Author Topic: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?  (Read 8884 times)

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Offline Wandile

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #270 on: November 08, 2019, 11:34:30 AM »
Oh I know about this. He doesn’t deny a miracle occurred. He disputes what kind of miracle occurred as he seems to think that instead of multiple loaves being made from 5 he simply asserts that the loaves never ran out despite sharing.

Brother, I pray you will wake up from this denial.
First and foremost please do not speak down to me. Secondly stop assuming that anyone who doesn’t see the world you do is in denial or some sort. We are two different people. We can really see things differently without any mental issues posed.

Back to the point, I’m not in denial. I don’t think he is right. But he clearly states in quotes that he doesn’t think the miracle was multiplication but rather sharing that didn’t finish (the bread didn’t run out). It’s a different kind. Wrong but still a miracle. I’m the last person to defend Pope Francis and far from a fan of his so please don’t impose your assumptions on me. Just read his own quotes it’s clear.

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Francis, like his predecessors, are all devotees of the same heretic theologians like Teihard de Chardin, Karl Rahner, etc and all follow their patterns of thinking by constantly muddying the clear and simple truths of the gospels with obfuscations and strange intellectualizations.
Is this not what I said a few posts ago?

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They do not hold the Apostolic Faith.
Neither have I said they do. I said they are modernists.

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I know you are devoted to your Catholic faith, but there's no reason to defend this.
I’m not. Please stop saying I am. Pope Francis is the worst thing that’s happened to the Catholic Church.

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I don't think you are doing it in bad faith, but they don't deserve to be excused on the basis of vague technicalities.
The thing about issuing judgement is you need grounds. Vagueness is not a ground.  It just isn’t... you can’t say he is a heretic because he isambiguous and thus lost his papacy. You need more concrete grounds than that.

If you issue hasty judgements you will end up with another mistaken case of Pope Honorius (condemning a person for a crime they aren’t guilty of).
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 11:44:55 AM by Wandile »
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Offline Gloria Tibi Trinitas

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #271 on: November 08, 2019, 11:43:47 AM »
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has prayed in Synagogues and Mosques
Well.. other popes have done that.
Exactly.

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As long as it was not participating in their worship.

More obfuscating.  They followed the lead of the imams leading the prayers.  They even removed their shoes as if on holy ground.  What am I missing?

Pope John Paul II kissed a Quran. At the very best interpretation this is honoring the writings of a heretic. At worst, this is participating in heathen worship. According to the Lateran Council, Muslims are infidels to the Catholic faith. Kissing a Quran is an act of apostasy.

 I don’t think it’s an act of apostasy but I do think he sinned there as many catholic do. Apostasy is abandoning the Christian Faith altogether which is not what he did.

That's not what St. Thomas said as I posted above... He said the outward act of apostasy is sufficient. (His example: specifically worshipping at the tomb of Mohammed, something quite equivalent to kissing a Quran)
Well worshiping is different to revering. St John Paul II revered the Quran.

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Do you think that when Aaron participated in the worship of the golden calf he wasn't committing apostasy?
Point above.

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Also, if the sin ISN'T apostasy, which sin is it?
Scandal.

The Quran denies the deity of Jesus Christ. Revering the Quran = outward sign of apostasy. No one said he "worshipped" the Quran (which Muslims don't do anyway), but that he venerated something that is blasphemous and contrary to faith.

Also, what about my point about the early Christians worshipping idols when they didn't reject their inward faith? It was still apostasy. Read any of the anti-donatist writings. 


Offline Wandile

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #272 on: November 08, 2019, 11:47:35 AM »
Quote
has prayed in Synagogues and Mosques
Well.. other popes have done that.
Exactly.

Quote
As long as it was not participating in their worship.

More obfuscating.  They followed the lead of the imams leading the prayers.  They even removed their shoes as if on holy ground.  What am I missing?

Pope John Paul II kissed a Quran. At the very best interpretation this is honoring the writings of a heretic. At worst, this is participating in heathen worship. According to the Lateran Council, Muslims are infidels to the Catholic faith. Kissing a Quran is an act of apostasy.

 I don’t think it’s an act of apostasy but I do think he sinned there as many catholic do. Apostasy is abandoning the Christian Faith altogether which is not what he did.

That's not what St. Thomas said as I posted above... He said the outward act of apostasy is sufficient. (His example: specifically worshipping at the tomb of Mohammed, something quite equivalent to kissing a Quran)
Well worshiping is different to revering. St John Paul II revered the Quran.

Quote
Do you think that when Aaron participated in the worship of the golden calf he wasn't committing apostasy?
Point above.

Quote
Also, if the sin ISN'T apostasy, which sin is it?
Scandal.

The Quran denies the deity of Jesus Christ. Revering the Quran = outward sign of apostasy.
It just doesn’t. It’s not abandoning the Christian Faith. Many things are revered in everyday life whether correct or not. His reverence caused scandal but NOT apostasy.

That’s why canon law says if you are to pray with non Catholics or be in events with them or do things with them  it must be in a way that doesn’t cause scandal through outward relativism. Doing such as St John Paul II in showing reverence to a Muslim holy book promoted outward relativism and caused scandal. Which is a different sin to apostasy.

To worship would constitute that. You can’t force squares into triangles.

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No one said he "worshipped" the Quran (which Muslims don't do anyway), but that he venerated something that is blasphemous and contrary to faith.
Literally every single example you gave was one of worship.

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Also, what about my point about the early Christians worshipping idols when they didn't reject their inward faith? It was still apostasy. Read any of the anti-donatist writings.

Worship is the key word. Worship...
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 11:53:46 AM by Wandile »
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Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #273 on: November 08, 2019, 12:10:41 PM »
Oh I know about this. He doesn’t deny a miracle occurred. He disputes what kind of miracle occurred as he seems to think that instead of multiple loaves being made from 5 he simply asserts that the loaves never ran out despite sharing.

Brother, I pray you will wake up from this denial.
I’m not in denial. I don’t think he is right. But he clearly states in quotes that he doesn’t think the miracle was multiplication but rather sharing that didn’t finish (the bread didn’t run out). It’s a different kind. Wrong but still a miracle. I’m the last person to defend Pope Francis and far from a fan of his so please don’t impose your assumptions on me. Just read his own quotes it’s clear.

Quote
Francis, like his predecessors, are all devotees of the same heretic theologians like Teihard de Chardin, Karl Rahner, etc and all follow their patterns of thinking by constantly muddying the clear and simple truths of the gospels with obfuscations and strange intellectualizations.
Is this not what I said a few posts ago?

Quote
They do not hold the Apostolic Faith.
Neither have I said they do. I said they are modernists.

Quote
I know you are devoted to your Catholic faith, but there's no reason to defend this.
I’m not. Please stop saying I am. Pope Francis is the worst thing that’s happened to the Catholic Church.

Ok thank you for clarifying and sorry for misunderstanding your intentions.  Hopefully a process of judgement by your bishops can somehow be started.  Although I still haven't seen how they'd ever be allowed canonically to assemble against him.  Maybe they're just waiting for him to retire or to pass on.  If they are, unfortunately they are also allowing him to continually promote like-minded clerics into the college of cardinals and for him to secure his heir.   
"When you don’t live with Christ, you live in melancholy, in sorrow, in anxiety and in worry. You don’t live properly… The best medicine is to devote yourself to the worship of Christ. Everything is cured. Everything works properly."

~ St. Porphyrios


"The Church is indeed 'Apostolic'.  But the Church is also 'Patristic'.  And only by being 'Patristic' is the Church continuously 'Apostolic'."

~ Fr. Georges Florovsky

Offline Wandile

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #274 on: November 08, 2019, 12:23:15 PM »
Oh I know about this. He doesn’t deny a miracle occurred. He disputes what kind of miracle occurred as he seems to think that instead of multiple loaves being made from 5 he simply asserts that the loaves never ran out despite sharing.

Brother, I pray you will wake up from this denial.
I’m not in denial. I don’t think he is right. But he clearly states in quotes that he doesn’t think the miracle was multiplication but rather sharing that didn’t finish (the bread didn’t run out). It’s a different kind. Wrong but still a miracle. I’m the last person to defend Pope Francis and far from a fan of his so please don’t impose your assumptions on me. Just read his own quotes it’s clear.

Quote
Francis, like his predecessors, are all devotees of the same heretic theologians like Teihard de Chardin, Karl Rahner, etc and all follow their patterns of thinking by constantly muddying the clear and simple truths of the gospels with obfuscations and strange intellectualizations.
Is this not what I said a few posts ago?

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They do not hold the Apostolic Faith.
Neither have I said they do. I said they are modernists.

Quote
I know you are devoted to your Catholic faith, but there's no reason to defend this.
I’m not. Please stop saying I am. Pope Francis is the worst thing that’s happened to the Catholic Church.

Ok thank you for clarifying and sorry for misunderstanding your intentions.  Hopefully a process of judgement by your bishops can somehow be started.
There won’t be any such. You can’t judge a pope. Only after his death can you judge him but even that is frowned upon in the Catholic Church (regardless of who it is). Maybe because of how scandalous his papacy has been it may just occur and I hope it does. It’s more likely however that his successors will just reverse everything he has done to the point where his papacy is just a footnote in history.

Pope Francis would need to do something or say something so outrageous and not just that, be obstinate in it despite correction for him to be shown to have fallen from his chair. Clarity, as you know, is not something modernists are fans of so I doubt that will happen either.

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Although I still haven't seen how they'd ever be allowed canonically to assemble against him
Exactly. You can’t judge a pope because to judge somebody you need to have authority over them but nobody except God has authority over the pope. So only God can judge a pope. The most we can do is show him to be a heretic and thus judged by God. Sadly like I said above, Pope Francis is not the type to be brazen and explicit about his thoughts and teachings so an imperfect council cannot be called.m for this purpose.

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Maybe they're just waiting for him to retire or to pass on.
You just ignore him and live your Catholic life and wait for a future pope and bishops to deal with his papacy.

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If they are, unfortunately they are also allowing him to continually promote like-minded clerics into the college of cardinals and for him to secure his heir.   
Pope Francis and his style of papacy isn’t even popular amongst this current college that he has appointed. That’s why he hasn’t had a meeting with his college in years but just skips the meeting and goes straight to the consistory. His appointments will actually result in a split conclave rather than securing another pope in his make up.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 12:31:24 PM by Wandile »
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Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #275 on: November 08, 2019, 12:38:41 PM »
Quote
The Quran denies the deity of Jesus Christ. Revering the Quran = outward sign of apostasy.
It just doesn’t. It’s not abandoning the Christian Faith.

On the topic of pan-religious gatherings, this is from Pius XI's Mortalium Animos:

"For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little. turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion."

So even by merely supporting and promoting those who hold syncretic views of religion, one abandons the Christian faith (apostasy).  The act of kissing the Quran or praying in Mosques would seem to go beyond even that and directly give a sense of legitmacy and support to a false religion.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 12:39:49 PM by PorphyriosK »
"When you don’t live with Christ, you live in melancholy, in sorrow, in anxiety and in worry. You don’t live properly… The best medicine is to devote yourself to the worship of Christ. Everything is cured. Everything works properly."

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"The Church is indeed 'Apostolic'.  But the Church is also 'Patristic'.  And only by being 'Patristic' is the Church continuously 'Apostolic'."

~ Fr. Georges Florovsky

Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #276 on: November 08, 2019, 12:49:27 PM »
Pope Francis and his style of papacy isn’t even popular amongst this current college that he has appointed. That’s why he hasn’t had a meeting with his college in years but just skips the meeting and goes straight to the consistory. His appointments will actually result in a split conclave rather than securing another pope in his make up.

That's good news and thanks for your analysis.
"When you don’t live with Christ, you live in melancholy, in sorrow, in anxiety and in worry. You don’t live properly… The best medicine is to devote yourself to the worship of Christ. Everything is cured. Everything works properly."

~ St. Porphyrios


"The Church is indeed 'Apostolic'.  But the Church is also 'Patristic'.  And only by being 'Patristic' is the Church continuously 'Apostolic'."

~ Fr. Georges Florovsky

Offline Wandile

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #277 on: November 08, 2019, 01:17:59 PM »
Quote
The Quran denies the deity of Jesus Christ. Revering the Quran = outward sign of apostasy.
It just doesn’t. It’s not abandoning the Christian Faith.

On the topic of pan-religious gatherings, this is from Pius XI's Mortalium Animos:

"For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little. turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion."

So even by merely supporting and promoting those who hold syncretic views of religion, one abandons the Christian faith (apostasy).  The act of kissing the Quran or praying in Mosques would seem to go beyond even that and directly give a sense of legitmacy and support to a false religion.

1. The pope wasn’t supporting relativism
2. He did not attempt to realize relativism of relativistic theories.
3. Pope John Paul II and his CDF were very much against relativism (The document about the use of the phrase “sister churches” was from his CDF)  and they did not consider what the pope did to be relativism. I think he made a mistake which could lead to that through scandal but he did not actually promote relativism himself even in that act but showed respect to a holy book of Islam which isn’t relativism in and of itself. This is why his sin is scandal.
4. A papal encyclical, more often than not, is not binding doctrine but the reflections of a pope on some matter. It’s a teaching document not in the form of binding decrees but more akin to a long homily.

Relativism means no objective truth or validity of all opinions. Showing respect or reverence does not constitute this.

Lastly, Canon law has much changed since then. In other words the church changed its opinion on this for the most part (e.g. the church participated in similar gatherings as these mentioned but isn’t part of the world council of churches)

I could provide a longer answer but suffice to say that’s it.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 01:28:25 PM by Wandile »
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #278 on: November 08, 2019, 01:50:03 PM »
At this point I wish to bow out of this thread.

God bless you all.
Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for us. Amen

Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #279 on: November 08, 2019, 04:22:12 PM »

4. A papal encyclical, more often than not, is not binding doctrine but the reflections of a pope on some matter. It’s a teaching document not in the form of binding decrees but more akin to a long homily.

Wandile, carefully consider your comment quoted above, and then read your response to me earlier about Pius IX:

Pope Pius IX himself (the pope of Vatican I) said if a future pope teaches error we should not follow him. The doctored and theologians prior to the council all wrote various manuals addressing the issue of a heretical pope and what the church must do like St Robert Bellarmine, Suarez etc

These are not official Catholic teaching either, but speculative theological opinion.
The pope of the council was speculating about a decree concerning himself? LOL if this is not a desperate cry of an argument on its last legs.

So when you provide me with a quote from Pius IX that he wrote in a private letter, it's significant and I should take it seriously.  But when I provide you with a quote from Pius XI in a formal document, it's insignificant and not relevant to the discussion?  Can you see the contradiction?  I'm not mad at all, but you did laugh and mock me above for saying the Pius IX quote was opinion and not official teaching, but when I quote from a papal document you say the exact same thing: opinion and not official teaching.  Sounds like papal statements are important when you deem that they are, and unimportant when they're inconvenient to your argument. 

I sincerely mean no disrespect in pointing that out, and I don't believe it's your fault at all.  It's the papacy's fault for forcing people into all these contradictions.
 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 04:24:59 PM by PorphyriosK »
"When you don’t live with Christ, you live in melancholy, in sorrow, in anxiety and in worry. You don’t live properly… The best medicine is to devote yourself to the worship of Christ. Everything is cured. Everything works properly."

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"The Church is indeed 'Apostolic'.  But the Church is also 'Patristic'.  And only by being 'Patristic' is the Church continuously 'Apostolic'."

~ Fr. Georges Florovsky

Offline Eamonomae

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #280 on: November 08, 2019, 04:36:45 PM »
Quote
has prayed in Synagogues and Mosques
Well.. other popes have done that.
Exactly.

Quote
As long as it was not participating in their worship.

More obfuscating.  They followed the lead of the imams leading the prayers.  They even removed their shoes as if on holy ground.  What am I missing?

Pope John Paul II kissed a Quran. At the very best interpretation this is honoring the writings of a heretic. At worst, this is participating in heathen worship. According to the Lateran Council, Muslims are infidels to the Catholic faith. Kissing a Quran is an act of apostasy.

 I don’t think it’s an act of apostasy but I do think he sinned there as many catholic do. Apostasy is abandoning the Christian Faith altogether which is not what he did.

That's not what St. Thomas said as I posted above... He said the outward act of apostasy is sufficient. (His example: specifically worshipping at the tomb of Mohammed, something quite equivalent to kissing a Quran)
Well worshiping is different to revering. St John Paul II revered the Quran.

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Do you think that when Aaron participated in the worship of the golden calf he wasn't committing apostasy?
Point above.

Quote
Also, if the sin ISN'T apostasy, which sin is it?
Scandal.

But Muslims don't worship Muhammad, nor do they pray to Muhammad at his tomb. They revere him.

Even then,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR9HOJNEYvI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpzPVrTfO1I

Now, your next excuse is going to be "Well, it's okay to pray at a Mosque or at the Tomb of Muhammad, as long as you pray to God."

Not only is this not true,

Because Canon 1258 of the Code of Canon Law of 1917 says this:

"It is unlawful for the faithful to assist in any active manner, or to take part in the sacred services of non-Catholics.’"

Which Fr. Szal, a theologian from the mid 20th century, said this in his commentary on this Canon:

"All types of active religious communication with non-Catholics are gravely illicit. Such assistance is intrinsically and gravely evil for a) if the worship is non-Catholic in form (as in the Mohammedan ablutions, or in the eating of the Jewish paschal lamb), it expresses a belief in a false creed symbolized in the ceremony, and b) if the worship is Catholic in form but is undertaken under the auspices of a non-Catholic body (as in the celebration of Mass by a schismatic priest), it expresses either faith in a false religious body or rebellion against the true Church. The obligation to avoid exposing oneself to the danger of perversion and to prevent giving scandal to others proceeds from the natural divine law. The positive divine law on the other hand forbids one to perform such an action which would be tantamount to at least an external denial of faith and a quasi-profession of a false sect. This prohibition is expressed in the words of our Lord: ‘He that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven.’ [Matthew 10:33, Luke 12:9]"


But even if it were true (that all that matters is that you pray to the right God), you put yourself in a deadlock because of Lumen Gentium 126:
"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind."

So tell me what Thomas Aquinas could have possibly meant.

EDIT: I know you've said you will bow out, so this will be the last thing I'll respond to you on.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 04:47:36 PM by Eamonomae »
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #281 on: November 08, 2019, 04:50:37 PM »
I said I’m done guys.

Code of canon law of 1917 has been replaced with the current code. Quoting it is as useful as quoting canons from the first century.

God bless you all.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 04:51:45 PM by Wandile »
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Offline Eamonomae

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #282 on: November 08, 2019, 04:55:46 PM »
I said I’m done guys.

Code of canon law of 1917 has been replaced with the current code. Quoting it is as useful as quoting canons from the first century.

God bless you all.

Okay. I apologize for posting that last comment; I missed the comment where you said you were bowing out.
"Feast on wine or fast on water
And your honor shall stand sure,
God Almighty's son and daughter
He the valiant, she the pure;
If an angel out of heaven
Brings you other things to drink,
Thank him for his kind attention,
Go and pour them down the sink."

-G.K. Chesterton

Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #283 on: November 08, 2019, 04:58:14 PM »
I also apologize for continuing to beat the dead horse that is this thread.  Bowing out too.  Take care guys.
"When you don’t live with Christ, you live in melancholy, in sorrow, in anxiety and in worry. You don’t live properly… The best medicine is to devote yourself to the worship of Christ. Everything is cured. Everything works properly."

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"The Church is indeed 'Apostolic'.  But the Church is also 'Patristic'.  And only by being 'Patristic' is the Church continuously 'Apostolic'."

~ Fr. Georges Florovsky

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #284 on: November 08, 2019, 09:27:01 PM »
Code of canon law of 1917 has been replaced with the current code. Quoting it is as useful as quoting canons from the first century.

And this is the problem with Roman Catholicism.
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

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Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline Apotheoun

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« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 09:45:55 PM by Apotheoun »
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #286 on: November 08, 2019, 10:45:45 PM »
OK ~ Let's all have a large brandy ~ and ~ leave this thread without cleaning the table ```
Իմաստութիւն Հոր Յիսուս՝ տո՝ւր մեզ իաստուփին՝ զբարիս խորհել եւ խոսել եւ գործել առաջի Քո յամենայն ժամ : եւ ի չար խորհրդոց ի բանից եւ ի գործոց   փրկեա  զմեզ՝ ամէն:
Jesus, Wisdom of the Father, give us wisdom, to think, speak and do what is Good before you at all times. And save us from evil thoughts, words and deed, amen.

Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #287 on: November 08, 2019, 11:10:32 PM »
OK ~ Let's all have a large brandy ~ and ~ leave this thread without cleaning the table ```

"When you don’t live with Christ, you live in melancholy, in sorrow, in anxiety and in worry. You don’t live properly… The best medicine is to devote yourself to the worship of Christ. Everything is cured. Everything works properly."

~ St. Porphyrios


"The Church is indeed 'Apostolic'.  But the Church is also 'Patristic'.  And only by being 'Patristic' is the Church continuously 'Apostolic'."

~ Fr. Georges Florovsky

Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #288 on: November 09, 2019, 02:01:04 PM »
This thread is quite pointless, because the thesis it proposes is undermined by events happening in the present day.
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #289 on: November 09, 2019, 03:37:40 PM »
This thread is quite pointless, because the thesis it proposes is undermined by events happening in the present day.

In case you don't have time to read the whole thread, what we learned is that according to Catholic canon law, no apostasy has actually occurred, only errors in judgement and scandal.  The words and actions of Pope Francis can only be judged after his death by a succeeding Pope, if that Pope so chooses.
 
"When you don’t live with Christ, you live in melancholy, in sorrow, in anxiety and in worry. You don’t live properly… The best medicine is to devote yourself to the worship of Christ. Everything is cured. Everything works properly."

~ St. Porphyrios


"The Church is indeed 'Apostolic'.  But the Church is also 'Patristic'.  And only by being 'Patristic' is the Church continuously 'Apostolic'."

~ Fr. Georges Florovsky

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #290 on: November 09, 2019, 03:43:27 PM »
This thread is quite pointless, because the thesis it proposes is undermined by events happening in the present day.

As usual, here is one of the few people with any sense left here.
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #291 on: November 09, 2019, 04:42:50 PM »
This thread is quite pointless, because the thesis it proposes is undermined by events happening in the present day.
In case you don't have time to read the whole thread, what we learned is that according to Catholic canon law, no apostasy has actually occurred, only errors in judgement and scandal.  The words and actions of Pope Francis can only be judged after his death by a succeeding Pope, if that Pope so chooses.
That is a convenient apologetic tool, but it is not a rational one.  Moreover, that "apologetic tool" makes the proposed thesis utterly vacuous, because the only person who can judge whether there have been any apostate popes is the person currently holding the office of pope.  What if the current holder is in fact an apostate?

The proposed thesis is utter drivel.



« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 04:43:37 PM by Apotheoun »
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #292 on: November 09, 2019, 05:47:57 PM »
This thread is quite pointless, because the thesis it proposes is undermined by events happening in the present day.
In case you don't have time to read the whole thread, what we learned is that according to Catholic canon law, no apostasy has actually occurred, only errors in judgement and scandal.  The words and actions of Pope Francis can only be judged after his death by a succeeding Pope, if that Pope so chooses.
That is a convenient apologetic tool, but it is not a rational one.  Moreover, that "apologetic tool" makes the proposed thesis utterly vacuous, because the only person who can judge whether there have been any apostate popes is the person currently holding the office of pope.  What if the current holder is in fact an apostate?

The proposed thesis is utter drivel.

It's infinitely circular just like the "ex cathedra" rule of Infallibility.  "Pope is infallible except when he is fallible". 
"When you don’t live with Christ, you live in melancholy, in sorrow, in anxiety and in worry. You don’t live properly… The best medicine is to devote yourself to the worship of Christ. Everything is cured. Everything works properly."

~ St. Porphyrios


"The Church is indeed 'Apostolic'.  But the Church is also 'Patristic'.  And only by being 'Patristic' is the Church continuously 'Apostolic'."

~ Fr. Georges Florovsky

Offline juliogb

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #293 on: November 11, 2019, 08:30:10 AM »
This thread is quite pointless, because the thesis it proposes is undermined by events happening in the present day.
In case you don't have time to read the whole thread, what we learned is that according to Catholic canon law, no apostasy has actually occurred, only errors in judgement and scandal.  The words and actions of Pope Francis can only be judged after his death by a succeeding Pope, if that Pope so chooses.
That is a convenient apologetic tool, but it is not a rational one.  Moreover, that "apologetic tool" makes the proposed thesis utterly vacuous, because the only person who can judge whether there have been any apostate popes is the person currently holding the office of pope.  What if the current holder is in fact an apostate?

The proposed thesis is utter drivel.

It's infinitely circular just like the "ex cathedra" rule of Infallibility.  "Pope is infallible except when he is fallible".

So, Pope Francis in theory can condemn Pious X or Pious XII as heretics? What if some future pope condemn the Vatican Council I (the same that said that ex cathedra words are irreformable)?

Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #294 on: November 11, 2019, 09:38:42 PM »
This thread is quite pointless, because the thesis it proposes is undermined by events happening in the present day.
In case you don't have time to read the whole thread, what we learned is that according to Catholic canon law, no apostasy has actually occurred, only errors in judgement and scandal.  The words and actions of Pope Francis can only be judged after his death by a succeeding Pope, if that Pope so chooses.
That is a convenient apologetic tool, but it is not a rational one.  Moreover, that "apologetic tool" makes the proposed thesis utterly vacuous, because the only person who can judge whether there have been any apostate popes is the person currently holding the office of pope.  What if the current holder is in fact an apostate?

The proposed thesis is utter drivel.

It's infinitely circular just like the "ex cathedra" rule of Infallibility.  "Pope is infallible except when he is fallible".

So, Pope Francis in theory can condemn Pious X or Pious XII as heretics? What if some future pope condemn the Vatican Council I (the same that said that ex cathedra words are irreformable)?

No, I don't think they can go back and reverse firmly established dogma or ex cathedra statements.  I just meant if a Pope is a heretic or allows heresy, then only a future Pope can condemn him or anathematize him, because while he holds office he can't be judged.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 09:39:51 PM by PorphyriosK »
"When you don’t live with Christ, you live in melancholy, in sorrow, in anxiety and in worry. You don’t live properly… The best medicine is to devote yourself to the worship of Christ. Everything is cured. Everything works properly."

~ St. Porphyrios


"The Church is indeed 'Apostolic'.  But the Church is also 'Patristic'.  And only by being 'Patristic' is the Church continuously 'Apostolic'."

~ Fr. Georges Florovsky

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #295 on: November 11, 2019, 11:54:38 PM »
This thread is quite pointless, because the thesis it proposes is undermined by events happening in the present day.
In case you don't have time to read the whole thread, what we learned is that according to Catholic canon law, no apostasy has actually occurred, only errors in judgement and scandal.  The words and actions of Pope Francis can only be judged after his death by a succeeding Pope, if that Pope so chooses.
That is a convenient apologetic tool, but it is not a rational one.  Moreover, that "apologetic tool" makes the proposed thesis utterly vacuous, because the only person who can judge whether there have been any apostate popes is the person currently holding the office of pope.  What if the current holder is in fact an apostate?

The proposed thesis is utter drivel.

It's infinitely circular just like the "ex cathedra" rule of Infallibility.  "Pope is infallible except when he is fallible".

So, Pope Francis in theory can condemn Pious X or Pious XII as heretics? What if some future pope condemn the Vatican Council I (the same that said that ex cathedra words are irreformable)?

No, I don't think they can go back and reverse firmly established dogma or ex cathedra statements.  I just meant if a Pope is a heretic or allows heresy, then only a future Pope can condemn him or anathematize him, because while he holds office he can't be judged.

Well, that depends on what you mean by "reverse." The popes spent the whole 19th century and the first half of the 20th condemning religious liberty as heresy and insanity, and then Vatican II comes along and says it's a human right. I guess they didn't condemn the previous position as much as pretend it doesn't exist.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #296 on: November 12, 2019, 06:27:04 PM »
One person explained: When the bishop of Rome is talking ~ he might say something not quite right ~ BUT when acting as the POPE OFFICIALLY ~ he then cannot make an error ~ the pope is infallible ~ how about the cardinals who choose the pope have they been making mistakes ```


It is a bit of a shame ~ there are millions stuck with an machine Set to make a part in the wrong dimensions ~ it will keep making the out of tolerance parts until it is reset ~ there is not a: Go/No Go gauge ~ so it is adjusted it is further and further out of tolerance ~ The Tool Maker can't make a mistake ~ the part is correct even if it does not fit the application for which it was intended ```

God be with them ```




Իմաստութիւն Հոր Յիսուս՝ տո՝ւր մեզ իաստուփին՝ զբարիս խորհել եւ խոսել եւ գործել առաջի Քո յամենայն ժամ : եւ ի չար խորհրդոց ի բանից եւ ի գործոց   փրկեա  զմեզ՝ ամէն:
Jesus, Wisdom of the Father, give us wisdom, to think, speak and do what is Good before you at all times. And save us from evil thoughts, words and deed, amen.

Offline Kurillos

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #297 on: November 17, 2019, 10:37:27 PM »

This is an interesting point in that the the Eastern Orthodox church can also call itself the Roman Catholic Church, for three reasons: it is the church of the Eastern Roman Empire, of New Rome, and later of Moscow, the Third Rome, and there is a certain continuity, the adherents of the Eastern Orthodox church referred to themselves as Romans and were called Romans by the Turks during Turkocratia (the collective body of Eastern Orthodox Christians was the Rum Millet), and the Eastern Orthodox confess a belief in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and do express a faith which the RCC tends to regard as doctrinally compatible. 

If one takes an irenic view that asserts a mutual Orthodoxy among both the RCC and the EOs, then both churches could be legitimately called Roman Catholic, as an odd quirk.  Now, if one also regards the Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrians as Catholic and Orthodox, they are Catholic but not Roman, in that historically they did not identify as being of Roman ethnicity, so the position there in terms of nomenclature would indeed be a bit like the Eastern Catholics.

Splitting hairs further, the Oriental Orthodox could claim to have been the true Imperial church as preserved by Theodora, as well as the true Church outside the Empire (Armenians+Ethiopians+ Maphrianite Babylonians) and therefore, both Roman (Byzantine) and Eastern Catholic and
in fact, pending reunion, still, the official position when confessing One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic from the Creed, No?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 10:39:28 PM by Kurillos »
St. Theodora, protector of our fathers St. Severus, defender of the faith and St. Yakob Burdono, preserver of the faith - pray for our protection!

Deuteronomy 6:4 - 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.'

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #298 on: November 17, 2019, 10:56:58 PM »
Yes and No ~ Each and every and all ~ is the true Church ~ I am not greater than my brother or sister ~ nor are any better loved by our God ~ than the other ~ we can be our own worst enemy if we knock the chip off ones shoulder to set it on our own ~ Christ made that clear ~ yes if we twist his words each one can claim a forward birth ~ we would be better to go together as family each church ~ all churches are The Church ~ yes ?
Իմաստութիւն Հոր Յիսուս՝ տո՝ւր մեզ իաստուփին՝ զբարիս խորհել եւ խոսել եւ գործել առաջի Քո յամենայն ժամ : եւ ի չար խորհրդոց ի բանից եւ ի գործոց   փրկեա  զմեզ՝ ամէն:
Jesus, Wisdom of the Father, give us wisdom, to think, speak and do what is Good before you at all times. And save us from evil thoughts, words and deed, amen.

Offline Kurillos

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #299 on: November 18, 2019, 07:33:32 AM »
Yes and No ~ Each and every and all ~ is the true Church ~ I am not greater than my brother or sister ~ nor are any better loved by our God ~ than the other ~ we can be our own worst enemy if we knock the chip off ones shoulder to set it on our own ~ Christ made that clear ~ yes if we twist his words each one can claim a forward birth ~ we would be better to go together as family each church ~ all churches are The Church ~ yes ?

Yes, all apostolic churches, including the Assyrians
St. Theodora, protector of our fathers St. Severus, defender of the faith and St. Yakob Burdono, preserver of the faith - pray for our protection!

Deuteronomy 6:4 - 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.'

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #300 on: November 18, 2019, 12:51:39 PM »
Yes of course ~ God love and bless our Assyrian brothers and sisters ~ glad to meet you ```







seth
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 12:52:05 PM by Sethrak »
Իմաստութիւն Հոր Յիսուս՝ տո՝ւր մեզ իաստուփին՝ զբարիս խորհել եւ խոսել եւ գործել առաջի Քո յամենայն ժամ : եւ ի չար խորհրդոց ի բանից եւ ի գործոց   փրկեա  զմեզ՝ ամէն:
Jesus, Wisdom of the Father, give us wisdom, to think, speak and do what is Good before you at all times. And save us from evil thoughts, words and deed, amen.

Offline Kurillos

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Re: Lack of bishop apostates is evidence for Roman Catholicism?
« Reply #301 on: November 19, 2019, 10:36:50 AM »
Yes of course ~ God love and bless our Assyrian brothers and sisters ~ glad to meet you ```







seth

Hi Seth,

Nice to meet you too :).

By the way, that was a neat analogy with the tool set and production. It made me think. Even with precision, industrial scale mass production, whether it is production of converts, clerics, or the liturgy - prioritizing quantity over quality is a problem. That is when the faulty tool set becomes a much bigger headache.
St. Theodora, protector of our fathers St. Severus, defender of the faith and St. Yakob Burdono, preserver of the faith - pray for our protection!

Deuteronomy 6:4 - 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.'