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Author Topic: Jesus was never the true God.  (Read 4382 times) Average Rating: 0
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MyNameIsYura
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« on: March 06, 2003, 01:08:51 AM »

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 Hear Yisrael, YHVH our God, YHVH is one. You shall love YHVH your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your resources.

Exodus 20:1-3 God spole all these statements, saying: I am YHVH your God, who has taken your out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall not recognize the gods of others in my presence.

Isaiah 45:5-7 I am YHVH, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am YHVH, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHVH do all these things.

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

There is only one God who is YHVH. YHVH is one, not two, three, or more. There is no other God but YHVH. YHVH created all things.
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« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2003, 01:50:43 AM »

Moses was speaking of the Trinity in Deut. 6:4-5. Smiley And Christians don't claim to have three Gods, we are radically monotheistic. We worship the thrice-brilliant Lord, one God in three persons. Christianity fully embraces every passage you posted, and through the guidance of Christ our God we are led into the correct interpretation.
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MyNameIsYura
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« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2003, 01:56:44 AM »

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Moses was speaking of the Trinity in Deut. 6:4-5.

Please show me where the word "Trinity" appears in the Hebrew or in the English in Deuteronomy 6:4-5.

Better yet explain to me how Moshe [Moses] was speaking of some mystical "Trinity" in Deuteronomy 6:4-5.
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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2003, 02:34:58 AM »

Just because a word doesn't appear, that doesn't mean someone isn't talking about a specific concept. Let me illustrate:

The idea that Jesus is not God is wholly outside the Christian tradition. To deny the divinity (=consubstantiality of Jesus with the Father) is to deny all of humanity any chance at salvation. Whoever teaches such Arianism is surely outside the theanthropic body of Christ, which is the ark of salvation.

See, now I said all that, and I never once said that the person in question was a heretic. This despite the fact that my words implied that he was, and that the person being a heretic is the logical conclusion of what I said. See how a word doesn't have to be mentioned, but the word's content and meaning can still be expressed?

Many of the Church Fathers taught that even the OT saints knew that God was one, and yet three persons, and I affirm this as well. Moses mentioned God (YHVH if you like) 3 times... it was an implicit way of revealing the Trinity. Because of the hardness of the hearts of the Jews, though (Exodus is an entire book that testifies to this hardness), he hid this truth from them, and only allowed it to be revealed to those who had ears to hear and eyes to see (much like Jesus did when he used parables).  

Moses also knew the Jewish tendency to worship false gods of their own fancy, and thus protected them by keeping them ignorant of certain things, lest the truth of the thrice-brilliant Lord lead them into more blantant polytheism (or henotheism) than they were already practicing. The talmud claims that the "Golden Calf" incident had a lasting effect on the Jewish people (much like the original fall of Adam)... I wouldn't go that far, but it's a good place to start in trying to understand why Moses wouldn't reveal all that he knew to his beloved people.

In Christ my God,

Justin
« Last Edit: March 06, 2003, 02:39:17 AM by Paradosis » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2003, 03:26:02 AM »

Yura, for the same reason, the account of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden does not name the angel Lucifer in Genesis 3, but rather refers to him as 'the serpent'. If he was described as he truly is, as an angel (fallen of course) then no doubt the Jews would have begun worshipping him too.

It might help you to understand the Old and New Testaments better if you grasp that all the appearances of God (YHVH) in the Old Testament are in fact the second person of the triune God, before his incarnation. No one can see God (the Father) and live, yet many times throughout the Old Testament people see God (the Son) and live.

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MyNameIsYura
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« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2003, 03:31:17 AM »

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Moses mentioned God (YHVH if you like) 3 times... it was an implicit way of revealing the Trinity.

What? Sir, that's just plain silly, I am so sorry, I don't know any nice way to repond to such unlearned logic.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Deuteronomy 6:4-5 Hear Yisrael, YHVH our God, YHVH is one.

Now look careful and observed why your thinking is very wrong.

Hear Yisrael -- This is stateing to Yisrael.

YHVH our God -- This is stating who our [Judaism] God is.

YHVH is one -- This is stating that our God is one, not two, three, or more.

Deuteronomy 6:5 You shall love YHVH your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your resources.

YHVH your God -- This is stating to Yisrael as YHVH our God.

There is completely NOTHING about any mention of a Trinity, or any meantion of three YHVH's.

Let me give an example how ridiculous your logic is.

Okay, my name is Yura.

A person walks up to me and says, hey Yura, I say hey back to them. Another person walks up to me and say, how you doing Yura, I say I am doing okay back to them. And yet another person says, Yura long time no see, and I say yes true back at them.

Now is there any mention of three Yura's? No, it's all referring to me.

Quote
Because of the hardness of the hearts of the Jews, though (Exodus is an entire book that testifies to this hardness), he hid this truth from them, and only allowed it to be revealed to those who had ears to hear and eyes to see (much like Jesus did when he used parables).


Sir, I please, do not make me laugh, I am trying to be serious here.
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« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2003, 05:01:40 AM »

I didn't think you'd understand, but it's not my job to make you understand, it's only my duty to give you the information. It's up to God to make the seed I've planted grow into a vine of truth. Smiley I'll add you to my prayer list, may the Lord bless you with the only knowledge that saves one from death!
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« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2003, 05:11:26 AM »

Okay Paradosis, I came up with some examples to express my feelings towards your logic.

Have you ever watched a movie, and in a movie someone does something so embarrassing that you feel embarrassed for them?

It's like this, only in this case, instead of someone doing something embarrassing, they do something completely foolish to the point where you just feel just like speechless at the foolishness of the person.

There you go, that was the nicest way I can come up to respond to your logic on Deuteronomy 6:4-5.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2003, 07:08:04 AM by MyNameIsYura » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2003, 06:52:02 AM »

It would help if we knew which post you were responding to.

John.
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« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2003, 07:46:10 AM »

Thankyou for editing your post Yura. A little politeness never hurt anybody.

John.
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« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2003, 08:24:47 AM »

Hi Yura,

Upon signing up for this board, you agreed to our policies and mission statement. Unfortunately, it seems that you are in disobeidence to them.

If you'd like to discuss or learn more about Orthodoxy, this is the place to do it, but if you are here to push polytheism, or any other outlandish agenda, please take it elsewhere.

Thanks,
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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2003, 08:54:20 AM »

I am afraid he might have followed me back home last night after I went out to eat at the Pizza Parlor.  I shall endeavor to drive my MINI faster and more stealthy next time as I return Smiley

My apologies

Oblio
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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2003, 10:45:44 AM »




Genesis 1:26: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."  Revised Standard Version



Genesis 18:1: And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day.
2: He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men stood in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the earth,
3: and said, "My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant.
4: Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree,
5: while I fetch a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on -- since you have come to your servant." So they said, "Do as you have said."
6: And Abraham hastened into the tent to Sarah, and said, "Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes."
7: And Abraham ran to the herd, and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to the servant, who hastened to prepare it.
8: Then he took curds, and milk, and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree while they ate.



1 Corinthians 1:17: For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
18: For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19: For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart."
20: Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21: For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
22: For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
23: but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
24: but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25: For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


Sorry guys, this seemed to need a Berean style post.
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« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2003, 11:42:38 AM »

Thanks for posting those Icons.

Truly wonderful !
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« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2003, 11:57:57 AM »

[There is completely NOTHING about any mention of a Trinity, or any meantion of three YHVH's.]

Matthew 28:19 -  "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of THE FATHER, and of THE SON, and of the HOLY SPIRIT,

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« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2003, 12:33:49 PM »



Yura:

If I may be so bold to ask...What is your religious affiliation?

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« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2003, 12:53:27 PM »

Many Orthodox today have a vague concept of Trinitarianism (heck, many Protestants and RC's do as well).  Fr. Thomas Hopko sums up the whole position quite well in his work The Spirit of God

The Orthodox Church teaches that only the Father is YHWH.  Jesus and the Holy Spirit are his Word and Spirit, and image Him, thus they are divine as well, but YHWH is the Originator of the Divinity.  When we say words like "origin", however, we must be careful to emphasize that this is happening outside of time and is an eternal process.

Jesus specifically claims to be YHWH in the New Testament several times, the most specific instance being: John 8:58 - Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

The post-exilic works of Judaism such as Proverbs, Psalms, etc., and the Deuterocanonical Works that appeared in the Septuagint (the accepted form of the Bible until the Jews removed the Deuterocanonical books in 90 AD at the Council of Jamnia) already show the idea of "Logos" or "Sophia".  God has a Word or a Wisdom through which he creates.  This Wisdom is a person.  Read the literature and you see it is personified even in these Old Testament books.  This finds its fulfillment in the New Testament book of John Ch. 1: "In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not."

YHWH is the creator, but YHWH is inaccessible to humans.  His word (Logos) was, however, accessible to us.  Christ is the pre-existent Logos who was a part of the Divinity of YHWH and inseparable from Him.  Christ was incarnate.  Christ suffered and died for us.  Only Christ reunites us with YHWH.

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« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2003, 02:23:52 PM »

If I may be so bold to ask...What is your religious affiliation?

I would presume either a Jew or Messianic Jew.  Too much Hebrew suggests nothing much else to me.

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« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2003, 02:29:58 PM »

I was thinking Jew or JW. I've seen him/her lurking her for almost an hour. I wonder if he/she will answer?
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« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2003, 05:01:38 PM »

Just a general note, not directed at anyone in particular. There was no fixed canon in Judaism at the time of Jesus. Various sects accepted different books in their canon (e.g., the Essenes, Pharisees, and Sadducees all had different canons, and different Jews used different languages as well in using the Scriptures), so it's not accurate to say that "the Septuagint was accepted by everyone until Jamnia" (or a similar "canned" apologetic argument). This claim, made by some Orthodox, is IMO, a corruption that came into Orthodoxy because of western influence (ie. the feeling that it was necessary to "fix" the canon definately, and also to make sure the canon was "based on solid ground" due to a humanistic, rationalistic, approach... the Orthodox never "fixed" the canon definately--though of course guidelines were given--and this can be easily verified by searching through various statements of faith from the post-byzantine Church, and the later Fathers such as John of Damascus; the fact that the Jews at the time of our Lord differed in their view of the canon just as the early Church Fathers did is not a problem for Orthodoxy or Orthodox epistemological thought). Anyway, back to the subject... many Jews used Aramaic targums, and there are other examples of differences (though the majority of quotes in the NT are either from the Septuagint, or a paraphrase, a number of quotes rely on the Hebrew text -- the Hebrew text as it was before the Masoretes got ahold of it anyway). Why do I say all this (especially when some would say that a "unified front" should be had on a thread such as this)? Essentially, I only say this because it's important that we keep away from bad arguments, which can be easily torn down, making it look like Christianity is intellectually bankrupt and relies on straw-men arguments to fool their faithful. Again, this isn't directed at anyone in particular on this thread (though if discussion on the subject is wanted, I'd love to participate Wink )
« Last Edit: March 06, 2003, 05:19:16 PM by Paradosis » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2003, 05:19:46 PM »

Yura,

After stating your religious affiliation (and please do not be facitious; just state which religious group you belong to), can you inform us what you believe the "good news" of Christ is?  I want you to teach us your gospel.

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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2003, 11:43:51 PM »

There is no way a Jew would post a representation, even in Latin/English letters, of the tetragrammaton on a web page. Similarly most Jews I have seen online spell God "G-d." Thus I'm guessing JW.

"Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has bound the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name, and what is His Son's name,
If you know?"
Proverbs 30:4 (KJV)

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