basil and Gregory.   
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Offline Punch

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2013, 09:22:42 AM »
I think the terms are heretic and schismatic respectively.  ;D

Actually, I love Origen's writings.  He does get very speculative, but it seems as if he means them to be more of a "thinking out loud" writing as opposed to a dogmatic teaching of doctrine. It is definitely not what you want to read as your first exposure to ante-Nicene writings, or you will come up with some really crazy ideas of what the Church believes.

It was the reading of Origen's works while I was a Lutheran that led me to the Orthodox Church.  Believe me, I get FAR more crazy ideas of what the Church supposedly believes here than I ever got from Origen.
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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2013, 09:35:47 AM »
It was the reading of Origen's works while I was a Lutheran that led me to the Orthodox Church.  Believe me, I get FAR more crazy ideas of what the Church supposedly believes here than I ever got from Origen.

:)
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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2013, 11:37:17 AM »
And, as one became a heretic and the other is anathematized by an ecumenical council, they are not Fathers.

No ecumenical council anathematised Origen.  ;)

I think I'm too stupid to appreciate Origen the way most of my classmates did.  But I always felt bad for him that he was posthumously condemned way after he died in full communion with the Church, and I never understood it.  If he could die in good standing with the Church but later be condemned because of what others were doing with his teachings, many other people we revere could similarly be condemned.  But again, perhaps I'm too stupid.    

Theodore of Mopsuestia also died in communion with the Church.
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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2013, 11:56:28 AM »
Theodore of Mopsuestia also died in communion with the Church.

Touché!  :) 
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2013, 12:06:08 PM »
Theodore of Mopsuestia also died in communion with the Church.

Touché!  :) 

And his Mystagogical Catecheses are soul-useful reading too.

Offline lovetzatziki

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2013, 03:47:47 PM »
I heard that Origen is considered Orthodox and that he was not anathemised but some of his teachings are and some that there were wrongly attributed to him(?). He is considered Orthodox because he defended Orthodox doctrines and because he didn't meant to teach heresy as something separated from the Church, more he said that if any of his teachings are wrong let him be forgiven by the Church. Afaik, Origen also put the basics of Philokalia and monasticism, and some people say that "he lived as he spoke and spoke as he lived" . Some say Origen went too far with his theology of the "personal opinion" with the way he allegorise things, but he himself apparently said that if he is wrong let him be refuted by the Church. And yes I think Origen died in communion with the Church.

Offline Punch

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2013, 11:38:55 AM »
I think that the biggest problem that the Church has with Origen is that, following Scripture, his one eyed wonder worm caused him to sin, so he removed some of the parts of his body that he believed were the causes of the sin.  The Church seems to often have problems with those that follow what is written rather than what is conveniently interpreted.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2013, 02:24:18 PM »
I think that the biggest problem that the Church has with Origen is that, following Scripture, his one eyed wonder worm caused him to sin, so he removed some of the parts of his body that he believed were the causes of the sin.  The Church seems to often have problems with those that follow what is written rather than what is conveniently interpreted.

"One eyed snake" I've heard before, but never "wonder worm" until today. 
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2013, 07:01:48 PM »
It is my understanding that the rumors of castration may or may not be accurate.  It doesn't seem to fit Origen's style.
God bless!

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2013, 09:33:48 PM »
Is castration really any man's style? 
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2013, 09:37:02 PM »
Is castration really any man's style? 

Are you sure you want an answer to that?  :-X
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2013, 09:38:10 PM »
Why not?  I'm not receiving Communion tomorrow, and all the breast talk yesterday ruined it for me today, so why get all pious now?  :P
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 09:38:26 PM by Mor Ephrem »
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2013, 09:50:33 PM »
Walt told Jesse about...  [spoilers edited]... I'm not sure I am in any state to be posting right now...  >:( :'(
"when Mme. Vauquer lay down to rest on the day of M. Goriot's installation, her heart, like a larded partridge, sweltered before the fire of a burning desire to shake off the shroud of Vauquer and rise again as Goriot." - Balzac

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2013, 09:53:00 PM »
Walt told Jesse about...  [spoilers edited]... I'm not sure I am in any state to be posting right now...  >:( :'(

No worries.  I don't think I ever posted from Pennsylvania either. 
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2013, 12:58:18 AM »
Walt told Jesse about...  [spoilers edited]... I'm not sure I am in any state to be posting right now...  >:( :'(

No worries.  I don't think I ever posted from Pennsylvania either. 

Link.

Origen wasn't such a bad guy, I don't think.
"when Mme. Vauquer lay down to rest on the day of M. Goriot's installation, her heart, like a larded partridge, sweltered before the fire of a burning desire to shake off the shroud of Vauquer and rise again as Goriot." - Balzac

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2013, 03:09:43 AM »
Tertullian, on the other hand, I've never much liked. Even when he was Catholic he wasn't orthodox, or vice versa. Definitely my least favorite of ante-anti-Nicene fathers. And he was (a) Latin, so he couldn't have been all that good anyway.
"when Mme. Vauquer lay down to rest on the day of M. Goriot's installation, her heart, like a larded partridge, sweltered before the fire of a burning desire to shake off the shroud of Vauquer and rise again as Goriot." - Balzac

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2013, 05:03:46 AM »
Tertullian, on the other hand, I've never much liked. Even when he was Catholic he wasn't orthodox, or vice versa. Definitely my least favorite of ante-anti-Nicene fathers. And he was (a) Latin, so he couldn't have been all that good anyway.

Specifics? Just curious about what in particular you don't like. I don't really know enough about him to have an opinion.


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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2013, 07:24:39 PM »
Evagrius of Pontus beats Origen and Tertullian any day, single-handedly.
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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2013, 08:50:51 PM »
Evagrius of Pontus beats Origen and Tertullian any day, single-handedly.

And he's a saint! 
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2013, 10:45:58 PM »
Do either have a special title in Orthodoxy? I read that Tertullian is called the Founder of Western Theology. But maybe that is just Wikipedia picking up what a handful of modern writers called him?
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Offline lovetzatziki

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2013, 06:11:22 AM »
I think that the biggest problem that the Church has with Origen is that, following Scripture, his one eyed wonder worm caused him to sin, so he removed some of the parts of his body that he believed were the causes of the sin.  The Church seems to often have problems with those that follow what is written rather than what is conveniently interpreted.

I read some Origen in my life, and recently started reading some version of The First Principles or On the Principles. That book is an insult to Origen. I don't think it was writen by him. It tries to copy his style but failes. It many things it even contradicts some of his opinion about exegesis and it is way too superstitious in the wrong way. My call : It is a fake! (At least the version I found). I would appreciate if someone can find me an online reading of The Principles.

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2013, 05:59:13 PM »
Evagrius of Pontus beats Origen and Tertullian any day, single-handedly.

And he's a saint! 

No.

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2013, 06:00:08 PM »
It is my understanding that the rumors of castration may or may not be accurate.  It doesn't seem to fit Origen's style.

It's almost certainly slander.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2013, 06:43:53 PM »
Evagrius of Pontus beats Origen and Tertullian any day, single-handedly.

And he's a saint! 

No.

He's revered as a Saint by the Armenian Church (feast day 11 February/first week of December?). I don't know about the rest of the OO communion. Fr. Gabriel Bunge would agree.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 06:48:54 PM by Romaios »

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2013, 07:45:02 PM »
Evagrius of Pontus beats Origen and Tertullian any day, single-handedly.

And he's a saint! 

No.

He's revered as a Saint by the Armenian Church (feast day 11 February/first week of December?). I don't know about the rest of the OO communion. Fr. Gabriel Bunge would agree.

I always knew those Armenians were up to something.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2013, 11:21:11 PM »
Do either have a special title in Orthodoxy? I read that Tertullian is called the Founder of Western Theology. But maybe that is just Wikipedia picking up what a handful of modern writers called him?

No special title.
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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2013, 11:23:04 PM »
Evagrius of Pontus beats Origen and Tertullian any day, single-handedly.

And he's a saint! 

No.

Bishop Alexander (Golitsyn) recounted an anecdote about an Athonite monk who believed Evagrius to be a saint because only a saint could write about the spiritual life to such a degree and depth as he did.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2013, 11:23:50 PM »
Evagrius of Pontus beats Origen and Tertullian any day, single-handedly.

And he's a saint! 

No.


He's revered as a Saint by the Armenian Church (feast day 11 February/first week of December?). I don't know about the rest of the OO communion. Fr. Gabriel Bunge would agree.

I always knew those Armenians were up to something.

Kind of makes you wonder what else they're keeping under those pointy hoods.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 11:24:10 PM by Shanghaiski »
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2013, 08:14:49 AM »
I think that the biggest problem that the Church has with Origen is that, following Scripture, his one eyed wonder worm caused him to sin, so he removed some of the parts of his body that he believed were the causes of the sin.  The Church seems to often have problems with those that follow what is written rather than what is conveniently interpreted.

I read some Origen in my life, and recently started reading some version of The First Principles or On the Principles. That book is an insult to Origen. I don't think it was writen by him. It tries to copy his style but failes. It many things it even contradicts some of his opinion about exegesis and it is way too superstitious in the wrong way. My call : It is a fake! (At least the version I found). I would appreciate if someone can find me an online reading of The Principles.
Say what?  ???

On First Principles
is Origen's most well known work. What possible basis other than your personal opinion do you have to support such a notion?
God bless!

Offline lovetzatziki

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2013, 03:50:43 PM »
I think that the biggest problem that the Church has with Origen is that, following Scripture, his one eyed wonder worm caused him to sin, so he removed some of the parts of his body that he believed were the causes of the sin.  The Church seems to often have problems with those that follow what is written rather than what is conveniently interpreted.

I read some Origen in my life, and recently started reading some version of The First Principles or On the Principles. That book is an insult to Origen. I don't think it was writen by him. It tries to copy his style but failes. It many things it even contradicts some of his opinion about exegesis and it is way too superstitious in the wrong way. My call : It is a fake! (At least the version I found). I would appreciate if someone can find me an online reading of The Principles.
Say what?  ???

On First Principles
is Origen's most well known work. What possible basis other than your personal opinion do you have to support such a notion?

From what I have heard there were some falsified Origenist writings. That's what. And I have read parts and homilies of Origen they are so full of spirit and live and meaning and big pictures and everything. This ones are not, they are entirely substanceless exactly like the oposite of what Origen's style trully was. Plus Origen always emphasided on the moral and allegorical hermeneutics and explanations and he was great! Nothing like that in that writing.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2013, 09:56:44 AM »
From what I have heard there were some falsified Origenist writings. That's what. And I have read parts and homilies of Origen they are so full of spirit and live and meaning and big pictures and everything. This ones are not, they are entirely substanceless exactly like the oposite of what Origen's style trully was.

Not falsified (as in entirely counterfeited) - interpolated/purged here and there maybe. The complete original text was not preserved, so we have to rely on Latin translations by St. Jerome and his buddy Rufinus. They were both Origenists first, but the former turned against him after meeting St. Epiphanius. Most scholars assume St. Jerome's translation to be more reliable than Rufinus', who would have tried to defend his master by watering down potentially heretical bits in translation.

Your argument is silly - it assumes that an author must be confined to a single genre (the homily).

Plus Origen always emphasided on the moral and allegorical hermeneutics and explanations and he was great! Nothing like that in that writing.

Quote from: Origen, De principiis, Book IV
8. Having spoken thus briefly on the subject of the divine inspiration of the holy Scriptures, it is necessary to proceed to the (consideration of the) manner in which they are to be read and understood, seeing numerous errors have been com­mitted in consequence of the method in which the holy documents ought to be examined; not having been discovered by the multitude. For both the hardened in heart, and the ignorant persons belonging to the circumcision, have not believed on our Saviour, thinking that they are follow­ing the language of the prophecies re­specting Him, and not perceiving in a manner palpable to their senses that He had proclaimed liberty to the captives, nor that He had built up what they truly con­sider the city of God, nor cut off "the chariots of Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem," nor eaten butter and honey, and, before knowing or preferring the evil, had selected the good.(...)

9. Now the cause, in all the points pre­viously enumerated, of the false opinions, and of the impious statements or ignorant assertions about God, appears to be nothing else than the not understanding the Scripture according to its spiritual meaning, but the interpretation of it agree­ably to the mere letter. And therefore, to those who believe that the sacred books are not the compositions of men, but that they were composed by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, agreeably to the will of the Father of all things through Jesus Christ, and that they have come down to us, we must point out the ways (of interpreting them) which appear (correct) to us, who cling to the standard of the heavenly Church of Jesus Christ according to the succession of the apostles. Now, that there are certain mystical economies made known by the holy Scriptures, all— even the most simple of those who adhere to the word— have believed; but what these are, candid and modest individuals confess that they know not. If, then, one were to be perplexed about the intercourse of Lot with his daughters, and about the two wives of Abraham, and the two sisters married to Jacob, and the two handmaids who bore him children, they can return no other answer than this, that these are mysteries not understood by us. Nay, also, when the (description of the) fitting out of the tabernacle is read, believing that what is written is a type, they seek to adapt what they can to each particular related about the tabernacle,— not being wrong so far as regards their belief that the tabernacle is a type of something, but erring sometimes in adapting the descrip­tion of that of which the tabernacle is a type, to some special thing in a manner worthy of Scripture. And all the history that is considered to tell of marriages, or the begetting of children, or of wars, or any histories whatever that are in circula­tion among the multitude, they declare to be types; but of what in each individual instance, partly owing to their habits not being thoroughly exercised— partly, too, owing to their precipitation— sometimes, even when an individual does happen to be well trained and clear-sighted, owing to the excessive difficulty of discovering things on the part of men—the nature of each particular regarding these (types) is not clearly ascertained.

10. And what need is there to speak of the prophecies, which we all know to be filled with enigmas and dark sayings? And if we come to the Gospels, the exact understanding of these also, as being the mind of Christ, requires the grace that was given to him who said, "But we have the mind of Christ, that we might know the things freely given to us by God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Spirit teaches." And who, on read­ing the revelations made to John, would not be amazed at the unspeakable mys­teries therein concealed, and which are evident (even) to him who does not com­prehend what is written? And to what person, skilful in investigating words, would the Epistles of the Apostles seem to be clear and easy of understanding, since even in them there are countless numbers of most profound ideas, which, (issuing forth) as by an aperture, admit of no rapid com­prehension? And therefore, since these things are so, and since innumerable indi­viduals fall into mistakes, it is not safe in reading (the Scriptures) to declare that one easily understands what needs the key of knowledge, which the Saviour declares is with the lawyers. And let those answer who will not allow that the truth was with these before the advent of Christ, how the key of knowledge is said by our Lord Jesus Christ to be with those who, as they allege, had not the books which contain the secrets of knowledge, and perfect mys­teries. For His words run thus: "Woe unto you, you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge: you have not entered in yourselves, and them that were entering in you hindered."

11. The way, then, as it appears to us, in which we ought to deal with the Scrip­tures, and extract from them their mean­ing, is the following, which has been ascer­tained from the Scriptures themselves. By Solomon in the Proverbs we find some such rule as this enjoined respecting the divine doctrines of Scripture: "And portray them in a threefold manner, in counsel and knowledge, to answer words of truth to them who propose them to you." The individual ought, then, to portray the ideas of holy Scripture in a threefold manner upon his own soul; in order that the simple man may be edified by the "flesh," as it were, of the Scripture, for so we name the obvious sense; while he who has ascended a certain way (may be edified) by the "soul," as it were. The perfect man, again, and he who resem­bles those spoken of by the apostle, when he says, "We speak wisdom among them that are perfect, but not the wisdom of the world, nor of the rulers of this world, who come to nought; but we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God has ordained before the ages, unto our glory," (may receive edification) from the spiritual law, which has a shadow of good things to come. For as man consists of body, and soul, and spirit, so in the same way does Scripture, which has been arranged to be given by God for the salvation of men.

Source
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 10:04:13 AM by Romaios »

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Origen and Tertullian
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2013, 10:04:49 AM »
I think that the biggest problem that the Church has with Origen is that, following Scripture, his one eyed wonder worm caused him to sin, so he removed some of the parts of his body that he believed were the causes of the sin.  The Church seems to often have problems with those that follow what is written rather than what is conveniently interpreted.

I read some Origen in my life, and recently started reading some version of The First Principles or On the Principles. That book is an insult to Origen. I don't think it was writen by him. It tries to copy his style but failes. It many things it even contradicts some of his opinion about exegesis and it is way too superstitious in the wrong way. My call : It is a fake! (At least the version I found). I would appreciate if someone can find me an online reading of The Principles.
Say what?  ???

On First Principles
is Origen's most well known work. What possible basis other than your personal opinion do you have to support such a notion?

From what I have heard there were some falsified Origenist writings. That's what. And I have read parts and homilies of Origen they are so full of spirit and live and meaning and big pictures and everything. This ones are not, they are entirely substanceless exactly like the oposite of what Origen's style trully was. Plus Origen always emphasided on the moral and allegorical hermeneutics and explanations and he was great! Nothing like that in that writing.
On First Principles was written to a different audience.  Homilies are for laymen, On First Principles was written for theologians.  To my knowledge, no serious scholar has doubted the authenticity of Origen's authorship.
God bless!