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Author Topic: Chosing a proper Jurisdiction  (Read 15460 times) Average Rating: 0
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Anastasios
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« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2005, 12:05:49 PM »

ROCOR and the Serbs have been in communion the whole time officially, many report.  Others claim they were in communion but did not concelebrate.  At any rate, Archbishop Mark was a spiritual son of St Justin Popovich I am told, was with him when it was obvious he was going to die, and hence read the prayers of separation for St Justin, his spiritual father, in his (Arch. Mark's) role as a priest of the Church, with no one questioning whether he (Arch. Mark) had the right to do it, which suggests that they have indeed always been in communion, or at the very least, didn't care enough about the split to not allow this.

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« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2005, 08:35:23 PM »

Thank you for the clarification.  That was definately not what I got out of it, so i'm glad you explained.  I was just afraid that you were aluding to the idea that just by reading the prayers, that put Archbishop Mark in communion with the Serbian Patriarchate.  Obviously, you did not mean that. 
On a slightly different note...
I found out some more details about the ROCOR situation.  ROCOR is an official group of churches under the MP, according to their by-laws (constitution, whatever you call it).  Unfortunately, they have distanced themselves from that church/patriarchate.  If they are not underneath the church that they CAME from, and were originally blessed by, who do they belong to?  Serbian Patriarchate and Jerusalem my be in communion with them (participate in Sacraments, mention them in dyptics, etc), but ROCOR is not underneath their patriarchal blessing.  The dyptics are how we recognize a church to be a part of the Orthodox Church.  When Rome left, they took the Pope out of the dyptics to signify that they had schizmed.  When ROCOR left Russia they did the same thing...eventually.  Only SOC, and Jerusalem put them in the dyptics at all, everyone else leaves them out, INCLUDING the patriarchate they associate themselves with. 
Ultimately, if you are not connected with the patriarchate that allowed your church to form, who are you connected to?  Who is your bishop?  Patriarch?  No patriarch has officially recognized them as an autocephalous church, so who are they under?  Their own archbishop?  Who is under....nobody.  Can he start his own church?  I think not, unless he's a schizmatic, in which case their sacraments are void (couldn't think of a better word).  Are all the Old Calanderist Greek churches in communion?  NO, and they have the SAME situation.  They have their own archbishops, but are underneath NO patriarch. 
Just some thoughts...
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« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2005, 08:13:48 AM »

Thank you for the clarification.ÂÂ  That was definately not what I got out of it, so i'm glad you explained.ÂÂ  I was just afraid that you were aluding to the idea that just by reading the prayers, that put Archbishop Mark in communion with the Serbian Patriarchate.ÂÂ  Obviously, you did not mean that.ÂÂ  
On a slightly different note...
I found out some more details about the ROCOR situation.ÂÂ  ROCOR is an official group of churches under the MP, according to their by-laws (constitution, whatever you call it).ÂÂ  Unfortunately, they have distanced themselves from that church/patriarchate.ÂÂ  If they are not underneath the church that they CAME from, and were originally blessed by, who do they belong to?ÂÂ  Serbian Patriarchate and Jerusalem my be in communion with them (participate in Sacraments, mention them in dyptics, etc), but ROCOR is not underneath their patriarchal blessing.ÂÂ  The dyptics are how we recognize a church to be a part of the Orthodox Church.ÂÂ  When Rome left, they took the Pope out of the dyptics to signify that they had schizmed.ÂÂ  When ROCOR left Russia they did the same thing...eventually.ÂÂ  Only SOC, and Jerusalem put them in the dyptics at all, everyone else leaves them out, INCLUDING the patriarchate they associate themselves with.ÂÂ  
Ultimately, if you are not connected with the patriarchate that allowed your church to form, who are you connected to?ÂÂ  Who is your bishop?ÂÂ  Patriarch?ÂÂ  No patriarch has officially recognized them as an autocephalous church, so who are they under?ÂÂ  Their own archbishop?ÂÂ  Who is under....nobody.ÂÂ  Can he start his own church?ÂÂ  I think not, unless he's a schizmatic, in which case their sacraments are void (couldn't think of a better word).ÂÂ  Are all the Old Calanderist Greek churches in communion?ÂÂ  NO, and they have the SAME situation.ÂÂ  They have their own archbishops, but are underneath NO patriarch.ÂÂ  
Just some thoughts...

Serb, thank you for your research.  I will be interested in learning the response to the items you have presented when addressed by the more established Orthodox who post on this thread.

God Bless you all,
T
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« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2005, 03:50:11 PM »

They will enter into communion with the MP and that is all. Nothing will change on a local level, according to the recent epistle of Met Laurus.  Some like to say this will interfere with the OCA's autocephaly but really, no one envisioned this happening like this so the OCA is going to have to give a little room so that ROCOR can come back into communion with the MP, if that indeed is what the OCA wants.

Anastasios

Well, I don't think anyone can say what will happen.  Metropolitan Laurus of course has his opinion, and other bishops have different views.  I think that everyone is going to have to do some negotiating in order to make this work.  I'm frankly a bit surprised, Anastasios, that you seem to think that only the OCA will have to show flexibility when it comes to this issue. 

Bob
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« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2005, 04:25:28 PM »

Well, I don't think anyone can say what will happen.ÂÂ  Metropolitan Laurus of course has his opinion, and other bishops have different views.ÂÂ  I think that everyone is going to have to do some negotiating in order to make this work.ÂÂ  I'm frankly a bit surprised, Anastasios, that you seem to think that only the OCA will have to show flexibility when it comes to this issue.ÂÂ  

Bob

Ah, but that is not how I feel at all. The poster above suggested that the ROCOR will not be able to be autonomous under the MP because it is against the agreement the MP made with the OCA in 1970, and I am merely pointing out that the OCA will have to back down on that a bit if it wants the ROCOR to be accepted into communion with its mother church.  I think ROCOR is already making great sacrifices to join with the MP, and I wouldn't be surprised if in this spirit it continues its amenable approach and the OCA and ROCOR are able to sit down and talk about how an MP-ROCOR reunion would impact it, and reach an acceptable conclusion.

Sorry to give the wrong impression Smiley

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« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2005, 04:34:57 PM »

Anastasios,

It IS hard to think of ROCOR accepting to become part of the OCA.  I think that even becoming a self-contained unit (like the Romanian diocese) within the OCA would probably be too much. I hope it's not too much for the OCA to accept this, at least for a period of time.   I hope that all concerned can come to an agreement to end this problem.   Smiley

Bob
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« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2005, 10:23:03 AM »

Greetings! Please suffer two questions from a very novice Catechuman.  If this situation between OCA - ROCOR - MP is now a "sticky wicket" because of current arrangements worked out with OCA and the MP in the USA, why can't ROCOR just happily continue on as they are now?  If their Sacraments have Grace and their Baptisms are valid then isn't that the most important aspect short of both ROCOR and the OCA both "dropping" their individual jurisdictions and coming fully under the MP?  I am sure I am completely missing something here so I apologize in advance if this perspective is offensive!

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2005, 11:18:14 AM »

I think it comes down to "because the OCA has an accepted church and ROCOR doesn't"  haha.  The issue is, as I see it, that the OCA was granted autocephaly by the MP, and is still technically underneath them.  ROCOR was never given autocephaly, and is also technically underneath the MP.  The issue gets complicated with the fact that ROCOR has disinfranchized themselves from the MP, and is therefore no longer attatched to them, while the OCA is.  Its almost like the cannonical and political triangle of death... Grin  But like you said, the situation is probobly a lot more complicated than that, I like to just focus on the simple problems. 
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« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2005, 11:34:02 AM »

This is one of those things I think you have to read books on to get a further grasp.  If you want to understand the issues, please read some opposing points of view:

1) The Truth about the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, 2nd edition. (Jordanville Press. Very pro-ROCOR and anti-OCA)
2) Towards an American Orthodox Church (Bogolepev, SVS Press, anti-ROCOR).

That should give you an idea of the issues better than we can online.

As to NOW, yes, two Orthodox Churches should be able to move towards unity.  But in the process, the canonical actions and uncanonical actions of both sides have to be addressed and worked out; the two sides can't just pretend everything is ok and move on without fixing some of the old problems that might resurface if glossed over.

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« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2005, 12:11:54 PM »

The issue is, as I see it, that the OCA was granted autocephaly by the MP, and is still technically underneath them.

No, the OCA is not "under" anyone - they're Autocephalous!  When the daughter moves out of the parents house and gets married, the parent doesn't have any right to disolve the marriage and force the daughter to return home. 
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« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2005, 12:29:40 PM »

This is one of those things I think you have to read books on to get a further grasp.ÂÂ  If you want to understand the issues, please read some opposing points of view:

1) The Truth about the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, 2nd edition. (Jordanville Press. Very pro-ROCOR and anti-OCA)
2) Towards an American Orthodox Church (Bogolepev, SVS Press, anti-ROCOR).

That should give you an idea of the issues better than we can online.

As to NOW, yes, two Orthodox Churches should be able to move towards unity.ÂÂ  But in the process, the canonical actions and uncanonical actions of both sides have to be addressed and worked out; the two sides can't just pretend everything is ok and move on without fixing some of the old problems that might resurface if glossed over.

Anastasios

I guess it would be quite a huge step for both ROCOR and the OCA to drop their jurisdictions and completely come under the MP.  Not very realistic! What a statement for unity, though. 

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2005, 12:32:25 PM »

No, the OCA is not "under" anyone - they're Autocephalous! 

"Under" is a relative term, no?  They're "under" Christ, "under" the Tradition, "under" the Canonical Tradition, etc.

When the daughter moves out of the parents house and gets married, the parent doesn't have any right to disolve the marriage and force the daughter to return home.   

Not exactly true in the case of the Church, which is the Mother and can decide what she wishes for the "daughter."  If the rest of the Church thought the OCA should go back under the MP, then despite what the OCA's objections would be, it would be done - or those who opposed would be in schism.
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« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2005, 12:37:10 PM »

"Under" is a relative term, no?ÂÂ  They're "under" Christ, "under" the Tradition, "under" the Canonical Tradition, etc.
Yup - sorry for not being precise.

Not exactly true in the case of the Church, which is the Mother and can decide what she wishes for the "daughter."ÂÂ  If the rest of the Church thought the OCA should go back under the MP, then despite what the OCA's objections would be, it would be done - or those who opposed would be in schism.
Considering that we haven't had an Ecumenical Council for over a Millenium, academic speculation such as this is rather worthless.  Since it seems (from pretty much all sides) that a ROCOR reunion with the MP is pretty much a done deal, speculation here (as to further in the future) is not so worthless.
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« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2005, 12:45:25 PM »

Considering that we haven't had an Ecumenical Council for over a Millenium, academic speculation such as this is rather worthless. 

Well, while it's true that there hasn't been an Ecumenical Synod for over 1000 years, the Church has found ways in the intervening time to make decisions as a body - the Endemousa Synod for example (a regularly meeting body including the 4 Eastern Patriarchs that made decisions during the period between the latter days of the Empire and the last 2 centuries).  Or, for example, the last meeting of all the sees at the Ecumenical Patriarchate - whether one agrees with the decision rendered or not, it was a meeting of the various sees - either by direct representation of the chief hierarch, or their designated representative - to decide a course of action on an issue pressing the Church.  So the debate over whether or not a jurisdiction could be forced back under the one from whence it came is not totally academic - but the fact that this kind of maneuver hasn't been done in quite a while does render the question pretty much so.

Since it seems (from pretty much all sides) that a ROCOR reunion with the MP is pretty much a done deal, speculation here (as to further in the future) is not so worthless.     

Is it really a done deal?  The one article I read (and I can't remember the site, so I can't research the credibility at the moment) stated that the MP was looking for ROCOR to become a body within the Patriarchate again, not just another church "in communion."  Now, the article didn't speculate or provide information as to whether this would be as an Autonomous, semi-autonomous, or otherwise body.  But it made it sound like there is still the sticky point of ecclesiological relationship between the two - while the idea of being in communion with one another does sound like a done deal, this other part doesn't.
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« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2005, 12:51:50 PM »

Truth or Bust,

Would Moscow want the OCA back? Why would it have given it away if it wanted it back later?

I think the best unity will be the OCA continues as is and the ROCOR is allowed to be an autonomous unit of the MP, and the OCA and ROCOR establish a joint commission to work out probelms that have occurred over history. A timetable is set that in x number of years (25, 50...) the ROCOR and OCA will be administratively united.

Anastasios
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« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2005, 01:00:26 PM »

I think the best unity will be the OCA continues as is and the ROCOR is allowed to be an autonomous unit of the MP, and the OCA and ROCOR establish a joint commission to work out probelms that have occurred over history. A timetable is set that in x number of years (25, 50...) the ROCOR and OCA will be administratively united.

While I agree with the above, I've never seen some sort of timetable mentioned.  Got a source?
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« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2005, 01:35:29 PM »

While I agree with the above, I've never seen some sort of timetable mentioned.ÂÂ  Got a source?

No, I am saying that I think that is how it should be, not that I know that that is how it will be Smiley

A.
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« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2005, 02:06:17 PM »

I think the best unity will be the OCA continues as is and the ROCOR is allowed to be an autonomous unit of the MP, and the OCA and ROCOR establish a joint commission to work out probelms that have occurred over history. A timetable is set that in x number of years (25, 50...) the ROCOR and OCA will be administratively united.   

I think that this is the real ultimate purpose of SCOBA - to  work out the short-term issues and set the table for administrative unity.  Uniting the various ministries under the umbrella, and doing a comprehensive survey/plan as to how the nation would be divided (dioceses and metropolises and archdioceses), the body can then prove to the "old world" that it can be a fully integrated Orthodox Church that can be of assistance to the local community in a united front, and to the Old World in their fights to keep the fire of the faith burning in lands that are as under attack as ever.
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« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2005, 02:35:27 PM »

re: the OCA and Autocephaly

Who honestly in both word and action sees the OCA as an autocephalous church?

the EP? - certainly not!

Alexandria? - have stated that the diaspora is the jurisdiction of the EP

Antioch? - certainly haven't in the past, but seem to be working American unity based upon the OCA as the center

Jerusalem? Has parishes in America with no intention of joining the OCA

Serbia? - has its own Church here

Bulgaria, Romania - while some in America are incorperated into the OCA each church has Patriarchial parishes in America as well

Moscow?  well there sure are a lot of parishes under the direct jurisdiction of the MP to really think that Moscow sees the OCA as THE American Church

So that leaves such illustrious churches as Poland and the Church in the Czech lands as believing in OCA autocephaly and NOT setting up altar against altar in OCA territory. 
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« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2005, 03:25:09 PM »

Silouan,

If you want to launch a discussion as to the merits of the granting of autocephaly to the OCA, there are more nuanced ways to do it.  IMHO. your approach here comes across as really unnecessarily lacking in charity and seems to have a quite polemical tone.  Everyone knows that the situation in North America is messy because of historical developments and unfortunate (or even tragic) political infighting.  It's going to take a lot of prayer and give and take on all sides before canonical unity is achieved.  Forgive me, but I don't see how your approach here can be viewed as being constructive. 

Bob
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« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2005, 03:42:48 PM »

Quote
Forgive me, but I just don't see how your approach here can be viewed as being constructive.

It is constructive in the sense that being pragmatic is the sine qua non of actual construction.    The ROCOR discussions with the MP are bearing fruit because both sides have been frank in bringing forth what they percieve as impediments to unity.  Until people within the OCA are willing to take a serious look at their sacred cow of Autocephaly nothing will be accomplished towards unity in America.  It is quite relevant that only two autocephalous churches recognize the OCA as autocephalous - but it is also worth noting that the two churches in question also had their autocephaly disputed in their day...

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« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2005, 05:19:23 PM »

Truth or Bust,

Would Moscow want the OCA back? Why would it have given it away if it wanted it back later?

I think the best unity will be the OCA continues as is and the ROCOR is allowed to be an autonomous unit of the MP, and the OCA and ROCOR establish a joint commission to work out probelms that have occurred over history. A timetable is set that in x number of years (25, 50...) the ROCOR and OCA will be administratively united.

Anastasios

Good questions Anastasios.  Also, I did not realize some of the finer points in this ROCOR - MP unfication.  I ran into a deep thread on this item here:
http://euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5459&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=27

It seems that many ROCOR people fear a land grab might happen. 

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2005, 05:25:33 PM »

The Euphrosynoscafe is essentially an insane asylum and most of the more vitrolic people opposed to the union on there are not even members of ROCOR, but are schismatics.  Nothing on that site is worth taking seriously. 

There are definetly some in ROCOR opposed to re-establishment of communion with Moscow at this point in time, but they are not going around slandering our bishops with fanciful tales and outright lies. 
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« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2005, 09:47:55 PM »

The Euphrosynoscafe is essentially an insane asylum and most of the more vitrolic people opposed to the union on there are not even members of ROCOR, but are schismatics.ÂÂ  Nothing on that site is worth taking seriously.ÂÂ  

There are definetly some in ROCOR opposed to re-establishment of communion with Moscow at this point in time, but they are not going around slandering our bishops with fanciful tales and outright lies.ÂÂ  

Thanks for the heads up as well as your thoughtful posts on this thread.  The information put forth on this topic was exactly what I was seeking.

By best to you all.

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2005, 01:31:04 PM »

T or B,

Even though you seem to have gotten what you were looking for, here is a link I found that explains things rather well.

http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/ROCOR_and_OCA
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« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2005, 08:23:59 PM »

T or B,

Even though you seem to have gotten what you were looking for, here is a link I found that explains things rather well.

http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/ROCOR_and_OCA

Thanks for the link.  The article seems very well-researched.  What a muddy mess!  At least the last paragraph on 2001-present provides hope.
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« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2005, 09:53:00 PM »

T or B,

Even though you seem to have gotten what you were looking for, here is a link I found that explains things rather well.

http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/ROCOR_and_OCA

Thanks! I will read it strait away.

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #72 on: December 21, 2005, 02:32:38 PM »

re: the OCA and Autocephaly

Who honestly in both word and action sees the OCA as an autocephalous church?


Are you not confusing seeing the OCA as "autocephalous" with it being the sole inheritor of canonical responsibility of North America?  Certainly the EP hasn't recognized the MP's granting of autocephaly to the OCA, but that is largely irrelevant here in the US. I think there is a formidable movement among the Antiochian Church in the USA and the OCA toward unity, hoping that the Greeks come along. I doubt the latter will happen in the near future, but I think we could see an Antiochian/OCA union in the "near" future ("near" being a relative term), which would be a large step forward in developing a genuinely American Orthodox Church and would catapult them to the "high ground" on union front.

Regarding ROCOR, I'm personally looking forward to "normalization" between them and other jurisdictions, particularly OCA. It will be a strain because a lot of harsh stuff has been said on both sides, but I think it would be good for all.

In Christ,

J-D
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« Reply #73 on: December 21, 2005, 04:54:48 PM »

Are you not confusing seeing the OCA as "autocephalous" with it being the sole inheritor of canonical responsibility of North America?     

Could you please clarify what you're trying to get across here?

I think there is a formidable movement among the Antiochian Church in the USA and the OCA toward unity, hoping that the Greeks come along. I doubt the latter will happen in the near future, but I think we could see an Antiochian/OCA union in the "near" future ("near" being a relative term), which would be a large step forward in developing a genuinely American Orthodox Church and would catapult them to the "high ground" on union front.

I hope there is a movement... and there is a movement in the GOA for unification with the others.  But stumbling blocks abound:

1. Many of those in the GOA who are advocating unification in the near future also have a skewed ecclesiology and  tend to hold a near-congregational view of the Church.  I find this probably the most disturbing point of the movement.  And organizations such as OCL which promote the unity also tend to promote the most liberal ideas and movements within the Church - and it seems they do so without being as dsicerning as they claim to be.

2. The Antiochian Archdiocese can't join the OCA without either the approval of Damascus or creating schism (which won't help the OCA's case for recognition abroad).

3. It doesn't seem to me that the two sides are working out hte logistics of such a move - which means that while the Laity is calling for the unification, the Clergy and administrators aren't moving towards it seriously enough (yet).
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« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2005, 12:43:13 PM »

Could you please clarify what you're trying to get across here?

Well, it seems that you equating a recognition of autocephaly with a concomitant recognition that the OCA is the only leigitimate, canonical Church in America. As for practical matters, we have Greek priests concelebrate every now and then at our parish, as well as priests from other jurisdictions so there certainly seems to be a practical recognition of the OCA as a "legitimate" Orthodox body.

Quote
I hope there is a movement... and there is a movement in the GOA for unification with the others.  But stumbling blocks abound:

1. Many of those in the GOA who are advocating unification in the near future also have a skewed ecclesiology and  tend to hold a near-congregational view of the Church.  I find this probably the most disturbing point of the movement.  And organizations such as OCL which promote the unity also tend to promote the most liberal ideas and movements within the Church - and it seems they do so without being as dsicerning as they claim to be.

Yes, I agree. This is bothersome to me as well. These seem to be the same people who disparage monastic "influence" on the Church and hate to see "old world" monasticism established here.

Quote
2. The Antiochian Archdiocese can't join the OCA without either the approval of Damascus or creating schism (which won't help the OCA's case for recognition abroad).

Or it might. My understanding is the Metr. Philip is pretty intent on getting something done, with or without the blessing of Damascus. The bigger and more unified an American Church becomes, the more preasure on other patriarchates to recognize it. I think the Russian MP certainly would. The current EP will never, so it's pretty much pointless to wait on that.

Quote
3. It doesn't seem to me that the two sides are working out hte logistics of such a move - which means that while the Laity is calling for the unification, the Clergy and administrators aren't moving towards it seriously enough (yet).

Again, my understanding is that Met. Philip is strongly pushing. Given the sensitive nature of the subject and the outside political considerdations, I doubt we'd hear much about actual efforts until it's about to be announced.

In Christ,

J-D
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« Reply #75 on: December 23, 2005, 02:34:08 AM »

All the best to you, Truth or Bust  Smiley
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« Reply #76 on: December 23, 2005, 02:35:30 AM »

Again, my understanding is that Met. Philip is strongly pushing. Given the sensitive nature of the subject and the outside political considerdations, I doubt we'd hear much about actual efforts until it's about to be announced.

Really?  Wow.  I thought that things had really cooled off between Antioch and the OCA lately.  Though I have noticed people trying to get friendly again over the last few months, it's true. 
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« Reply #77 on: December 23, 2005, 02:56:33 AM »

Again, my understanding is that Met. Philip is strongly pushing. Given the sensitive nature of the subject and the outside political considerdations, I doubt we'd hear much about actual efforts until it's about to be announced.

That's not what I've heard from reliable sources, my understanding is that such a union will never happen under Philip, even with the blessing of Antioch, at least not unless the Greek Archdiocese is in on it as well; but, of course, he probably won't be Metropolitan too much longer, though even after his retirement I dont see a union between the Russians and Antiochians in the near future. Furthermore, I can tell you that the recently revealed financial scandal in the OCA didn't make such a move any more likely. The bottom line is that while such a union would be benificial to the OCA, it would be damaging to the Antiochians in this country who only stand to inherit financial problems and loose recognition from the Orthodox Churches, it is most probable that all four Ancient Patriarchates would excommunicate the Antiochians in this Country if they tried to pull such a stunt.
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« Reply #78 on: December 23, 2005, 04:42:55 AM »

...between the Russians and Antiochians in the near future.
Yeah, the "Russians".  When my dad says this, I ask him if I should refer to him as the "Arabs" (his church since he goes to an Antiochian parish - the one I grew up in and we converted).

Even though I am most likely to refer to the GOA or those in it as "the Greeks", I try to clarify or avoid it depending on context.  Even though it may be most accurate proportionally, it still isn't a good thing necessarily.


Furthermore, I can tell you that the recently revealed financial scandal in the OCA didn't make such a move any more likely.
Not exactly the brightest hour of the Synod or Metropolitanate.
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« Reply #79 on: December 23, 2005, 06:22:48 AM »

I find the Indian Orthodox Church to be very proper, especially since it lacks much of the internal politics of other churches:

www.indianorthodoxchurch.org

On the other hand, these politics sadly do exist in India while not in the United States.

Peace.
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« Reply #80 on: December 23, 2005, 12:36:21 PM »


Indian Orthodox Church is Orthodox in name, but not Orthodox. Plus the American version has Vagante elements - Archbishop Fred and Co.
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« Reply #81 on: December 23, 2005, 01:25:48 PM »

I find the Indian Orthodox Church to be very proper, especially since it lacks much of the internal politics of other churches:   

Huh?  So the lack of politics is your mind makes this jurisdiction "very proper?"  There were "church politics" involved even in New Testament times!  I know we'd like to see churches w/o politics, but I don't think they'd be true, only because the True Church will be attacked constantly from without and within.
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« Reply #82 on: December 23, 2005, 07:55:56 PM »

All the best to you, Truth or Bust  Smiley

Thanks! I will need all of the well wishing I can get in this new way of life I have chosen.

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #83 on: December 23, 2005, 10:11:11 PM »

Indian Orthodox Church is Orthodox in name, but not Orthodox.

You are free to have such an uninformed, misguided opinion. But please do not lead potential converts to the Orthodox faith into such untruth.

Peace.
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« Reply #84 on: December 24, 2005, 12:44:01 AM »

You are free to have such an uninformed, misguided opinion. But please do not lead potential converts to the Orthodox faith into such untruth.

The inquirer is looking for the ideal jurisdiction within Eastern Orthodoxy. It makes sense then for people here to point him away from non-EO assemblies such as the Oriental Orthodox.
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« Reply #85 on: December 24, 2005, 12:53:34 AM »

Since we have EO and OO posters here and both sides are represented here, might i suggest that if someone posts in the OO section that they are thinking of joining the OO Church, EO not try to nab them, and vice versa? Of course many of us are not sycretistic but outright baiting like that isn't very effective anyway. Now if someone comes asking questions as to which body to join, i fully expect a rumble and spirited debate.

Just my suggestion; nothing official.

A.
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« Reply #86 on: December 24, 2005, 04:44:47 AM »

The inquirer is looking for the ideal jurisdiction within Eastern Orthodoxy.

I am merely pointing out that Orthodoxy isn't limited to the Byzantine Church. The OP does not specify that we are only discussing Eastern Orthodoxy.

peace.
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« Reply #87 on: December 24, 2005, 10:26:27 AM »

I am merely pointing out that Orthodoxy isn't limited to the Byzantine Church. The OP does not specify that we are only discussing Eastern Orthodoxy.

peace.

Isn't Orthodox Jurisdictions somewhat set up to accommodate various ethnic heritages? Its natural.  I went to the Indian Orthodox link and followed another to an OO parish in the town I am visiting for the holidays.  My first impression was one of joy when I saw the ethnic Indians gathered around in worship of Christ!  If the gospel is to be preached to every living creature it stands to reason that we will find many jurisdictions to accommodate many peoples.

Glory be to Christ for the Indian Church! 

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #88 on: December 24, 2005, 11:00:19 AM »

Indian Orthodox Church is Orthodox in name, but not Orthodox.

Speak for your own Church, don't presume to speak for mine. 

Quote
Plus the American version has Vagante elements - Archbishop Fred and Co.

The American version of Eastern Orthodoxy has vagante elements like Bishop George Michael and the Most. Rev. Marilyn L. Sieg:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/5793/
http://www.ohioocc.org/our_presiding_bishop.htm

And? 

I understand the concern not to try and steer away someone already interested in EOxy, and specifically ROCOR, by recommending an Orthodox (Oriental) Church, and I agree with you, and against Matthew777.  But how you chose to combat him was immature, and unlike other members of your Church.

Anyway, our Church is certainly not without politics, in India or here.  Matthew777 lives far away in the land of blissful ignorance...simultaneously a blessing and a curse.         
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« Reply #89 on: December 24, 2005, 03:29:56 PM »

I offend - mea culpa.   But Orthodox is Orthodox not Byzantine Catholic Orthodox or Monophysites.  Yeah i know you have friends - i have friends too who are Jewish. If the latter posted a loaded or moronic statement on this board, i would take them to task.  Stop this syncretic pussy-footing and move that OO trouble-maker to the OO folder where he belongs.  I quote from your OO policy:
If a thread is started with what we determine to be a loaded question, we reserve the right to delete it.

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