Author Topic: Orthodox ecclesiology a direct reflection of the Trinitarian equality of Persons  (Read 362 times)

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Offline PorphyriosK

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Elder Sophrony of Essex: Unity of the Church, an Image of the Holy Trinity
http://findingthewaytotheheart.blogspot.com/2019/11/unity-of-church-image-of-holy-trinity.html

^Good article.  In the Holy Trinity, the Monarchy of the Father is that of "First among Equals", directly reflecting correct Orthodox ecclesiology.  Papism on the other hand (whether that of Rome or Constantinople), being a "First without Equals", introduces a subordination-ism that does not exist even within the Holy Trinity itself. 
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 02:44:18 PM by PorphyriosK »
"When you don’t live with Christ, you live in melancholy, in sorrow, in anxiety and in worry. You don’t live properly… The best medicine is to devote yourself to the worship of Christ. Everything is cured. Everything works properly."

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Offline Samn!

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I unironically think that Zizioulas' subordinationist Trinitarianism and quasi-papist ecclesiology is directly inspired by St Sophrony's essay, in that he goes to great lengths to contradict its every premise and conclusion.

Offline Xavier

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Hi Porphyriosk. Nice article.

Catholics in my opinion can agree that the Pope is the First Bishops among equals as far as Episcopal Dignity or Sacerdotal Rank is concerned - for all Bishops equally possess Episcopal Orders. Father and Son are fully equal as we know, but we read the Son freely chooses to subject Himself to His Father in becoming Flesh. We also know Man and Woman are equal, but St. Paul says a Wife is to be subject to her Husband, as Equal to Equal, but with loving subjection to preserve the Unity of the Family. So also we consider Popes, Patriarchs, Archbishops and Bishops to all be equal as far as Orders is concerned, but with a loving subjection of one to the other as regards Authority or Jurisdiction and the Primacy of Love, or Presidency of Charity, of which St. Ignatius of Antioch speaks, in exercising it.

Another article on Ecclesiology by a Greek Orthodox Priest Rev. Fr. Nicholas Afanaseiff. I also like what Father calls "Eucharistic Ecclesiology". Where the Eucharistic Body of Christ is Present, there Christ's Mystical Body is Present as well. So that if the Episcopate preserves the Universal Bond among itself, all Christians from East to West can share fully both in Holy Communion with Christ Our Lord and full communion with brother and sister Christians everywhere.

"Every local church enjoys all the fullness of the Church of God in Christ. The plurality of local churches does not destroy the unity of the Church of God, just as the plurality of eucharistic assemblies does not destroy the unity of the Eucharist in time and space. In the Church, unity and plurality are not only overcome: the one also contains the other. The unity of the Church in its empirical life is manifested by a plurality of local churches, and the plurality of the local churches safeguards the unity of the Church of God in Christ. If the number of local churches is increased or diminished, the Church’s unity and fullness remain unchanged; there will just be a variation in the number of its manifestations in empirical existence. This number of manifestations of the Church makes up its exterior universality and at the same time marks out the boundaries of the Church’s earthly mission. And so eucharistic ecclesiology in no way rejects the universality of the Church but makes a distinction between exterior universality (in so far as the mission is limited), and interior universality, which equals itself always and in all circumstances, because it means that the Church manifests itself everywhere, always in fullness and unity.[22]

Thus the Church’s fullness and unity are not a matter of quantity, but depend on the fullness and unity of the Body of Christ, who is always and everywhere one and unique in His fullness. Christ is always the same, yesterday, today, and forever, to one isolated church and to all local churches as well. Eucharistic ecclesiology teaches that the unity and fullness of the Church attach to the notion of a local church, and not to the fluid and indefinite notion of the Universal Church. The Eucharist is where Christ dwells in the fullness of His Body: the Eucharist could never have been offered in a local church if it had been no more than one part of the Church of God. Where the Eucharist is, there is the fullness of the Church; vice versa, where the fullness of the Church is not, there no Eucharist can be celebrated." http://www.golubinski.ru/ecclesia/primacy.htm
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 01:01:06 PM by Xavier »
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Offline platypus

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Here is the same article with more conventional formatting for those as dyslexic as I am. I had not realized how far back the current crisis with the EP goes, but it is good to see how St. Sophrony refutes the claims by relating the doctrine of the Trinity to our life in the Church.

I unironically think that Zizioulas' subordinationist Trinitarianism and quasi-papist ecclesiology is directly inspired by St Sophrony's essay, in that he goes to great lengths to contradict its every premise and conclusion.

Could you explain what you mean by this? From what I understood of Eucharist, Bishop, Church every bishop is equal and each diocese is fully the church.
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Offline PorphyriosK

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Here is the same article with more conventional formatting for those as dyslexic as I am. I had not realized how far back the current crisis with the EP goes, but it is good to see how St. Sophrony refutes the claims by relating the doctrine of the Trinity to our life in the Church.

Thanks for the link, that's definitely better format.
"When you don’t live with Christ, you live in melancholy, in sorrow, in anxiety and in worry. You don’t live properly… The best medicine is to devote yourself to the worship of Christ. Everything is cured. Everything works properly."

~ St. Porphyrios


"The Church is indeed 'Apostolic'.  But the Church is also 'Patristic'.  And only by being 'Patristic' is the Church continuously 'Apostolic'."

~ Fr. Georges Florovsky

Offline Samn!

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Here is the same article with more conventional formatting for those as dyslexic as I am. I had not realized how far back the current crisis with the EP goes, but it is good to see how St. Sophrony refutes the claims by relating the doctrine of the Trinity to our life in the Church.

I unironically think that Zizioulas' subordinationist Trinitarianism and quasi-papist ecclesiology is directly inspired by St Sophrony's essay, in that he goes to great lengths to contradict its every premise and conclusion.

Could you explain what you mean by this? From what I understood of Eucharist, Bishop, Church every bishop is equal and each diocese is fully the church.

In Zizioulas' Trinitarian theology, he argues that the Son and Spirit are ontologically subordinate to the Father and then he makes the analogy that in the same way, bishops are ontologically subordinate to their primate. In his understanding, bishops are only equal sacramentally, but not "ontologically" or in terms of prerogatives. He goes so far as to say that the synod derives its being from the primate, which is obvious nonsense if you think about it for a second.

Offline PorphyriosK

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Here is the same article with more conventional formatting for those as dyslexic as I am. I had not realized how far back the current crisis with the EP goes, but it is good to see how St. Sophrony refutes the claims by relating the doctrine of the Trinity to our life in the Church.

I unironically think that Zizioulas' subordinationist Trinitarianism and quasi-papist ecclesiology is directly inspired by St Sophrony's essay, in that he goes to great lengths to contradict its every premise and conclusion.

Could you explain what you mean by this? From what I understood of Eucharist, Bishop, Church every bishop is equal and each diocese is fully the church.

In Zizioulas' Trinitarian theology, he argues that the Son and Spirit are ontologically subordinate to the Father and then he makes the analogy that in the same way, bishops are ontologically subordinate to their primate. In his understanding, bishops are only equal sacramentally, but not "ontologically" or in terms of prerogatives. He goes so far as to say that the synod derives its being from the primate, which is obvious nonsense if you think about it for a second.

This seems to imply a primate as being in a next level of holy orders ontologically above that of bishop (a bishop of bishops).  From there it's easy to see how this can be taken even further, where the primates themselves are lower and ontologically subordinate to a "super primate" or a "Primate of primates".
"When you don’t live with Christ, you live in melancholy, in sorrow, in anxiety and in worry. You don’t live properly… The best medicine is to devote yourself to the worship of Christ. Everything is cured. Everything works properly."

~ St. Porphyrios


"The Church is indeed 'Apostolic'.  But the Church is also 'Patristic'.  And only by being 'Patristic' is the Church continuously 'Apostolic'."

~ Fr. Georges Florovsky

Offline platypus

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In Zizioulas' Trinitarian theology, he argues that the Son and Spirit are ontologically subordinate to the Father and then he makes the analogy that in the same way, bishops are ontologically subordinate to their primate. In his understanding, bishops are only equal sacramentally, but not "ontologically" or in terms of prerogatives. He goes so far as to say that the synod derives its being from the primate, which is obvious nonsense if you think about it for a second.

This seems to imply a primate as being in a next level of holy orders ontologically above that of bishop (a bishop of bishops).  From there it's easy to see how this can be taken even further, where the primates themselves are lower and ontologically subordinate to a "super primate" or a "Primate of primates".

That makes sense, thank you guys for the explanation!
 
I stare at the screen, my fingers gliding across the keypad. Uninformed opinions appear in neat rows of text. They are my own. "Click post!" Pride whispers gleefully into my ear. I obey without resistance.
Please disregard everything I say.