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Author Topic: Chosing a proper Jurisdiction  (Read 15645 times) Average Rating: 0
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Salpy
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« Reply #90 on: December 24, 2005, 05:31:09 PM »

I'm sorry, are OO's only allowed to post in the OO forum?  If so, somebody please tell me, since that would also make me a trouble maker. (Yeah, I'm bad.   Cool)  If we are restricted to posting in the OO folder, I'd like to know.

Also, Matthew's original post on this thread was neither a question, nor loaded.  He was merely offering a church for Truth or Bust to consider, like everyone else was doing.  I have looked at Truth or Bust's postings on this thread and I can't see where he said his search is only limited to EO churches.  One may have made that assumption since that is what he has considered so far, but his last post showed he did not mind being told of the Indian Orthodox Church.  In any event, it was up to him, not others, to accept or reject Matthew's offer.  There was nothing in Matthew's original post which indicated he was trying to open up a polemical discussion or even to "sheep steal" and the reaction he received was inappropriate.

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« Reply #91 on: December 24, 2005, 06:45:38 PM »

It would be nice if people could extol their Churches and faith without needing to slam the others.  If one feels like participating in polemical discussions between the EO-OO - using logic, fact, research, etc - then they should PM Robert and ask to be part of the private discussion board:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=7834.0

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« Reply #92 on: December 25, 2005, 07:03:14 AM »

Glory be to Christ for the Indian Church!ÂÂ  

Thank you. I hope that you come again in the future.  Cool

Peace.
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« Reply #93 on: December 25, 2005, 07:06:54 AM »

Matthew777 lives far away in the land of blissful ignorance..simultaneously a blessing and a curse.  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚Â

Blissful ignorance? St. Gregorios is a very happy place and that is a reality.ÂÂ  Cool
My recommendation of the Malankara Church is, of course, based upon personal experience as a Catholic convert to the Orthodox faith. Quite honestly, I should have become a member much sooner in my life.

Peace.
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« Reply #94 on: December 25, 2005, 07:09:20 AM »

In any event, it was up to him, not others, to accept or reject Matthew's offer.ÂÂ  

Exactly. If one's mind hasn't been influenced by the straw man of Oriental Orthodoxy being unorthodox or heretical, it most certainly should be considered a live option.
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« Reply #95 on: December 25, 2005, 12:51:00 PM »

It's probably best that potential converts see the bickering and name-calling now... that way when they convert and see it later on they'll have no excuse for leavingÂÂ  GrinÂÂ  
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« Reply #96 on: December 25, 2005, 04:06:11 PM »

It's probably best that potential converts see the bickering and name-calling now... that way when they convert and see it later on they'll have no excuse for leaving  Grin 

I am quite happy with my ROCOR parish.  I look at all of the various ethnic Jurisdictions and think to myself that Orthodoxy is doing its job in preaching the Gospel to everybody on earth.   I think it is a good thing!

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #97 on: December 26, 2005, 01:40:00 PM »

It's probably best that potential converts see the bickering and name-calling now... that way when they convert and see it later on they'll have no excuse for leavingÂÂ  GrinÂÂ  

Reminds me of what and Orthodox Bishop told His Grace Bishop Kallistos Ware back when he was considering converting to Orthodoxy, that the Orthodox Church may be the foundation of all Truth and the only Church established by our Lord, but that under no circumstances should he ever consider joining it.  Cheesy
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« Reply #98 on: December 27, 2005, 12:19:29 AM »

I am quite happy with my ROCOR parish.ÂÂ  

That is quite good. Russian Orthodoxy has a strong and rich tradition that has been revived since the fall of communism.
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« Reply #99 on: January 13, 2006, 02:39:03 PM »

Just thought I'd update this topic with some information I received from my Priest.  I was able to spend some time with him over the Nativity events and we had a discussion on ROCOR and the MP.  He told me the latest position just in is that Met LAURUS will not join with the MP if it means schism within ROCOR.
There have been a lot of complaints and evidently it seems there would be a sizable exodus of both Priests and laity if this were to occur.

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #100 on: January 13, 2006, 03:20:51 PM »

Wow...I gotta reply to this...

re: the OCA and Autocephaly

Who honestly in both word and action sees the OCA as an autocephalous church?

I do!ÂÂ  I'm a reader in said church, and I consider it to be completely and totally autocephalous.ÂÂ  What does that mean?ÂÂ  It means it is self-governing, allowed by its (former) mother church to elect its own metropolitan/bishops.ÂÂ  That's it.ÂÂ  It no longer has to answer to Moscow for anything.

Now, is it the "sole jurisdiction" in America?ÂÂ  No, and it does not claim that it would even try to be such if and when a jurisdictional union of SCOBA jurisdictions happens.ÂÂ  The fact that there are patriarchates who do not recognize the OCA as the sole heir apparant to American Orthodoxy (something we ourselves don't claim!) just means that there's a jurisdictional dispute (which began when Moscow came over to Alaska, which the EP obviously thought they had no right to do in the first place); it does NOT mean that the OCA is not self-governing, which is the sole definition of "autocephalous."

Whether Moscow should have done what they did is a moot point now; what is apparant now is this: the OCA was canonically granted autocephaly by her mother Church (who had every right to do such) and now exists as a self-governing body that will not go away, even though she overlaps and is overlapped by several other jurisdictions here, themselves in varying degrees of autonomy/autocephaly from their own mother Churches.ÂÂ  The main issue for us here is this: given that we are facing a situation in Britain/the US that is completely unprecedented (afaik--I could be wrong), we must now strive for a single, unified, American jurisdiction, and this can only be done when the archdioceses (sp?) are granted self-governance by their mother churches and themselves elect to merge jurisdictions.ÂÂ  That last part is most likely a pipe dream for now, with the EP not about to grant the GOAA any kind of autonomy, istm, and with the abovementioned scandal (along with other things) being obstacles to jurisdictional unity (which, btw, is not to be confused with ethnic homogeny).

None of this, however, stops the OCA from being the self-governing Church that she most certainly is.
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« Reply #101 on: January 13, 2006, 03:49:19 PM »

I don't think that "this can only be done when the archdioceses (sp?) are granted self-governance by their mother churches and themelves elect to merge jurisdictions."  There have been movements behind the scenes over the last 30 years to have the jurisdictions merged either as autocephalous or as a "daughter church," with varying parties at fault for the failure of the plans.

I think I've said it before, but it bears repeating: as we are now, under SCOBA, we can unite all of our various ministries except the hierarchical structure - so we should.  As we have done with our missions, charities, OCF and more, we should move towards uniting the various ministries of the different archdioceses under the SCOBA umbrella - youth, young adult, prison ministry, and even some administrative functions - pensions, health benefits, clergy assignment, seminary curriculum.  Once we have done all this, then the only thing that will be non-unified is the hierarchical structure, which will be easier to unite then, since the jurisdictions by then will be virtually united.

In that time, while the ministries are being united, a group of clergy and laity can be working hard on proposing a redistricting of the parishes in the case of jurisdictional unity, since there will need to be new dioceses, metropolises, and archdioceses formed, and the existing bishops will need to be shuffled to fill the new dioceses (by my calculations, we will actually need 3-4 more bishops to fill the openings).  This way, we can provide to the various "mother churches" an actual, well-documented and thought-out plan for unity, instead of the pipe dream.

{/rant}
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« Reply #102 on: January 13, 2006, 06:43:10 PM »

ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia?) All these different names and titles for Orthodox churches! My Church is the Russian Orthodox church in exile. Can someone tell me if this is the same as ROCOR? Also, what's wrong with ROCOR?! I understand that at some point the Russians had a little disagreement as some made a kind of agreement with the communists in charge, and some didn't want anything to do with communists, but I thought that was all over now?!
I was surprised to hear that any Russian Orthodox was denied communion in a Greek church, in my experience, the Greek Church is usually the most accepting and least strict of all Orthodox churches.
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« Reply #103 on: January 13, 2006, 07:25:07 PM »

ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia?) All these different names and titles for Orthodox churches! My Church is the Russian Orthodox church in exile. Can someone tell me if this is the same as ROCOR? Also, what's wrong with ROCOR?! I understand that at some point the Russians had a little disagreement as some made a kind of agreement with the communists in charge, and some didn't want anything to do with communists, but I thought that was all over now?!
I was surprised to hear that any Russian Orthodox was denied communion in a Greek church, in my experience, the Greek Church is usually the most accepting and least strict of all Orthodox churches.

The Russian Church in Exile and ROCOR are one and the same.

Some say that ROCOR merely has an administrative problem with other Orthodox Churches.  There are those who claim that there is more at work than this, that there are issues of canonicity.  It sometimes looks kind of murky.  Personally, I would never say that ROCOR people are not Orthodox people.  Unless of course they act and believe like they are not, but then one would say that of anyone claiming to be Orthodox who wasn't as far as their beliefs and actions were concerned. 

It's kind of a weird situation, anyway.  ROCOR is in full communion with the Serbian Church, as well as the Jerusalem Patriarchate, as far as I know.  So why can't ROCOR people commune in other Churches sometimes?  Well, ROCOR itself refuses to give communion to others who are  in communion with those they term "Sergianist": those who are in communion with Moscow, which they claim has given in to communism and is therefore not really the true Russian Church in one sense.  I'm sure that there are others here who can explain the situation much better than I.   It's all a bit too "traditionalist" for me, but there are others who disagree.  And there's much more to the story than this, unfortunately.  A very complex tale indeed.  I think we should all pray that ROCOR and the MP resolve their differences soon.

James Bob
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« Reply #104 on: January 14, 2006, 12:09:29 AM »

I joined this forum because the title read: Your home on the internet for Orthodox Christianity.  when someone asks about jurisdictions they mean Orthodox not non-Orthodox.  As for recommending the Indian Church - this is not Orthodox, simple, period.  That fringe people want to call themselves Orthodox is their affair - but Orthodox they aint.
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« Reply #105 on: January 14, 2006, 02:16:30 AM »

Quote
None of this, however, stops the OCA from being the self-governing Church that she most certainly is.

Which really wasn't what I had addressed in my post.  The Pan-Orthodox world does NOT view the OCA as an autocephalous Church.  The number of parishes still part of the Moscow Patriarchate in this country shows how Moscow views the OCA...

As for the matter of actually being self governing - my synod has governed itself for many years now.... but that makes us neither autonomous nor autocephalous. 
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« Reply #106 on: January 14, 2006, 08:46:56 AM »

Which really wasn't what I had addressed in my post.  The Pan-Orthodox world does NOT view the OCA as an autocephalous Church.  The number of parishes still part of the Moscow Patriarchate in this country shows how Moscow views the OCA...

You're attempting to equate what's going on now--with our "free for all" style of jurisdictional overlapping norm--with the clear-cut, right-off-the-bat establishment of a sole jurisdiction in a new area.  It would have been nice if this had happened--the Russians coming over and establishing "first contact" and letting that be that--but the EP disputed this, and so now we have the current mess, with each laying claim to America and everyone else jumping on the bandwagon and establishing their own jurisdiction as well.  I just don't think the two are comparable.  Again, autocephalous in this case =/= sole rights to the territory.  It just means "stepped away from the mother Church and governs itself so as to be able to act with other autonomous/autocephalous archdioceses (what is the plural of archdiocese?!) and form one jurisdictional structure."  That's our situation, and it's unique.  The fact that the MP still has parishes as representatives of his here in the US doesn't mean they're renegging on their proclamation that we are totally independent of them.

Quote
As for the matter of actually being self governing - my synod has governed itself for many years now.... but that makes us neither autonomous nor autocephalous.

The GOAA can elect its own metropolitan/episcopate without any input or approval of the EP or Greece?  Huh.  If that's true, I didn't realize you were autocephalous, I'm sorry...
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« Reply #107 on: January 14, 2006, 10:36:06 AM »

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America has an Eparchial Synod which, by def (I'm pretty sure of this, but GiC is better equipped to answer) cannot elect its own members - the Patriarchal Synod elects all hierarchs for our Archdiocese, following a clear set of existing prerequisites that have been set forth (minimum # of years serving in America, etc.).
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« Reply #108 on: January 14, 2006, 10:44:07 AM »

Quote
The GOAA can elect its own metropolitan/episcopate without any input or approval of the EP or Greece?  Huh.  If that's true, I didn't realize you were autocephalous, I'm sorry...

While I do have some ties to some monasteries under the EP I am a member of the ROCOR. ÂÂ
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« Reply #109 on: January 14, 2006, 11:13:18 AM »

ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia?) All these different names and titles for Orthodox churches! My Church is the Russian Orthodox church in exile. Can someone tell me if this is the same as ROCOR?

Yes and no.

The Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia and the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad are one and the same jurisdiction.  Their website is here.

ROCOR/ROCA used to call itself the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile.  However, it no longer uses this name.

That name has now been adopted by a group that has broken away from ROCOR because of the developing relationship with the Moscpw Patriarchate.  This breakaway group has a website here and there is an article about them here.  To my knowledge, they have no presence in Britain.

Speaking of which, this problem about the relationship between OCA and ROCA should ROCA be granted autocephaly by the MP is purely an American issue, as is this business of being in or out of SCOBA.  For those of us on this side of the pond, if ROCA is granted autocephaly by the MP, then the only two Russian jurisdictions that will be here will be the MP and ROCA.  In Britain, we have ROCA, an Antiochian Deanery, a Greek Diocese under the EP, and a diocese of the MP.  We have no autocephalous church in Britain, so there is no question of who is treading on whose toes as there is in America.  The issue that needs to be sorted out here is simply one of mutual recognition and a remedying of the canonical mess that exists with regard to jurisdictional overlap.  What we ideally need is an autocephalous Orthodox Church of Britain, with a bishop with his see specifically in britain (perhaps we could restore one of the long-vacant ancient Orthodox bishoprics of Richmond or Beverley, which existed before the schism).

So if ROCA is granted autocephaly, the then situation in Britain will be that:
  • EP, Antioch and MP will all be in full communion with each other.
  • MP and ROCA will be in full communion with each other.
  • ROCA will be in impaired communion (laity may receive the sacraments but clergy may not concelebrate*) with the EP and Antioch.


From the MP perspective:

They'll be in full communion with all other Orthodox jurisdictions in Britain.

From the Antiochian perspective:

They'll be in full communion with the EP and the MP and in a state of impaired communion* with ROCA.

The impediment to ROCA being fully recognised by Antioch is that ROCA is currently in a questionable state of canonicity.  This will be remedied when it submits to the MP.  There is a possibility that Antioch's position with regard to ROCA may be reviewed at some point in the future.

From the EP perspective:

They'll be in full communion with the MP and Antioch, and in a state of impaired communion* with ROCA.

Their issue with ROCA is that they are unlikely to recognise any autocephalous church in Britain not granted autocephaly by the EP.

From the ROCA perspective:

They'll be in full communion with the MP.

They'll be in a state of impaired communion* with the EP and Antioch because of the Calendar and perceived ecumenism.

So those are the issues that will need to be worked through, but most of them are not insurmountable, perhaps especially the Calendar question.  It seems odd to me that ROCA objects to full communion with Antioch because it is on the New Calendar, when it is happy to be in comunion with the MP, which also permits use of the New Calendar.  It seems to me, in my uninformed state, that if it isn't a big problem to be in communion with one New Calendar jurisdiction, then it shouldn't be too much of an obstacle to overcome to be in communion with another.

I pray for the day when we have a truly Orthodox autocephalous church in the British Isles.  We have many Saints from these isles who are largely forgotten in the wider Orthodox world - too many to make their efforts in vain.
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« Reply #110 on: January 14, 2006, 12:21:00 PM »

I joined this forum because the title read: Your home on the internet for Orthodox Christianity.  when someone asks about jurisdictions they mean Orthodox not non-Orthodox.  As for recommending the Indian Church - this is not Orthodox, simple, period.  That fringe people want to call themselves Orthodox is their affair - but Orthodox they aint.

I think it's funny that it's been almost three weeks now since that tangent has died (and I did address it at the time), and you want to resurrect it.  It's not even like the topic was bumped up with information about the Indian Church, either: it started basically with T talking about his discussion with his ROCOR priest, and this developed into a discussion about the American EO jurisdictional problems.  I am unable to see the connection, except if you want to merely make polemical shots.  If you want to play that game, ask Robert to let you in to the special unmoderated forum, and we can talk about your Vladyka Marilyn ( Wink ).   

You read the forum title correctly.  However, from the beginning, this site has always been welcoming both to Eastern and Oriental Orthodox.  We don't require that EO believe that OO are Orthodox (if we did, I would probably have banned you by now), and we don't require Oriental Orthodox to believe that Byzantines are Orthodox.  What we require is that everyone be respectful of others, even when disagreeing with them.  If the Indian Church came up in discussion again, and you wanted to say they were not Orthodox, you could, but you'd have to substantiate that claim (e.g., "they reject the council of Chalcedon, therefore they are not Orthodox") so that it wouldn't look like you were simply taking a cheap shot.  Of course, this would get heated, and we'd have to cut that discussion and transfer it to another section, but it could be done that way.  In fact, if you search the archives, you will see a good number of threads which were exactly like that, and we didn't take action on anyone except when they clearly violated forum rules.  Among the various members of our moderating team, you will find multiple views, on this and other issues; we are not interested in silencing anyone's point of view.  But it ought to be expressed in a particular way.

I'm inclined to wonder whether you know of which group Matthew777 was talking about because you seem to think it's a fringe group, with Archbishops named Fred, etc.  He was originally talking about the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, an autocephalous Oriental Orthodox Church (note to the Indians: I DO NOT want this issue debated in this thread).  Whatever your feelings about its doctrinal orthodoxy, one thing you cannot call it is a fringe group.  Not in communion with you, sure.  But that doesn't make it a fringe group like those of Abp. Fred or Vladyka Marilyn.  If you would like more information about this Church (I'm not trying to convert you, but I think you may be misinformed), contact me privately.  But if you insist you know what you're talking about, then I'd want to see you define fringe.  Again, contact me privately, I don't want to take over this topic. 

Finally, I am letting your comments stand as they are, with a warning.  If you do this again (resurrect controversial tangents which have died or insert polemical shots out of context "just because"), it will be dealt with.  I want to thank the other posters for disregarding this latest turn, and I hope we can keep it dead.  It doesn't belong here.             
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« Reply #111 on: January 14, 2006, 02:05:26 PM »

Yes and no.

The Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia and the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad are one and the same jurisdiction.  Their website is here.

ROCOR/ROCA used to call itself the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile.  However, it no longer uses this name.

That name has now been adopted by a group that has broken away from ROCOR because of the developing relationship with the Moscpw Patriarchate.  This breakaway group has a website here and there is an article about them here.  To my knowledge, they have no presence in Britain.



Thank you for this, that clarifes things for me!

I am inclined to agree that the differences do seem to patchable upable!! Lets hope.
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« Reply #112 on: January 14, 2006, 02:08:28 PM »


Thank you for this, that clarifes things for me!

I am inclined to agree that the differences do seem to patchable upable!! Lets hope.

Yes, let's hope, and pray, that the differences get resolved and that full communion gets restored.
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« Reply #113 on: January 15, 2006, 03:38:50 AM »

[Speaking of which, this problem about the relationship between OCA and ROCA should ROCA be granted autocephaly by the MP is purely an American issue, as is this business of being in or out of SCOBA.  For those of us on this side of the pond, if ROCA is granted autocephaly by the MP, then the only two Russian jurisdictions that will be here will be the MP and ROCA. ]

Chances of ROCA as an entity being granted autocephally are slim to none.  ROCA has churches throughout the world.  Autocephallous Churches are created by a territorial identity.  So what would you call this new ROCA Autocephalous Church?  The Russian Orthodox Church Outside the Borders of Russia?   If it's outside the borders of Russia, it is no longer the 'Russian Orthodox Church'.  Not only will it create problems here in America where there already is an autocephalous Church created by the MP, which in itself would restrict the MP from creating another autocephalous Church within the same terriitory.  The canons forbid it.  It would also create problems in western Europe, as will as other continents throughout the world where there are ROCA & other Othodox jurisdictions. 

It's time we all put the Church first and stop our petty and immature squabbles and lust for power.  Communism is dead.  It's time the Bishops got together and dug another hole to bury all the left over garbage from that era as they did in 1970 with the creation of the OCA.  Prior to 1970 there were familes separated, court cases, priest conflicts as a result of this garbage.  Though things still aren't perfect. I have seen progress in the relationship between the OCA and remaining MP parishes here in the US.  Priest concelebrating, people socializing and attending each other affairs and churches, etc.  People sitting and praying together that wouldn't be caught dead in the same room 30+ years ago.  Prior to the creation of the OCA.

It's time we all dug the second hole to bury the remaing garbage so the stink will never come back again.  And be the family God wants ius to be.

Orthodox
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« Reply #114 on: January 15, 2006, 05:15:14 AM »

With all due respect to everyone offering opinions on the jurisdictional chaos in non-traditionally orthodox countries like the USA, isn't it all an indication of the fact that none of these various and competing churches can reasonably claim to be the Church.  Doesn't it all show with incredible clarity what happens when the petrine primacy is ignored or dismissed?  Don't we just end up with a jungle of competing "jurisdictions" in a way painfully reminiscent of the proliferation of Protestant groups...
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« Reply #115 on: January 15, 2006, 08:01:44 AM »

[Speaking of which, this problem about the relationship between OCA and ROCA should ROCA be granted autocephaly by the MP is purely an American issue, as is this business of being in or out of SCOBA.ÂÂ  For those of us on this side of the pond, if ROCA is granted autocephaly by the MP, then the only two Russian jurisdictions that will be here will be the MP and ROCA. ]

Chances of ROCA as an entity being granted autocephally are slim to none.  ROCA has churches throughout the world.  Autocephallous Churches are created by a territorial identity.  So what would you call this new ROCA Autocephalous Church?  The Russian Orthodox Church Outside the Borders of Russia?  ÃƒÆ’‚ If it's outside the borders of Russia, it is no longer the 'Russian Orthodox Church'.  Not only will it create problems here in America where there already is an autocephalous Church created by the MP, which in itself would restrict the MP from creating another autocephalous Church within the same terriitory.  The canons forbid it.  It would also create problems in western Europe, as will as other continents throughout the world where there are ROCA & other Othodox jurisdictions.  

It's time we all put the Church first and stop our petty and immature squabbles and lust for power.ÂÂ  Communism is dead.ÂÂ  It's time the Bishops got together and dug another hole to bury all the left over garbage from that era as they did in 1970 with the creation of the OCA.ÂÂ  Prior to 1970 there were familes separated, court cases, priest conflicts as a result of this garbage.ÂÂ  Though things still aren't perfect. I have seen progress in the relationship between the OCA and remaining MP parishes here in the US.ÂÂ  Priest concelebrating, people socializing and attending each other affairs and churches, etc.ÂÂ  People sitting and praying together that wouldn't be caught dead in the same room 30+ years ago.ÂÂ  Prior to the creation of the OCA.

It's time we all dug the second hole to bury the remaing garbage so the stink will never come back again.ÂÂ  And be the family God wants ius to be.

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« Reply #116 on: January 15, 2006, 06:01:37 PM »

To bring things into perspective.ÂÂ  All canonical Eastern Orthodox Churches in the United states recognize that they a part of the One Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.ÂÂ  The issue of jurisdictions is the controversy of how the churches are administered and what the relationship of each is to the other (i.e. the politics).

In simplest terms it was the result of the chaos created in the Church when the Bolshevik's took over Russia and limited the funding and clergy available to the Orthodox Church in the US.ÂÂ  Parishes and unorganized ethnic immigrant communitiesÂÂ  dispersed by the results of WWI, the Bolshevik Revolution,ÂÂ  and the breakup of the Ottoman Empire were concerned about the lack of Hierarchal leadership and the ability to get priest.ÂÂ  TheyÂÂ  appealed to their old mother churches rather than lose their children to the American Protestant Churches or the Roman Catholic Churches.ÂÂ  The Mother Churches.Patriarchates took mercy upon them and sent priests and eventually hierarchies to establish some stability to churches that served the children of their homelands.

ROCOR and the Metropolia (now theÂÂ  OCA) have had periods of timeÂÂ  in which they reconciled and times when they separated during this period causing some problems in the representation of the Russian People.ÂÂ  The OCA was created when the Metropolia accepted the legitimacy of the Moscow Patriarchate and was given "autocephaly" by the Patriarch. This furthered the Rift between ROCOR and OCA. Later the ROCOR synod unhappywith the actions of the EP and many (but not all of the SCOBA Bishops) went out of Communion with many and the hierarchal level a condition that continues to this date.

There are many Orthodox people in the United States seeking to correct this multijurisdictional status like Orthodox People Together and Orthodox Christian Laity. It is important to remember that the majority of the Orthodox People and Jurisdictions in the US are in Communion with each otherÂÂ  and with the Mother Churches of Orthodoxy around the world. They fully recognize the unity of the Orthodox Church on Issues of Faith and beliefs.ÂÂ  The y cooper4ate with each other through the giving to United Orthodox Charities like The IOOC and there seminarians often attend seminaries run by other jurisdictions.

As to the question about the MP and OCA both having churches in the US, these churches are officially called "representational parishes" specifically to serve the members of their nationalities. It is of interest to note that there are OCA parishes in Russia that serve Americans and English speakingÂÂ  Orthodox living in Russia. You may wish to see these as Consulates of each Church.ÂÂ  They are fully in Communion with each other and the Host Bishops (in the US and Russia) frequently provide support to the Representational Parishes in their country. Likewise when Hierarch visit from theÂÂ  sponsoring Church the Host Hierarch serve with them at the Representational Churches.

Sadly the ones who make the most of the multi-juridictionalismÂÂ  in the US are usually the Orthodox themselves and not outsiders. They do more harm because rather than seeing that they are "In Communion" with each other, they seek to sow the seeds of discord and in a real sense deny the Communality of the Holy Orthodox and Catholic Church.

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« Reply #117 on: January 15, 2006, 06:05:39 PM »

With all due respect to everyone offering opinions on the jurisdictional chaos in non-traditionally orthodox countries like the USA, isn't it all an indication of the fact that none of these various and competing churches can reasonably claim to be the Church.ÂÂ  Doesn't it all show with incredible clarity what happens when the petrine primacy is ignored or dismissed?ÂÂ  Don't we just end up with a jungle of competing "jurisdictions" in a way painfully reminiscent of the proliferation of Protestant groups...

Bruno, who then would you assert has the True apostolic procession?  That was one of the main reasons for me starting this thread.  To make sure that I am joining the True Church.  So far, from my studies, ROCOR qualifies.  Do you disagree? If so, then why?

Thank you for entertaining this question.

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #118 on: January 15, 2006, 06:39:29 PM »

With all due respect to everyone offering opinions on the jurisdictional chaos in non-traditionally orthodox countries like the USA, isn't it all an indication of the fact that none of these various and competing churches can reasonably claim to be the Church.ÂÂÂ  Doesn't it all show with incredible clarity what happens when the petrine primacy is ignored or dismissed?ÂÂÂ  Don't we just end up with a jungle of competing "jurisdictions" in a way painfully reminiscent of the proliferation of Protestant groups...

No.ÂÂ  On the other hand, your post shows with incredible clarity that you look like a Latin troll with an agenda who knows very little about Orthodox ecclesiology.
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« Reply #119 on: January 17, 2006, 12:52:23 AM »

http://www.st-catherine.ru/en/ Here is an OCA parish in Moscow. 
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« Reply #120 on: February 03, 2006, 04:49:38 PM »

Truth_or_bust,

I certainly believe that the ROCOR has true Apostolic succession, and is a true church.  As you know, in the USA, it has had some outstanding figures of Orthodoxy, Father Seraphim Rose and Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco, not to mention the monks of Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville.  From this perspective, it is certainly the most impressive "jurisdiction" in the USA.  My point about the petrine ministry was intended to raise the question of how some jurisdictions can be in different degrees of communion with each other, and yet all claim equally to be the Church.  The jurisdictional infighting which seems almost constant (prescinding from the craziness that goes on among Orthodox traditionalists -- see the Euphrosynos cafe for that!) argues for the need some kind of authority beyond the merely synodal.

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« Reply #121 on: February 03, 2006, 10:32:28 PM »

Good luck on that whole authority thing.  The only way to stop it and put in ideas that actually make sense, and the only way to get anything REALLY done is to become a bishop yourself.  That's the only way that real change will happen "authoritatively" so yah...good luck.  I've heard this all the time, but its always good to repeat things, "you never know how it is on the throne until you sit there" so we can talk all we want but until we're in their shoes we'll never really know what they have to deal with.  We may think that they have their authority issues all messed up, but that's what they have to deal with on their level.  Maybe we should do our utmost to help and come forth with understanding and HELP, instead of admonish.  Just some thoughts...
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« Reply #122 on: February 04, 2006, 10:35:25 AM »

Greetings,
I am curious to know the opinions of some established Orthodox here concerning
acceptable Jurisdictions.  From my studies in the last five months I have come to understand
that there is a measure of politics as to what is considered acceptable.   My concern is
being received into Orthodoxy in a canonically proper method.  Also, I travel quite a bit
and there is a good chance I will need to attend Parishes in various jurisdictions.  I want
to make sure my conversion into Orthodoxy is correct.

Having said that I wanted to get some feedback on the general perspective concerning the status
of ROCOR.  I have been attending a ROCOR Church and am about to become a Cathecuman with plans
on being Baptised the Saturday before Pascha '06 (!!!).  This has been a long study for me so far but now
I am learning of the politics.   This is a very important step for me and I wanted to hear some comments
on my situation of very possibly having to attend various Parishes when traveling.  It is obviously important
that my conversion be canonical in every way.

Thanks for any comments on this issue,
Truth or Bust

From my experience . . . I would say that you should go wherever you feel, not only comfortable, but feel that your are in the presence of God. 
I have had a long struggle trying to figure out which church to attend, and finally realized that it wasn't the church that didn't make me feel that I was in God's house, it was the actions and attitudes of the parishioners as well as the priest, and the heirarchs who have allowed things to fester for many, many years.  It got to the point that I would wake up on Sunday morning and have to decide if I wanted to go to church.  I didn't like that feeling.  Although I've been told to stay and fight to make changes for the better, I feel I'm better off travelling 30 to 70 minutes one way to attend another church rather than 10 minutes and stay where I am. 
I wish you the best and many blessings in your journey into Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #123 on: February 04, 2006, 03:16:29 PM »

I have had a long struggle trying to figure out which church to attend, and finally realized that it wasn't the church that didn't make me feel that I was in God's house, it was the actions and attitudes of the parishioners as well as the priest, and the heirarchs who have allowed things to fester for many, many years.  It got to the point that I would wake up on Sunday morning and have to decide if I wanted to go to church.  I didn't like that feeling.  Although I've been told to stay and fight to make changes for the better, I feel I'm better off travelling 30 to 70 minutes one way to attend another church rather than 10 minutes and stay where I am.

I know exactly how you feel Psalti, because I am in the same situation right now.  Undecided  Sad

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« Reply #124 on: February 04, 2006, 04:17:46 PM »

I know exactly how you feel Psalti, because I am in the same situation right now.  Undecided  Sad



That's too bad.  I truly know the feeling.  I pray that we will find peace soon.
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« Reply #125 on: February 04, 2006, 04:24:24 PM »

Despite what the people who represent the church at any level (clergy or laity) do to screw it up, the Truth of Orthodoxy and the Love of God prevail in the end.  I hope you both find the Peace that Passes Understanding.
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« Reply #126 on: February 05, 2006, 04:24:09 PM »

Bruno,

The problems you bring up (infighting, schisms whether brief or enduring) are nothing new.  It is not as if before the Pope cut himself off from the Orthodox Church that there was somehow this wonderful homogeny where everyone more or less got along and the "trains arrived on time every day", so to speak.

I also have to wonder out loud whether the supposed "unity" which a Pope-like-figure would provide is really all it is cracked up to be.  Just after breaking itself off from the Orthodox Church, the power of the Roman Popes was at it's height.  Yet if you look at the history of western (Papal) Christendom from that time on it is an endless story of schism and turmoil - yet this gets overlooked by a lot of people for whatever reason.  There were the profound "anti-Pope" schisms where you had multiple "credible" men running around calling themselves "Pope" with a good chunk of Latin Christendom following them.  There were also major heresies which took over entire nations, such as Albigensianism (neo-gnosticism!).  And you should of course remember the biggest series of enduring schisms/heresies broke out under the watch of the Popes, ones which endure to this day throughout the western world - namely, Protestantism (in it's hundreds of flavours.)

Also, look at the face of Catholicism now - while what is left of the Papally united western Christendom does have a certain neatness and centralized administration, the sad truth is that their unity is a fascade; it is a church which houses the most outrageous forms of heresy (even by it's own, often ignored, "official" standards) and disorder (theological, moral, liturgical, etc.)

Given all of this, I can't see just what is so special about Papal-type ecclessiology in one form or another.  While the Orthodox Church has suffered persecutions and lots of personal pettiness throughout the same period, the fact of the matter is there is an incredible spiritual homogeny, which I would think to a Christian is what would be of the most significance.

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« Reply #127 on: February 05, 2006, 08:29:03 PM »


While talking to a non-Orthodox friend he posed this question to me, and I have yet to give him a response:

"If you truly believe in and worship God, then what difference does it make which church you go to to worship Him?"  Good question and I didn't know what to say because I never thought about it in that way before. 

Does God really care which church you go to to worship Him in, or if you worship Him at home?  We claim to be the true church that can be traced back to the Apostles.  Does that mean that all other 'Christians' are doing it wrong and for nothing?  Will they go to Heaven if they worship God and lead their lives according to His teachings, but just happen to be going to a different church? 

As you can see from my writings, I am still struggling over this.  Some have told me that I have to fight to make the changes for my parish.  I don't go to church to fight.  I go to worship God.  If being a Mr. Fixit is part of Orhtodoxy . . . then I don't know.  Others have suggested that I visit a non-denominational church.  I just don't know.

Please give me your thoughts.

Thank you all for your help.

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« Reply #128 on: February 05, 2006, 10:12:55 PM »

While talking to a non-Orthodox friend he posed this question to me, and I have yet to give him a response:

"If you truly believe in and worship God, then what difference does it make which church you go to to worship Him?"  Good question and I didn't know what to say because I never thought about it in that way before. 

Does God really care which church you go to to worship Him in, or if you worship Him at home?  We claim to be the true church that can be traced back to the Apostles.  Does that mean that all other 'Christians' are doing it wrong and for nothing?  Will they go to Heaven if they worship God and lead their lives according to His teachings, but just happen to be going to a different church? 

Speaking as someone who's still exploring Orthodoxy, I think these are important questions. For myself, I would say that it does matter which church you go to. First of all, the idea of worshiping at home--you certainly can do that (and should), but we need the Church as well. Anyone who thinks they don't apparently isn't concerned with having a biblical faith. As for the church one chooses, I would not say that a person who goes to a different church is not going to heaven (boy, I hope that's not the case!)--God's grace operates everywhere and in different ways, and to a great extent Orthodoxy is still unknown in much of the Western world.

On the other hand, I really think it does make a difference which Church you're part of. As far as that goes, I would say that Orthodoxy embodies the true Church, and most of what passes for "church" in Western traditions barely deserves the name. For me, this is one of the issues that bothers me about my current situation. I truly believe that the Church is defined sacramentally, but until I convert I cannot participate in the sacraments. My situation is complicated, because my wife has no interest in Orthodoxy, and I'm reluctant to take this kind of step without her. But in the meantime, I can go to our Evangelical church and feel like I'm faking it, or attend Orthodox services and feel like a spectator. I want the sacraments, I want to be subject to a true bishop, I want to participate in a community--the community that Christ established. Not that I think Orthodox churches are perfect--but they preserve the tradition of faith on which the unity of the Church was and should be founded. I long for Western Christians to see this and return to communion with the East. But I can't wait for that to happen and feel that I am following Christ the way I should.

I should add that I fully understand why people like my wife and many Evangelical friends do not want Orthodoxy. Looking back, I can see that I have come by a very specific path--one that is not open to many people. There are other paths certainly, but I can see what a careful process it was to tear down my biases, so that I could look at Orthodoxy with open eyes. IMO, it is much harder for someone born and raised in Western Protestantism to accept Orthodoxy than for someone who has no prior exposure to Christianity of any sort. Perhaps it happens with them more because they are more highly motivated, but there is still a lot of baggage to deal with. I also respect the good that Western Christians do. They are by no means completely without grace, and in some important ways they have continued the work of the Spirit in the West where no other vehicle was available. I long for them to find their fulfillment in Orthodoxy, and at the same time I long for Orthodoxy to become a more visible light in the world. But for myself personally, I think it's important enough to be part of the true Church that I would convert tomorrow if I could.

Trevor
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« Reply #129 on: February 05, 2006, 10:25:53 PM »

Speaking as someone who's still exploring Orthodoxy, I think these are important questions. For myself, I would say that it does matter which church you go to. First of all, the idea of worshiping at home--you certainly can do that (and should), but we need the Church as well. Anyone who thinks they don't apparently isn't concerned with having a biblical faith. As for the church one chooses, I would not say that a person who goes to a different church is not going to heaven (boy, I hope that's not the case!)--God's grace operates everywhere and in different ways, and to a great extent Orthodoxy is still unknown in much of the Western world.

On the other hand, I really think it does make a difference which Church you're part of. As far as that goes, I would say that Orthodoxy embodies the true Church, and most of what passes for "church" in Western traditions barely deserves the name. For me, this is one of the issues that bothers me about my current situation. I truly believe that the Church is defined sacramentally, but until I convert I cannot participate in the sacraments. My situation is complicated, because my wife has no interest in Orthodoxy, and I'm reluctant to take this kind of step without her. But in the meantime, I can go to our Evangelical church and feel like I'm faking it, or attend Orthodox services and feel like a spectator. I want the sacraments, I want to be subject to a true bishop, I want to participate in a community--the community that Christ established. Not that I think Orthodox churches are perfect--but they preserve the tradition of faith on which the unity of the Church was and should be founded. I long for Western Christians to see this and return to communion with the East. But I can't wait for that to happen and feel that I am following Christ the way I should.

I should add that I fully understand why people like my wife and many Evangelical friends do not want Orthodoxy. Looking back, I can see that I have come by a very specific path--one that is not open to many people. There are other paths certainly, but I can see what a careful process it was to tear down my biases, so that I could look at Orthodoxy with open eyes. IMO, it is much harder for someone born and raised in Western Protestantism to accept Orthodoxy than for someone who has no prior exposure to Christianity of any sort. Perhaps it happens with them more because they are more highly motivated, but there is still a lot of baggage to deal with. I also respect the good that Western Christians do. They are by no means completely without grace, and in some important ways they have continued the work of the Spirit in the West where no other vehicle was available. I long for them to find their fulfillment in Orthodoxy, and at the same time I long for Orthodoxy to become a more visible light in the world. But for myself personally, I think it's important enough to be part of the true Church that I would convert tomorrow if I could.

Trevor

I wish you well on your journey to Orthodoxy.  May you never encounter the struggles I have.
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« Reply #130 on: February 06, 2006, 12:38:55 AM »

I would consider entering the ROCOR to be a blessing. The Church has produced a number of Saints, and has done far more for Orthodoxy outside of Eastern Europe than at least one of the jurisdicitons that seems to sometimes condem it have.

Schisms are schisms, yes. And schismatics are heretics. However, the issue of the ROCOR not being under the MP is far from a black and white issue. And I as a layman, would see no problem in joining the ROCOR. But once again, that's only me.
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« Reply #131 on: February 21, 2006, 09:59:43 PM »

And schismatics are heretics.

This isn't necessarily true at all.

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« Reply #132 on: February 21, 2006, 10:45:53 PM »

Oh, I can't remember which father I was reading that said that "schismatics" are actually worse than "heretics" for dividing the Body of Christ over something less than a dogmatic issue...
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« Reply #133 on: February 21, 2006, 11:23:11 PM »

Oh, I can't remember which father I was reading that said that "schismatics" are actually worse than "heretics" for dividing the Body of Christ over something less than a dogmatic issue...

Chrysostom:

Quote
I assert and protest, that to make a schism in the Church is no less an evil than to fall into heresy. Tell me, suppose a subject of some king, though he did not join himself to another king, nor give himself to any other, yet should take and keep hold of his king's royal purple, and should tear it all from its clasp, and rend it into many shreds; would he suffer less punishment than those who join. themselves to the service of another? And what, if withal he were to seize the king himself by the throat and slay him, and tear his body limb from limb, what punishment could he undergo, that should be equal to his deserts? Now if in doing this toward a king, his fellow-servant, he would be committing an act too great for any punishment to reach; of what hell shall not he be worthy who slays Christ, and plucks Him limb from limb? of that one which is threatened? No, I think not, but of another far more dreadful.
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« Reply #134 on: February 22, 2006, 12:54:50 AM »

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Quote from: cleveland on Today at 09:45:53 PM
Oh, I can't remember which father I was reading that said that "schismatics" are actually worse than "heretics" for dividing the Body of Christ over something less than a dogmatic issue...

Chrysostom:

Do you happen to know which book that's from?  Or letter...?
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I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
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