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Author Topic: Jurisdiction Hopping/Moving  (Read 2117 times) Average Rating: 0
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Elisha
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« on: March 07, 2003, 03:43:18 PM »

It was discussed before in some other thread that changing jurisdictions often is "bad".  Well, I'm curious about what people think here about this - which I think can be (but necessarily) hopping with a twist.  I'm asking this more to the point of it being desirable (or not) of being under a bishop.

Say, for example, one has been a member of a certain parish for several years, but for various reasons (family, job, etc.) must or wants to move to a different city/state.  I grew up in a parish that is entirely convert - converting under the American diocese of a certain foreign Patriarchate (hint hint).  It is the mindset of many of these parishoners (from my observation) to only conceive of moving to locations (if one wants/needs) where these parishes are located (i.e. one can only move to cities x, y or z).  These people think that they're "not allowed"I think this is just plain silly and narrow minded.  There are great parishes around the country in every jurisdiction.  Partially to the point I'm asking this is the point someone has made in being obedient to a certain bishop - which obviously wouldn't happen if one changed jurisdictions.
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« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2003, 04:30:44 PM »

Elisha, Just because you move, does not mean that you have to change jurisdictions. i.e. at my ROCOR church we have Serbian Orthodox and Old Calendar Greek Orthodox that attend, confess and commune with us. They remain members of their jurisdiction while coming to our church because of their location.

The only reason you would have to change jurisdiction to commune is if the local church did not allow communing of your jurisdiction.

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Elisha
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« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2003, 06:57:24 PM »

Elisha, Just because you move, does not mean that you have to change jurisdictions. i.e. at my ROCOR church we have Serbian Orthodox and Old Calendar Greek Orthodox that attend, confess and commune with us. They remain members of their jurisdiction while coming to our church because of their location.

The only reason you would have to change jurisdiction to commune is if the local church did not allow communing of your jurisdiction.

So, what does it mean to you to change jurisdictions?  I grew up in that jurisdiction that I mentioned (being intentionally vague, but I'm sure you can figure it out), but have attended OCA parishes (which I prefer) for the last 7 years.  I think it's more important to be Orthodox than Russian, Greek, etc., but how does this impact some so-called obedience to a bishop - especially since on is a lay-person?
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« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2003, 11:28:16 PM »

Elisha -

I have often wondered the same thing.

And I don't have the answer yet, either.

I tend to think that the Orthodox Church is the Orthodox Church is the Orthodox Church . . .

I don't like all this American mess of concurrent and often competing jurisdictions.

For example, I must drive about an hour to attend Divine Liturgy. I love my church, but I sure would like it if there was one closer to me.

Actually there is one that is only about 30 minutes away, but it is Greek Orthodox. I went there once, but the whole liturgy was in Greek. I understood Kyrie Eleison, but that was about it!

The people were very nice, but I like to understand what's going on.

I wish we had just one autocephalous Church here in North America, but I guess that will require another ecumenical council (which I understand has been in the works for years).
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« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2003, 11:57:40 PM »

Dear Friends in Christ,

The laiety do not have to belong to any jurisdiction. You can go to another parish without the blessing of your bishop.  The only people I know who would tell you otherwise are those who rely on your financial subscription.

Also what is this jurisdiction thing? We are primarily Orthodox. Of course we take a blessing from our priest while we are in his parish and I would expect that he would bless us to leave for another.  But he cannot bind you in anyway.

If you are a Traditional Orthodox then presumably you would seek a similar parish in your new location.  If you can't find one then you have to compromise, hoping to find a better option, by the grace of God.

My concern is when someone has an argument with his priest and defames the latter, comes to me because I might be better - such a person I send back to his priest for a recommendation (not canonical release), since I do not wish to inherit this problem, not for personal reasons but because I have to protect the Bishop's flock, for whom I am answerable.

Yours in Christ,
Fr Serafim
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Elisha
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2003, 12:40:10 AM »

Father Serafim,

What about Readers and Sub-deacons then?
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2003, 12:42:49 AM »

[I wish we had just one autocephalous Church here in North America, but I guess that will require another ecumenical council (which I understand has been in the works for years).]

We already do have one autocephalous Church here in the USA.  It's called the OCA.

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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2003, 12:23:39 AM »

Quote
From Orthodoc: We already do have one autocephalous Church here in the USA.  It's called the OCA.

I should have said one universally recognized and undisputed autocephalous Orthodox Church.

I have nothing against the OCA, believe me, and I was aware of its status.

But I was referring to having just one and only one American Orthodox Church and our own Patriarch.
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2003, 02:19:00 AM »

Dear Elisha,

According to Greek Traditionalists, readers are similar to laity. In the Russian Church they are like higher clergy, subject to the Bishop.  Same goes for subdeacons.

Yours in Christ,

Fr Serafim
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2003, 03:05:55 AM »

Things seem very complicated in the USA.

So you can't just go to any parish? I have seen that from hat I read in this and other forums, the parish comunities seem very close and make a distiction with visitors. Why is this that way?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2003, 03:06:27 AM by Remie » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2003, 04:16:20 AM »

Remie

Quote
So you can't just go to any parish?  

Obviously if your Priest/Confessor/Spiritual Father tells you differently, then you should listen to him. Otherwise, it's pretty wide open (though of course some decisions are more beneficial to our souls than others... constant movement can be harmful). The "walk" that both my wife and I have had contained a lot of outside factors that made us move here and there, and so it's probably a pretty unique situation (though I think it might give comfort to those who move once or twice between Churches/Jurisdictions). I've moved between towns 5 times since I became a catechumen, and my wife has moved 4 times; we just made the best of the situation wherever we found ourselves.

The Churches I first attended were OCA, but after I moved to Altoona I settled down in the Antiochian Church for a while; I still sometimes attended two OCA Churches though (totally about 1/4 of the services in an average month). My wife (then fiancee) was OCA at the time.

Even after my wife (then fiancee) and I had already decided to move towards ROCOR, we couldn't attend a ROCOR Church. There were no ROCOR Churches around locally that I could attend, and my wife was close to one, but was forbidden by her self-appointed Spiritual Father from attending a ROCOR parish. So... we got married in an Antiochian parish, by an Antiochian Priest we both respected (in Greensburg).

After we were married, we attended an Antiochian parish (in Altoona) for a short while, and would have attended an OCA one had the priest not been so hard to contact and on a rotating schedule. We had basically made the decision by this time to become ROCOR, but there was no local ROCOR parish to attend, so we just made the best of the situation. Eventually we ceased participation at the Antiochian parish as well, but that's a story for a different thread. Wink

When we move to Pittsburgh next week (another move, yay  Grin Roll Eyes ), we'll start attending the ROCOR Church in Mckeesport, perhaps weekly or perhaps monthly, depending on where we end up in town. If it's to the south, we'll attend every service at the ROCOR Church. If we end up north of town, we'll probably attend the ROCOR Church once a month, and attend the services at the Romanian monastery (under the OCA) the other times (when they have services, though they don't have a permanent Priest, so they sometimes travel on Sunday to other Churches).

There is much to be said for consistency, and settling down into the life of one parish. I don't think you should go against your conscience or mind, however, if you feel like you should/need to move, whether it be to another Church, or another Jurisdiction. As the monk on Saint Herman's Island said: "I'm in Christ's Jurisdiction".

Justin

PS. As though all that wasn't bad enough, lol, I've also attended a Carpatho-Russian Church, a Greek Church, and a couple Greek monasteries. I wanted to attend a Serbian Church, but alas, that never worked out.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2003, 04:46:18 AM by Paradosis » Logged

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