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Author Topic: Chosing a proper Jurisdiction  (Read 15643 times) Average Rating: 0
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Truth_or_Bust
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« on: December 09, 2005, 06:49:54 PM »

Greetings,
I am curious to know the opinions of some established Orthodox here concerning
acceptable Jurisdictions.  From my studies in the last five months I have come to understand
that there is a measure of politics as to what is considered acceptable.   My concern is
being received into Orthodoxy in a canonically proper method.  Also, I travel quite a bit
and there is a good chance I will need to attend Parishes in various jurisdictions.  I want
to make sure my conversion into Orthodoxy is correct.

Having said that I wanted to get some feedback on the general perspective concerning the status
of ROCOR.  I have been attending a ROCOR Church and am about to become a Cathecuman with plans
on being Baptised the Saturday before Pascha '06 (!!!).  This has been a long study for me so far but now
I am learning of the politics.   This is a very important step for me and I wanted to hear some comments
on my situation of very possibly having to attend various Parishes when traveling.  It is obviously important
that my conversion be canonical in every way.

Thanks for any comments on this issue,
Truth or Bust
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2005, 07:13:35 PM »

I don't want to dishearten you but if you join ROCOR you will not be accepted by the main Orthodox Jurisdictions, although in some parishes the priest doesn't always object. Why ROCOR? Is that you intro to Orthodoxy?  When ROCOR joins MP, you won't have this problem.
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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2005, 07:31:00 PM »

I don't want to dishearten you but if you join ROCOR you will not be accepted by the main Orthodox Jurisdictions, although in some parishes the priest doesn't always object. Why ROCOR? Is that you intro to Orthodoxy?ÂÂ  When ROCOR joins MP, you won't have this problem.

If ROCOR feeds you with the spiritual nourishment you need then by all means join.  It is only a matter of time that ROCOR & MP will achieve reunion.  Don't be bothered by political circumstances that affected the church in the past.

 If the jurisdiction is within SCOBA it is a canonical jurisidiction plus the MP.

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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2005, 08:19:48 PM »

I agree with Orthodoc.  In case you're wondering which are the SCOBA jurisdictions, here's a link:  http://www.scoba.us/jurisdictions/

May God's blessings be upon you during your catechumenate!

BJohnD
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2005, 09:29:33 PM »

Having said that I wanted to get some feedback on the general perspective concerning the status
of ROCOR.  I have been attending a ROCOR Church and am about to become a Cathecuman with plans
on being Baptised the Saturday before Pascha '06 (!!!).

Strange, most churches I've heard of think that 2 or 3 years is an ideal term in the catechumenate before being baptised or charismated. Your priest must think you're making great spiritual progress, in which case glory to God.
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2005, 09:47:31 PM »

It was my impression that a two to three year catechumenate these days is a bit lengthy.

As for ROCOR. It's my understanding that you would be able to receive in most non-ROCOR parishes without it being an issue. I've only heard of ROCOR members being turned away by the Greek Archdiocese, and have never heard of any of the various Slavic jurisdictions turning away ROCOR members. I've attended both OCA and ROCOR parishes regularly, being able, without any problem, to receive in both.
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« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2005, 11:11:55 AM »

I don't want to dishearten you but if you join ROCOR you will not be accepted by the main Orthodox Jurisdictions, although in some parishes the priest doesn't always object. Why ROCOR? Is that you intro to Orthodoxy?ÂÂ  When ROCOR joins MP, you won't have this problem.

Thank you for your strait forward comments.  I have heard similar remarks so I understand your position. 

Why ROCOR?  I live quite far from any Parishes and, through my travels and studies, have found this Parish and Priest to "feel like home".  I have developed a comfortable level of communication with this Priest as well.  ROCOR was not my introduction into Orthodoxy, just the Parish that I made a connection with from my other visits to various Parishes.   I did visit one ROC Parish and did not get a very good impression from that particular Church in comparision to the UOC, JER, ROCOR, GOA and OCA's I visited..

My main question to you in light of this perspective is this:  Are you suggesting that Baptism and Chrismation from a ROCOR Priest will not bestow upon me the Holy Spirit due to their seperation form MP?  I understand the importance of Apostolic procession so I am wanting to make sure they have it.  Also, the Priest was very strait forward about the situation with MP.

Thanks to all for your comments and I look forward to seeing the responses to my situation.

God Bless,
T

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« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2005, 11:15:13 AM »

I agree with Orthodoc.ÂÂ  In case you're wondering which are the SCOBA jurisdictions, here's a link:ÂÂ  http://www.scoba.us/jurisdictions/

May God's blessings be upon you during your catechumenate!

BJohnD

Greetings!  I have presented my situation to SCOBA and they told me that the JER and ROCOR jurisdictions might present a problem if I were to attempt to receive at SCOBA member Churches.   This is why I am mulling all of this over with great consideration.

Thanks for your encouragement!
T
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« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2005, 11:16:56 AM »

It was my impression that a two to three year catechumenate these days is a bit lengthy.

As for ROCOR. It's my understanding that you would be able to receive in most non-ROCOR parishes without it being an issue. I've only heard of ROCOR members being turned away by the Greek Archdiocese, and have never heard of any of the various Slavic jurisdictions turning away ROCOR members. I've attended both OCA and ROCOR parishes regularly, being able, without any problem, to receive in both.

Thanks for your comments.  This is what the ROCOR Priest said as well when I asked him about my travel situation.  He said it presented a problem more for Priests trying to receive than for lay people.

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2005, 01:43:01 PM »

I don't want to dishearten you but if you join ROCOR you will not be accepted by the main Orthodox Jurisdictions, although in some parishes the priest doesn't always object. Why ROCOR? Is that you intro to Orthodoxy?ÂÂ  When ROCOR joins MP, you won't have this problem.

I don't feel this is entirely accurate. Certainly the OCA would accept him--even officially. At seminary I never saw ROCOR members turned away from confession and communion.ÂÂ  As for the GOA and Antiochians, that might be a different story.

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« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2005, 02:59:45 PM »

<Are you suggesting that Baptism and Chrismation from a ROCOR Priest will not bestow upon me the Holy Spirit due to their seperation form MP?>

NO! It is very confusing at first.  For example Jerusalem P. is not a member of SCOBA and she is the Mother Church where St James served etc.  Again on occasions EP has not recognized OCA etc..  This is a blind spot - the very term jurisdiction is a Vatican term picked up by the Orthodox.  There is no such thing as 'official' - you are either in the Church or not.  At any momemt your 'jurisdiction' could be at odds with some other.  There are some fringe elements in Orthodoxy whose pedigree is suspect, but in the main most Orthodox Churches in the US are ORTHODOX, whichever jurisdiction, ethnic, SCOBA group they belong to. 
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« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2005, 03:08:29 PM »

Thanks everybody for the thoughtful responses. 

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2005, 05:25:48 PM »

Well, for what it's worth, today I was talking to my priest(OCA) about where I should go to church if I move to "the city"(our church is in a suburb of Seattle, and for college I would move to the city itself, and since I have no car...I couldn't exactly get to our suburban parish).  One church that he very much recommended was a ROCOR church.  He also has in the past said that ROCOR members can commune in our OCA church, even though we aren't officially in communion with them, and that I could have communion in that particular ROCOR parish( though of course he means AFTER I am baptized/chrismated- I'm still a catechumen). 
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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2005, 12:03:51 AM »

I have never seen any problems with ROCOR parishioners mixing with non ROCOR churches and Vice Versa. The ROCOR Church under Archbishop ALIPY is considered part of the OCCA in Chicago. They are also extremely supportive of the Pan-Orthodox services held for Thanksgiving and Sunday of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2005, 01:04:47 AM »

For what its worth, I think there's a lot of very complex things to look at.  Its nice to say that everyone loves everyone but at some point you have to take a deeper look at WHY everyone is not in communion with each other.  How is someone going to take communion at a church that is not in communion with another church?  Its a contradiction of terms at the most basic level.  Why is there a contradiction there?  If the TERMS are contradicted can you imaging what the theology is saying?  However, to put things more in perspective a lot of this "not in communion" terminology does revolve around politics.  However where the bishop is, there is the church, in a lot of ways. And the bishops are making these decisions, which is their right.  So these things definately need to be explored more.  At what point do we become good stewards of Christ, His church and His gifts?  Just some things to consider.  Sorry if I cause you further troubles. 
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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2005, 01:36:35 PM »

Slightly off-topic, but I was very heartened to hear our parish priest say at our annual meeting that the thawing of relations between the MP and ROCOR has led to a similar warming between our OCA parish and the local ROCOR one (small example:  the ROCOR parish's priest attended our festival last September).  This is a good thing.
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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2005, 03:02:58 PM »

I have also been hearing the same thing.  I am very comfortable with my ROCOR Parish and Priest and the positive comments on this thread have added to this comfort.   However, I think the point that Serb1389 brings up is valid and from my understanding of the current situation between MP and ROCOR is simply that Russia was under communism and the Church was being compromised by the oppressor for many years (even though ROCOR recognized that there were some good Priests that were worth supporting).   Now that Communism has been defeated it seems there are steps being made toward unity.  I am no expert on the situation so please correct me if I am wrong.  Of course I am only hearing one side of the story as well.  My only concern is that my reception into Orthodoxy be vaild through ROCOR and that my Baptism, Chrismation and partaking of the Mysteries will be Real.

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2005, 04:59:52 PM »

In my non-scholarly, convert, OCA-parish-attending opinion:  You betcha. 
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« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2005, 12:53:23 AM »

In a scholarly, traditional orthodox, SOC-parish attending opinion, you'd better not go to Vegas.  haha.  Seriously, there are a plethera of questions just based on the statement you had before.  You said that you wanted your "reception into Orthodoxy" to be valid.  What do you mean by orthodoxy?  CANNONICAL orthodoxy?  Orthodoxy that is officially accepted and considered part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church?  If you ARE talking about that church, then ROCOR is outside of those lines.  Yes they are making great strides to be reconsiled with the MP, but ultimately they are NOT united.  The cannonical fog you have encountered should make you wonder about the details.  Why exactly IS ROCOR outside of communion?  Where did that division happen and at what points.  Do we just have differences in authority?  Or is it something deeper and theological.  Do they not recognize some aspects of Orthodox theology (Eastern/Byzantine Orthodox)?  Do the Orthodox churches ACCEPT the Baptism, Chrismation and Mysteries of ROCOR?  And if they do NOT, why, and under what circumstances.  Sacraments of the church are not just feeling right, or good about yourself.  We are called to approach the Communion chalice with Faith, Love and the FEAR OF GOD.  I think i've said enough.  Sorry about the capitilization, I wanted to stress some things.   
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« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2005, 01:46:03 AM »

Serb1389, I'd like to remind you that your Patriarch concelebrates with the ROCOR and the close relationship between Archbishop Mark of the ROCOR and the Serbian Church.  If ROCOR is Orthodox to such people as Patriarch Pavle, St. Justin Popović, St. Nikolaj Velimirović et al. I'd personally be slow to condemn them...
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« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2005, 02:00:14 PM »

In a scholarly, traditional orthodox, SOC-parish attending opinion, you'd better not go to Vegas.ÂÂ  haha.ÂÂ  Seriously, there are a plethera of questions just based on the statement you had before.ÂÂ  You said that you wanted your "reception into Orthodoxy" to be valid.ÂÂ  What do you mean by orthodoxy?ÂÂ  CANNONICAL orthodoxy?ÂÂ  Orthodoxy that is officially accepted and considered part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church?ÂÂ  If you ARE talking about that church, then ROCOR is outside of those lines.


Yes, that is exactly what I mean. Cannonical Orthodoxy as in "the real Church".ÂÂ  Can you give me any specifics as to why, from your point of view, that ROCOR is not accepted?ÂÂ  SCOBA has told me that ROCOR used to be a SCOBA member but is no longer because they are considered "cultish".ÂÂ  That does not bother me so much so long as the Mysteries are truly "transmitted".ÂÂ  From my perspective (which is not much), if the Mysteries are truly being transmitted then it would seen that the Cannonical element should be there and all else is politics.ÂÂ  Again, though, I have not  even had Baptism yet so my outlook is weak at best, I admit this.


 
Quote
Yes they are making great strides to be reconsiled with the MP, but ultimately they are NOT united.ÂÂ  The cannonical fog you have encountered should make you wonder about the details.ÂÂ  Why exactly IS ROCOR outside of communion?ÂÂ  Where did that division happen and at what points.ÂÂ  Do we just have differences in authority?ÂÂ  Or is it something deeper and theological.ÂÂ  Do they not recognize some aspects of Orthodox theology (Eastern/Byzantine Orthodox)?ÂÂ  Do the Orthodox churches ACCEPT the Baptism, Chrismation and Mysteries of ROCOR?ÂÂ  And if they do NOT, why, and under what circumstances.ÂÂ  Sacraments of the church are not just feeling right, or good about yourself.ÂÂ  We are called to approach the Communion chalice with Faith, Love and the FEAR OF GOD.ÂÂ  I think i've said enough.ÂÂ  Sorry about the capitilization, I wanted to stress some things.
  ÃƒÆ’‚Â

Well if you would not mind going into some of the details of the above, from your perspective, I would greatly appreciate it as I am sure other readers following this thread would as well.ÂÂ  You bring up many important points that I might not get addressed from ROCOR perspective.

God Bless and thank you for your comments,
T
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« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2005, 02:10:58 PM »

My experience has basically been that for the most part, ROCOR members are welcome into other Orthodox jurisdictions to commune.  It is currently only the clergy who are not to commune or serve together.  Some ROCOR Priests/dioceses, but not all, will advise their members to only commune in ROCOR, Serbian, and Jerusalem Patriarchate parishes. For the most part there are good feelings and actual admiration by many of the SCOBA parsishes and Bishops for the devotion shown by ROCOR Clergy and people.

My the Lord help you on your path to Orthodoxy.

In Christ,
Thomas
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« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2005, 04:18:37 PM »


Wonder what this will mean for the ROCOR churches in the US?  Sounds like the ROCOR people want a sort of automony or autocephally?  Neither of which they can be in the US.  Outside the US maybe, but not within the US.


http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=634720

Orthodoc

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« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2005, 04:45:58 PM »

Wonder what this will mean for the ROCOR churches in the US?ÂÂ  Sounds like the ROCOR people want a sort of automony or autocephally?ÂÂ  Neither of which they can be in the US.ÂÂ  Outside the US maybe, but not within the US.


http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=634720

Orthodoc



They will enter into communion with the MP and that is all. Nothing will change on a local level, according to the recent epistle of Met Laurus.  Some like to say this will interfere with the OCA's autocephaly but really, no one envisioned this happening like this so the OCA is going to have to give a little room so that ROCOR can come back into communion with the MP, if that indeed is what the OCA wants.

Anastasios
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« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2005, 05:18:25 PM »

How can ROCOR only be in communion with MP (in the future) and not be part of the Russian Church?  The OCA is different, not all are Russians and most of the clergy don't speak Russian.  Yes we will be in communion but keep your hands off our hegemony and property.  It could happen but doesn't make sense to me!
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« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2005, 05:34:08 PM »

Ok let me take some of these questions.  I'll try to address everything. If I fail let me know. ÂÂ
Siloan, i'm sorry if you thought that I was condemning anyone.  I'm really not.  I'm just saying what I have learned.  If i'm wrong i'd be MORE than happy to change my opinion.  In fact, in many ways I hope i'm wrong, because that will mean that "truth or bust" will be able to continue on his path!  When you said that our patriarch (Serbian-Pavle) conselebrates with ROCOR bishops, etc.  does he VEST, and actually serve in the capacity as a hierarch, or does he just wear his mantija (cassok)?  There is a very big distinctions..i'd just like to know what you were refering to.  As for Fr. Justin Popovic, Bishop Nikolai and Bishop John, they were part of ROCOR when it had first left Russia.  That meant that the cannonical divide had not been solidified and they were operating in an offical church capacity, outside of Russia.  So basically, they were the OCA of the world, disinfranchized from the MP, and yet still under their auspices.  That relationship has changed GREATLY, and the break has been much more solid than what it was in the 40's.  This is what knowledge I have about it.  Like I said, I could be wrong.  As for questions on the specifics, i'm truly sorry to admit that I really don't know.  I can find out though, which I will try to do as soon as I can, but these things usually take a while cuz you have to dig out documents.  I know that a lot of churches are very integrally involved with ROCOR, but ultimately until the MP accepts them back, or the Ecumenical Patriarchate, OFFICIALLY, they're not in communion.  This is my understanding. ÂÂ

I also agree with Anastasios, I am pretty sure that the MP will take them back, and then the rest can be worked out.  However until that happens I think its kind of a "catch 22" of sorts. ÂÂ
With what Thomas said, good will and relations have been had with the Roman Catholic church for years.  Can we take communion at their churches?  No, because they are not in communion with us, plus the theological reasons, and the schizm of course, etc. ÂÂ
As I said about the details, I would like to find out some things before I go into some of the questions I mentioned.  As for ROCOR leaving SCOBA, that's not a big deal in terms of cannonical problems.  The fact of the matter is that ROCOR has seperated from MP and their authority rests in their Archbishop, who is not recognized by ANY patriarchate as the official autocephalous (or autonomous) leader of that church, blessed and accepted.  I believe this is the root of the problem.  They seperated themselves.  If they are not recognized, how can they be in communion?  As for the continuity of the Sacraments, if they are not connected to a church with Apostolic succession, then their grace becomes fuzzy and so does the legitimacy of everything else.  I wish I could explain myself better but i'm having a tough time right now expressing myself.  I'll try again later.  Like I said, I could be wrong...haha.   ÃƒÆ’‚Â
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« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2005, 05:48:24 PM »

Just something I found.  I don't know how helpful it is, but there is a very interesting quote at the end that I thought i'd share:
http://www.orthodoxy.org.au/eng/index.php?p=164   If the link doesn't come out let me know. 
"the restoration of Eucharistic and Canonical unity with the Mother Church, with an autonomous administration of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, appears to be the natural next Guidepost in the current History of the Church of the Great Russian Exodus into Diaspora."

December 11, 2001. Boston

New Martyr Metropolitan Seraphim

(Chichagov) of St. Petersburg.

Why would he say "eucharistic and cannonical unity" needs to be restored?  I don't have the exact answer, but he said it for a reason.  Anyone?
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« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2005, 05:51:21 PM »

St. Justin accepted ROCOR, as far as I know, until his repose in 1979- well after the ROCOR synod was established outside of Russia.
As for the question of concelebration with Patriarch Pavel, this should help to answer that.
http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesen/news04/pavelausphoto.html
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« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2005, 08:22:36 PM »

As for the continuity of the Sacraments, if they are not connected to a church with Apostolic succession, then their grace becomes fuzzy and so does the legitimacy of everything else.   
This is probably one instance when the Roman Catholic Church with her legalistic mindset has one up on us..as they would say... "valid but illicit"
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« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2005, 12:50:43 AM »

Well that picture definately answers my question.  I had always heard from my priest and others in the SOC who said that relations between ROCOR and the SOC were very good.  Also, after looking at the "charter" of ROCOR they are suppost to be a viable member of the MP outside of Russia.  I believe, however, that they have gone astray from that direction and that identity.  What about the statement of Metropolitan Seraphim.  I really think that there are some serious underlying issues here.  I wish I could say more but I think i've already said every aspect I could think of. 
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« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2005, 09:36:38 AM »

Thanks everybody for the comments.  I guess the only way to find out if the Mysteries as dispensed by ROCOR contain Grace is to continue on with my plans.  I might even have another chat with my Priest on this aspect of the topic. 

One more question though:  If and when ROCOR comes back into communion with MP will there need to be a re-baptism or re-chrismation of ROCOR members? 

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2005, 11:37:35 AM »

Thanks everybody for the comments.ÂÂ  I guess the only way to find out if the Mysteries as dispensed by ROCOR contain Grace is to continue on with my plans.ÂÂ  I might even have another chat with my Priest on this aspect of the topic.ÂÂ  

One more question though:ÂÂ  If and when ROCOR comes back into communion with MP will there need to be a re-baptism or re-chrismation of ROCOR members?ÂÂ  

God Bless,
T

No!

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« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2005, 12:12:42 PM »

St. Justin accepted ROCOR, as far as I know, until his repose in 1979- well after the ROCOR synod was established outside of Russia.
As for the question of concelebration with Patriarch Pavel, this should help to answer that.
http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesen/news04/pavelausphoto.html

Who read the prayers over St Justin when his soul left his body? I believe it was Archbishop Mark of ROCOR.

Anastasios
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« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2005, 12:13:58 PM »

Thanks everybody for the comments.ÂÂ  I guess the only way to find out if the Mysteries as dispensed by ROCOR contain Grace is to continue on with my plans.ÂÂ  I might even have another chat with my Priest on this aspect of the topic.ÂÂ  

One more question though:ÂÂ  If and when ROCOR comes back into communion with MP will there need to be a re-baptism or re-chrismation of ROCOR members?ÂÂ  

God Bless,
T

You misunderstood. No one here denies that ROCOR mysteries have grace NOW.  ROCOR is an Orthodox Church.  Its question vis-a-vis the MP is what is being resolved but it has been in communion with the Serbs all along and with Jerusalem as well.  ROCOR is not returning from schism but healing an administrative problem.

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« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2005, 02:11:08 PM »

You misunderstood. No one here denies that ROCOR mysteries have grace NOW.ÂÂÂ  ROCOR is an Orthodox Church.ÂÂÂ  Its question vis-a-vis the MP is what is being resolved but it has been in communion with the Serbs all along and with Jerusalem as well.ÂÂÂ  ROCOR is not returning from schism but healing an administrative problem.

Anastasios

Thanks for the clarification.ÂÂ  When I read Serb's comment "As for the continuity of the Sacraments, if they are not connected to a church with Apostolic succession, then their grace becomes fuzzy and so does the legitimacy of everything else."ÂÂ  I took it as meaning that their Sacraments are in question in the eyes of some.

Now, upon researching more, I have found that there is also a nasty split within ROCOR over the very issue of reunification with the MP we are discussing.ÂÂ  HuhÂÂ  I did not realize that Metro Vitaly had come out of retirement to oppose Metro Laurus concerning this unification due to the MP's alleged link to Communism.ÂÂ  Metro Vitaly has formed a splinter group called "Russian Orthodox Church in Exile" in response.ÂÂ  When surfing this topic I found one Russian Nationalist poster on a newsgroup saying, "The problems with Alexei II are: 1. he is a confirmed high-ranking KGB agent and 2. he kowtows to the Jews and Freemasons for worldly gain....When the former leader, Metropolitan Vitaly, learned of the direction of his successor Metropolitan Laurus, he immediately rescinded his retirement and created a continuing synod.... His Synod is 100% loyal to the original Karlovsky group. "ÂÂ  

All of this goes much deeper than I anticipated!ÂÂ  So many factors at play, none of which I would have considered.ÂÂ  
All I really care about is the validity of my Baptism and the grace in the Sacraments so thanks again Anastasios for clearing up my
misunderstanding on that item.ÂÂ  I'll leave the politics to the more established Orthodox to hash out.

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2005, 02:49:16 PM »

Now, upon researching more, I have found that there is also a nasty split within ROCOR over the very issue of reunification with the MP we are discussing.ÂÂ  HuhÂÂ  I did not realize that Metro Vitaly had come out of retirement to oppose Metro Laurus concerning this unification due to the MP's alleged link to Communism.ÂÂ  Metro Vitaly has formed a splinter group called "Russian Orthodox Church in Exile" in response.ÂÂ  When surfing this topic I found one Russian Nationalist poster on a newsgroup saying, "The problems with Alexei II are: 1. he is a confirmed high-ranking KGB agent and 2. he kowtows to the Jews and Freemasons for worldly gain....When the former leader, Metropolitan Vitaly, learned of the direction of his successor Metropolitan Laurus, he immediately rescinded his retirement and created a continuing synod.... His Synod is 100% loyal to the original Karlovsky group. "ÂÂ ÂÂ  

Yes, and further hubub has it that there are men behind the face of the retired and mentally suspect Met. Vitaly propping him up to further there own agenda.  So what if Pat. Alexei II WAS a KGB agent in a previous lifetime.  He isn't now.  The second point is complete speculation/opinion.
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« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2005, 03:09:40 PM »

Yes, and further hubub has it that there are men behind the face of the retired and mentally suspect Met. Vitaly propping him up to further there own agenda.  So what if Pat. Alexei II WAS a KGB agent in a previous lifetime.  He isn't now.  The second point is complete speculation/opinion.

I'd agree andI think "was" is the imoprtant word.  St. Paul and St. Mary of Egypt were hardly angels in their past lives, yet the are some of the greatest saints in the Orthodox Church.  We don't judge people by (well actually we shouldn't judge at all, but you know Wink)  their past but by their repentence.  Also, the only time I've seen any hostility with ROCOR and other jurisdictions in RL was with an OCA member, but for the most part I've found "all jurisdictions" (in my admitably short experience) to be supportive of the Church Abroad.
Basically, I think you have the right idea.  Lead the politics to those in charge and worry about living a good Christian life.  There's no doubt that the mysteries are valid.
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« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2005, 03:48:13 PM »

Quote
  So what if Pat. Alexei II WAS a KGB agent in a previous lifetime.  He isn't now.  The second point is complete speculation/opinion.

Some of the "proofs" for the alledged involement of Patr. Alexei with the the KGB are fairly pathetic.  People seem to be very caught up with the fact that he had a codename within the KGB - but if that is evidence of being a soviet agent, that would make President Reagen, Prime Minister Thatcher, Pope John Paul II, Lech WaÅ‚Ä™sa all Soviet agents. 

The theory that makes the most sense to me is that many of the current MP people in power were not actual KGB agents,   rather they were the Orthodox Christians within the Church most favored by Soviet authorities (and for reasons such as least likely to connect with the people, least likely to advocate a religious fight against the government).  So while this is hardly the ideal situation of a free Church, it is a far cry from bishops who are actual KGB agents.  And it should be remembered that the communist weren't always very efficient at barring goodmen from the episcopacy (i.e Karol Cardinal  WojtzÅ‚a of Krakow).
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« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2005, 04:38:46 PM »

Once again thanks for the insights.  I am wrong or am I noticing that ROCOR and ROCA are the same organization?  If not what are the
differences and would ROCA's Sacraments be vaild in the context to our discussion?

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2005, 04:46:04 PM »

ROCOR and ROCA are the same thing.
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« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2005, 05:30:22 PM »

To clear something up on my end, plus with what Truth-or-Bust said.  I did say that the sacraments are not valid.  However I also said that I wasn't sure and that I could have been wrong.  This is just what my understanding was until now.  I have to be honest, i've just heard too much polemical talk against ROCOR, and i've been warned by SOC preists and GOA preists not to take communion at their churches.  I'll have to find out the details.  Just wanted to explain myself.  Thanks for all your help on allowing ME to understand the situaton better. 
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« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2005, 01:06:50 AM »

Here are some other things that I found out from reputable sources. The Serbian Patriarchate and Jerusalem Patriarchate conselebrate with ROCOR, and commemorate their metropolitans, archbishops, etc.  Therefore, being in communion.  HOWEVER, every other Patriarchate, INCLUDING Moscow does NOT commemorate their bishops, NOR conselebrate, therefore being not in communion.  Quite the problem, I know that i'm definately confused by it.  I'll keep you posted if I find out how this works more exactly.  I also asked around about ROCOR vs. ROCA, and I was told that ROCOR is in communion, with SOC and Jerusalem but ROCA has disinfranchized from everyone, and is in communion with nobody. 
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« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2005, 01:31:22 AM »

ROCA is ROCOR.  Are you refering to ROAC?
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« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2005, 07:29:37 AM »

ROCA is ROCOR.ÂÂÂ  Are you refering to ROAC?


Thanks once again to everyone for all of the insights.  Just to reconfirm - I meant ROCA - Russian Orthodoxy Church Abroad.  I see that they seem to be interchangeable which ROCOR as Anastasios has confirmed.  I have checked on ROAC and it seems they claim apostolic procession from Metro Vitaly in some way.  It seems that a few jurisdictions have sprung up from Metro Vitaly claiming to be the True Church in response to ROCOR/ROCA's holding talks of unification with the MP (among other items). 

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2005, 11:29:58 AM »

I did mean ROAC, thank you for the clarification.  I always mess up the acronyms. 
Anastasios, you mentioned that Archbishop Mark of ROCOR read the prayers over Fr. Justin.  Does that place him in communion with his patriarchate?  I'm not exactly sure what you meant by that.  I'm not trying to bring back anything, considering I think we've got a pretty good idea of what the issue is (with ROCOR and cannonical problems, etc.) but I just wanted to ask what you meant by that, instead of jumping to conclusions. 
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« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2005, 12:05:49 PM »

ROCOR and the Serbs have been in communion the whole time officially, many report.  Others claim they were in communion but did not concelebrate.  At any rate, Archbishop Mark was a spiritual son of St Justin Popovich I am told, was with him when it was obvious he was going to die, and hence read the prayers of separation for St Justin, his spiritual father, in his (Arch. Mark's) role as a priest of the Church, with no one questioning whether he (Arch. Mark) had the right to do it, which suggests that they have indeed always been in communion, or at the very least, didn't care enough about the split to not allow this.

Anastasios
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« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2005, 08:35:23 PM »

Thank you for the clarification.  That was definately not what I got out of it, so i'm glad you explained.  I was just afraid that you were aluding to the idea that just by reading the prayers, that put Archbishop Mark in communion with the Serbian Patriarchate.  Obviously, you did not mean that. 
On a slightly different note...
I found out some more details about the ROCOR situation.  ROCOR is an official group of churches under the MP, according to their by-laws (constitution, whatever you call it).  Unfortunately, they have distanced themselves from that church/patriarchate.  If they are not underneath the church that they CAME from, and were originally blessed by, who do they belong to?  Serbian Patriarchate and Jerusalem my be in communion with them (participate in Sacraments, mention them in dyptics, etc), but ROCOR is not underneath their patriarchal blessing.  The dyptics are how we recognize a church to be a part of the Orthodox Church.  When Rome left, they took the Pope out of the dyptics to signify that they had schizmed.  When ROCOR left Russia they did the same thing...eventually.  Only SOC, and Jerusalem put them in the dyptics at all, everyone else leaves them out, INCLUDING the patriarchate they associate themselves with. 
Ultimately, if you are not connected with the patriarchate that allowed your church to form, who are you connected to?  Who is your bishop?  Patriarch?  No patriarch has officially recognized them as an autocephalous church, so who are they under?  Their own archbishop?  Who is under....nobody.  Can he start his own church?  I think not, unless he's a schizmatic, in which case their sacraments are void (couldn't think of a better word).  Are all the Old Calanderist Greek churches in communion?  NO, and they have the SAME situation.  They have their own archbishops, but are underneath NO patriarch. 
Just some thoughts...
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« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2005, 08:13:48 AM »

Thank you for the clarification.ÂÂ  That was definately not what I got out of it, so i'm glad you explained.ÂÂ  I was just afraid that you were aluding to the idea that just by reading the prayers, that put Archbishop Mark in communion with the Serbian Patriarchate.ÂÂ  Obviously, you did not mean that.ÂÂ  
On a slightly different note...
I found out some more details about the ROCOR situation.ÂÂ  ROCOR is an official group of churches under the MP, according to their by-laws (constitution, whatever you call it).ÂÂ  Unfortunately, they have distanced themselves from that church/patriarchate.ÂÂ  If they are not underneath the church that they CAME from, and were originally blessed by, who do they belong to?ÂÂ  Serbian Patriarchate and Jerusalem my be in communion with them (participate in Sacraments, mention them in dyptics, etc), but ROCOR is not underneath their patriarchal blessing.ÂÂ  The dyptics are how we recognize a church to be a part of the Orthodox Church.ÂÂ  When Rome left, they took the Pope out of the dyptics to signify that they had schizmed.ÂÂ  When ROCOR left Russia they did the same thing...eventually.ÂÂ  Only SOC, and Jerusalem put them in the dyptics at all, everyone else leaves them out, INCLUDING the patriarchate they associate themselves with.ÂÂ  
Ultimately, if you are not connected with the patriarchate that allowed your church to form, who are you connected to?ÂÂ  Who is your bishop?ÂÂ  Patriarch?ÂÂ  No patriarch has officially recognized them as an autocephalous church, so who are they under?ÂÂ  Their own archbishop?ÂÂ  Who is under....nobody.ÂÂ  Can he start his own church?ÂÂ  I think not, unless he's a schizmatic, in which case their sacraments are void (couldn't think of a better word).ÂÂ  Are all the Old Calanderist Greek churches in communion?ÂÂ  NO, and they have the SAME situation.ÂÂ  They have their own archbishops, but are underneath NO patriarch.ÂÂ  
Just some thoughts...

Serb, thank you for your research.  I will be interested in learning the response to the items you have presented when addressed by the more established Orthodox who post on this thread.

God Bless you all,
T
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« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2005, 03:50:11 PM »

They will enter into communion with the MP and that is all. Nothing will change on a local level, according to the recent epistle of Met Laurus.  Some like to say this will interfere with the OCA's autocephaly but really, no one envisioned this happening like this so the OCA is going to have to give a little room so that ROCOR can come back into communion with the MP, if that indeed is what the OCA wants.

Anastasios

Well, I don't think anyone can say what will happen.  Metropolitan Laurus of course has his opinion, and other bishops have different views.  I think that everyone is going to have to do some negotiating in order to make this work.  I'm frankly a bit surprised, Anastasios, that you seem to think that only the OCA will have to show flexibility when it comes to this issue. 

Bob
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« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2005, 04:25:28 PM »

Well, I don't think anyone can say what will happen.ÂÂ  Metropolitan Laurus of course has his opinion, and other bishops have different views.ÂÂ  I think that everyone is going to have to do some negotiating in order to make this work.ÂÂ  I'm frankly a bit surprised, Anastasios, that you seem to think that only the OCA will have to show flexibility when it comes to this issue.ÂÂ  

Bob

Ah, but that is not how I feel at all. The poster above suggested that the ROCOR will not be able to be autonomous under the MP because it is against the agreement the MP made with the OCA in 1970, and I am merely pointing out that the OCA will have to back down on that a bit if it wants the ROCOR to be accepted into communion with its mother church.  I think ROCOR is already making great sacrifices to join with the MP, and I wouldn't be surprised if in this spirit it continues its amenable approach and the OCA and ROCOR are able to sit down and talk about how an MP-ROCOR reunion would impact it, and reach an acceptable conclusion.

Sorry to give the wrong impression Smiley

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« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2005, 04:34:57 PM »

Anastasios,

It IS hard to think of ROCOR accepting to become part of the OCA.  I think that even becoming a self-contained unit (like the Romanian diocese) within the OCA would probably be too much. I hope it's not too much for the OCA to accept this, at least for a period of time.   I hope that all concerned can come to an agreement to end this problem.   Smiley

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« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2005, 10:23:03 AM »

Greetings! Please suffer two questions from a very novice Catechuman.  If this situation between OCA - ROCOR - MP is now a "sticky wicket" because of current arrangements worked out with OCA and the MP in the USA, why can't ROCOR just happily continue on as they are now?  If their Sacraments have Grace and their Baptisms are valid then isn't that the most important aspect short of both ROCOR and the OCA both "dropping" their individual jurisdictions and coming fully under the MP?  I am sure I am completely missing something here so I apologize in advance if this perspective is offensive!

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2005, 11:18:14 AM »

I think it comes down to "because the OCA has an accepted church and ROCOR doesn't"  haha.  The issue is, as I see it, that the OCA was granted autocephaly by the MP, and is still technically underneath them.  ROCOR was never given autocephaly, and is also technically underneath the MP.  The issue gets complicated with the fact that ROCOR has disinfranchized themselves from the MP, and is therefore no longer attatched to them, while the OCA is.  Its almost like the cannonical and political triangle of death... Grin  But like you said, the situation is probobly a lot more complicated than that, I like to just focus on the simple problems. 
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« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2005, 11:34:02 AM »

This is one of those things I think you have to read books on to get a further grasp.  If you want to understand the issues, please read some opposing points of view:

1) The Truth about the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, 2nd edition. (Jordanville Press. Very pro-ROCOR and anti-OCA)
2) Towards an American Orthodox Church (Bogolepev, SVS Press, anti-ROCOR).

That should give you an idea of the issues better than we can online.

As to NOW, yes, two Orthodox Churches should be able to move towards unity.  But in the process, the canonical actions and uncanonical actions of both sides have to be addressed and worked out; the two sides can't just pretend everything is ok and move on without fixing some of the old problems that might resurface if glossed over.

Anastasios
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« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2005, 12:11:54 PM »

The issue is, as I see it, that the OCA was granted autocephaly by the MP, and is still technically underneath them.

No, the OCA is not "under" anyone - they're Autocephalous!  When the daughter moves out of the parents house and gets married, the parent doesn't have any right to disolve the marriage and force the daughter to return home. 
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« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2005, 12:29:40 PM »

This is one of those things I think you have to read books on to get a further grasp.ÂÂ  If you want to understand the issues, please read some opposing points of view:

1) The Truth about the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, 2nd edition. (Jordanville Press. Very pro-ROCOR and anti-OCA)
2) Towards an American Orthodox Church (Bogolepev, SVS Press, anti-ROCOR).

That should give you an idea of the issues better than we can online.

As to NOW, yes, two Orthodox Churches should be able to move towards unity.ÂÂ  But in the process, the canonical actions and uncanonical actions of both sides have to be addressed and worked out; the two sides can't just pretend everything is ok and move on without fixing some of the old problems that might resurface if glossed over.

Anastasios

I guess it would be quite a huge step for both ROCOR and the OCA to drop their jurisdictions and completely come under the MP.  Not very realistic! What a statement for unity, though. 

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2005, 12:32:25 PM »

No, the OCA is not "under" anyone - they're Autocephalous! 

"Under" is a relative term, no?  They're "under" Christ, "under" the Tradition, "under" the Canonical Tradition, etc.

When the daughter moves out of the parents house and gets married, the parent doesn't have any right to disolve the marriage and force the daughter to return home.   

Not exactly true in the case of the Church, which is the Mother and can decide what she wishes for the "daughter."  If the rest of the Church thought the OCA should go back under the MP, then despite what the OCA's objections would be, it would be done - or those who opposed would be in schism.
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« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2005, 12:37:10 PM »

"Under" is a relative term, no?ÂÂ  They're "under" Christ, "under" the Tradition, "under" the Canonical Tradition, etc.
Yup - sorry for not being precise.

Not exactly true in the case of the Church, which is the Mother and can decide what she wishes for the "daughter."ÂÂ  If the rest of the Church thought the OCA should go back under the MP, then despite what the OCA's objections would be, it would be done - or those who opposed would be in schism.
Considering that we haven't had an Ecumenical Council for over a Millenium, academic speculation such as this is rather worthless.  Since it seems (from pretty much all sides) that a ROCOR reunion with the MP is pretty much a done deal, speculation here (as to further in the future) is not so worthless.
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« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2005, 12:45:25 PM »

Considering that we haven't had an Ecumenical Council for over a Millenium, academic speculation such as this is rather worthless. 

Well, while it's true that there hasn't been an Ecumenical Synod for over 1000 years, the Church has found ways in the intervening time to make decisions as a body - the Endemousa Synod for example (a regularly meeting body including the 4 Eastern Patriarchs that made decisions during the period between the latter days of the Empire and the last 2 centuries).  Or, for example, the last meeting of all the sees at the Ecumenical Patriarchate - whether one agrees with the decision rendered or not, it was a meeting of the various sees - either by direct representation of the chief hierarch, or their designated representative - to decide a course of action on an issue pressing the Church.  So the debate over whether or not a jurisdiction could be forced back under the one from whence it came is not totally academic - but the fact that this kind of maneuver hasn't been done in quite a while does render the question pretty much so.

Since it seems (from pretty much all sides) that a ROCOR reunion with the MP is pretty much a done deal, speculation here (as to further in the future) is not so worthless.     

Is it really a done deal?  The one article I read (and I can't remember the site, so I can't research the credibility at the moment) stated that the MP was looking for ROCOR to become a body within the Patriarchate again, not just another church "in communion."  Now, the article didn't speculate or provide information as to whether this would be as an Autonomous, semi-autonomous, or otherwise body.  But it made it sound like there is still the sticky point of ecclesiological relationship between the two - while the idea of being in communion with one another does sound like a done deal, this other part doesn't.
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« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2005, 12:51:50 PM »

Truth or Bust,

Would Moscow want the OCA back? Why would it have given it away if it wanted it back later?

I think the best unity will be the OCA continues as is and the ROCOR is allowed to be an autonomous unit of the MP, and the OCA and ROCOR establish a joint commission to work out probelms that have occurred over history. A timetable is set that in x number of years (25, 50...) the ROCOR and OCA will be administratively united.

Anastasios
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« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2005, 01:00:26 PM »

I think the best unity will be the OCA continues as is and the ROCOR is allowed to be an autonomous unit of the MP, and the OCA and ROCOR establish a joint commission to work out probelms that have occurred over history. A timetable is set that in x number of years (25, 50...) the ROCOR and OCA will be administratively united.

While I agree with the above, I've never seen some sort of timetable mentioned.  Got a source?
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« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2005, 01:35:29 PM »

While I agree with the above, I've never seen some sort of timetable mentioned.ÂÂ  Got a source?

No, I am saying that I think that is how it should be, not that I know that that is how it will be Smiley

A.
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« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2005, 02:06:17 PM »

I think the best unity will be the OCA continues as is and the ROCOR is allowed to be an autonomous unit of the MP, and the OCA and ROCOR establish a joint commission to work out probelms that have occurred over history. A timetable is set that in x number of years (25, 50...) the ROCOR and OCA will be administratively united.   

I think that this is the real ultimate purpose of SCOBA - to  work out the short-term issues and set the table for administrative unity.  Uniting the various ministries under the umbrella, and doing a comprehensive survey/plan as to how the nation would be divided (dioceses and metropolises and archdioceses), the body can then prove to the "old world" that it can be a fully integrated Orthodox Church that can be of assistance to the local community in a united front, and to the Old World in their fights to keep the fire of the faith burning in lands that are as under attack as ever.
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« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2005, 02:35:27 PM »

re: the OCA and Autocephaly

Who honestly in both word and action sees the OCA as an autocephalous church?

the EP? - certainly not!

Alexandria? - have stated that the diaspora is the jurisdiction of the EP

Antioch? - certainly haven't in the past, but seem to be working American unity based upon the OCA as the center

Jerusalem? Has parishes in America with no intention of joining the OCA

Serbia? - has its own Church here

Bulgaria, Romania - while some in America are incorperated into the OCA each church has Patriarchial parishes in America as well

Moscow?  well there sure are a lot of parishes under the direct jurisdiction of the MP to really think that Moscow sees the OCA as THE American Church

So that leaves such illustrious churches as Poland and the Church in the Czech lands as believing in OCA autocephaly and NOT setting up altar against altar in OCA territory. 
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« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2005, 03:25:09 PM »

Silouan,

If you want to launch a discussion as to the merits of the granting of autocephaly to the OCA, there are more nuanced ways to do it.  IMHO. your approach here comes across as really unnecessarily lacking in charity and seems to have a quite polemical tone.  Everyone knows that the situation in North America is messy because of historical developments and unfortunate (or even tragic) political infighting.  It's going to take a lot of prayer and give and take on all sides before canonical unity is achieved.  Forgive me, but I don't see how your approach here can be viewed as being constructive. 

Bob
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« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2005, 03:42:48 PM »

Quote
Forgive me, but I just don't see how your approach here can be viewed as being constructive.

It is constructive in the sense that being pragmatic is the sine qua non of actual construction.    The ROCOR discussions with the MP are bearing fruit because both sides have been frank in bringing forth what they percieve as impediments to unity.  Until people within the OCA are willing to take a serious look at their sacred cow of Autocephaly nothing will be accomplished towards unity in America.  It is quite relevant that only two autocephalous churches recognize the OCA as autocephalous - but it is also worth noting that the two churches in question also had their autocephaly disputed in their day...

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« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2005, 05:19:23 PM »

Truth or Bust,

Would Moscow want the OCA back? Why would it have given it away if it wanted it back later?

I think the best unity will be the OCA continues as is and the ROCOR is allowed to be an autonomous unit of the MP, and the OCA and ROCOR establish a joint commission to work out probelms that have occurred over history. A timetable is set that in x number of years (25, 50...) the ROCOR and OCA will be administratively united.

Anastasios

Good questions Anastasios.  Also, I did not realize some of the finer points in this ROCOR - MP unfication.  I ran into a deep thread on this item here:
http://euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5459&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=27

It seems that many ROCOR people fear a land grab might happen. 

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2005, 05:25:33 PM »

The Euphrosynoscafe is essentially an insane asylum and most of the more vitrolic people opposed to the union on there are not even members of ROCOR, but are schismatics.  Nothing on that site is worth taking seriously. 

There are definetly some in ROCOR opposed to re-establishment of communion with Moscow at this point in time, but they are not going around slandering our bishops with fanciful tales and outright lies. 
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« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2005, 09:47:55 PM »

The Euphrosynoscafe is essentially an insane asylum and most of the more vitrolic people opposed to the union on there are not even members of ROCOR, but are schismatics.ÂÂ  Nothing on that site is worth taking seriously.ÂÂ  

There are definetly some in ROCOR opposed to re-establishment of communion with Moscow at this point in time, but they are not going around slandering our bishops with fanciful tales and outright lies.ÂÂ  

Thanks for the heads up as well as your thoughtful posts on this thread.  The information put forth on this topic was exactly what I was seeking.

By best to you all.

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2005, 01:31:04 PM »

T or B,

Even though you seem to have gotten what you were looking for, here is a link I found that explains things rather well.

http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/ROCOR_and_OCA
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« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2005, 08:23:59 PM »

T or B,

Even though you seem to have gotten what you were looking for, here is a link I found that explains things rather well.

http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/ROCOR_and_OCA

Thanks for the link.  The article seems very well-researched.  What a muddy mess!  At least the last paragraph on 2001-present provides hope.
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« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2005, 09:53:00 PM »

T or B,

Even though you seem to have gotten what you were looking for, here is a link I found that explains things rather well.

http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/ROCOR_and_OCA

Thanks! I will read it strait away.

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #72 on: December 21, 2005, 02:32:38 PM »

re: the OCA and Autocephaly

Who honestly in both word and action sees the OCA as an autocephalous church?


Are you not confusing seeing the OCA as "autocephalous" with it being the sole inheritor of canonical responsibility of North America?  Certainly the EP hasn't recognized the MP's granting of autocephaly to the OCA, but that is largely irrelevant here in the US. I think there is a formidable movement among the Antiochian Church in the USA and the OCA toward unity, hoping that the Greeks come along. I doubt the latter will happen in the near future, but I think we could see an Antiochian/OCA union in the "near" future ("near" being a relative term), which would be a large step forward in developing a genuinely American Orthodox Church and would catapult them to the "high ground" on union front.

Regarding ROCOR, I'm personally looking forward to "normalization" between them and other jurisdictions, particularly OCA. It will be a strain because a lot of harsh stuff has been said on both sides, but I think it would be good for all.

In Christ,

J-D
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« Reply #73 on: December 21, 2005, 04:54:48 PM »

Are you not confusing seeing the OCA as "autocephalous" with it being the sole inheritor of canonical responsibility of North America?     

Could you please clarify what you're trying to get across here?

I think there is a formidable movement among the Antiochian Church in the USA and the OCA toward unity, hoping that the Greeks come along. I doubt the latter will happen in the near future, but I think we could see an Antiochian/OCA union in the "near" future ("near" being a relative term), which would be a large step forward in developing a genuinely American Orthodox Church and would catapult them to the "high ground" on union front.

I hope there is a movement... and there is a movement in the GOA for unification with the others.  But stumbling blocks abound:

1. Many of those in the GOA who are advocating unification in the near future also have a skewed ecclesiology and  tend to hold a near-congregational view of the Church.  I find this probably the most disturbing point of the movement.  And organizations such as OCL which promote the unity also tend to promote the most liberal ideas and movements within the Church - and it seems they do so without being as dsicerning as they claim to be.

2. The Antiochian Archdiocese can't join the OCA without either the approval of Damascus or creating schism (which won't help the OCA's case for recognition abroad).

3. It doesn't seem to me that the two sides are working out hte logistics of such a move - which means that while the Laity is calling for the unification, the Clergy and administrators aren't moving towards it seriously enough (yet).
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« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2005, 12:43:13 PM »

Could you please clarify what you're trying to get across here?

Well, it seems that you equating a recognition of autocephaly with a concomitant recognition that the OCA is the only leigitimate, canonical Church in America. As for practical matters, we have Greek priests concelebrate every now and then at our parish, as well as priests from other jurisdictions so there certainly seems to be a practical recognition of the OCA as a "legitimate" Orthodox body.

Quote
I hope there is a movement... and there is a movement in the GOA for unification with the others.  But stumbling blocks abound:

1. Many of those in the GOA who are advocating unification in the near future also have a skewed ecclesiology and  tend to hold a near-congregational view of the Church.  I find this probably the most disturbing point of the movement.  And organizations such as OCL which promote the unity also tend to promote the most liberal ideas and movements within the Church - and it seems they do so without being as dsicerning as they claim to be.

Yes, I agree. This is bothersome to me as well. These seem to be the same people who disparage monastic "influence" on the Church and hate to see "old world" monasticism established here.

Quote
2. The Antiochian Archdiocese can't join the OCA without either the approval of Damascus or creating schism (which won't help the OCA's case for recognition abroad).

Or it might. My understanding is the Metr. Philip is pretty intent on getting something done, with or without the blessing of Damascus. The bigger and more unified an American Church becomes, the more preasure on other patriarchates to recognize it. I think the Russian MP certainly would. The current EP will never, so it's pretty much pointless to wait on that.

Quote
3. It doesn't seem to me that the two sides are working out hte logistics of such a move - which means that while the Laity is calling for the unification, the Clergy and administrators aren't moving towards it seriously enough (yet).

Again, my understanding is that Met. Philip is strongly pushing. Given the sensitive nature of the subject and the outside political considerdations, I doubt we'd hear much about actual efforts until it's about to be announced.

In Christ,

J-D
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« Reply #75 on: December 23, 2005, 02:34:08 AM »

All the best to you, Truth or Bust  Smiley
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« Reply #76 on: December 23, 2005, 02:35:30 AM »

Again, my understanding is that Met. Philip is strongly pushing. Given the sensitive nature of the subject and the outside political considerdations, I doubt we'd hear much about actual efforts until it's about to be announced.

Really?  Wow.  I thought that things had really cooled off between Antioch and the OCA lately.  Though I have noticed people trying to get friendly again over the last few months, it's true. 
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« Reply #77 on: December 23, 2005, 02:56:33 AM »

Again, my understanding is that Met. Philip is strongly pushing. Given the sensitive nature of the subject and the outside political considerdations, I doubt we'd hear much about actual efforts until it's about to be announced.

That's not what I've heard from reliable sources, my understanding is that such a union will never happen under Philip, even with the blessing of Antioch, at least not unless the Greek Archdiocese is in on it as well; but, of course, he probably won't be Metropolitan too much longer, though even after his retirement I dont see a union between the Russians and Antiochians in the near future. Furthermore, I can tell you that the recently revealed financial scandal in the OCA didn't make such a move any more likely. The bottom line is that while such a union would be benificial to the OCA, it would be damaging to the Antiochians in this country who only stand to inherit financial problems and loose recognition from the Orthodox Churches, it is most probable that all four Ancient Patriarchates would excommunicate the Antiochians in this Country if they tried to pull such a stunt.
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« Reply #78 on: December 23, 2005, 04:42:55 AM »

...between the Russians and Antiochians in the near future.
Yeah, the "Russians".  When my dad says this, I ask him if I should refer to him as the "Arabs" (his church since he goes to an Antiochian parish - the one I grew up in and we converted).

Even though I am most likely to refer to the GOA or those in it as "the Greeks", I try to clarify or avoid it depending on context.  Even though it may be most accurate proportionally, it still isn't a good thing necessarily.


Furthermore, I can tell you that the recently revealed financial scandal in the OCA didn't make such a move any more likely.
Not exactly the brightest hour of the Synod or Metropolitanate.
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« Reply #79 on: December 23, 2005, 06:22:48 AM »

I find the Indian Orthodox Church to be very proper, especially since it lacks much of the internal politics of other churches:

www.indianorthodoxchurch.org

On the other hand, these politics sadly do exist in India while not in the United States.

Peace.
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« Reply #80 on: December 23, 2005, 12:36:21 PM »


Indian Orthodox Church is Orthodox in name, but not Orthodox. Plus the American version has Vagante elements - Archbishop Fred and Co.
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« Reply #81 on: December 23, 2005, 01:25:48 PM »

I find the Indian Orthodox Church to be very proper, especially since it lacks much of the internal politics of other churches:   

Huh?  So the lack of politics is your mind makes this jurisdiction "very proper?"  There were "church politics" involved even in New Testament times!  I know we'd like to see churches w/o politics, but I don't think they'd be true, only because the True Church will be attacked constantly from without and within.
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« Reply #82 on: December 23, 2005, 07:55:56 PM »

All the best to you, Truth or Bust  Smiley

Thanks! I will need all of the well wishing I can get in this new way of life I have chosen.

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #83 on: December 23, 2005, 10:11:11 PM »

Indian Orthodox Church is Orthodox in name, but not Orthodox.

You are free to have such an uninformed, misguided opinion. But please do not lead potential converts to the Orthodox faith into such untruth.

Peace.
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« Reply #84 on: December 24, 2005, 12:44:01 AM »

You are free to have such an uninformed, misguided opinion. But please do not lead potential converts to the Orthodox faith into such untruth.

The inquirer is looking for the ideal jurisdiction within Eastern Orthodoxy. It makes sense then for people here to point him away from non-EO assemblies such as the Oriental Orthodox.
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« Reply #85 on: December 24, 2005, 12:53:34 AM »

Since we have EO and OO posters here and both sides are represented here, might i suggest that if someone posts in the OO section that they are thinking of joining the OO Church, EO not try to nab them, and vice versa? Of course many of us are not sycretistic but outright baiting like that isn't very effective anyway. Now if someone comes asking questions as to which body to join, i fully expect a rumble and spirited debate.

Just my suggestion; nothing official.

A.
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« Reply #86 on: December 24, 2005, 04:44:47 AM »

The inquirer is looking for the ideal jurisdiction within Eastern Orthodoxy.

I am merely pointing out that Orthodoxy isn't limited to the Byzantine Church. The OP does not specify that we are only discussing Eastern Orthodoxy.

peace.
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« Reply #87 on: December 24, 2005, 10:26:27 AM »

I am merely pointing out that Orthodoxy isn't limited to the Byzantine Church. The OP does not specify that we are only discussing Eastern Orthodoxy.

peace.

Isn't Orthodox Jurisdictions somewhat set up to accommodate various ethnic heritages? Its natural.  I went to the Indian Orthodox link and followed another to an OO parish in the town I am visiting for the holidays.  My first impression was one of joy when I saw the ethnic Indians gathered around in worship of Christ!  If the gospel is to be preached to every living creature it stands to reason that we will find many jurisdictions to accommodate many peoples.

Glory be to Christ for the Indian Church! 

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #88 on: December 24, 2005, 11:00:19 AM »

Indian Orthodox Church is Orthodox in name, but not Orthodox.

Speak for your own Church, don't presume to speak for mine. 

Quote
Plus the American version has Vagante elements - Archbishop Fred and Co.

The American version of Eastern Orthodoxy has vagante elements like Bishop George Michael and the Most. Rev. Marilyn L. Sieg:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/5793/
http://www.ohioocc.org/our_presiding_bishop.htm

And? 

I understand the concern not to try and steer away someone already interested in EOxy, and specifically ROCOR, by recommending an Orthodox (Oriental) Church, and I agree with you, and against Matthew777.  But how you chose to combat him was immature, and unlike other members of your Church.

Anyway, our Church is certainly not without politics, in India or here.  Matthew777 lives far away in the land of blissful ignorance...simultaneously a blessing and a curse.         
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« Reply #89 on: December 24, 2005, 03:29:56 PM »

I offend - mea culpa.   But Orthodox is Orthodox not Byzantine Catholic Orthodox or Monophysites.  Yeah i know you have friends - i have friends too who are Jewish. If the latter posted a loaded or moronic statement on this board, i would take them to task.  Stop this syncretic pussy-footing and move that OO trouble-maker to the OO folder where he belongs.  I quote from your OO policy:
If a thread is started with what we determine to be a loaded question, we reserve the right to delete it.

Choosing a proper Jurisdiction means proper Jurisdiction in the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. 
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« Reply #90 on: December 24, 2005, 05:31:09 PM »

I'm sorry, are OO's only allowed to post in the OO forum?  If so, somebody please tell me, since that would also make me a trouble maker. (Yeah, I'm bad.   Cool)  If we are restricted to posting in the OO folder, I'd like to know.

Also, Matthew's original post on this thread was neither a question, nor loaded.  He was merely offering a church for Truth or Bust to consider, like everyone else was doing.  I have looked at Truth or Bust's postings on this thread and I can't see where he said his search is only limited to EO churches.  One may have made that assumption since that is what he has considered so far, but his last post showed he did not mind being told of the Indian Orthodox Church.  In any event, it was up to him, not others, to accept or reject Matthew's offer.  There was nothing in Matthew's original post which indicated he was trying to open up a polemical discussion or even to "sheep steal" and the reaction he received was inappropriate.

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« Reply #91 on: December 24, 2005, 06:45:38 PM »

It would be nice if people could extol their Churches and faith without needing to slam the others.  If one feels like participating in polemical discussions between the EO-OO - using logic, fact, research, etc - then they should PM Robert and ask to be part of the private discussion board:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=7834.0

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« Reply #92 on: December 25, 2005, 07:03:14 AM »

Glory be to Christ for the Indian Church!ÂÂ  

Thank you. I hope that you come again in the future.  Cool

Peace.
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« Reply #93 on: December 25, 2005, 07:06:54 AM »

Matthew777 lives far away in the land of blissful ignorance..simultaneously a blessing and a curse.  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚Â

Blissful ignorance? St. Gregorios is a very happy place and that is a reality.ÂÂ  Cool
My recommendation of the Malankara Church is, of course, based upon personal experience as a Catholic convert to the Orthodox faith. Quite honestly, I should have become a member much sooner in my life.

Peace.
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« Reply #94 on: December 25, 2005, 07:09:20 AM »

In any event, it was up to him, not others, to accept or reject Matthew's offer.ÂÂ  

Exactly. If one's mind hasn't been influenced by the straw man of Oriental Orthodoxy being unorthodox or heretical, it most certainly should be considered a live option.
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« Reply #95 on: December 25, 2005, 12:51:00 PM »

It's probably best that potential converts see the bickering and name-calling now... that way when they convert and see it later on they'll have no excuse for leavingÂÂ  GrinÂÂ  
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« Reply #96 on: December 25, 2005, 04:06:11 PM »

It's probably best that potential converts see the bickering and name-calling now... that way when they convert and see it later on they'll have no excuse for leaving  Grin 

I am quite happy with my ROCOR parish.  I look at all of the various ethnic Jurisdictions and think to myself that Orthodoxy is doing its job in preaching the Gospel to everybody on earth.   I think it is a good thing!

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #97 on: December 26, 2005, 01:40:00 PM »

It's probably best that potential converts see the bickering and name-calling now... that way when they convert and see it later on they'll have no excuse for leavingÂÂ  GrinÂÂ  

Reminds me of what and Orthodox Bishop told His Grace Bishop Kallistos Ware back when he was considering converting to Orthodoxy, that the Orthodox Church may be the foundation of all Truth and the only Church established by our Lord, but that under no circumstances should he ever consider joining it.  Cheesy
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« Reply #98 on: December 27, 2005, 12:19:29 AM »

I am quite happy with my ROCOR parish.ÂÂ  

That is quite good. Russian Orthodoxy has a strong and rich tradition that has been revived since the fall of communism.
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« Reply #99 on: January 13, 2006, 02:39:03 PM »

Just thought I'd update this topic with some information I received from my Priest.  I was able to spend some time with him over the Nativity events and we had a discussion on ROCOR and the MP.  He told me the latest position just in is that Met LAURUS will not join with the MP if it means schism within ROCOR.
There have been a lot of complaints and evidently it seems there would be a sizable exodus of both Priests and laity if this were to occur.

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #100 on: January 13, 2006, 03:20:51 PM »

Wow...I gotta reply to this...

re: the OCA and Autocephaly

Who honestly in both word and action sees the OCA as an autocephalous church?

I do!ÂÂ  I'm a reader in said church, and I consider it to be completely and totally autocephalous.ÂÂ  What does that mean?ÂÂ  It means it is self-governing, allowed by its (former) mother church to elect its own metropolitan/bishops.ÂÂ  That's it.ÂÂ  It no longer has to answer to Moscow for anything.

Now, is it the "sole jurisdiction" in America?ÂÂ  No, and it does not claim that it would even try to be such if and when a jurisdictional union of SCOBA jurisdictions happens.ÂÂ  The fact that there are patriarchates who do not recognize the OCA as the sole heir apparant to American Orthodoxy (something we ourselves don't claim!) just means that there's a jurisdictional dispute (which began when Moscow came over to Alaska, which the EP obviously thought they had no right to do in the first place); it does NOT mean that the OCA is not self-governing, which is the sole definition of "autocephalous."

Whether Moscow should have done what they did is a moot point now; what is apparant now is this: the OCA was canonically granted autocephaly by her mother Church (who had every right to do such) and now exists as a self-governing body that will not go away, even though she overlaps and is overlapped by several other jurisdictions here, themselves in varying degrees of autonomy/autocephaly from their own mother Churches.ÂÂ  The main issue for us here is this: given that we are facing a situation in Britain/the US that is completely unprecedented (afaik--I could be wrong), we must now strive for a single, unified, American jurisdiction, and this can only be done when the archdioceses (sp?) are granted self-governance by their mother churches and themselves elect to merge jurisdictions.ÂÂ  That last part is most likely a pipe dream for now, with the EP not about to grant the GOAA any kind of autonomy, istm, and with the abovementioned scandal (along with other things) being obstacles to jurisdictional unity (which, btw, is not to be confused with ethnic homogeny).

None of this, however, stops the OCA from being the self-governing Church that she most certainly is.
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« Reply #101 on: January 13, 2006, 03:49:19 PM »

I don't think that "this can only be done when the archdioceses (sp?) are granted self-governance by their mother churches and themelves elect to merge jurisdictions."  There have been movements behind the scenes over the last 30 years to have the jurisdictions merged either as autocephalous or as a "daughter church," with varying parties at fault for the failure of the plans.

I think I've said it before, but it bears repeating: as we are now, under SCOBA, we can unite all of our various ministries except the hierarchical structure - so we should.  As we have done with our missions, charities, OCF and more, we should move towards uniting the various ministries of the different archdioceses under the SCOBA umbrella - youth, young adult, prison ministry, and even some administrative functions - pensions, health benefits, clergy assignment, seminary curriculum.  Once we have done all this, then the only thing that will be non-unified is the hierarchical structure, which will be easier to unite then, since the jurisdictions by then will be virtually united.

In that time, while the ministries are being united, a group of clergy and laity can be working hard on proposing a redistricting of the parishes in the case of jurisdictional unity, since there will need to be new dioceses, metropolises, and archdioceses formed, and the existing bishops will need to be shuffled to fill the new dioceses (by my calculations, we will actually need 3-4 more bishops to fill the openings).  This way, we can provide to the various "mother churches" an actual, well-documented and thought-out plan for unity, instead of the pipe dream.

{/rant}
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« Reply #102 on: January 13, 2006, 06:43:10 PM »

ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia?) All these different names and titles for Orthodox churches! My Church is the Russian Orthodox church in exile. Can someone tell me if this is the same as ROCOR? Also, what's wrong with ROCOR?! I understand that at some point the Russians had a little disagreement as some made a kind of agreement with the communists in charge, and some didn't want anything to do with communists, but I thought that was all over now?!
I was surprised to hear that any Russian Orthodox was denied communion in a Greek church, in my experience, the Greek Church is usually the most accepting and least strict of all Orthodox churches.
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« Reply #103 on: January 13, 2006, 07:25:07 PM »

ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia?) All these different names and titles for Orthodox churches! My Church is the Russian Orthodox church in exile. Can someone tell me if this is the same as ROCOR? Also, what's wrong with ROCOR?! I understand that at some point the Russians had a little disagreement as some made a kind of agreement with the communists in charge, and some didn't want anything to do with communists, but I thought that was all over now?!
I was surprised to hear that any Russian Orthodox was denied communion in a Greek church, in my experience, the Greek Church is usually the most accepting and least strict of all Orthodox churches.

The Russian Church in Exile and ROCOR are one and the same.

Some say that ROCOR merely has an administrative problem with other Orthodox Churches.  There are those who claim that there is more at work than this, that there are issues of canonicity.  It sometimes looks kind of murky.  Personally, I would never say that ROCOR people are not Orthodox people.  Unless of course they act and believe like they are not, but then one would say that of anyone claiming to be Orthodox who wasn't as far as their beliefs and actions were concerned. 

It's kind of a weird situation, anyway.  ROCOR is in full communion with the Serbian Church, as well as the Jerusalem Patriarchate, as far as I know.  So why can't ROCOR people commune in other Churches sometimes?  Well, ROCOR itself refuses to give communion to others who are  in communion with those they term "Sergianist": those who are in communion with Moscow, which they claim has given in to communism and is therefore not really the true Russian Church in one sense.  I'm sure that there are others here who can explain the situation much better than I.   It's all a bit too "traditionalist" for me, but there are others who disagree.  And there's much more to the story than this, unfortunately.  A very complex tale indeed.  I think we should all pray that ROCOR and the MP resolve their differences soon.

James Bob
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« Reply #104 on: January 14, 2006, 12:09:29 AM »

I joined this forum because the title read: Your home on the internet for Orthodox Christianity.  when someone asks about jurisdictions they mean Orthodox not non-Orthodox.  As for recommending the Indian Church - this is not Orthodox, simple, period.  That fringe people want to call themselves Orthodox is their affair - but Orthodox they aint.
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« Reply #105 on: January 14, 2006, 02:16:30 AM »

Quote
None of this, however, stops the OCA from being the self-governing Church that she most certainly is.

Which really wasn't what I had addressed in my post.  The Pan-Orthodox world does NOT view the OCA as an autocephalous Church.  The number of parishes still part of the Moscow Patriarchate in this country shows how Moscow views the OCA...

As for the matter of actually being self governing - my synod has governed itself for many years now.... but that makes us neither autonomous nor autocephalous. 
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« Reply #106 on: January 14, 2006, 08:46:56 AM »

Which really wasn't what I had addressed in my post.  The Pan-Orthodox world does NOT view the OCA as an autocephalous Church.  The number of parishes still part of the Moscow Patriarchate in this country shows how Moscow views the OCA...

You're attempting to equate what's going on now--with our "free for all" style of jurisdictional overlapping norm--with the clear-cut, right-off-the-bat establishment of a sole jurisdiction in a new area.  It would have been nice if this had happened--the Russians coming over and establishing "first contact" and letting that be that--but the EP disputed this, and so now we have the current mess, with each laying claim to America and everyone else jumping on the bandwagon and establishing their own jurisdiction as well.  I just don't think the two are comparable.  Again, autocephalous in this case =/= sole rights to the territory.  It just means "stepped away from the mother Church and governs itself so as to be able to act with other autonomous/autocephalous archdioceses (what is the plural of archdiocese?!) and form one jurisdictional structure."  That's our situation, and it's unique.  The fact that the MP still has parishes as representatives of his here in the US doesn't mean they're renegging on their proclamation that we are totally independent of them.

Quote
As for the matter of actually being self governing - my synod has governed itself for many years now.... but that makes us neither autonomous nor autocephalous.

The GOAA can elect its own metropolitan/episcopate without any input or approval of the EP or Greece?  Huh.  If that's true, I didn't realize you were autocephalous, I'm sorry...
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« Reply #107 on: January 14, 2006, 10:36:06 AM »

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America has an Eparchial Synod which, by def (I'm pretty sure of this, but GiC is better equipped to answer) cannot elect its own members - the Patriarchal Synod elects all hierarchs for our Archdiocese, following a clear set of existing prerequisites that have been set forth (minimum # of years serving in America, etc.).
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« Reply #108 on: January 14, 2006, 10:44:07 AM »

Quote
The GOAA can elect its own metropolitan/episcopate without any input or approval of the EP or Greece?  Huh.  If that's true, I didn't realize you were autocephalous, I'm sorry...

While I do have some ties to some monasteries under the EP I am a member of the ROCOR. ÂÂ
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« Reply #109 on: January 14, 2006, 11:13:18 AM »

ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia?) All these different names and titles for Orthodox churches! My Church is the Russian Orthodox church in exile. Can someone tell me if this is the same as ROCOR?

Yes and no.

The Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia and the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad are one and the same jurisdiction.  Their website is here.

ROCOR/ROCA used to call itself the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile.  However, it no longer uses this name.

That name has now been adopted by a group that has broken away from ROCOR because of the developing relationship with the Moscpw Patriarchate.  This breakaway group has a website here and there is an article about them here.  To my knowledge, they have no presence in Britain.

Speaking of which, this problem about the relationship between OCA and ROCA should ROCA be granted autocephaly by the MP is purely an American issue, as is this business of being in or out of SCOBA.  For those of us on this side of the pond, if ROCA is granted autocephaly by the MP, then the only two Russian jurisdictions that will be here will be the MP and ROCA.  In Britain, we have ROCA, an Antiochian Deanery, a Greek Diocese under the EP, and a diocese of the MP.  We have no autocephalous church in Britain, so there is no question of who is treading on whose toes as there is in America.  The issue that needs to be sorted out here is simply one of mutual recognition and a remedying of the canonical mess that exists with regard to jurisdictional overlap.  What we ideally need is an autocephalous Orthodox Church of Britain, with a bishop with his see specifically in britain (perhaps we could restore one of the long-vacant ancient Orthodox bishoprics of Richmond or Beverley, which existed before the schism).

So if ROCA is granted autocephaly, the then situation in Britain will be that:
  • EP, Antioch and MP will all be in full communion with each other.
  • MP and ROCA will be in full communion with each other.
  • ROCA will be in impaired communion (laity may receive the sacraments but clergy may not concelebrate*) with the EP and Antioch.


From the MP perspective:

They'll be in full communion with all other Orthodox jurisdictions in Britain.

From the Antiochian perspective:

They'll be in full communion with the EP and the MP and in a state of impaired communion* with ROCA.

The impediment to ROCA being fully recognised by Antioch is that ROCA is currently in a questionable state of canonicity.  This will be remedied when it submits to the MP.  There is a possibility that Antioch's position with regard to ROCA may be reviewed at some point in the future.

From the EP perspective:

They'll be in full communion with the MP and Antioch, and in a state of impaired communion* with ROCA.

Their issue with ROCA is that they are unlikely to recognise any autocephalous church in Britain not granted autocephaly by the EP.

From the ROCA perspective:

They'll be in full communion with the MP.

They'll be in a state of impaired communion* with the EP and Antioch because of the Calendar and perceived ecumenism.

So those are the issues that will need to be worked through, but most of them are not insurmountable, perhaps especially the Calendar question.  It seems odd to me that ROCA objects to full communion with Antioch because it is on the New Calendar, when it is happy to be in comunion with the MP, which also permits use of the New Calendar.  It seems to me, in my uninformed state, that if it isn't a big problem to be in communion with one New Calendar jurisdiction, then it shouldn't be too much of an obstacle to overcome to be in communion with another.

I pray for the day when we have a truly Orthodox autocephalous church in the British Isles.  We have many Saints from these isles who are largely forgotten in the wider Orthodox world - too many to make their efforts in vain.
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« Reply #110 on: January 14, 2006, 12:21:00 PM »

I joined this forum because the title read: Your home on the internet for Orthodox Christianity.  when someone asks about jurisdictions they mean Orthodox not non-Orthodox.  As for recommending the Indian Church - this is not Orthodox, simple, period.  That fringe people want to call themselves Orthodox is their affair - but Orthodox they aint.

I think it's funny that it's been almost three weeks now since that tangent has died (and I did address it at the time), and you want to resurrect it.  It's not even like the topic was bumped up with information about the Indian Church, either: it started basically with T talking about his discussion with his ROCOR priest, and this developed into a discussion about the American EO jurisdictional problems.  I am unable to see the connection, except if you want to merely make polemical shots.  If you want to play that game, ask Robert to let you in to the special unmoderated forum, and we can talk about your Vladyka Marilyn ( Wink ).   

You read the forum title correctly.  However, from the beginning, this site has always been welcoming both to Eastern and Oriental Orthodox.  We don't require that EO believe that OO are Orthodox (if we did, I would probably have banned you by now), and we don't require Oriental Orthodox to believe that Byzantines are Orthodox.  What we require is that everyone be respectful of others, even when disagreeing with them.  If the Indian Church came up in discussion again, and you wanted to say they were not Orthodox, you could, but you'd have to substantiate that claim (e.g., "they reject the council of Chalcedon, therefore they are not Orthodox") so that it wouldn't look like you were simply taking a cheap shot.  Of course, this would get heated, and we'd have to cut that discussion and transfer it to another section, but it could be done that way.  In fact, if you search the archives, you will see a good number of threads which were exactly like that, and we didn't take action on anyone except when they clearly violated forum rules.  Among the various members of our moderating team, you will find multiple views, on this and other issues; we are not interested in silencing anyone's point of view.  But it ought to be expressed in a particular way.

I'm inclined to wonder whether you know of which group Matthew777 was talking about because you seem to think it's a fringe group, with Archbishops named Fred, etc.  He was originally talking about the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, an autocephalous Oriental Orthodox Church (note to the Indians: I DO NOT want this issue debated in this thread).  Whatever your feelings about its doctrinal orthodoxy, one thing you cannot call it is a fringe group.  Not in communion with you, sure.  But that doesn't make it a fringe group like those of Abp. Fred or Vladyka Marilyn.  If you would like more information about this Church (I'm not trying to convert you, but I think you may be misinformed), contact me privately.  But if you insist you know what you're talking about, then I'd want to see you define fringe.  Again, contact me privately, I don't want to take over this topic. 

Finally, I am letting your comments stand as they are, with a warning.  If you do this again (resurrect controversial tangents which have died or insert polemical shots out of context "just because"), it will be dealt with.  I want to thank the other posters for disregarding this latest turn, and I hope we can keep it dead.  It doesn't belong here.             
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« Reply #111 on: January 14, 2006, 02:05:26 PM »

Yes and no.

The Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia and the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad are one and the same jurisdiction.  Their website is here.

ROCOR/ROCA used to call itself the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile.  However, it no longer uses this name.

That name has now been adopted by a group that has broken away from ROCOR because of the developing relationship with the Moscpw Patriarchate.  This breakaway group has a website here and there is an article about them here.  To my knowledge, they have no presence in Britain.



Thank you for this, that clarifes things for me!

I am inclined to agree that the differences do seem to patchable upable!! Lets hope.
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« Reply #112 on: January 14, 2006, 02:08:28 PM »


Thank you for this, that clarifes things for me!

I am inclined to agree that the differences do seem to patchable upable!! Lets hope.

Yes, let's hope, and pray, that the differences get resolved and that full communion gets restored.
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« Reply #113 on: January 15, 2006, 03:38:50 AM »

[Speaking of which, this problem about the relationship between OCA and ROCA should ROCA be granted autocephaly by the MP is purely an American issue, as is this business of being in or out of SCOBA.  For those of us on this side of the pond, if ROCA is granted autocephaly by the MP, then the only two Russian jurisdictions that will be here will be the MP and ROCA. ]

Chances of ROCA as an entity being granted autocephally are slim to none.  ROCA has churches throughout the world.  Autocephallous Churches are created by a territorial identity.  So what would you call this new ROCA Autocephalous Church?  The Russian Orthodox Church Outside the Borders of Russia?   If it's outside the borders of Russia, it is no longer the 'Russian Orthodox Church'.  Not only will it create problems here in America where there already is an autocephalous Church created by the MP, which in itself would restrict the MP from creating another autocephalous Church within the same terriitory.  The canons forbid it.  It would also create problems in western Europe, as will as other continents throughout the world where there are ROCA & other Othodox jurisdictions. 

It's time we all put the Church first and stop our petty and immature squabbles and lust for power.  Communism is dead.  It's time the Bishops got together and dug another hole to bury all the left over garbage from that era as they did in 1970 with the creation of the OCA.  Prior to 1970 there were familes separated, court cases, priest conflicts as a result of this garbage.  Though things still aren't perfect. I have seen progress in the relationship between the OCA and remaining MP parishes here in the US.  Priest concelebrating, people socializing and attending each other affairs and churches, etc.  People sitting and praying together that wouldn't be caught dead in the same room 30+ years ago.  Prior to the creation of the OCA.

It's time we all dug the second hole to bury the remaing garbage so the stink will never come back again.  And be the family God wants ius to be.

Orthodox
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« Reply #114 on: January 15, 2006, 05:15:14 AM »

With all due respect to everyone offering opinions on the jurisdictional chaos in non-traditionally orthodox countries like the USA, isn't it all an indication of the fact that none of these various and competing churches can reasonably claim to be the Church.  Doesn't it all show with incredible clarity what happens when the petrine primacy is ignored or dismissed?  Don't we just end up with a jungle of competing "jurisdictions" in a way painfully reminiscent of the proliferation of Protestant groups...
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« Reply #115 on: January 15, 2006, 08:01:44 AM »

[Speaking of which, this problem about the relationship between OCA and ROCA should ROCA be granted autocephaly by the MP is purely an American issue, as is this business of being in or out of SCOBA.ÂÂ  For those of us on this side of the pond, if ROCA is granted autocephaly by the MP, then the only two Russian jurisdictions that will be here will be the MP and ROCA. ]

Chances of ROCA as an entity being granted autocephally are slim to none.  ROCA has churches throughout the world.  Autocephallous Churches are created by a territorial identity.  So what would you call this new ROCA Autocephalous Church?  The Russian Orthodox Church Outside the Borders of Russia?  ÃƒÆ’‚ If it's outside the borders of Russia, it is no longer the 'Russian Orthodox Church'.  Not only will it create problems here in America where there already is an autocephalous Church created by the MP, which in itself would restrict the MP from creating another autocephalous Church within the same terriitory.  The canons forbid it.  It would also create problems in western Europe, as will as other continents throughout the world where there are ROCA & other Othodox jurisdictions.  

It's time we all put the Church first and stop our petty and immature squabbles and lust for power.ÂÂ  Communism is dead.ÂÂ  It's time the Bishops got together and dug another hole to bury all the left over garbage from that era as they did in 1970 with the creation of the OCA.ÂÂ  Prior to 1970 there were familes separated, court cases, priest conflicts as a result of this garbage.ÂÂ  Though things still aren't perfect. I have seen progress in the relationship between the OCA and remaining MP parishes here in the US.ÂÂ  Priest concelebrating, people socializing and attending each other affairs and churches, etc.ÂÂ  People sitting and praying together that wouldn't be caught dead in the same room 30+ years ago.ÂÂ  Prior to the creation of the OCA.

It's time we all dug the second hole to bury the remaing garbage so the stink will never come back again.ÂÂ  And be the family God wants ius to be.

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« Reply #116 on: January 15, 2006, 06:01:37 PM »

To bring things into perspective.ÂÂ  All canonical Eastern Orthodox Churches in the United states recognize that they a part of the One Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.ÂÂ  The issue of jurisdictions is the controversy of how the churches are administered and what the relationship of each is to the other (i.e. the politics).

In simplest terms it was the result of the chaos created in the Church when the Bolshevik's took over Russia and limited the funding and clergy available to the Orthodox Church in the US.ÂÂ  Parishes and unorganized ethnic immigrant communitiesÂÂ  dispersed by the results of WWI, the Bolshevik Revolution,ÂÂ  and the breakup of the Ottoman Empire were concerned about the lack of Hierarchal leadership and the ability to get priest.ÂÂ  TheyÂÂ  appealed to their old mother churches rather than lose their children to the American Protestant Churches or the Roman Catholic Churches.ÂÂ  The Mother Churches.Patriarchates took mercy upon them and sent priests and eventually hierarchies to establish some stability to churches that served the children of their homelands.

ROCOR and the Metropolia (now theÂÂ  OCA) have had periods of timeÂÂ  in which they reconciled and times when they separated during this period causing some problems in the representation of the Russian People.ÂÂ  The OCA was created when the Metropolia accepted the legitimacy of the Moscow Patriarchate and was given "autocephaly" by the Patriarch. This furthered the Rift between ROCOR and OCA. Later the ROCOR synod unhappywith the actions of the EP and many (but not all of the SCOBA Bishops) went out of Communion with many and the hierarchal level a condition that continues to this date.

There are many Orthodox people in the United States seeking to correct this multijurisdictional status like Orthodox People Together and Orthodox Christian Laity. It is important to remember that the majority of the Orthodox People and Jurisdictions in the US are in Communion with each otherÂÂ  and with the Mother Churches of Orthodoxy around the world. They fully recognize the unity of the Orthodox Church on Issues of Faith and beliefs.ÂÂ  The y cooper4ate with each other through the giving to United Orthodox Charities like The IOOC and there seminarians often attend seminaries run by other jurisdictions.

As to the question about the MP and OCA both having churches in the US, these churches are officially called "representational parishes" specifically to serve the members of their nationalities. It is of interest to note that there are OCA parishes in Russia that serve Americans and English speakingÂÂ  Orthodox living in Russia. You may wish to see these as Consulates of each Church.ÂÂ  They are fully in Communion with each other and the Host Bishops (in the US and Russia) frequently provide support to the Representational Parishes in their country. Likewise when Hierarch visit from theÂÂ  sponsoring Church the Host Hierarch serve with them at the Representational Churches.

Sadly the ones who make the most of the multi-juridictionalismÂÂ  in the US are usually the Orthodox themselves and not outsiders. They do more harm because rather than seeing that they are "In Communion" with each other, they seek to sow the seeds of discord and in a real sense deny the Communality of the Holy Orthodox and Catholic Church.

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« Reply #117 on: January 15, 2006, 06:05:39 PM »

With all due respect to everyone offering opinions on the jurisdictional chaos in non-traditionally orthodox countries like the USA, isn't it all an indication of the fact that none of these various and competing churches can reasonably claim to be the Church.ÂÂ  Doesn't it all show with incredible clarity what happens when the petrine primacy is ignored or dismissed?ÂÂ  Don't we just end up with a jungle of competing "jurisdictions" in a way painfully reminiscent of the proliferation of Protestant groups...

Bruno, who then would you assert has the True apostolic procession?  That was one of the main reasons for me starting this thread.  To make sure that I am joining the True Church.  So far, from my studies, ROCOR qualifies.  Do you disagree? If so, then why?

Thank you for entertaining this question.

God Bless,
T
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« Reply #118 on: January 15, 2006, 06:39:29 PM »

With all due respect to everyone offering opinions on the jurisdictional chaos in non-traditionally orthodox countries like the USA, isn't it all an indication of the fact that none of these various and competing churches can reasonably claim to be the Church.ÂÂÂ  Doesn't it all show with incredible clarity what happens when the petrine primacy is ignored or dismissed?ÂÂÂ  Don't we just end up with a jungle of competing "jurisdictions" in a way painfully reminiscent of the proliferation of Protestant groups...

No.ÂÂ  On the other hand, your post shows with incredible clarity that you look like a Latin troll with an agenda who knows very little about Orthodox ecclesiology.
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« Reply #119 on: January 17, 2006, 12:52:23 AM »

http://www.st-catherine.ru/en/ Here is an OCA parish in Moscow. 
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« Reply #120 on: February 03, 2006, 04:49:38 PM »

Truth_or_bust,

I certainly believe that the ROCOR has true Apostolic succession, and is a true church.  As you know, in the USA, it has had some outstanding figures of Orthodoxy, Father Seraphim Rose and Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco, not to mention the monks of Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville.  From this perspective, it is certainly the most impressive "jurisdiction" in the USA.  My point about the petrine ministry was intended to raise the question of how some jurisdictions can be in different degrees of communion with each other, and yet all claim equally to be the Church.  The jurisdictional infighting which seems almost constant (prescinding from the craziness that goes on among Orthodox traditionalists -- see the Euphrosynos cafe for that!) argues for the need some kind of authority beyond the merely synodal.

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« Reply #121 on: February 03, 2006, 10:32:28 PM »

Good luck on that whole authority thing.  The only way to stop it and put in ideas that actually make sense, and the only way to get anything REALLY done is to become a bishop yourself.  That's the only way that real change will happen "authoritatively" so yah...good luck.  I've heard this all the time, but its always good to repeat things, "you never know how it is on the throne until you sit there" so we can talk all we want but until we're in their shoes we'll never really know what they have to deal with.  We may think that they have their authority issues all messed up, but that's what they have to deal with on their level.  Maybe we should do our utmost to help and come forth with understanding and HELP, instead of admonish.  Just some thoughts...
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« Reply #122 on: February 04, 2006, 10:35:25 AM »

Greetings,
I am curious to know the opinions of some established Orthodox here concerning
acceptable Jurisdictions.  From my studies in the last five months I have come to understand
that there is a measure of politics as to what is considered acceptable.   My concern is
being received into Orthodoxy in a canonically proper method.  Also, I travel quite a bit
and there is a good chance I will need to attend Parishes in various jurisdictions.  I want
to make sure my conversion into Orthodoxy is correct.

Having said that I wanted to get some feedback on the general perspective concerning the status
of ROCOR.  I have been attending a ROCOR Church and am about to become a Cathecuman with plans
on being Baptised the Saturday before Pascha '06 (!!!).  This has been a long study for me so far but now
I am learning of the politics.   This is a very important step for me and I wanted to hear some comments
on my situation of very possibly having to attend various Parishes when traveling.  It is obviously important
that my conversion be canonical in every way.

Thanks for any comments on this issue,
Truth or Bust

From my experience . . . I would say that you should go wherever you feel, not only comfortable, but feel that your are in the presence of God. 
I have had a long struggle trying to figure out which church to attend, and finally realized that it wasn't the church that didn't make me feel that I was in God's house, it was the actions and attitudes of the parishioners as well as the priest, and the heirarchs who have allowed things to fester for many, many years.  It got to the point that I would wake up on Sunday morning and have to decide if I wanted to go to church.  I didn't like that feeling.  Although I've been told to stay and fight to make changes for the better, I feel I'm better off travelling 30 to 70 minutes one way to attend another church rather than 10 minutes and stay where I am. 
I wish you the best and many blessings in your journey into Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #123 on: February 04, 2006, 03:16:29 PM »

I have had a long struggle trying to figure out which church to attend, and finally realized that it wasn't the church that didn't make me feel that I was in God's house, it was the actions and attitudes of the parishioners as well as the priest, and the heirarchs who have allowed things to fester for many, many years.  It got to the point that I would wake up on Sunday morning and have to decide if I wanted to go to church.  I didn't like that feeling.  Although I've been told to stay and fight to make changes for the better, I feel I'm better off travelling 30 to 70 minutes one way to attend another church rather than 10 minutes and stay where I am.

I know exactly how you feel Psalti, because I am in the same situation right now.  Undecided  Sad

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« Reply #124 on: February 04, 2006, 04:17:46 PM »

I know exactly how you feel Psalti, because I am in the same situation right now.  Undecided  Sad



That's too bad.  I truly know the feeling.  I pray that we will find peace soon.
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« Reply #125 on: February 04, 2006, 04:24:24 PM »

Despite what the people who represent the church at any level (clergy or laity) do to screw it up, the Truth of Orthodoxy and the Love of God prevail in the end.  I hope you both find the Peace that Passes Understanding.
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« Reply #126 on: February 05, 2006, 04:24:09 PM »

Bruno,

The problems you bring up (infighting, schisms whether brief or enduring) are nothing new.  It is not as if before the Pope cut himself off from the Orthodox Church that there was somehow this wonderful homogeny where everyone more or less got along and the "trains arrived on time every day", so to speak.

I also have to wonder out loud whether the supposed "unity" which a Pope-like-figure would provide is really all it is cracked up to be.  Just after breaking itself off from the Orthodox Church, the power of the Roman Popes was at it's height.  Yet if you look at the history of western (Papal) Christendom from that time on it is an endless story of schism and turmoil - yet this gets overlooked by a lot of people for whatever reason.  There were the profound "anti-Pope" schisms where you had multiple "credible" men running around calling themselves "Pope" with a good chunk of Latin Christendom following them.  There were also major heresies which took over entire nations, such as Albigensianism (neo-gnosticism!).  And you should of course remember the biggest series of enduring schisms/heresies broke out under the watch of the Popes, ones which endure to this day throughout the western world - namely, Protestantism (in it's hundreds of flavours.)

Also, look at the face of Catholicism now - while what is left of the Papally united western Christendom does have a certain neatness and centralized administration, the sad truth is that their unity is a fascade; it is a church which houses the most outrageous forms of heresy (even by it's own, often ignored, "official" standards) and disorder (theological, moral, liturgical, etc.)

Given all of this, I can't see just what is so special about Papal-type ecclessiology in one form or another.  While the Orthodox Church has suffered persecutions and lots of personal pettiness throughout the same period, the fact of the matter is there is an incredible spiritual homogeny, which I would think to a Christian is what would be of the most significance.

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« Reply #127 on: February 05, 2006, 08:29:03 PM »


While talking to a non-Orthodox friend he posed this question to me, and I have yet to give him a response:

"If you truly believe in and worship God, then what difference does it make which church you go to to worship Him?"  Good question and I didn't know what to say because I never thought about it in that way before. 

Does God really care which church you go to to worship Him in, or if you worship Him at home?  We claim to be the true church that can be traced back to the Apostles.  Does that mean that all other 'Christians' are doing it wrong and for nothing?  Will they go to Heaven if they worship God and lead their lives according to His teachings, but just happen to be going to a different church? 

As you can see from my writings, I am still struggling over this.  Some have told me that I have to fight to make the changes for my parish.  I don't go to church to fight.  I go to worship God.  If being a Mr. Fixit is part of Orhtodoxy . . . then I don't know.  Others have suggested that I visit a non-denominational church.  I just don't know.

Please give me your thoughts.

Thank you all for your help.

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« Reply #128 on: February 05, 2006, 10:12:55 PM »

While talking to a non-Orthodox friend he posed this question to me, and I have yet to give him a response:

"If you truly believe in and worship God, then what difference does it make which church you go to to worship Him?"  Good question and I didn't know what to say because I never thought about it in that way before. 

Does God really care which church you go to to worship Him in, or if you worship Him at home?  We claim to be the true church that can be traced back to the Apostles.  Does that mean that all other 'Christians' are doing it wrong and for nothing?  Will they go to Heaven if they worship God and lead their lives according to His teachings, but just happen to be going to a different church? 

Speaking as someone who's still exploring Orthodoxy, I think these are important questions. For myself, I would say that it does matter which church you go to. First of all, the idea of worshiping at home--you certainly can do that (and should), but we need the Church as well. Anyone who thinks they don't apparently isn't concerned with having a biblical faith. As for the church one chooses, I would not say that a person who goes to a different church is not going to heaven (boy, I hope that's not the case!)--God's grace operates everywhere and in different ways, and to a great extent Orthodoxy is still unknown in much of the Western world.

On the other hand, I really think it does make a difference which Church you're part of. As far as that goes, I would say that Orthodoxy embodies the true Church, and most of what passes for "church" in Western traditions barely deserves the name. For me, this is one of the issues that bothers me about my current situation. I truly believe that the Church is defined sacramentally, but until I convert I cannot participate in the sacraments. My situation is complicated, because my wife has no interest in Orthodoxy, and I'm reluctant to take this kind of step without her. But in the meantime, I can go to our Evangelical church and feel like I'm faking it, or attend Orthodox services and feel like a spectator. I want the sacraments, I want to be subject to a true bishop, I want to participate in a community--the community that Christ established. Not that I think Orthodox churches are perfect--but they preserve the tradition of faith on which the unity of the Church was and should be founded. I long for Western Christians to see this and return to communion with the East. But I can't wait for that to happen and feel that I am following Christ the way I should.

I should add that I fully understand why people like my wife and many Evangelical friends do not want Orthodoxy. Looking back, I can see that I have come by a very specific path--one that is not open to many people. There are other paths certainly, but I can see what a careful process it was to tear down my biases, so that I could look at Orthodoxy with open eyes. IMO, it is much harder for someone born and raised in Western Protestantism to accept Orthodoxy than for someone who has no prior exposure to Christianity of any sort. Perhaps it happens with them more because they are more highly motivated, but there is still a lot of baggage to deal with. I also respect the good that Western Christians do. They are by no means completely without grace, and in some important ways they have continued the work of the Spirit in the West where no other vehicle was available. I long for them to find their fulfillment in Orthodoxy, and at the same time I long for Orthodoxy to become a more visible light in the world. But for myself personally, I think it's important enough to be part of the true Church that I would convert tomorrow if I could.

Trevor
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« Reply #129 on: February 05, 2006, 10:25:53 PM »

Speaking as someone who's still exploring Orthodoxy, I think these are important questions. For myself, I would say that it does matter which church you go to. First of all, the idea of worshiping at home--you certainly can do that (and should), but we need the Church as well. Anyone who thinks they don't apparently isn't concerned with having a biblical faith. As for the church one chooses, I would not say that a person who goes to a different church is not going to heaven (boy, I hope that's not the case!)--God's grace operates everywhere and in different ways, and to a great extent Orthodoxy is still unknown in much of the Western world.

On the other hand, I really think it does make a difference which Church you're part of. As far as that goes, I would say that Orthodoxy embodies the true Church, and most of what passes for "church" in Western traditions barely deserves the name. For me, this is one of the issues that bothers me about my current situation. I truly believe that the Church is defined sacramentally, but until I convert I cannot participate in the sacraments. My situation is complicated, because my wife has no interest in Orthodoxy, and I'm reluctant to take this kind of step without her. But in the meantime, I can go to our Evangelical church and feel like I'm faking it, or attend Orthodox services and feel like a spectator. I want the sacraments, I want to be subject to a true bishop, I want to participate in a community--the community that Christ established. Not that I think Orthodox churches are perfect--but they preserve the tradition of faith on which the unity of the Church was and should be founded. I long for Western Christians to see this and return to communion with the East. But I can't wait for that to happen and feel that I am following Christ the way I should.

I should add that I fully understand why people like my wife and many Evangelical friends do not want Orthodoxy. Looking back, I can see that I have come by a very specific path--one that is not open to many people. There are other paths certainly, but I can see what a careful process it was to tear down my biases, so that I could look at Orthodoxy with open eyes. IMO, it is much harder for someone born and raised in Western Protestantism to accept Orthodoxy than for someone who has no prior exposure to Christianity of any sort. Perhaps it happens with them more because they are more highly motivated, but there is still a lot of baggage to deal with. I also respect the good that Western Christians do. They are by no means completely without grace, and in some important ways they have continued the work of the Spirit in the West where no other vehicle was available. I long for them to find their fulfillment in Orthodoxy, and at the same time I long for Orthodoxy to become a more visible light in the world. But for myself personally, I think it's important enough to be part of the true Church that I would convert tomorrow if I could.

Trevor

I wish you well on your journey to Orthodoxy.  May you never encounter the struggles I have.
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« Reply #130 on: February 06, 2006, 12:38:55 AM »

I would consider entering the ROCOR to be a blessing. The Church has produced a number of Saints, and has done far more for Orthodoxy outside of Eastern Europe than at least one of the jurisdicitons that seems to sometimes condem it have.

Schisms are schisms, yes. And schismatics are heretics. However, the issue of the ROCOR not being under the MP is far from a black and white issue. And I as a layman, would see no problem in joining the ROCOR. But once again, that's only me.
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« Reply #131 on: February 21, 2006, 09:59:43 PM »

And schismatics are heretics.

This isn't necessarily true at all.

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« Reply #132 on: February 21, 2006, 10:45:53 PM »

Oh, I can't remember which father I was reading that said that "schismatics" are actually worse than "heretics" for dividing the Body of Christ over something less than a dogmatic issue...
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« Reply #133 on: February 21, 2006, 11:23:11 PM »

Oh, I can't remember which father I was reading that said that "schismatics" are actually worse than "heretics" for dividing the Body of Christ over something less than a dogmatic issue...

Chrysostom:

Quote
I assert and protest, that to make a schism in the Church is no less an evil than to fall into heresy. Tell me, suppose a subject of some king, though he did not join himself to another king, nor give himself to any other, yet should take and keep hold of his king's royal purple, and should tear it all from its clasp, and rend it into many shreds; would he suffer less punishment than those who join. themselves to the service of another? And what, if withal he were to seize the king himself by the throat and slay him, and tear his body limb from limb, what punishment could he undergo, that should be equal to his deserts? Now if in doing this toward a king, his fellow-servant, he would be committing an act too great for any punishment to reach; of what hell shall not he be worthy who slays Christ, and plucks Him limb from limb? of that one which is threatened? No, I think not, but of another far more dreadful.
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« Reply #134 on: February 22, 2006, 12:54:50 AM »

Quote
Insert Quote
Quote from: cleveland on Today at 09:45:53 PM
Oh, I can't remember which father I was reading that said that "schismatics" are actually worse than "heretics" for dividing the Body of Christ over something less than a dogmatic issue...

Chrysostom:

Do you happen to know which book that's from?  Or letter...?
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« Reply #135 on: February 22, 2006, 02:48:58 PM »

11th Homily on Ephesians.
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« Reply #136 on: February 22, 2006, 02:52:36 PM »

Thanks a lot!  Time to get reading...
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« Reply #137 on: February 23, 2006, 02:31:48 AM »

Oh, I can't remember which father I was reading that said that "schismatics" are actually worse than "heretics" for dividing the Body of Christ over something less than a dogmatic issue...

Well, sometimes this is so, and sometimes it is not.  It still doesn't mean that heresy and schism are synonymous.
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« Reply #138 on: February 23, 2006, 07:06:08 AM »

Well, sometimes this is so, and sometimes it is not.  It still doesn't mean that heresy and schism are synonymous.

The real point is that division of the body of Christ is to be taken very seriously, and when done for merely administrative purposes, the Church has very harsh pronouncements.
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« Reply #139 on: February 23, 2006, 05:45:13 PM »

Quote
The real point is that division of the body of Christ is to be taken very seriously, and when done for merely administrative purposes, the Church has very harsh pronouncements.

Like what?  How do you think this correlates to the question of ecclisiological heresy I brought up in Faith Issues???
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« Reply #140 on: February 23, 2006, 06:09:18 PM »

Like what?  How do you think this correlates to the question of ecclisiological heresy I brought up in Faith Issues???

It's not heresy, ecclesiological or otherwise, it's schism...but the canons apply the same penality as is applied for heresy, anathema.
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« Reply #141 on: February 24, 2006, 10:05:27 AM »

So what we're talking about here is administrative schizm?  What are we "schizaming" from??  
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« Reply #142 on: February 24, 2006, 11:09:30 AM »

administrative schism, non-dogmatic schism (like if two churches were to split over the doctrine of the Assumption), and others; in the end, schism (in the sense that the fathers condemn it) is dividing the Church over issues non-dogmatic in nature; but "schism" from heretical bishops is different...
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« Reply #143 on: February 24, 2006, 12:01:43 PM »

So is a schizm really happening?  Are we dividing the church? Are we dividing ourselves FROM the church?  

I personally think that if the definition is division, then that's exactly what we are doing.  But at the same time, I could make the same case for the different jurisdictons, without the American context.  Yet, that situation has become an accepted way of being for the Orthodox church.  So what does that mean for America?  

I would say that this is a totally different context b/c its 1 country dealing with all the jurisdictions.  Not the whole world, which is totally different.  
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« Reply #144 on: February 24, 2006, 01:17:36 PM »

So is a schizm really happening?  Are we dividing the church? Are we dividing ourselves FROM the church?  

I personally think that if the definition is division, then that's exactly what we are doing.  But at the same time, I could make the same case for the different jurisdictons, without the American context.  Yet, that situation has become an accepted way of being for the Orthodox church.  So what does that mean for America?  

I would say that this is a totally different context b/c its 1 country dealing with all the jurisdictions.  Not the whole world, which is totally different.  

Don'y you have a thread dedicated to this subject?  use this post to resurrect that thread!
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« Reply #145 on: February 24, 2006, 02:33:21 PM »

I think I should just put the link up, to make it easier for others...

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=8250.new#new
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« Reply #146 on: May 29, 2007, 11:52:55 PM »

Silouan wrote:

    "The theory that makes the most sense to me is that many of the current MP people in power were not actual KGB agents,   rather they were the Orthodox Christians within the Church most favored by Soviet authorities (and for reasons such as least likely to connect with the people, least likely to advocate a religious fight against the government).  So while this is hardly the ideal situation of a free Church, it is a far cry from bishops who are actual KGB agents."

   Following is part of the indictment of George Trofimoff, a U.S. citizen working as a civilianin military intelligence for the U.S. Government. Mr. Trofimoff was convicted of espionage against the U.S., and was RECRUITED as a KGB agent by Metropolitan Iriney (Susemihl) of Vienna and Austira of the Moscow Patriarchate. RECRUITING agents would hardly be a task of someone who was "not an actual KGB agent" but someone who was "favored by the Soviet authorities."

Item: 18. Igor  Vladimirovich Susemihl, a/k/a Zuzemihl, also called “Iriney,” was a  priest of the Russian Orthodox church who served as the Archbishop of  Vienna and Austria and Temporary Archbishop of Baden and Bavaria, and  later served as Metropolitan of Vienna and Austria, and who resided in  the vicinity of Munich, Federal Republic of Germany, until his death in  1999.


19. The  defendant GEORGE TROFIMOFF was raised in Germany with Susemihl, who was  also the son of Russian émigrés, and TROFIMOFF considered Susemihl to  be his “brother.” Beginning during the 1960s, TROFIMOFF and Susemihl  met often and maintained a close personal relationship.


20. In or  about 1969, after the defendant GEORGE TROFIMOFF became the Chief of the  United States Army Element at the Nuernberg JIC, Susemihl recruited him  into the service of the KGB.


(1) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF secretly took classified United States documents relating to  the national defense away from the Nuernberg JIC.


(2) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF secretly photographed classified United States documents  relating to the national defense.


(3) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF secretly removed and replaced staples in classified United  States documents relating to the national defense in order to photograph  the documents' contents.


(4) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF secretly returned classified United States documents relating  to the national defense to the Nuernberg JIC.


(5) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF purchased a Minox camera at the direction of the KGB, but  “turned it back in” through Igor Susemihl because “it was too  dangerous to have.”


(6) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF used a double-frame camera to photograph the contents of  classified United States documents relating to the national defense.


(7) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF made and used a device to place documents while he  photographed them, “so the page would fit exactly.”


(Cool GEORGE  TROFIMOFF possessed two goose neck lamps in 1994.


(9) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF purchased film.


(10) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF put rolls of exposed film back into their original boxes and  glued the boxes shut.


(11) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF stored boxes of exposed film at his home until he delivered  them to Igor Susemihl.


(12) GEORGE  TROFIMOFF hand carried boxes of exposed film to Igor Susemihl.

The Indictment can be found at: http://cicentre.com/Documents/DOC_Trofimoff_Affidavit.htm
Also see: http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/k/kgb/index.html?

Item:
  In February 1988, exactly thirty years after his recruitment as an agent, Alexei was given an award by the KGB in recognition of his long service for them."
The KGB gives out awards, like other military and secret police establishments, to those who SERVED them, not those whom the government "favored."
See: http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=13868

Also:
 
   "The story of the post-communist Russian Orthodox Church is one of lost opportunities. After the failure of the 1991 pro-communist coup, Gleb Yakunin, a dissident priest and member of the parliament, was briefly given access to a section of the KGB archives which showed that the top hierarchs of the Moscow Patriarchate were agents of the KGB. The most important KGB agent was the Patriarch, Alexei II, himself. Yakunin wrote to Alexei and said that he and other church leaders should . . . ask for forgiveness, pointing out that "our people are forgiving." But only one archbishop, Khrizostom of Lithuania, had the courage to acknowledge that he worked as an agent for the KGB and to reveal his codename, "Restavrator." All of the other implicated church leaders remained silent."

So, Metropolitan Khrizostom of Lithuania ADMITS service as a KGB AGENT, but, there are still those who wish not to acknowledge this, and come up with "theories" that "make the most sense." Sorry, ut appears that evidence has uncermined this "theory," and proven that Bishops and other clergy of the MP (as well as other Orthodox Churches in countries under Soviet control) served the KGB as AGENTS.
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« Reply #147 on: May 30, 2007, 01:11:41 AM »

very interesting article...

I don't understand why you posted this though?   Huh   
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« Reply #148 on: May 30, 2007, 01:35:42 AM »

What I fail to understand is how spying against the US is somehow heretical. Guess the definition has REALLY expanded over the last few years Roll Eyes
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« Reply #149 on: May 30, 2007, 02:23:55 AM »

See: http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=13868

Also:
 
   "The story of the post-communist Russian Orthodox Church is one of lost opportunities. After the failure of the 1991 pro-communist coup, Gleb Yakunin, a dissident priest and member of the parliament, was briefly given access to a section of the KGB archives which showed that the top hierarchs of the Moscow Patriarchate were agents of the KGB. The most important KGB agent was the Patriarch, Alexei II, himself. Yakunin wrote to Alexei and said that he and other church leaders should . . . ask for forgiveness, pointing out that "our people are forgiving." But only one archbishop, Khrizostom of Lithuania, had the courage to acknowledge that he worked as an agent for the KGB and to reveal his codename, "Restavrator." All of the other implicated church leaders remained silent."

So, Metropolitan Khrizostom of Lithuania ADMITS service as a KGB AGENT, but, there are still those who wish not to acknowledge this, and come up with "theories" that "make the most sense." Sorry, ut appears that evidence has uncermined this "theory," and proven that Bishops and other clergy of the MP (as well as other Orthodox Churches in countries under Soviet control) served the KGB as AGENTS.

So, it's OK for an apparently anti-Moscow, anti-ecumenist such as yourself to use a Roman Catholic web site when you can use the posted information to attack your enemies?
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« Reply #150 on: June 01, 2007, 04:07:22 AM »

HHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMM . . .why did I post that? Um did anyone see at the top, where I typed that part that said "Silouan wrote"? uh- you know what, I typed what Silouan wrote! Silouan wrote (gee I'm typin it again!) that he did not think anyone in power in the MP now was ever a KGB agent for real, just Orthodox Christians "favored by the government." Uh I really dont get that at all Silouan-but oh well anyway-then I put all that other stuff in there to show that Hierarchs of the MP were actually KGB agents!
Did I say spying against the US was heretical in there? Uh let me see-uh-nope I did not say that. Perhaps you could show me? Huh?
The info about Metropolitan Khrizostom was proabably on the Catholic website because Lithuania is mainly a Catholic country. How am I attacking anyone? It is pretty much common knowledge that MP Hierarchs were KGB agents. Its what they call-uh-let me think now-yeh-a historical fact! Thats it! but it seemed like ole Silouan didnt know that, he had come up with the "best idea" of what happened in the Soviet Union on his own, so I just thought I would share that uh-what did I say it was? oh yeh-that historical fact with him.
And ya know i am reeeeeellllllllleeeeeeeeeee sorry about that catholic website an all-uh-i bet you only get ALL your information from Orthodox sources though huh? tell me how ya do that i would really like ta know -
and um-hows come you think someone HAS to be attackin enemies when they simply cite on a them things-uh -them historical facts? i dont know you-i dont know who your enemies are-i dont even gots enemies that i know of! but i guess you thin i do huh? wow -u liek ta assume stuff huh-ya know what they say about that haha! sounds like anti moscow anti ecumenist peoples r ur enemies huh? did like one of em do somthin bad to ya one time or somthin? sorry-hope they didnt hurt ya or nuthin-i guess not guess they just make u all mad an stuff huh? cause let me tall ya it sounded like u was ALL mad when you said that! wow i thought that greekls guy is all mad! so hope ya aint all mad anynore ok u kno it aint good to be all mad for a long time its bad for ur heart an stuff u shouldnt worry too much just be all happy ok its more fun that way ya cant have fun when ur mad now can ya???
oh i get it u say stuff like so its ok antimoscowantiecumenist roman catholic website when ur all mad an u wana attack ur enemies huh? i get it!!! i guess -uh if im like all wrong an stuf maybe u can tell me why u posted that ok?
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« Reply #151 on: June 01, 2007, 05:25:56 AM »

Truth_or_Bust, forgive me please for not following this but now that ROCOR is united with the Russian Orthodox Church I take it your troubles have eased. As I know the Coptic Pope and the Russian Patriarch are close I hope that our Churches may enter into inter-communion in our lifetime!
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« Reply #152 on: June 01, 2007, 11:13:12 AM »

A Sombra,

I hope that you did not misunderstand my question.  I asked why you posted because I genuinly did not understand why you posted.  If you thought that I was trying to take a "stab" at you...I wasn't.  Please forgive me if this came accross in any way. 

Ultimately I'm confused, because if I understand you correctly, you posted your facts in order to show us that MP bishops were KGB spies. 

My next honest question (again not trying to poke at you) is, so what?  So what if they were?  I'm not saying I agree or disagree, I just want to know where you're comming from on this and where you want to go. 

Thank you in advance for your understanding.   Smiley
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« Reply #153 on: June 02, 2007, 02:19:17 AM »

serb1389,
  ok here i go i will try again-SILOUAN WROTE (i havent looked yet again for the exact quote) something to the effect thathe did not think that any MP Bishops were "KGB Agents," but "Orthodox Christians favored by the government" -he said soemthing liek that was the best idea he could come up with to describe it-some thing like that-
so, first of all, the only reason I posted that was to show that there were MP Bishops who were ACTUAL KGB AGENTS-i never said SPIES, ok? Im pther words, this person was  mistaken about a historical fact that has to do with Orthodoxy, and I wanted to gibe him the correct infomration.
"SO WHAT?" A KGB AGENT is something very much different than a spy. In many instances, clergy (Bishops and priests) serving as KGB agents actively helped the communist government in its effort to destroy the Church by helping to close churhes, as well as persecuting believers, informing on beleivers, etc., at times resulting in these believers serving years of living hell in the gulag, or resulting in their death. Read about the New Martyrs of Russia, especailly the Bishops and Ckergy who did not support Met. Sergius and his decree of support for the bolsheviks.
"SO WHAT?" First of all, if you think of KGB only as "spies," well, then you dont know anything about the KGB; secondly, if you do know about the KGB, then you would not be so flip as to say "SO WHAT!" about a Bishop or priest being a KGB agent. "SO WHAT if KGB masquerading as clergy informed on Orthodox Christians, which led to their death or imprisonment?" SO WHAT like that? SO WHAT if KGB masquerading as clergy went to Western Europe and swore on the Cross and Gospels that there was "no persecution of the Church in Russia", when the whole world knew there was, thereby making fools of ALL Orthodox clergy before the world, as well as denigrating the struggle of the Holy Martyrs in Russia, also while showing a complete disrespect for the Cross and the Gospels? DO you mean SO WHAT like that? You yourself would not be "worried" about such so-called "clergy" if you had to go to those clergy yourself for confession, or had to depend upon them for anything?
  So-serb1389-do you get it now or what? and before anybody else flips out about my "enemies" or any other such nonsense, you know what? read about it-Father Gleb Yakunin was the Russian Orthodox priest who found most of this information in the KGB archives while he was a member of the Russian Duma (parliament)-before anybody starts crying or getting all apoplectic or thei r briefs in a bunch, anything, Father Gleb is not nor never has been in ROCOR or supported any other "Traditionalist" or -OH MY GOD! non-scoba jurisdiction, and is generally regarded as an upstanding, truthful, honorable man;
   I know that they had problems in Serbia with such things, of course, not on the same scale as in Russia; at any rate, I dont know-such replies really kinda knock me for a loop-if someone who is Orthodox is really that-lets say unknowledgable about the persecution of Orthodox Christians on the greatest scale ever in the history of the world-what can i say? it is sad-
the communists were COMPLETELY in control in russia-that is accepted as historical fact, right? well-what does "comepletely in control" mean? they were also comepletly in control of the Orthodox Church in Russia-every Patirarch who was "elected," every Bishop who was consecrated, every priest who was ordained-ALL had to be approved by the government (so PLEASE spare me the "it was just like it was with the Turks" routine, OK?) so, is it really that UNBELIEVABLE that the governemnt would put some of their men in there? is it that "CRAZY" that they would not choose only upstanding staunch orthodox monastics as Bishops?
  so-where am i coming from-telling silouan about historical fact-where do i wanna "go" with it? where can i go? am i gonna condemn the entire MP because of it? no DO i ahve som eother antiMP agenda with this? no so YOU TELL ME-where did you fear i would "GO"? where could i "GO"? i am really serious here to answers to these questions -or, also-please tell me-would you rather just not hear or know abouot such things that happened in the past? dont care much about hitory of the orthodox church? or what? i dont get what you are going at -truly-
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« Reply #154 on: June 02, 2007, 02:34:04 AM »

greekischristian wrote:
 
  "What I fail to understand is how spying against the US is somehow heretical . . . "

  As I never said anything in my post even REMOTELY close to such nonsense, I fail to understand how you came up with that foolishness-unless your intention is to simply claim that i wrote something that i did not write-uh-perhaps you can tell me-what did they call that in the byzantine empire-you know, when someone says something about another person that is not true, or anywhere even remotely close to the truth? did they have a name for that in the "EMPIRE"Huh
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« Reply #155 on: June 02, 2007, 02:39:00 AM »

Peter the Aleut wrote:

   "So, it's OK for an apparently anti-Moscow, anti-ecumenist such as yourself to use a Roman Catholic web site when you can use the posted information to attack your enemies?"

  Wow, you really must think you know everything about me there is to know, huh? Tell me how you know so much about me-who are my enemies? how was I "attacking" anyone? I must say, your post was pretty hateful and nasty for someone who goes around on internet forums calling himself by a saints name! Do you often accuse people like that, or, you just like me in particular? Cmon now dont be shy-you were awful quick with it -care to back it up with something other than more nastiness?
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« Reply #156 on: June 02, 2007, 02:41:20 AM »

A Sombra,

Is it better to be right or contrite?
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« Reply #157 on: June 02, 2007, 10:08:30 AM »

So I would like to start my comments with this.  Not everyone knows what you know, I know this may be hard to believe, but that's the reality my friend.  No one here, as far as I know can read your mind, unless I am mistaken about that also. 

Also, aparantly, not all of us are as smart as you are.  So instead of jumping down my throat about it, you could have taken this opportunity to teach me something about things that you obviously think you are well versed in.  But, instead, you decided to "break me down" instead of "building me up"....but hey, that's neither here nor there. 

I am a very direct person.  I learn best by people being direct with their points and not convoluding things.  This is why I was so blunt.  If you have a problem with my learning style...well...i'm sorry. 


serb1389,
  ok here i go i will try again-SILOUAN WROTE (i havent looked yet again for the exact quote) something to the effect thathe did not think that any MP Bishops were "KGB Agents," but "Orthodox Christians favored by the government" -he said soemthing liek that was the best idea he could come up with to describe it-some thing like that-
so, first of all, the only reason I posted that was to show that there were MP Bishops who were ACTUAL KGB AGENTS-i never said SPIES, ok? Im pther words, this person was  mistaken about a historical fact that has to do with Orthodoxy, and I wanted to gibe him the correct infomration.

Thank you for giving us the correct information. 

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"SO WHAT?" A KGB AGENT is something very much different than a spy. In many instances, clergy (Bishops and priests) serving as KGB agents actively helped the communist government in its effort to destroy the Church by helping to close churhes, as well as persecuting believers, informing on beleivers, etc., at times resulting in these believers serving years of living hell in the gulag, or resulting in their death. Read about the New Martyrs of Russia, especailly the Bishops and Ckergy who did not support Met. Sergius and his decree of support for the bolsheviks.

I agree with your begining point.  A KGB agent is very different than a spy.  However not all KGB agents have the same job.  Some are spies, some are killers.  And unless you were personally involved and a part of the KGB at the same time as these bishops and were directly linked to them...you ultimately do not know what their capacity was as KGB agents. 

Sure, the bishops such as Met. Sergius made "stupid decisions" but can they directly be linked to killings?  They may have supported a government that was brutal and killers of millions of people, but you mean to tell me that every bishop ever in the history of the church was on the "right side" at all times?  Give me a break. 

I am definitely NOT trying to support these men for what they did.  However you are pointing fingers at many different things without supporting your hypothesis.  Unfortunately, i'm not willing to "just take your word for it"...sorry. 

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"SO WHAT?" First of all, if you think of KGB only as "spies," well, then you dont know anything about the KGB; secondly, if you do know about the KGB, then you would not be so flip as to say "SO WHAT!" about a Bishop or priest being a KGB agent. "SO WHAT if KGB masquerading as clergy informed on Orthodox Christians, which led to their death or imprisonment?" SO WHAT like that? SO WHAT if KGB masquerading as clergy went to Western Europe and swore on the Cross and Gospels that there was "no persecution of the Church in Russia", when the whole world knew there was, thereby making fools of ALL Orthodox clergy before the world, as well as denigrating the struggle of the Holy Martyrs in Russia, also while showing a complete disrespect for the Cross and the Gospels? DO you mean SO WHAT like that? You yourself would not be "worried" about such so-called "clergy" if you had to go to those clergy yourself for confession, or had to depend upon them for anything?

As I said above.  I like to get to the point.  I wasn't being flip.  maybe I am not as eloquent as you are?  Did you think about that?  Maybe i'm really foreign and I couldn't think of a better way to ask you?  Did you try to help me as opposed to labeling me?  I think not..but hey...that's neither here nor there. 

I have gone to these clergy for confession my friend.  Have you ever lived in Communism?  I have.  Maybe you should have asked me first. 

p.s. on that, its a heresy to think that the confession is worthless just because the person of the priest is worthless.  The sanctity of the priesthood is exactly that, no matter WHAT the priest does.  If he's a heretic and declared so and excommunicated or defrocked...that might be a different conversation, but it isn't.  So....yah. 

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So-serb1389-do you get it now or what? and before anybody else flips out about my "enemies" or any other such nonsense, you know what? read about it-Father Gleb Yakunin was the Russian Orthodox priest who found most of this information in the KGB archives while he was a member of the Russian Duma (parliament)-before anybody starts crying or getting all apoplectic or thei r briefs in a bunch, anything, Father Gleb is not nor never has been in ROCOR or supported any other "Traditionalist" or -OH MY GOD! non-scoba jurisdiction, and is generally regarded as an upstanding, truthful, honorable man;

I do get your point now.  You could have explained it to me without tearing me down, and I still would have gotten it.  So think about that.  You could have been nice and helped me understand, or you could have been overbearing and explained it, and I would have understood.  Which do you think would have been the better way to go?  Obviously you chose the latter route...

I'm sure Father Gleb has many good things to say about the situation.  What's wrong with SCOBA?  I'm sure Father Gleb never had a problem with SCOBA...you seem to though (?)...hm. 

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I know that they had problems in Serbia with such things, of course, not on the same scale as in Russia; at any rate, I dont know-such replies really kinda knock me for a loop-if someone who is Orthodox is really that-lets say unknowledgable about the persecution of Orthodox Christians on the greatest scale ever in the history of the world-what can i say? it is sad-the communists were COMPLETELY in control in russia-that is accepted as historical fact, right? well-what does "comepletely in control" mean? they were also comepletly in control of the Orthodox Church in Russia-every Patirarch who was "elected," every Bishop who was consecrated, every priest who was ordained-ALL had to be approved by the government (so PLEASE spare me the "it was just like it was with the Turks" routine, OK?) so, is it really that UNBELIEVABLE that the governemnt would put some of their men in there? is it that "CRAZY" that they would not choose only upstanding staunch orthodox monastics as Bishops?

HAHAHAHA  You think that i'm ignorant about the persecutions?  I lived through those persecutions in Serbia my friend.  I wanted to hear YOUR thoughts on everything, not mine.

I wanted to find out where YOU were comming from and what YOU had to bring to the table.  I did this because I know nothing about you.  So I sent out simple one line questions so that you could be open ended with your responses.  And this is where THAT has led us. 

You know...I actually agree with almost everything you are bringing up.  Maybe if you had taken the time to ask me in a nice way you would have realized that.  I am just as passionate as you about these bishops selling out on Christ and the Gospel.  However, its not like it hasn't happened before, so lets get a grip on ourselves and take a look historically how this was handled and then put forward a SOLUTION.  Just a thought. 

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so-where am i coming from-telling silouan about historical fact-where do i wanna "go" with it? where can i go? am i gonna condemn the entire MP because of it? no DO i ahve som eother antiMP agenda with this? no so YOU TELL ME-where did you fear i would "GO"? where could i "GO"? i am really serious here to answers to these questions -or, also-please tell me-would you rather just not hear or know abouot such things that happened in the past? dont care much about hitory of the orthodox church? or what? i dont get what you are going at -truly-

Where can you go?  I just told you above.  You can look at other historical situations where bishops were a part of killing of people, and see what the reaction of the church was, and then draw a conclusion and parallel diagram between the two situations and then put forward a SOLUTION to the church based on your findings from the situation before. 

There is one thing you can do.  You can also go on this forum and discuss with people in a calm and wonderfully eloquent way about the situation and ask people for advice on what we can do about it.  It all starts from grass roots my friend. 

Unfortunately I am not sure you are looking for a solution.  Otherwise you wouldn't have beat me over the head with your words. 

I love the history of the church.  It does not seem like you do, otherwise you would have already found a parallel situation and figured out that this is not a new situation.  Maybe the scale is bigger and more people are involved, who are still alive, etc.  but ultimately its much like other situations in the church. 

I wouldn't know this if I didn't like church history would I? 

Now for me to get a little bit more passionate since this is what you aparantly responde to best. 

If you think that I am STUPID enough to NOT know anything about this, you are wrong.  If you would take the time to search my posts you will see that I am the BIGGEST crazy person on this site who calls out bishops for what they do.  Do a search I'm sure you won't be disapointed. 

I have been fighting ANTI-CHRIST people my whole life who came to the US after communism and I have lit a FIRE underneath them because of what they have done. 

I sincerely hope you PM me about this because you and I need to talk my friend.  There are definitely more things that need to be said between you and I. 
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I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
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