Author Topic: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back  (Read 1566 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,061
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« on: November 26, 2019, 06:18:30 PM »
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50493758

From the article:

Quote
"From the grandstand of parliament, we said you can batter your whole family," she tells me in her office in the State Duma, referring to the decision taken two years ago. "This is a really bad law."

Her list of proposals includes restraining orders to keep abusers away from their victims - which have never existed in Russia - anti-sexual-harassment measures and steps to promote gender equality. But she faces fierce opposition and daily hate mail.

More than 180 Russian Orthodox Church and family groups have addressed an open letter to Vladimir Putin asking him to block her law, arguing that it's the work of "foreign agents" and supporters of "radical feminist ideology."
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Mt. 21:31 Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you."

"Our Lord will *never* stop loving us." - Fr. Michael P.

Offline isxodnik

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 794
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2019, 07:01:07 PM »
BBC vs ROC... Interestingly, who wants the good for Russia - the russian Church or the western corporation? Complex/hard issue...
- Вы говорите, они вам угрожали?
- Да, сказали "сюда иди".
- Ну, "иди сюда" - это не угроза.
- "Иди сюда" - нет, а "сюда иди" - очень даже.

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,879
  • Race: Human. Culture: Yes.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2019, 03:45:18 AM »
BBC vs ROC... Interestingly, who wants the good for Russia - the russian Church or the western corporation? Complex/hard issue...

Russia is one thing, the Russian people another, and, it seems, all Russian people quite another.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

~ bookshelf ~ ugly writing ~ jukebox ~

Offline Rhinosaur

  • Homo Vivius
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,114
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodoxy
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2019, 07:17:58 AM »
BBC vs ROC... Interestingly, who wants the good for Russia - the russian Church or the western corporation? Complex/hard issue...

Domestic abuse is wrong.  The ROC should be supporting this law.

Offline isxodnik

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 794
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2019, 07:19:44 AM »
Here's another article on the same topic. Since these are not Pushkin's poems, the online translator should handle satisfactorily.

Quote
The Orthodox community has no illusions that domestic violence exists and poses certain threats to the well-being of the family. But the recipes that are offered in the bill under discussion, cause a lot of doubt. Western experience in combating domestic violence was used to draft the bill. How effective this experience is and how much it actually discourages domestic violence raises very big questions. We know that in the Western socio-political and legal context, the family is undergoing a very serious rethinking, and what we have at the output does not correspond to the goal set by the Russian leadership to strengthen the traditional family.

Therefore, the Russian Church believes that to solve the problem of domestic violence need a broad public discussion is necessary to consider the values of the traditional Russian family, and not those constructs dealing with the notion of the family institution, which, unfortunately, created in some Western States and used to further the elimination of the traditional institution of the family.
- Вы говорите, они вам угрожали?
- Да, сказали "сюда иди".
- Ну, "иди сюда" - это не угроза.
- "Иди сюда" - нет, а "сюда иди" - очень даже.

Offline isxodnik

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 794
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2019, 07:35:03 AM »
Domestic abuse is wrong.  The ROC should be supporting this law.

We have a clear managerial crisis in the ROC. Come to manage! Your determination/resolve will come in handy )

But if seriously - have you read this draft law?
- Вы говорите, они вам угрожали?
- Да, сказали "сюда иди".
- Ну, "иди сюда" - это не угроза.
- "Иди сюда" - нет, а "сюда иди" - очень даже.

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,879
  • Race: Human. Culture: Yes.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2019, 10:44:37 AM »
Here's another article on the same topic. Since these are not Pushkin's poems, the online translator should handle satisfactorily.

Quote
The Orthodox community has no illusions that domestic violence exists and poses certain threats to the well-being of the family. But the recipes that are offered in the bill under discussion, cause a lot of doubt. Western experience in combating domestic violence was used to draft the bill. How effective this experience is and how much it actually discourages domestic violence raises very big questions. We know that in the Western socio-political and legal context, the family is undergoing a very serious rethinking, and what we have at the output does not correspond to the goal set by the Russian leadership to strengthen the traditional family.

Therefore, the Russian Church believes that to solve the problem of domestic violence need a broad public discussion is necessary to consider the values of the traditional Russian family, and not those constructs dealing with the notion of the family institution, which, unfortunately, created in some Western States and used to further the elimination of the traditional institution of the family.

Translation: Until the law is reworded so ineffectually that in no way, shape or manner inconveniences violent men, the Russian Church will keep siding with them and failing Russian women.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

~ bookshelf ~ ugly writing ~ jukebox ~

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,061
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2019, 12:15:44 PM »
Beating anyone is wrong. Beating a woman is wrong. Beating a man is wrong.

I can understand that people get angry sometimes. There must be something better than violence.

https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Mt. 21:31 Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you."

"Our Lord will *never* stop loving us." - Fr. Michael P.

Offline Ainnir

  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,077
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2019, 11:29:00 PM »
Here's another article on the same topic. Since these are not Pushkin's poems, the online translator should handle satisfactorily.

Quote
The Orthodox community has no illusions that domestic violence exists and poses certain threats to the well-being of the family. But the recipes that are offered in the bill under discussion, cause a lot of doubt. Western experience in combating domestic violence was used to draft the bill. How effective this experience is and how much it actually discourages domestic violence raises very big questions. We know that in the Western socio-political and legal context, the family is undergoing a very serious rethinking, and what we have at the output does not correspond to the goal set by the Russian leadership to strengthen the traditional family.

Therefore, the Russian Church believes that to solve the problem of domestic violence need a broad public discussion is necessary to consider the values of the traditional Russian family, and not those constructs dealing with the notion of the family institution, which, unfortunately, created in some Western States and used to further the elimination of the traditional institution of the family.

There is no traditional family in an abusive situation; it's impossible, especially for an Orthodox family.  A traditional Orthodox family has Christ at the center, a servant-leader husband, a respectful wife, and mutual love & submission.  A marriage is a traditional, Orthodox marriage to the degree that those things are present.  Stopping abusive situations does not undermine the traditional family, it separates the wheat from the chaff.  But no, I haven't read the law.  Maybe you could link it for us.  :)
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

Pray for me, a sinner.

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,061
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2019, 11:39:00 PM »
Here's another article on the same topic. Since these are not Pushkin's poems, the online translator should handle satisfactorily.

Quote
The Orthodox community has no illusions that domestic violence exists and poses certain threats to the well-being of the family. But the recipes that are offered in the bill under discussion, cause a lot of doubt. Western experience in combating domestic violence was used to draft the bill. How effective this experience is and how much it actually discourages domestic violence raises very big questions. We know that in the Western socio-political and legal context, the family is undergoing a very serious rethinking, and what we have at the output does not correspond to the goal set by the Russian leadership to strengthen the traditional family.

Therefore, the Russian Church believes that to solve the problem of domestic violence need a broad public discussion is necessary to consider the values of the traditional Russian family, and not those constructs dealing with the notion of the family institution, which, unfortunately, created in some Western States and used to further the elimination of the traditional institution of the family.

There is no traditional family in an abusive situation; it's impossible, especially for an Orthodox family.  A traditional Orthodox family has Christ at the center, a servant-leader husband, a respectful wife, and mutual love & submission.  A marriage is a traditional, Orthodox marriage to the degree that those things are present.  Stopping abusive situations does not undermine the traditional family, it separates the wheat from the chaff.  But no, I haven't read the law.  Maybe you could link it for us.  :)

Amen. Amen.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Mt. 21:31 Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you."

"Our Lord will *never* stop loving us." - Fr. Michael P.

Offline Ainnir

  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,077
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2019, 11:42:03 PM »
^^I should probably caveat that with "and married in the Orthodox Church" before someone says Baptists can have an Orthodox marriage or something.   :P  :D
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

Pray for me, a sinner.

Offline isxodnik

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 794
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2019, 11:52:54 PM »
2016 edition, pdf.

Translation: Until the law is reworded so ineffectually that in no way, shape or manner inconveniences violent men, the Russian Church will keep siding with them and failing Russian women.

Your words are a vivid confirmation that such bills are an instrument of discrimination against men.
- Вы говорите, они вам угрожали?
- Да, сказали "сюда иди".
- Ну, "иди сюда" - это не угроза.
- "Иди сюда" - нет, а "сюда иди" - очень даже.

Offline isxodnik

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 794
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2019, 01:13:47 AM »
There is no traditional family in an abusive situation; it's impossible, especially for an Orthodox family.  A traditional Orthodox family has Christ at the center, a servant-leader husband, a respectful wife, and mutual love & submission.  A marriage is a traditional, Orthodox marriage to the degree that those things are present.  Stopping abusive situations does not undermine the traditional family, it separates the wheat from the chaff.

In a perfect world. In ours, after the fall, there are sorrows that make up half of the cross, without which there is no Christian. One such sorrows may be an imperfect spouse. Bear its used or throw - everyone decides on their own.

And in your words - the justification of the usual human desire to get/arrange/settle better/comfortable. We don't kill children with down syndrome because a sick person is still a person; and a dysfunctional marriage is still a marriage.
- Вы говорите, они вам угрожали?
- Да, сказали "сюда иди".
- Ну, "иди сюда" - это не угроза.
- "Иди сюда" - нет, а "сюда иди" - очень даже.

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,879
  • Race: Human. Culture: Yes.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2019, 05:06:48 AM »
2016 edition, pdf.

Translation: Until the law is reworded so ineffectually that in no way, shape or manner inconveniences violent men, the Russian Church will keep siding with them and failing Russian women.

Your words are a vivid confirmation that such bills are an instrument of discrimination against men.

Your words are a vivid confirmation that feminism is relevant and necessary.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 05:09:35 AM by Arachne »
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

~ bookshelf ~ ugly writing ~ jukebox ~

Offline isxodnik

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 794
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2019, 05:57:08 AM »
First, equality is impossible. There is always a hierarchy. And the divinely established hierarchy, the husband is the head of the wife.

Second, what does equality have to do with it? These are your words, not mine: "violent men", "failing ... women". This is you turned the conversation to the plane of confrontation of the sexes, not me. Thereby testifying about lies and hypocrisy of this law. Domestic violence is not a male monopoly. The promoters of the law on family violence blatantly lie, many times overstating the statistics of male domestic violence, and not a word about female violence - but it exists, physical and psychological, and there is a lot of it, especially with regard to children - the most disenfranchised and defenseless. You don't care about fighting violence, you care about discrimination against men and domination and impunity for women. I repeat, you said it, not me.
- Вы говорите, они вам угрожали?
- Да, сказали "сюда иди".
- Ну, "иди сюда" - это не угроза.
- "Иди сюда" - нет, а "сюда иди" - очень даже.

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Technical Director
  • Taxiarches
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,759
  • OCNet Systems and Network Operations
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2019, 06:17:48 AM »
2016 edition, pdf.

Translation: Until the law is reworded so ineffectually that in no way, shape or manner inconveniences violent men, the Russian Church will keep siding with them and failing Russian women.

Your words are a vivid confirmation that such bills are an instrument of discrimination against men.

Your words are a vivid confirmation that feminism is relevant and necessary.

Indeed.  Russia does have a problem with domestic abuse, and it has had it for several centuries; indeed I took exception to the Dromostroi, which some members of this forum like, because it appears to endorse the corporal punishment of wives and female domestic servants.  This problem appears to be specific to some Russian regions and is proportionate to alcohol consumption and inversely proportionate to ambient temperature.  So in the brutal Moscow winter, or in the misery of the great muds in the Spring and Fall, or in miserable towns further afield, such as Perm, Kazan, Archangelsk, and various unpleasant Siberian cities, people buy vodka in excess quantities and then beat their wives or alternately misbehave in other ways (for example, the Gopniks).  As one moves towards the warm south, or to St. Petersburg and Karelia, this seems to be less of a problem, but in Belarus, which is a very cold country, the problem also exists.  But I have not heard of difficulties of this magnitude in Georgia, Armenia, or Ossetia and Abkhazia, or in Sevastopol, except among young recruits to the military.

During the last years of the Soviet Union, there were drunk tanks which featured chairs with crude physical restraints, which were operated as compulsory medical facilities rather than as judicial punishments.  You can see one of them in a 1990-vintage special of the American TV program COPS.

~

I would also note that Canada seems to have a problem with very severe alcohol consumption, and the Mounties, at least a few years ago, regularly used a device called a “Hog tie” to restrain uncooperative drunks and also as a means of lifting them into the back seat of their Ford Crown Victorias, which most US police departments have avoided (especially carrying arrestees using the hog tie; I believe the California Highway Patrol uses it, but only to secure uncooperative inmates in the backseat of its cruisers, which very frequently lack a prisoner cage).  In Edmonton, the downtown police historically patrolled in large North American vans, by Ford, Chevy or Dodge, stopping to arrest drunks and then slowly filling the prisoner compartment, a sort of hybrid between a patrol car and a paddy wagon.

In Alaska, alcohol is known to cause severe devastation in many isolated rural communities, some of which consist of Native Alaskans and others of which are mixed race or populated mainly by white settlers.  These towns are often too small to have a police officer stationed in them, so recently the Alaska State Troopers have been deputizing Auxilliary Police similiar to PCSOs in Britain, to keep the peace and enforce the local laws which usually prohibit alcohol outright.

So there does seem to be a correlation between cold climates and alcohol use, due to the increase in body temperature alcohol produces, and there is also a direct causal link well known to police and criminologists between alcohol consumption and domestic violence. 
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 06:31:15 AM by Alpha60 »

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline isxodnik

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 794
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2019, 06:39:24 AM »
And third, I was responding to this text of yours:

"When you're used to privilege, equality feels like discrimination. You'll get over it."
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 06:44:46 AM by isxodnik »
- Вы говорите, они вам угрожали?
- Да, сказали "сюда иди".
- Ну, "иди сюда" - это не угроза.
- "Иди сюда" - нет, а "сюда иди" - очень даже.

Offline isxodnik

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 794
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2019, 09:20:25 AM »
Slander destroys a man. The first slanderer is the devil. I have a suspicion - not a certainty, a suspicion - that the repetition of slander (which is undoubtedly the image of Russia created in the West) against any peoples also harms the soul of man. At the same time, I understand the intense brainwashing you undergo every day. And an American who can show interest in Russia and say something good about it already deserves some respect. Unfortunately, Alpha, I can't help you. But I can give you a link to the blog of an American who left the United States for Russia precisely for reasons of normal family life. This person has education and life experience, he has something to say, and he does it in a balanced way. Perhaps, after reading his stories, you will be more objective.
- Вы говорите, они вам угрожали?
- Да, сказали "сюда иди".
- Ну, "иди сюда" - это не угроза.
- "Иди сюда" - нет, а "сюда иди" - очень даже.

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,879
  • Race: Human. Culture: Yes.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2019, 10:18:31 AM »
Second, what does equality have to do with it? These are your words, not mine: "violent men", "failing ... women". This is you turned the conversation to the plane of confrontation of the sexes, not me. Thereby testifying about lies and hypocrisy of this law. Domestic violence is not a male monopoly. The promoters of the law on family violence blatantly lie, many times overstating the statistics of male domestic violence, and not a word about female violence - but it exists, physical and psychological, and there is a lot of it, especially with regard to children - the most disenfranchised and defenseless. You don't care about fighting violence, you care about discrimination against men and domination and impunity for women. I repeat, you said it, not me.

The bill aims to create legal protection for women who are victims of domestic violence. Unless all those victims are in lesbian relationships, the perpetrators of said violence are their male partners.

If Russia has a problem of male victims of domestic violence, I'm sure there must be plenty of advocates for their rights who can showcase the evidence and make the law cover those as well.

Allowing women to move away from an abusive partner is not discriminating against men, because abuse towards women is not a right or prerogative of men, but a literal abuse of such.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

~ bookshelf ~ ugly writing ~ jukebox ~

Offline Eamonomae

  • The Prodigal Son, except I do it at least twice a week
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,206
  • Saint Thomas, pray for us.
  • Faith: Unsure Liturgical Christian
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2019, 11:12:31 AM »
This is undoubtedly a "traditional" view that needs to be abolished, because the reason why this view existed was well-intentioned (the idea that the government should not be managing family affairs), but I think we have recognized that there are men who shouldn't be managing household affairs, and that women are put in situations where they cannot do anything about it or resist, and the excuse of "keep the government out of family" shouldn't be an excuse to allow those sons of perdition have the power they do.

The United States in its legal system, historically, had similar logic and justification such that women couldn't sue their husbands for domestic abuse, because among other things, the courts held that a father had the legal authority to discipline children and his wife and the government shouldn't be involved. However, that changed when people began to become aware of how widespread and serious of an issue domestic abuse was.

Offline Eamonomae

  • The Prodigal Son, except I do it at least twice a week
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,206
  • Saint Thomas, pray for us.
  • Faith: Unsure Liturgical Christian
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2019, 11:15:05 AM »
First, equality is impossible. There is always a hierarchy. And the divinely established hierarchy, the husband is the head of the wife.

Second, what does equality have to do with it? These are your words, not mine: "violent men", "failing ... women". This is you turned the conversation to the plane of confrontation of the sexes, not me. Thereby testifying about lies and hypocrisy of this law. Domestic violence is not a male monopoly. The promoters of the law on family violence blatantly lie, many times overstating the statistics of male domestic violence, and not a word about female violence - but it exists, physical and psychological, and there is a lot of it, especially with regard to children - the most disenfranchised and defenseless. You don't care about fighting violence, you care about discrimination against men and domination and impunity for women. I repeat, you said it, not me.

It's a physiological fact that men tend to be physically stronger and more aggressive than women, so more often than not, the man will be the physically stronger one in these relationships.
Also, two wrongs don't make a right. You can't justify domestic abuse committed by men on the grounds that you aren't dealing with domestic abuse committed by women.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,072
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2019, 11:28:29 AM »
You can't justify domestic abuse committed by men on the grounds that you aren't dealing with domestic abuse committed by women.

You can’t justify it at all.  It’s abominable. 

But I think one can be suspicious about how one-sided approaches to social problems are not infrequently advocated in our current climate in order to advance a particular agenda.
OCnet is KGB.
I hail Mor Ephrem as our Secretary General.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline sestir

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 234
    • Weihos Bokos
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: independent
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2019, 12:45:22 PM »
Stopping abusive situations does not undermine the traditional family, [...]

I'm afraid it does. In Sweden, women seems to prefer boyfriends who are likely to beat them, so that the traditional family will not even form. It doesn't make all that much sense to table laws against character traits which are selected in breeding. Perhaps such laws even have adverse effects so that pretty soon all male partners or whatshamacallem will torture their female partners.

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,061
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2019, 01:16:47 PM »
Are you kidding, Sestir?
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Mt. 21:31 Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you."

"Our Lord will *never* stop loving us." - Fr. Michael P.

Offline sestir

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 234
    • Weihos Bokos
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: independent
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2019, 02:11:46 PM »
Are you kidding, Sestir?

I prefer to just read threads like these and stay quiet. And I really don't want to disagree with you too often as I well remember that you were the first person who greeted me welcome to this forum.

But when governments and media of the Western World try to force-feed their failed policies to hitherto relatively undamaged societies, morale, ethics and my love for other people demand that I say a few words.

Offline Ainnir

  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,077
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2019, 02:16:28 PM »
You can't justify domestic abuse committed by men on the grounds that you aren't dealing with domestic abuse committed by women.

You can’t justify it at all.  It’s abominable. 

But I think one can be suspicious about how one-sided approaches to social problems are not infrequently advocated in our current climate in order to advance a particular agenda.
Truth.  The laws should protect everyone to the same degree.
For what it’s worth, I read Arachne’s “violent men” as “men who choose to be violent,” not as a blanket statement.   There are women who choose to be violent, too.

I’ll have to get back to the rest later.  Maybe.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

Pray for me, a sinner.

Offline platypus

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 709
  • The West knows best
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2019, 03:01:47 PM »
I wonder exactly what the proposed law would do. It is understandable that if Russia wants to stop domestic violence, they’d be skeptical of anything that reeks of our own Duluth model stupidity. But I’m in no position to evaluate the pros and cons of a law I can’t read, and I’m also pretty clueless as to what Russia is like.

I hope they are able to find a good solution and curb domestic violence, just as I hope that my own country can. Lord have mercy!
I stare at the screen, my fingers gliding across the keypad. Uninformed opinions appear in neat rows of text. They are my own. "Click post!" Pride whispers gleefully into my ear. I obey without resistance.
Please disregard everything I say.

Offline isxodnik

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 794
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2019, 05:30:10 PM »
You can’t justify it at all.  It’s abominable. 

But I think one can be suspicious about how one-sided approaches to social problems are not infrequently advocated in our current climate in order to advance a particular agenda.

At least someone understands me.
- Вы говорите, они вам угрожали?
- Да, сказали "сюда иди".
- Ну, "иди сюда" - это не угроза.
- "Иди сюда" - нет, а "сюда иди" - очень даже.

Offline Ainnir

  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,077
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2019, 10:30:01 AM »
Maybe I'm guilty of focusing too much on single portions of some of the posts here and not giving equal attention to the whole.  Some of those comments and phrases sound like so much, "Who cares?" and "Why bother protecting victims?" and "Marriage is more important than safety" and "Men really are more valuable than women."  It's demoralizing.  It does not sound like, "Men should be equally protected under these laws."  Being a woman, I do tend to think of things from my perspective.  Not because it's more important, but because it's my frame of reference.  I don't know what it's like to be a man.  However, when I'm thinking of these laws, it is under the assumption that they would be unbiased and applied sensibly.  Restraining orders, particularly...that has a lot more applications than just male on female violence.  What I don't understand is what's done now over there when someone is persistently violent toward a victim?  Nothing?  Vigilantism?  It's really hard to see any other, better options than protection laws.  Rejecting that solution feels devaluing.

I'm standing by my "it's not a traditional, Orthodox marriage" assertion, though.  I'm not saying it's not a marriage in the sense that binding two into one didn't happen, or that leaving wouldn't be a divorce.  It is a marriage in that sense, and the divorce is a real divorce, and should be treated as a real divorce.  It is the lesser of two evils, in my opinion, especially if you are dealing with stories like in the article, where it's more a hostage situation than a marriage.  There needs to be a supported and protected way out, should the victim want it.  Some choose to stay and manage their situation with eyes wide open, and that should be respected, too.  What it is not, though, is traditional or Orthodox.  If a husband or wife is abusing their spouse, they've already unrepentantly broken their vows and violated the will of God, and you are no longer helping each other struggle toward salvation.  The abuser has made a mockery of marriage.

I wonder exactly what the proposed law would do. It is understandable that if Russia wants to stop domestic violence, they’d be skeptical of anything that reeks of our own Duluth model stupidity.
That's a fair criticism.  Maybe it's better than nothing, but it does effectively gaslight half the population.  Not my favorite kind of irony.  :-\  We definitely need work.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

Pray for me, a sinner.

Offline Alpo2

  • The artist formerly known as Alpo
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Faith: Fenno-Ugric Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: True Faith™
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2019, 02:55:37 AM »
Domestic abuse is wrong.  The ROC should be supporting this law.

We have a clear managerial crisis in the ROC. Come to manage! Your determination/resolve will come in handy )

But if seriously - have you read this draft law?

Was there particularly something objectionable about it?

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Technical Director
  • Taxiarches
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,759
  • OCNet Systems and Network Operations
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2019, 12:15:29 PM »
Beating anyone is wrong. Beating a woman is wrong. Beating a man is wrong.

I can understand that people get angry sometimes. There must be something better than violence.

I agree entirely.  I myself like the Mr. Fred Rogers approach.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,061
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Russian domestic violence: Women fight back
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2019, 12:20:09 PM »
Thank you.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Mt. 21:31 Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you."

"Our Lord will *never* stop loving us." - Fr. Michael P.