So I would like to start my comments with this. Not everyone knows what you know, I know this may be hard to believe, but that's the reality my friend. No one here, as far as I know can read your mind, unless I am mistaken about that also.
Also, aparantly, not all of us are as smart as you are. So instead of jumping down my throat about it, you could have taken this opportunity to teach me something about things that you obviously think you are well versed in. But, instead, you decided to "break me down" instead of "building me up"....but hey, that's neither here nor there.
I am a very direct person. I learn best by people being direct with their points and not convoluding things. This is why I was so blunt. If you have a problem with my learning style...well...i'm sorry.
ok here i go i will try again-SILOUAN WROTE (i havent looked yet again for the exact quote) something to the effect thathe did not think that any MP Bishops were "KGB Agents," but "Orthodox Christians favored by the government" -he said soemthing liek that was the best idea he could come up with to describe it-some thing like that-
so, first of all, the only reason I posted that was to show that there were MP Bishops who were ACTUAL KGB AGENTS-i never said SPIES, ok? Im pther words, this person was mistaken about a historical fact that has to do with Orthodoxy, and I wanted to gibe him the correct infomration.
Thank you for giving us the correct information.
"SO WHAT?" A KGB AGENT is something very much different than a spy. In many instances, clergy (Bishops and priests) serving as KGB agents actively helped the communist government in its effort to destroy the Church by helping to close churhes, as well as persecuting believers, informing on beleivers, etc., at times resulting in these believers serving years of living hell in the gulag, or resulting in their death. Read about the New Martyrs of Russia, especailly the Bishops and Ckergy who did not support Met. Sergius and his decree of support for the bolsheviks.
I agree with your begining point. A KGB agent is very different than a spy. However not all KGB agents have the same job. Some are spies, some are killers. And unless you were personally involved and a part of the KGB at the same time as these bishops and were directly linked to them...you ultimately do not know what their capacity was as KGB agents.
Sure, the bishops such as Met. Sergius made "stupid decisions" but can they directly be linked to killings? They may have supported a government that was brutal and killers of millions of people, but you mean to tell me that every bishop ever in the history of the church was on the "right side" at all times? Give me a break.
I am definitely NOT trying to support these men for what they did. However you are pointing fingers at many different things without supporting your hypothesis. Unfortunately, i'm not willing to "just take your word for it"...sorry.
"SO WHAT?" First of all, if you think of KGB only as "spies," well, then you dont know anything about the KGB; secondly, if you do know about the KGB, then you would not be so flip as to say "SO WHAT!" about a Bishop or priest being a KGB agent. "SO WHAT if KGB masquerading as clergy informed on Orthodox Christians, which led to their death or imprisonment?" SO WHAT like that? SO WHAT if KGB masquerading as clergy went to Western Europe and swore on the Cross and Gospels that there was "no persecution of the Church in Russia", when the whole world knew there was, thereby making fools of ALL Orthodox clergy before the world, as well as denigrating the struggle of the Holy Martyrs in Russia, also while showing a complete disrespect for the Cross and the Gospels? DO you mean SO WHAT like that? You yourself would not be "worried" about such so-called "clergy" if you had to go to those clergy yourself for confession, or had to depend upon them for anything?
As I said above. I like to get to the point. I wasn't being flip. maybe I am not as eloquent as you are? Did you think about that? Maybe i'm really foreign and I couldn't think of a better way to ask you? Did you try to help me as opposed to labeling me? I think not..but hey...that's neither here nor there.
I have gone to these clergy for confession my friend. Have you ever lived in Communism? I have. Maybe you should have asked me first.
p.s. on that, its a heresy to think that the confession is worthless just because the person of the priest is worthless. The sanctity of the priesthood is exactly that, no matter WHAT the priest does. If he's a heretic and declared so and excommunicated or defrocked...that might be a different conversation, but it isn't. So....yah.
So-serb1389-do you get it now or what? and before anybody else flips out about my "enemies" or any other such nonsense, you know what? read about it-Father Gleb Yakunin was the Russian Orthodox priest who found most of this information in the KGB archives while he was a member of the Russian Duma (parliament)-before anybody starts crying or getting all apoplectic or thei r briefs in a bunch, anything, Father Gleb is not nor never has been in ROCOR or supported any other "Traditionalist" or -OH MY GOD! non-scoba jurisdiction, and is generally regarded as an upstanding, truthful, honorable man;
I do get your point now. You could have explained it to me without tearing me down, and I still would have gotten it. So think about that. You could have been nice and helped me understand, or you could have been overbearing and explained it, and I would have understood. Which do you think would have been the better way to go? Obviously you chose the latter route...
I'm sure Father Gleb has many good things to say about the situation. What's wrong with SCOBA? I'm sure Father Gleb never had a problem with SCOBA...you seem to though (?)...hm.
I know that they had problems in Serbia with such things, of course, not on the same scale as in Russia; at any rate, I dont know-such replies really kinda knock me for a loop-if someone who is Orthodox is really that-lets say unknowledgable about the persecution of Orthodox Christians on the greatest scale ever in the history of the world-what can i say? it is sad-the communists were COMPLETELY in control in russia-that is accepted as historical fact, right? well-what does "comepletely in control" mean? they were also comepletly in control of the Orthodox Church in Russia-every Patirarch who was "elected," every Bishop who was consecrated, every priest who was ordained-ALL had to be approved by the government (so PLEASE spare me the "it was just like it was with the Turks" routine, OK?) so, is it really that UNBELIEVABLE that the governemnt would put some of their men in there? is it that "CRAZY" that they would not choose only upstanding staunch orthodox monastics as Bishops?
HAHAHAHA You think that i'm ignorant about the persecutions? I lived through those persecutions in Serbia my friend. I wanted to hear YOUR thoughts on everything, not mine.
I wanted to find out where YOU were comming from and what YOU had to bring to the table. I did this because I know nothing about you. So I sent out simple one line questions so that you could be open ended with your responses. And this is where THAT has led us.
You know...I actually agree with almost everything you are bringing up. Maybe if you had taken the time to ask me in a nice way you would have realized that. I am just as passionate as you about these bishops selling out on Christ and the Gospel. However, its not like it hasn't happened before, so lets get a grip on ourselves and take a look historically how this was handled and then put forward a SOLUTION. Just a thought.
so-where am i coming from-telling silouan about historical fact-where do i wanna "go" with it? where can i go? am i gonna condemn the entire MP because of it? no DO i ahve som eother antiMP agenda with this? no so YOU TELL ME-where did you fear i would "GO"? where could i "GO"? i am really serious here to answers to these questions -or, also-please tell me-would you rather just not hear or know abouot such things that happened in the past? dont care much about hitory of the orthodox church? or what? i dont get what you are going at -truly-
Where can you go? I just told you above. You can look at other historical situations where bishops were a part of killing of people, and see what the reaction of the church was, and then draw a conclusion and parallel diagram between the two situations and then put forward a SOLUTION to the church based on your findings from the situation before.
There is one thing you can do. You can also go on this forum and discuss with people in a calm and wonderfully eloquent way about the situation and ask people for advice on what we can do about it. It all starts from grass roots my friend.
Unfortunately I am not sure you are looking for a solution. Otherwise you wouldn't have beat me over the head with your words.
I love the history of the church. It does not seem like you do, otherwise you would have already found a parallel situation and figured out that this is not a new situation. Maybe the scale is bigger and more people are involved, who are still alive, etc. but ultimately its much like other situations in the church.
I wouldn't know this if I didn't like church history would I?
Now for me to get a little bit more passionate since this is what you aparantly responde to best.
If you think that I am STUPID enough to NOT know anything about this, you are wrong. If you would take the time to search my posts you will see that I am the BIGGEST crazy person on this site who calls out bishops for what they do. Do a search I'm sure you won't be disapointed.
I have been fighting ANTI-CHRIST people my whole life who came to the US after communism and I have lit a FIRE underneath them because of what they have done.
I sincerely hope you PM me about this because you and I need to talk my friend. There are definitely more things that need to be said between you and I.