Author Topic: Why I am orthodox  (Read 2743 times)

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Offline mikeforjesus

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Why I am orthodox
« on: September 10, 2019, 04:42:41 AM »
In the past the Pope of Rome was not infallible yet he tried to bring all under him this led to saints disagreeing with the pope yet they remained as bishops in the church but not under the Roman pope such as Cyprian and in the ecumenical councils where the pope sometimes taught heresy that even the Roman Catholic Church agrees with that is heresy. The pope in the early church was not to interfere with other sees but they were all accepted as part of the church even though they were independent

Also the pope from Rome was not the only one considered a descendant of Peter St. John chrysostom called Flavian bishop of Antioch a descendent of Peter and obtaining his chair

I believe the greatest schism is leaving what is not clearly false to all and being judgemental to church when the orthodox are not clearly wrong because it is necessary not to be under the pope if he will teach heresy but if God wanted conversion in such confusion He would perform miracles like He did to Cornelius to show His acceptance of us. Because I don’t know orthodoxy is not true so it would cause a schism.

I desire to just learn in the church more the defense of orthodoxy so I am not biased but I am quite convinced though more study will lead to more convincing

I don’t know if we can say Protestants are like heretics in the early church because I think all of their objections to the church I think would have been proven without a doubt by the church fathers such as if the heretics did not know st ignatius was a disciple of St. John and needed proof it is the Eucharist I think they would have got. I think that may be the case of all the church history there was proof for those who did not for instance want to be unbaptised but they doubted the church fathers who told them so were from God. If the only way to prove was by miracles there would have been miracles atleast before their death. But they could still refuse and challenge God refusing the waters of baptism. I don’t know maybe he would not do a miracle

We have to assume perhaps God rightly led the church into the truth and we have to assume ignatius did write on communion and all the church fathers preserved the correct biblical teaching throughout the centuries.

Though I mentioned st Augustine as not infallible it may be true but I may be misunderstanding his teaching on predestination if he does not mean not everyone can choose to accept Gods grace but the church as a whole would keep the true teaching through a consensus of the fathers

I therefore only know salvation is in the church and I would want others to join it because it is not clear there is salvation outside the church. Until I have proof


« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 04:43:27 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2019, 08:35:00 AM »
The call of Jesus is you have to choose Him before your loved ones. It does not mean hate your parents but they must also choose Jesus words. If they died outside of Christ you must still choose Jesus.  You must believe they got their chance and may have known the church doctrines may be true and not wanted to seek the truth and they had to choose between loved ones and God. There is the possibility that people have no excuse not to want to want to accept the historical evidence for the church and accept the true God that the church explains biblically seeking to know Him

The only writers in church history who spoke we’re the church fathers there were no Protestant writers who spoke or God did not let it survive so I don’t think there is in that sense support for Protestants though it could be acceptable. I am open to being convinced but I don’t see any proof for it. I am worried there is no grace to live the Christian life also outside the church. We have no proof not to trust the church fathers no one else’s writings survived no one claiming to hear anything from the apostles or from those who hears them so we should maybe follow the church. I believe I can still preach the gospel if I follow the church not declaring with certainty that Protestants are not saved yet warning they may need the church. But I should just preach the gospel not the church unless asked. My dad thinks I should just preach Jesus. I however have to disagree with him I may be obedient to him if I don’t condemn Protestantism for sure even though I stress salvation may be only in the church but I can’t know for sure. I think I should just preach Jesus at least for non Christian and they will know I am orthodox. They could ask more and I will say why salvation may be only in the church though it could be outside too. And  for Protestants if they ask I will say the same but I won’t judge definitely

My options are Catholicism or Orthodoxy which I must decide which place to know I am saved

Jerome seemed to believe that you must be in communion with the Roman pope. When he said wherever there is a bishop in the east or west there priesthood is the same he may have meant because they were united to Rome.

I don’t know whether to believe in papal infallibility. The popes in the past seemed not to be infallible. The Catholic Church says they are only infallible if they choose to declare it as official church teaching. They say they didn’t. But it seems they did  and they were fallible

I don’t believe the church fathers ever taught invincible ignorance. They said all must be baptised and have communion especially that the church is available in all the world. Unless there is no way for people to know orthodoxy or catholicism is true in non Christian lands but I think all can have access to Internet I don’t know if church fathers spoke that people are excused but it may have been assumed. The scriptures speak of it. Where there is no law the people are judged on their conscience but some think the scriptures by saying those without law will perish without law mean they have to be evangelised but it may mean if they choose to be without law or if they have no law and still don’t live according to their conscience.

The Catholics don’t believe in remarriage but if orthodox convert to Catholicism they may be able to get their new marriage recognised in the church because they never knew marriage is life long commitment only seperated by death. I am not sure I believe the Catholic beliefs that there is no remarriage for sexual sin

The Catholics now seem to think they can believe in limbo for unbaptised babies which may be correct because the church does not base its doctrines on one church father like Augustine but the church never seemed to define if there is a limbo
Perhaps babies simply don’t inherit life according to inheriting Adams corruption which is original sin of Adam and they will be punished mildly for their small sins and it will be tolerable maybe their mild punishment is they won’t enter the kingdom but they will have some comforts and freedom but they will know they are deprived of heaven therefore they won’t be happy but it will be tolerable. I don’t know if that qualifies for no middle place of happiness between damnation and salvation

I believe the Orthodox Church may be true it has apostolic succession also but I don’t know what to think of the fathers who seemed to believe you need to be in communion with Rome but the majority of fathers sayings seem to suggest that the church is not built on Peter but on his faith
I can’t answer the problem of the fathers that seem to support Rome am I still welcome to have communion in Orthodox Church since I think there might be an answer and some fathers may have indeed believed you don’t need to be in communion with Peter since they don’t think the church is built on it. I therefore hope to be saved in the Orthodox Church but I am not sure. I believe converting to Catholicism would make me a potential schismatic but even if not so as I think I could still be saved I could harm the church
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 08:44:17 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2019, 08:55:17 AM »
My dad believes to believe unbaptised babies go to hell it means we don’t believe in a loving and just God and we have to become like the little children that Jesus accepts but maybe we should accept God as He is He is most just and merciful in giving them the least punishment anyway we don’t know if they go to Hell it may not be official teaching though it could be the truth.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 09:04:26 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2019, 10:26:58 PM »
I won’t judge orthodox or catholic but I think I am a better Christian to fully accept Protestants. Many people need not to be judged.I was wrong I don’t accept that Jesus would want you to judge family who are Christian or hinder people from seeking to become Christian by condemning other Christians. It is better for orthodox to be accepting but if they fear I don’t judge them. God will save people from every denomination or rather all denominations that try to really follow the bible
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 10:39:19 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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is it acceptable to accept the church without having 100% proof
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2019, 11:37:50 PM »
How can I prove st John actually knew st ignatius and how can I know God did not want everyone to just follow Him and that people did not err in judging those outside the church and God did not want to prove they are in error because He wanted to reward those who truly follow only Him and try to know Him on a personal level even though they would be saved if they err unintentionally.

I decided I should follow where the truth leads as I am potentially deceiving souls and I should desire no one to seperate me from God. God desires not the death of anyone even if we must accept the unborn and the unbaptised babies don’t go to heaven but they may not suffer much physically. But they may know they are missing something. Whether they suffer or not it will not be like those who had their life to choose God. Still I should not desire anything to seperate me from God. God may have His reasons why He cannot accept an unborn or unbaptised baby into heaven. I would like help in that topic also to accept orthodoxy. Maybe unlike Catholics we don’t follow Augustine that they go to hell but the church never defined it. St Gregory Nazianzus opinion was that they are neither punished nor glorified. It makes sense as Jesus said let the little children come to Me so they should come but they may not be punished if they don’t come. I would like help accepting that I should still follow a God who will condemn babies who never had a choice. How can it ever be justified if it is in His control. Do they really need to be baptised for Him to take away original sin. I can accept only that they don’t go to heaven but they don’t suffer

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2019, 05:29:31 AM »
If ignatius lied about the teaching of St. John condemning those outside the church  the many eye witnesses of John if they were still alive which I think many of them would not have died by persecution  would warn against his teachings but the concept of apostolic succession God may not have desired to exist for believers as He didn’t want people to believe by force but choose whether to follow God or man and to know truth personally to maybe stay in the church and preach it while at the same time seeking to know if possible there is salvation outside the church. Maybe you can know but I just haven’t got there yet or few find it. But we only know salvation is in the church. Do you have proof that God would not want to hide the truth from those who don’t seek Him diligently  ?  It may be obvious to some there is salvation outside the church but not to others. Maybe God has prevented people from seeing the arguments for the truth. Though I don’t know there is salvation outside the church
« Last Edit: October 04, 2019, 05:36:57 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2019, 06:07:03 AM »
Perhaps St. John and st Ignatiius  never condemned those who don’t rebel against the bishop who but who never thought they should submit wholly to his teachings if one thought the bishop added to the faith. Maybe the early church had undeniable proof that it received its teachings from the apostles so schismatics had no excuse but that may not be the case now. Otherwise it still may have been the case that you had to struggle to believe the church. Do we have proof that the early church was the same as now ?

St Ignatius  may have assumed positions that he heard John speak about but never was told from him it was permanent or St. John may have never told st ignatius those things but st ignatius (maybe he is still a saint if God wanted him to be fallible) wanted to create the church. God may have permitted him to do so and allowed men to be fallible but work with them also to bring many to salvation but God would reveal to people that others would be saved also. The normal avenue would be the church. People should join but it may have been his intention to save otherwise

If orthodoxy is true I would like proof that church fathers are infallible and that God never intended to save outside otherwise I am deceiving many. Therefore I can only say now salvation may be in the church only though it might be outside also.

« Last Edit: October 04, 2019, 06:18:32 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2019, 06:42:41 AM »
Maybe the case is the same then and now there is proof for the church always but people have to desire to hear the church. Still I am yet convinced 100% that what I have suggested above is not true.

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2019, 04:16:24 AM »
The evidence might seem to be for the church if people convince me but the truth might be scripture alone is true which teaches believers can be saved in the world to come. It may be Ignatius words don’t condemn Protestants of today and church fathers were not infallible or the truth may even be there was no ignatius living at that time who taught those things his letters some of them may be considered spurious and may have been written after the first century maybe he was ordained by St. John but he never wrote those letters or he made up that he knew St. John it is a possibility. The evidence for that seems not strong now but those who seek the Lord may know better or be more convinced. I don’t want to teach exclusive but i would still like to be convinced of the orthodox position if I think the world needs to hear it
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 04:21:39 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2019, 05:13:32 AM »
Still the defense of Christians outside the church does not seem strong at the moment because no one wrote but some may have an answer for that I don’t know what. If no one has come up with an answer we should believe the churches are true until there is an answer to everything that seems important but I don’t know if I can choose to be orthodox unless I believe it can not be denied that St. ignatius was taught by St. John and was teaching the truth. I would like more convincing that that is true
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 05:18:57 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2019, 05:29:34 AM »
Do you have to have proof for every objection or the foundational ones of the church to be orthodox? Can you just accept the church teaching but is there any undeniable proof of orthodoxy? Is not ignatius and irenaeus the foundation of the church ? Though I admit I have not proved they are unreliable I am able to doubt it. How do I be a believer if I can’t prove my doubts ?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 05:32:38 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2019, 05:54:01 AM »
Many things I think can be denied if you want to deny it.  As far as you can not prove something is false I suppose that is the truth. Therefore I think I can be orthodox but others may disagree or it may be some things can not be denied. With Jesus you can not deny all the prophets stopped at Him
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 06:04:16 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2019, 06:05:16 AM »
Edited to get my thoughts on track
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 06:15:48 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2019, 12:48:50 AM »
As much as I don’t like to judge family the early church fathers seem to support the church. I have to preach that for the living. They may disagree and think they are right if they were really right which I may have to disagree they have nothing to fear but I should preach the church as it seems right.

 I need to know if I have caused people to doubt orthodoxy and to answer it with proof. To confirm our faith better
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 12:59:07 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2019, 07:58:16 AM »
It is all a harsh judgement Christians should not be judged. There may be proof that other Christians are saved and better proof than I know but anyone who wants to join the church can if they want to seek the truth for the church seek to be convinced of the church and follow it but there may be proof outside of the church for those who seek
The other days gospel readings when I was thinking about this said condemn not that you be not condemned we only follow the church as the proof seems to be in the church but we don’t know

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2019, 08:16:56 PM »
There may very well be salvation outside the Church ~ the Lord can and I'm sure does bring to Himself all whom He wishes ~ but I worship Him in His Church where I feel the Presence ```
Իմաստութիւն Հոր Յիսուս՝ տո՝ւր մեզ իաստուփին՝ զբարիս խորհել եւ խոսել եւ գործել առաջի Քո յամենայն ժամ : եւ ի չար խորհրդոց ի բանից եւ ի գործոց   փրկեա  զմեզ՝ ամէն:
Jesus, Wisdom of the Father, give us wisdom, to think, speak and do what is Good before you at all times. And save us from evil thoughts, words and deed, amen.

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2019, 03:23:08 AM »
I don’t want to be judgemental there could be evidence for salvation outside the church but I don’t find now. People who don’t have evidence should assume they need the church and keep seeking evidence while they are in the church. But we can’t judge for sure
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 03:34:12 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2019, 03:36:58 AM »
So one thing is certain if people don’t have evidence they should join the church as it may be true but we don’t know for sure
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 03:37:48 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2019, 02:22:01 AM »
If church tradition seems to be against Jesus commandment of do not judge maybe the tradition can not be trusted even if it can not be proven anymore but God wants to test people and reward people for loving.
Maybe st ignatius did not know St. John or the one who wrote the letter was not st ignatius and st irenaeus may not have known polycarp and neither polycarp may have known St. John
It may seem unlikely for those who do not believe God would let people lie so as to test people to reward them.
Many churches would have been established based on people holding the same position of ignatius and irenaeus. And people may have desired to hold that position and knew it was a lie and God allowed them to lie to test people even not letting anyone else writing be preserved if they wrote so he would test if people listened to the scripture which may contradict tradition and loved other Christians and did not judge. I don’t have proof it contradicts but it might as it says do not judge and presents God as a fair God and that is why people are saved in the world to come. We don’t know if tradition is right to exclude people in the church. Scriptures teach God is fair and we don’t know if the church position is fair

You should trust the church tradition because there is no proof otherwise and there is no proof God would want to test people by making no one write but maybe it is true that the one who wrote st irenaeus writings and the one who wrote st ignatius epistles were lying 

There may be undeniable proof that there was a ignatius who knew St. John and he wrote those letters and that st irenaeus knew polycarp and polycarp knew John
So you should not depend on the tradition being a lie

You should search the truth and accept it
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 02:35:45 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2019, 02:57:30 AM »
If you say why would God test people it would not be fair because some people will choose the church because of the absence of evidence but it could still make sense because other people may be convinced that they are following Jesus outside the church and think God is more fair. They choose to follow that way and God may not reject them. But people should follow the church if they have no evidence that there is salvation outside the church still they should search if there is proof those who wrote st ignatius epistle and the one who wrote under irenaeus can not be doubted. But I say these things to give hope where there may not be evidence. But I think if there is any doubt still not in the church and the evidence seems to support the church you should follow it

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2019, 03:04:12 AM »
I think already it can not be proven the tradition is false so people should join the church but we don’t know or there may be proof that the writings of st ignatius and st irenaeus are reliable

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2019, 04:41:04 AM »
I think if it can not be proven the church history is false there may be no excuse to assume it is false and not follow the church. Maybe we can not know if God will excuse that because they may not have proof their assumption is false but we should assume He won’t excuse it still
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 04:50:40 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2019, 05:02:14 AM »
I think that is harsh and we need not assume He won’t excuse it He may or may not. I think it is harsh to judge loved ones who are Christian

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2019, 06:07:03 AM »
It may be harsh that there is no salvation outside the church that is why you have to preach the church as we don’t know there is salvation outside. Maybe the assumption that the persons who wrote for st ignatius and st irenaeus are not genuine has no proof that it is genuine then maybe those outside the church can be saved but many assumptions can be created which even if there is proof it is false one may not know it but it is not excused because you can’t prove the original thing is false. But if you can prove  that the persons who wrote for st ignatius and st irenaeus are genuine maybe there are no other assumptions though there could be but weak ones but there could be strong ones. If there are strong ones we can only say you might have to join the church
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 06:13:20 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2019, 06:29:26 AM »
it may seem harsh but God thinks it is fair perhaps because they ignore the evidence.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 06:42:57 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2019, 11:35:46 PM »
It seems it is a tradition of man that everyone has to submit to the Roman pontiff instead of Jesus or that they have to submit to the church yet the evidence at least for orthodoxy seems incontestable maybe submitting to the Roman pontiff is a tradition of man and he may have only been a first among equals. He should have been acknowledged but he doesn’t have to he should still be the leader among churches and church doctrine even for those who do not accept him it is just a matter of respect

It seems unreasonable that everyone would have to join the church according to my dad then it may be a tradition of man as below but I think if it was not Gods will for everyone to join the church He would prove or there would be proof that you don’t have to. I think therefore the below proof is unreasonable and you may have to join the church. My dad says I can preach the church those who are rigid will like it but I won’t affect those who don’t want to be orthodox because they already think they are following the right path. Yet I think it is wrong as there are people who believe in the church but don’t want to follow it because they don’t want to leave behind loved ones who are Christian. Yet I think they must hear the church because it might be true

The below is an attempt to suggest the church fathers may be a tradition of the church not from God but it is not proof and you may be able to prove what I am saying here is not true but even if you can’t it may be a tradition of God because you can’t prove it is not from God. It is just ideas you can’t prove they are not from God

I think there is no proof that ignatius or irenaeus knew St. John directly or through polycarp and there is no proof polycarp existed or knew St. John and the idea of church may have been invented by someone early on which started the tradition of the church
There may not have been an ignatius but that history was invented or ignatius did know St. John but didn’t write that letter
Irenaeus may not have known polycarp and we don’t know whether there was a polycarp. But the earlier tradition may have been made up there may have been a bishop which claimed to succeed a made up line of bishops or they got someone to ordain him and there is no evidence it is not true because it is after St. John death and he could always make up that someone ordained him that those who died won’t be able to confirm it is not true and even if he is lying people may tolerate it even if they call it a lie and so the tradition is created which afterwards you can not prove is false
Eusebius lived in the 3rd to 4th century and was the first to mention ignatius. He often said untrue things. He may not be a reliable historian to know what happend but may have heard only rumours or seen the letter supposed to be written by ignatius after the time it supposes to write for. Other men may have also have made up history to support the church. They are the few fathers who confirm the church

It is not proof but a possibility others may be able to prove what I am saying is not true

God may not have left what others wrote because God wants to test if you will follow Him or man to reward you but you should seek proof if there is. Others may have better proof and be able to answer why no one wrote but God may reward people who fight for people.

These may seem like lies because they are propositions created to question what we have received but it may be true

Even if what I say is not true the church of today may not be like in the early church where baptism and communion was required because most of the church taught it and it was known those who taught against it were heretics and they would have seen miracles perhaps before they die. It is the refusal to be baptised and have communion when you know you absolutely must

I think however what I said may be true but you are welcome to believe otherwise there may not be proof against the church because it may be what God built and it would be where people get grace from when there is no grace to bless others but you can share grace with others outside the church

« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 11:48:00 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2019, 11:53:56 PM »
Ignore this part as I included it from another day writing when I thought maybe it is reasonable but now I think it is not reasonable because if church tradition is true you probably have to have baptism and communion

Quote
Even if what I say is not true the church of today may not be like in the early church where baptism and communion was required because most of the church taught it and it was known those who taught against it were heretics and they would have seen miracles perhaps before they die. It is the refusal to be baptised and have communion when you know you absolutely must

Quote
I think however what I said may be true but you are welcome to believe otherwise there may not be proof against the church because it may be what God built and it would be where people get grace from when there is no grace to bless others but you can share grace with others outside the church
« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 12:07:46 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2019, 12:03:15 AM »
I think the part where I tried to say the tradition of the church is from man may be deceiving and God if He wanted people not to follow the church would provide evidence it is false and people would have been chosen by God to write in defense of the gospel but I can’t know. But it seems people don’t have excuse not to join the church even though my dad thinks it is unlikely that people would all have to join the church

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2019, 01:35:17 AM »
I have to disagree with my father that it is unreasonable that all have to be in one church because if the evidence leads to it there is no excuse

People should follow where the evidence leads them it may be there is salvation outside the church though to me it seems the evidence is away from it or it may be in the Orthodox Church or Catholic Church. I don’t agree with many things in Catholic Church as mentioned above. I worry they invent doctrines and I can not trust their teaching but I may be convinced otherwise. I think the true church may consist of catholic and Orthodox Church if they accept the popes teaching when he declares true teaching. I don’t think the pope is guaranteed to be infallible even if he declares a doctrine true if that is what ex cathedra means but he is able to be infallible but he may still get it wrong from time to time. I can not prove his teachings were wrong sometimes such as immaculate conception but for that one I may think I have proof against it. I would be accepting it without being convinced of it.
They say God saved Mary by making her born without a sin nature but why didn’t He do that to all of us. They may have a reason for everything.

You may have to find the true church and enter it if it consists of only catholic or orthodox but can the true church consist of catholic and orthodox even though each of them do not accept the other churches unless the orthodox accept the Catholic Church but not for orthodox to convert to it who know orthodoxy is the true faith or for others who know it is the true faith. Do we know the Catholic Church is a schismatic church or is it part of the true church because people don’t know it is in error but due to previous people dividing the church whether intentionally or thinking their doctrines may be correct. If Catholics are required to believe in heresy you know is not sound then it could be a schismatic church but they will be saved if they stay in the church and don’t believe heresy if they are all part of the true church.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 01:39:52 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2019, 02:11:00 AM »
I don’t want to say the evidence is unlikely for those outside the church. I think there may be evidence for salvation outside the church but you have to search for it diligently

The bible says you will find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. It may mean find this evidence or find the true church. It seems it could mean to find the fullness to be rewarded but if you don’t find you can still be saved

I don’t know if you will find such evidence it may be you may have to accept the church if the evidence points to it and you can not find otherwise it means the truth currently for you is the church
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 02:17:55 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2019, 11:37:53 PM »
According to my dad other christians are saved. He said you should pray for a born again experience to know for sure but I believe he thinks they still can be saved even if they don't know. I suppose all should join the church if they worry they are not saved and it is not true. I don't know if it is true that there is born again experience so you should join the church but I want to pray for one. He said God will make you think differently. I thought I had a born again experience when I was 18 I think I did experience something but I didn't know the doctrines of the church. I am not sure my dad knew the doctrines of the church either but it seems he still thinks he is right even knowing the doctrine of the church now so it may be something real he can not deny.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2019, 11:47:46 PM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2019, 11:56:38 PM »
There is no excuse not to join the church if you have not yet had a born again experience because we don't know it is true. You should seek one though

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2019, 12:41:07 AM »
I don’t think there is any valid born again experience if it does not prove the history of the church is not correct or that God never judged Protestants before or that he may have done so if times were different. But it seems unlikely to believe times were different or that God never judged or that the history of the church is not correct. But I can not say God may be able to reveal that it is

Offline CooperDog

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2019, 10:23:47 AM »
My dad believes to believe unbaptised babies go to hell it means we don’t believe in a loving and just God and we have to become like the little children that Jesus accepts but maybe we should accept God as He is He is most just and merciful in giving them the least punishment anyway we don’t know if they go to Hell it may not be official teaching though it could be the truth.

Numberofabortions.com

If your dad is right (i doubt it) then we all as humans deserve the punishment coming to us.
What can we do but try to bring back CHRISTIAN CONSERVATISM.
Thats the question we should be asking, how, who, when, where........
I love you.

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2019, 12:40:08 PM »
My dad may think you have to be born again but he may think if you follow tradition not knowing it is wrong God will not judge you because he also said that. But you want to be born again to win others. But if you are orthodox who has communion often thinking it will save you even if you are not living according to Christ and if you don’t know christ died for you and as living in you through the Holy Spirit you can not be saved. If you try to do your own works without the guidance or help of the Holy Spirit. But orthodox who have relationship with Christ even if they don’t have the complete experience of God I think and I think he thinks they can be saved as long as if they were told they were open to learning others are saved even if they never see beyond orthodoxy

I don’t know how you can bring back conservatism and make people afraid of having abortions maybe my dad does not know if they go to heaven but believes  they do not go to hell it may be the church position is right whether it believes they go to Hell but it is milder for them though still bad a separation from heaven felt but not punished much physically or the church believes they are not punished or glorified. Maybe not punished means they go to limbo. You are definitely harming them by abortion by depriving them from glorification whether that means no salvation or a non glorified salvation it may be you if they are aborted rather than simply unbaptised they are not even automatically unpunished but have to be tested first and to see if they are either unpunished or saved.
I am hoping they may be tested to see whether they deserve salvation . But without the possibility of hell people may be unafraid of having abortions. I don’t yet know what is true. Maybe the church teaching is true about that and all the unbaptised outside the church. I want to be convinced otherwise if I can be born again but it might be true
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 12:51:29 PM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2019, 06:45:16 AM »
I don’t know whether there is such a thing as being born again where you know the history of the church is incorrect or that ignatius was not infallible even if he was taught by St. John if he may have wanted power. God did not make any proof you can know from writings so it must be a private revelation if there is. But I don’t know why God would want to hide the truth since people need it  so I have doubts about there being a born again experience.

If you have no born again experience you can not assume you are saved outside the church you have to practice the sacraments and hold the churches teaching

You have to join the Orthodox or Catholic Church if they may both be part of the true church the one you feel is most true or if there is one true church until you find the true church but they may both be part of the true church if the true church needs reformation if it departed from the ancient if there is still in fact one church

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2019, 07:05:24 AM »
I don’t mean there is no hope that you are saved outside the church for there may be a born again experience to confirm but I don’t know for sure there is one. If you don’t have one you should assume there is none and the church teaching is true

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2019, 07:36:44 AM »
Even if you don’t have the full born again experience you may still be born again and Christian if you accepted Christianity with understanding when you are older. But I don’t know if there is a full born again experience so you may need the church. If you have no born again experience you should assume there is none and church teaching is true

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2019, 08:18:29 AM »
God did not make any proof you can know from writings so it must be a private revelation if there is. But I don’t know why God would want to hide the truth since people need it  so I have doubts about there being a born again experience.

By private revelation I mean God may convince your thoughts with something undeniable He may even show you evidence you did not know existed so He would only be hiding the evidence from those who don’t seek diligently

But that may not be possible or reasonable so if you have no experience you have to assume the church teaching is true

If you say why hide it from anyone. Well God is not doing anything wrong to hide it from people. Because they can join the church and people should foremost think on their own salvation  but if they want to have hope for other Christians salvation they should seek and God should answer if you are diligent and sincere.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 08:28:30 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2019, 04:34:55 AM »
I think we may already have reason to believe the history may have been made up or that ignatius and irenaeus were not infallible and maybe wanted power. All the church fathers afterwards either were deceived by them or wanted power also or simply had trouble believing the gospel was for everyone.
I believe God wanted to reward people who will trust in Him and not judge family and work for the gospel but they will still be saved who follow the church.
I will cling to that hope I won’t judge family . I hope I stay that way but I may go back to following the church if I think God would want me following the church but I think it does damage to some unless I thought God still wants me to preach it but I don’t think He does. I understand some people would need to be born again to be convinced otherwise. They may not have family who do not hold the churches teaching and if they do they have hope to convert them to the church and have not done badly against others that they feel the need to preach otherwise

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2019, 04:42:24 AM »
Maybe I should still preach the church as I deprive people unto their last breath to choose the church. So you should join the church to be sure. You should consider maybe you have to join the church but they might be saved outside. You should think you have to join the church but they might be saved outside
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 04:46:04 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Why I am orthodox
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2019, 11:56:08 PM »
I should not be teaching people they can leave the church beliefs when I don’t know if you can be saved outside. Better to seek a born again experience. I should not deprive people of the chance to join the church but I do not know if there is salvation outside. Without a born again experience we should assume there is not