Chosing a proper Jurisdiction

[GiC]

11th Homily on Ephesians.

[serb1389]

Thanks a lot!  Time to get reading...

[Pravoslavbob]

Oh, I can't remember which father I was reading that said that "schismatics" are actually worse than "heretics" for dividing the Body of Christ over something less than a dogmatic issue...

Well, sometimes this is so, and sometimes it is not.  It still doesn't mean that heresy and schism are synonymous.

[Fr. George]

Well, sometimes this is so, and sometimes it is not.  It still doesn't mean that heresy and schism are synonymous.

The real point is that division of the body of Christ is to be taken very seriously, and when done for merely administrative purposes, the Church has very harsh pronouncements.

[serb1389]

The real point is that division of the body of Christ is to be taken very seriously, and when done for merely administrative purposes, the Church has very harsh pronouncements.

Like what?  How do you think this correlates to the question of ecclisiological heresy I brought up in Faith Issues???

[GiC]

Like what?  How do you think this correlates to the question of ecclisiological heresy I brought up in Faith Issues???

It's not heresy, ecclesiological or otherwise, it's schism...but the canons apply the same penality as is applied for heresy, anathema.

[serb1389]

So what we're talking about here is administrative schizm?  What are we "schizaming" from??  

[Fr. George]

administrative schism, non-dogmatic schism (like if two churches were to split over the doctrine of the Assumption), and others; in the end, schism (in the sense that the fathers condemn it) is dividing the Church over issues non-dogmatic in nature; but "schism" from heretical bishops is different...

[serb1389]

So is a schizm really happening?  Are we dividing the church? Are we dividing ourselves FROM the church?  

I personally think that if the definition is division, then that's exactly what we are doing.  But at the same time, I could make the same case for the different jurisdictons, without the American context.  Yet, that situation has become an accepted way of being for the Orthodox church.  So what does that mean for America?  

I would say that this is a totally different context b/c its 1 country dealing with all the jurisdictions.  Not the whole world, which is totally different.  

[Fr. George]

So is a schizm really happening?  Are we dividing the church? Are we dividing ourselves FROM the church?  

I personally think that if the definition is division, then that's exactly what we are doing.  But at the same time, I could make the same case for the different jurisdictons, without the American context.  Yet, that situation has become an accepted way of being for the Orthodox church.  So what does that mean for America?  

I would say that this is a totally different context b/c its 1 country dealing with all the jurisdictions.  Not the whole world, which is totally different.  

Don'y you have a thread dedicated to this subject?  use this post to resurrect that thread!

[serb1389]

I think I should just put the link up, to make it easier for others...

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=8250.new#new

[A Sombra]

Silouan wrote:

    "The theory that makes the most sense to me is that many of the current MP people in power were not actual KGB agents,   rather they were the Orthodox Christians within the Church most favored by Soviet authorities (and for reasons such as least likely to connect with the people, least likely to advocate a religious fight against the government).  So while this is hardly the ideal situation of a free Church, it is a far cry from bishops who are actual KGB agents."

   Following is part of the indictment of George Trofimoff, a U.S. citizen working as a civilianin military intelligence for the U.S. Government. Mr. Trofimoff was convicted of espionage against the U.S., and was RECRUITED as a KGB agent by Metropolitan Iriney (Susemihl) of Vienna and Austira of the Moscow Patriarchate. RECRUITING agents would hardly be a task of someone who was "not an actual KGB agent" but someone who was "favored by the Soviet authorities."

Item: 18. Igor  Vladimirovich Susemihl, a/k/a Zuzemihl, also called “Iriney,” was a  priest of the Russian Orthodox church who served as the Archbishop of  Vienna and Austria and Temporary Archbishop of Baden and Bavaria, and  later served as Metropolitan of Vienna and Austria, and who resided in  the vicinity of Munich, Federal Republic of Germany, until his death in  1999.


19. The  defendant GEORGE TROFIMOFF was raised in Germany with Susemihl, who was  also the son of Russian émigrés, and TROFIMOFF considered Susemihl to  be his “brother.” Beginning during the 1960s, TROFIMOFF and Susemihl  met often and maintained a close personal relationship.


20. In or  about 1969, after the defendant GEORGE TROFIMOFF became the Chief of the  United States Army Element at the Nuernberg JIC, Susemihl recruited him  into the service of the KGB.


(1) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF secretly took classified United States documents relating to  the national defense away from the Nuernberg JIC.


(2) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF secretly photographed classified United States documents  relating to the national defense.


(3) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF secretly removed and replaced staples in classified United  States documents relating to the national defense in order to photograph  the documents' contents.


(4) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF secretly returned classified United States documents relating  to the national defense to the Nuernberg JIC.


(5) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF purchased a Minox camera at the direction of the KGB, but  “turned it back in” through Igor Susemihl because “it was too  dangerous to have.”


(6) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF used a double-frame camera to photograph the contents of  classified United States documents relating to the national defense.


(7) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF made and used a device to place documents while he  photographed them, “so the page would fit exactly.”


( GEORGE  TROFIMOFF possessed two goose neck lamps in 1994.


(9) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF purchased film.


(10) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF put rolls of exposed film back into their original boxes and  glued the boxes shut.


(11) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF stored boxes of exposed film at his home until he delivered  them to Igor Susemihl.


(12) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF hand carried boxes of exposed film to Igor Susemihl.

The Indictment can be found at: http://cicentre.com/Documents/DOC_Trofimoff_Affidavit.htm
Also see: http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/k/kgb/index.html?

Item:
  In February 1988, exactly thirty years after his recruitment as an agent, Alexei was given an award by the KGB in recognition of his long service for them."
The KGB gives out awards, like other military and secret police establishments, to those who SERVED them, not those whom the government "favored."
See: http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=13868

Also:
 
   "The story of the post-communist Russian Orthodox Church is one of lost opportunities. After the failure of the 1991 pro-communist coup, Gleb Yakunin, a dissident priest and member of the parliament, was briefly given access to a section of the KGB archives which showed that the top hierarchs of the Moscow Patriarchate were agents of the KGB. The most important KGB agent was the Patriarch, Alexei II, himself. Yakunin wrote to Alexei and said that he and other church leaders should . . . ask for forgiveness, pointing out that "our people are forgiving." But only one archbishop, Khrizostom of Lithuania, had the courage to acknowledge that he worked as an agent for the KGB and to reveal his codename, "Restavrator." All of the other implicated church leaders remained silent."

So, Metropolitan Khrizostom of Lithuania ADMITS service as a KGB AGENT, but, there are still those who wish not to acknowledge this, and come up with "theories" that "make the most sense." Sorry, ut appears that evidence has uncermined this "theory," and proven that Bishops and other clergy of the MP (as well as other Orthodox Churches in countries under Soviet control) served the KGB as AGENTS.

[serb1389]

very interesting article...

I don't understand why you posted this though?      

[GiC]

What I fail to understand is how spying against the US is somehow heretical. Guess the definition has REALLY expanded over the last few years

[PeterTheAleut]

See: http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=13868

Also:
 
   "The story of the post-communist Russian Orthodox Church is one of lost opportunities. After the failure of the 1991 pro-communist coup, Gleb Yakunin, a dissident priest and member of the parliament, was briefly given access to a section of the KGB archives which showed that the top hierarchs of the Moscow Patriarchate were agents of the KGB. The most important KGB agent was the Patriarch, Alexei II, himself. Yakunin wrote to Alexei and said that he and other church leaders should . . . ask for forgiveness, pointing out that "our people are forgiving." But only one archbishop, Khrizostom of Lithuania, had the courage to acknowledge that he worked as an agent for the KGB and to reveal his codename, "Restavrator." All of the other implicated church leaders remained silent."

So, Metropolitan Khrizostom of Lithuania ADMITS service as a KGB AGENT, but, there are still those who wish not to acknowledge this, and come up with "theories" that "make the most sense." Sorry, ut appears that evidence has uncermined this "theory," and proven that Bishops and other clergy of the MP (as well as other Orthodox Churches in countries under Soviet control) served the KGB as AGENTS.

So, it's OK for an apparently anti-Moscow, anti-ecumenist such as yourself to use a Roman Catholic web site when you can use the posted information to attack your enemies?

[A Sombra]

HHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMM . . .why did I post that? Um did anyone see at the top, where I typed that part that said "Silouan wrote"? uh- you know what, I typed what Silouan wrote! Silouan wrote (gee I'm typin it again!) that he did not think anyone in power in the MP now was ever a KGB agent for real, just Orthodox Christians "favored by the government." Uh I really dont get that at all Silouan-but oh well anyway-then I put all that other stuff in there to show that Hierarchs of the MP were actually KGB agents!
Did I say spying against the US was heretical in there? Uh let me see-uh-nope I did not say that. Perhaps you could show me? Huh?
The info about Metropolitan Khrizostom was proabably on the Catholic website because Lithuania is mainly a Catholic country. How am I attacking anyone? It is pretty much common knowledge that MP Hierarchs were KGB agents. Its what they call-uh-let me think now-yeh-a historical fact! Thats it! but it seemed like ole Silouan didnt know that, he had come up with the "best idea" of what happened in the Soviet Union on his own, so I just thought I would share that uh-what did I say it was? oh yeh-that historical fact with him.
And ya know i am reeeeeellllllllleeeeeeeeeee sorry about that catholic website an all-uh-i bet you only get ALL your information from Orthodox sources though huh? tell me how ya do that i would really like ta know -
and um-hows come you think someone HAS to be attackin enemies when they simply cite on a them things-uh -them historical facts? i dont know you-i dont know who your enemies are-i dont even gots enemies that i know of! but i guess you thin i do huh? wow -u liek ta assume stuff huh-ya know what they say about that haha! sounds like anti moscow anti ecumenist peoples r ur enemies huh? did like one of em do somthin bad to ya one time or somthin? sorry-hope they didnt hurt ya or nuthin-i guess not guess they just make u all mad an stuff huh? cause let me tall ya it sounded like u was ALL mad when you said that! wow i thought that greekls guy is all mad! so hope ya aint all mad anynore ok u kno it aint good to be all mad for a long time its bad for ur heart an stuff u shouldnt worry too much just be all happy ok its more fun that way ya cant have fun when ur mad now can ya???
oh i get it u say stuff like so its ok antimoscowantiecumenist roman catholic website when ur all mad an u wana attack ur enemies huh? i get it!!! i guess -uh if im like all wrong an stuf maybe u can tell me why u posted that ok?

[Didymus]

Truth_or_Bust, forgive me please for not following this but now that ROCOR is united with the Russian Orthodox Church I take it your troubles have eased. As I know the Coptic Pope and the Russian Patriarch are close I hope that our Churches may enter into inter-communion in our lifetime!

[serb1389]

A Sombra,

I hope that you did not misunderstand my question.  I asked why you posted because I genuinly did not understand why you posted.  If you thought that I was trying to take a "stab" at you...I wasn't.  Please forgive me if this came accross in any way. 

Ultimately I'm confused, because if I understand you correctly, you posted your facts in order to show us that MP bishops were KGB spies. 

My next honest question (again not trying to poke at you) is, so what?  So what if they were?  I'm not saying I agree or disagree, I just want to know where you're comming from on this and where you want to go. 

Thank you in advance for your understanding.   

[A Sombra]

serb1389,
  ok here i go i will try again-SILOUAN WROTE (i havent looked yet again for the exact quote) something to the effect thathe did not think that any MP Bishops were "KGB Agents," but "Orthodox Christians favored by the government" -he said soemthing liek that was the best idea he could come up with to describe it-some thing like that-
so, first of all, the only reason I posted that was to show that there were MP Bishops who were ACTUAL KGB AGENTS-i never said SPIES, ok? Im pther words, this person was  mistaken about a historical fact that has to do with Orthodoxy, and I wanted to gibe him the correct infomration.
"SO WHAT?" A KGB AGENT is something very much different than a spy. In many instances, clergy (Bishops and priests) serving as KGB agents actively helped the communist government in its effort to destroy the Church by helping to close churhes, as well as persecuting believers, informing on beleivers, etc., at times resulting in these believers serving years of living hell in the gulag, or resulting in their death. Read about the New Martyrs of Russia, especailly the Bishops and Ckergy who did not support Met. Sergius and his decree of support for the bolsheviks.
"SO WHAT?" First of all, if you think of KGB only as "spies," well, then you dont know anything about the KGB; secondly, if you do know about the KGB, then you would not be so flip as to say "SO WHAT!" about a Bishop or priest being a KGB agent. "SO WHAT if KGB masquerading as clergy informed on Orthodox Christians, which led to their death or imprisonment?" SO WHAT like that? SO WHAT if KGB masquerading as clergy went to Western Europe and swore on the Cross and Gospels that there was "no persecution of the Church in Russia", when the whole world knew there was, thereby making fools of ALL Orthodox clergy before the world, as well as denigrating the struggle of the Holy Martyrs in Russia, also while showing a complete disrespect for the Cross and the Gospels? DO you mean SO WHAT like that? You yourself would not be "worried" about such so-called "clergy" if you had to go to those clergy yourself for confession, or had to depend upon them for anything?
  So-serb1389-do you get it now or what? and before anybody else flips out about my "enemies" or any other such nonsense, you know what? read about it-Father Gleb Yakunin was the Russian Orthodox priest who found most of this information in the KGB archives while he was a member of the Russian Duma (parliament)-before anybody starts crying or getting all apoplectic or thei r briefs in a bunch, anything, Father Gleb is not nor never has been in ROCOR or supported any other "Traditionalist" or -OH MY GOD! non-scoba jurisdiction, and is generally regarded as an upstanding, truthful, honorable man;
   I know that they had problems in Serbia with such things, of course, not on the same scale as in Russia; at any rate, I dont know-such replies really kinda knock me for a loop-if someone who is Orthodox is really that-lets say unknowledgable about the persecution of Orthodox Christians on the greatest scale ever in the history of the world-what can i say? it is sad-
the communists were COMPLETELY in control in russia-that is accepted as historical fact, right? well-what does "comepletely in control" mean? they were also comepletly in control of the Orthodox Church in Russia-every Patirarch who was "elected," every Bishop who was consecrated, every priest who was ordained-ALL had to be approved by the government (so PLEASE spare me the "it was just like it was with the Turks" routine, OK?) so, is it really that UNBELIEVABLE that the governemnt would put some of their men in there? is it that "CRAZY" that they would not choose only upstanding staunch orthodox monastics as Bishops?
  so-where am i coming from-telling silouan about historical fact-where do i wanna "go" with it? where can i go? am i gonna condemn the entire MP because of it? no DO i ahve som eother antiMP agenda with this? no so YOU TELL ME-where did you fear i would "GO"? where could i "GO"? i am really serious here to answers to these questions -or, also-please tell me-would you rather just not hear or know abouot such things that happened in the past? dont care much about hitory of the orthodox church? or what? i dont get what you are going at -truly-

[A Sombra]

greekischristian wrote:
 
  "What I fail to understand is how spying against the US is somehow heretical . . . "

  As I never said anything in my post even REMOTELY close to such nonsense, I fail to understand how you came up with that foolishness-unless your intention is to simply claim that i wrote something that i did not write-uh-perhaps you can tell me-what did they call that in the byzantine empire-you know, when someone says something about another person that is not true, or anywhere even remotely close to the truth? did they have a name for that in the "EMPIRE"

[A Sombra]

Peter the Aleut wrote:

   "So, it's OK for an apparently anti-Moscow, anti-ecumenist such as yourself to use a Roman Catholic web site when you can use the posted information to attack your enemies?"

  Wow, you really must think you know everything about me there is to know, huh? Tell me how you know so much about me-who are my enemies? how was I "attacking" anyone? I must say, your post was pretty hateful and nasty for someone who goes around on internet forums calling himself by a saints name! Do you often accuse people like that, or, you just like me in particular? Cmon now dont be shy-you were awful quick with it -care to back it up with something other than more nastiness?

[PeterTheAleut]

A Sombra,

Is it better to be right or contrite?

[serb1389]

So I would like to start my comments with this.  Not everyone knows what you know, I know this may be hard to believe, but that's the reality my friend.  No one here, as far as I know can read your mind, unless I am mistaken about that also. 

Also, aparantly, not all of us are as smart as you are.  So instead of jumping down my throat about it, you could have taken this opportunity to teach me something about things that you obviously think you are well versed in.  But, instead, you decided to "break me down" instead of "building me up"....but hey, that's neither here nor there. 

I am a very direct person.  I learn best by people being direct with their points and not convoluding things.  This is why I was so blunt.  If you have a problem with my learning style...well...i'm sorry. 

serb1389,
  ok here i go i will try again-SILOUAN WROTE (i havent looked yet again for the exact quote) something to the effect thathe did not think that any MP Bishops were "KGB Agents," but "Orthodox Christians favored by the government" -he said soemthing liek that was the best idea he could come up with to describe it-some thing like that-
so, first of all, the only reason I posted that was to show that there were MP Bishops who were ACTUAL KGB AGENTS-i never said SPIES, ok? Im pther words, this person was  mistaken about a historical fact that has to do with Orthodoxy, and I wanted to gibe him the correct infomration.

Thank you for giving us the correct information. 

"SO WHAT?" A KGB AGENT is something very much different than a spy. In many instances, clergy (Bishops and priests) serving as KGB agents actively helped the communist government in its effort to destroy the Church by helping to close churhes, as well as persecuting believers, informing on beleivers, etc., at times resulting in these believers serving years of living hell in the gulag, or resulting in their death. Read about the New Martyrs of Russia, especailly the Bishops and Ckergy who did not support Met. Sergius and his decree of support for the bolsheviks.

I agree with your begining point.  A KGB agent is very different than a spy.  However not all KGB agents have the same job.  Some are spies, some are killers.  And unless you were personally involved and a part of the KGB at the same time as these bishops and were directly linked to them...you ultimately do not know what their capacity was as KGB agents. 

Sure, the bishops such as Met. Sergius made "stupid decisions" but can they directly be linked to killings?  They may have supported a government that was brutal and killers of millions of people, but you mean to tell me that every bishop ever in the history of the church was on the "right side" at all times?  Give me a break. 

I am definitely NOT trying to support these men for what they did.  However you are pointing fingers at many different things without supporting your hypothesis.  Unfortunately, i'm not willing to "just take your word for it"...sorry. 

"SO WHAT?" First of all, if you think of KGB only as "spies," well, then you dont know anything about the KGB; secondly, if you do know about the KGB, then you would not be so flip as to say "SO WHAT!" about a Bishop or priest being a KGB agent. "SO WHAT if KGB masquerading as clergy informed on Orthodox Christians, which led to their death or imprisonment?" SO WHAT like that? SO WHAT if KGB masquerading as clergy went to Western Europe and swore on the Cross and Gospels that there was "no persecution of the Church in Russia", when the whole world knew there was, thereby making fools of ALL Orthodox clergy before the world, as well as denigrating the struggle of the Holy Martyrs in Russia, also while showing a complete disrespect for the Cross and the Gospels? DO you mean SO WHAT like that? You yourself would not be "worried" about such so-called "clergy" if you had to go to those clergy yourself for confession, or had to depend upon them for anything?

As I said above.  I like to get to the point.  I wasn't being flip.  maybe I am not as eloquent as you are?  Did you think about that?  Maybe i'm really foreign and I couldn't think of a better way to ask you?  Did you try to help me as opposed to labeling me?  I think not..but hey...that's neither here nor there. 

I have gone to these clergy for confession my friend.  Have you ever lived in Communism?  I have.  Maybe you should have asked me first. 

p.s. on that, its a heresy to think that the confession is worthless just because the person of the priest is worthless.  The sanctity of the priesthood is exactly that, no matter WHAT the priest does.  If he's a heretic and declared so and excommunicated or defrocked...that might be a different conversation, but it isn't.  So....yah. 

So-serb1389-do you get it now or what? and before anybody else flips out about my "enemies" or any other such nonsense, you know what? read about it-Father Gleb Yakunin was the Russian Orthodox priest who found most of this information in the KGB archives while he was a member of the Russian Duma (parliament)-before anybody starts crying or getting all apoplectic or thei r briefs in a bunch, anything, Father Gleb is not nor never has been in ROCOR or supported any other "Traditionalist" or -OH MY GOD! non-scoba jurisdiction, and is generally regarded as an upstanding, truthful, honorable man;

I do get your point now.  You could have explained it to me without tearing me down, and I still would have gotten it.  So think about that.  You could have been nice and helped me understand, or you could have been overbearing and explained it, and I would have understood.  Which do you think would have been the better way to go?  Obviously you chose the latter route...

I'm sure Father Gleb has many good things to say about the situation.  What's wrong with SCOBA?  I'm sure Father Gleb never had a problem with SCOBA...you seem to though (?)...hm. 

I know that they had problems in Serbia with such things, of course, not on the same scale as in Russia; at any rate, I dont know-such replies really kinda knock me for a loop-if someone who is Orthodox is really that-lets say unknowledgable about the persecution of Orthodox Christians on the greatest scale ever in the history of the world-what can i say? it is sad-the communists were COMPLETELY in control in russia-that is accepted as historical fact, right? well-what does "comepletely in control" mean? they were also comepletly in control of the Orthodox Church in Russia-every Patirarch who was "elected," every Bishop who was consecrated, every priest who was ordained-ALL had to be approved by the government (so PLEASE spare me the "it was just like it was with the Turks" routine, OK?) so, is it really that UNBELIEVABLE that the governemnt would put some of their men in there? is it that "CRAZY" that they would not choose only upstanding staunch orthodox monastics as Bishops?

HAHAHAHA  You think that i'm ignorant about the persecutions?  I lived through those persecutions in Serbia my friend.  I wanted to hear YOUR thoughts on everything, not mine.

I wanted to find out where YOU were comming from and what YOU had to bring to the table.  I did this because I know nothing about you.  So I sent out simple one line questions so that you could be open ended with your responses.  And this is where THAT has led us. 

You know...I actually agree with almost everything you are bringing up.  Maybe if you had taken the time to ask me in a nice way you would have realized that.  I am just as passionate as you about these bishops selling out on Christ and the Gospel.  However, its not like it hasn't happened before, so lets get a grip on ourselves and take a look historically how this was handled and then put forward a SOLUTION.  Just a thought. 

so-where am i coming from-telling silouan about historical fact-where do i wanna "go" with it? where can i go? am i gonna condemn the entire MP because of it? no DO i ahve som eother antiMP agenda with this? no so YOU TELL ME-where did you fear i would "GO"? where could i "GO"? i am really serious here to answers to these questions -or, also-please tell me-would you rather just not hear or know abouot such things that happened in the past? dont care much about hitory of the orthodox church? or what? i dont get what you are going at -truly-

Where can you go?  I just told you above.  You can look at other historical situations where bishops were a part of killing of people, and see what the reaction of the church was, and then draw a conclusion and parallel diagram between the two situations and then put forward a SOLUTION to the church based on your findings from the situation before. 

There is one thing you can do.  You can also go on this forum and discuss with people in a calm and wonderfully eloquent way about the situation and ask people for advice on what we can do about it.  It all starts from grass roots my friend. 

Unfortunately I am not sure you are looking for a solution.  Otherwise you wouldn't have beat me over the head with your words. 

I love the history of the church.  It does not seem like you do, otherwise you would have already found a parallel situation and figured out that this is not a new situation.  Maybe the scale is bigger and more people are involved, who are still alive, etc.  but ultimately its much like other situations in the church. 

I wouldn't know this if I didn't like church history would I? 

Now for me to get a little bit more passionate since this is what you aparantly responde to best. 

If you think that I am STUPID enough to NOT know anything about this, you are wrong.  If you would take the time to search my posts you will see that I am the BIGGEST crazy person on this site who calls out bishops for what they do.  Do a search I'm sure you won't be disapointed. 

I have been fighting ANTI-CHRIST people my whole life who came to the US after communism and I have lit a FIRE underneath them because of what they have done. 

I sincerely hope you PM me about this because you and I need to talk my friend.  There are definitely more things that need to be said between you and I. 

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