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Author Topic: I believe in Universal Reconciliation  (Read 21728 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: December 14, 2005, 08:35:47 PM »

Chalcedon excommunicated the Oriental Orthodox Christians for holding to St. Cyril's christology, wrongfully accusing them of monophysitism.

Nope. The Egyptian bishops actually participated in the council, and were not condemned for holding Cyril's Christology. Only Dioscorus was excommunicated, for events surrounding "Latrocinium." Only later, much later, was the term monophysite used.
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« Reply #136 on: December 14, 2005, 08:40:22 PM »

You've missed the point. The fact that the Oriental Orthodox Church has never been monophysite proves that the Council of Chalcedon was dead wrong and therefore, Ecumenical Councils can most definitely be in error.

When did Chalcedon:

a) Condemn Cyrillian Christology?

or

b) Call the Coptics monophysites?
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« Reply #137 on: December 14, 2005, 10:41:44 PM »

When did Chalcedon:

a) Condemn Cyrillian Christology?

or

b) Call the Coptics monophysites?

If these are not the events which transpired, why were Oriental Orthodox Christian excommunicated?
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« Reply #138 on: December 15, 2005, 12:27:59 AM »

Chalcedon excommunicated the Oriental Orthodox Christians for holding to St. Cyril's christology, wrongfully accusing them of monophysitism.   

Actually, that is how you interpret what Chalcedon did; they never said that you're out for subscribing to Cyril's Christology, considering they believed (and still believe) that they are following Cyril's Christology.
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« Reply #139 on: December 15, 2005, 01:43:01 AM »

Matthew,

That we believe Chalcedon erred to whatever extent it did, on whatever issue it erred with respect to, is not proof that an Ecumenical Council can err. Let me let you in on a little secret: we (OO) do not accept Chalcedon as an Ecumenical Council. Surprise!ÂÂ  Roll Eyes Explain to me therefore, how referring us to a non-Ecumenical council validates your (OO) view that we are not to blindly follow divinely revealed and inspired Tradition?

If you’re trying to make a point to the EO’s, then you fail as well, for according to their perspective, Chalcedon is an infallible Ecumenical Council that did not err with respect to its treatment of us; they therefore do not, from their subjective perspective, follow erroneous Tradition blindly.

The question therefore comes down to: did Chalcedon in fact err or not? i.e. whose understanding with respect to what constitutes The Tradition (OO or EO) is more valid? — a question absolutely irrelevant to the subject of this thread. You’re sidetracking as usual. This question has already been thoroughly dealt with at the following link: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=7555.msg98515#msg98515

Leave it out of this thread.

CRCulver,

Above is a link to the starting point ofÂÂ  a recent and reasonably thorough debate on the issue of Chalcedon, between Bizzlebin (EO), Cyprian (EO), Salpy (OO) and myself (OO).
Bizzlebin,

Let us not beat a dead horse. I already dealt with all your issues at the afore-linked thread. Out of the 15 or so Coptic Bishops that attended, only 3 sold out and formally ascribed to Chalcedon. These three Bishops and their subsequent actions were ignored by the overwhelming majority of the Coptic Church, who undoubtedly remained faithful to St Dioscorus - hence, why the Coptic Church today is OO and not EO.

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« Reply #140 on: December 15, 2005, 04:02:39 AM »

Bizzlebin,

Let us not beat a dead horse. I already dealt with all your issues at the afore-linked thread. Out of the 15 or so Coptic Bishops that attended, only 3 sold out and formally ascribed to Chalcedon. These three Bishops and their subsequent actions were ignored by the overwhelming majority of the Coptic Church, who undoubtedly remained faithful to St Dioscorus - hence, why the Coptic Church today is OO and not EO.

Again, the point of my post is not who remained loyal to whom, but that the bishops that did continue at Chalcedon were NOT condemned for Cyrillian Christology.
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« Reply #141 on: December 15, 2005, 04:28:18 AM »

If these are not the events which transpired, why were Oriental Orthodox Christian excommunicated?

Dioscorus was excommunicated, and many simply chose to follow him.
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« Reply #142 on: December 15, 2005, 10:43:50 AM »

Well, said, EA-

   The point I wanted to make in my previous post to Matthew was that Universal Reconciliation seems to be no more a part of OO Tradition than it is of EO Tradition. So bringing up the fact that we disagree on whether Chalcedon was an ecumenical council or not doesn't really pertain to this thread. On the points that our Tradition differs we need to work for understanding at least and reconciliation at best. More likely than than not this will entail one side admitting to be the offending party (unless we both say our respective Fathers were equally wrong and declare ourselves equally right- which sort of formula would probably not be acceptable to many at all)
   But on issues where our Traditions agree, why would any member of our communions need to raise doubts  for himself? It is Tradition- seek no further. Certain Fathers and early Christian writers might be said to hold to Universal Reconciliation but this was before the Church, led by the Spirit, emerged from the scattered catacombs and united with one voice to proclaim the fullness of our Faith more clearly. The new situation of being free to communicate with Christians throughout the empire allowed the Church to deal with the very few and scattered instances where great minds such as Origen and Tertullian innocently went astray. We can apply St. Vincent of Lerins' canon to Universal Reconciliation: it fails the test of authentic Tradition in that it was never recieved "everywhere, always, and by all." There is no need now to rehash a settled issue by borrowing what is now almost exclusively a Unitarian
(quasi-) Protestant doctrine simply because we would prefer that to be the truth.
   Love for the lost is a virtue. Offering them the false hope of eventual reconciliation regardless of decisions they make in this life is not. Let us strive to win them to the undiluted fullness of the Faith and leave those who reject the message to the mercy and judgement of God Who will "render to each according to his works" in a manner beyond our comprehension.

In Christ,
Rd. David
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« Reply #143 on: December 16, 2005, 01:04:44 AM »

Actually, that is how you interpret what Chalcedon did; they never said that you're out for subscribing to Cyril's Christology, considering they believed (and still believe) that they are following Cyril's Christology.

Then what did Chalcedon do in order to excommunicate the Oriental Orthodox?
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« Reply #144 on: December 16, 2005, 03:29:35 AM »

Then what did Chalcedon do in order to excommunicate the Oriental Orthodox?

See my above post. Dioscorus was excmmunicated during Chalcedon, and others simply chose to follow him (more as time went on). OO as a whole was not excomminicated (unless I am mistaken), only Diocorus.
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« Reply #145 on: December 16, 2005, 03:14:12 PM »

dear all brethren and sisters:
I am coptoc-- oriental orthodox,
we not belive with the universal salvation and we anathemized origin
we not belive with the repentance after death as this thought lead to spritual coolness
thanks, IN ONE CHRIST [bible][/bible]
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« Reply #146 on: December 17, 2005, 02:31:34 AM »

See my above post. Dioscorus was excmmunicated during Chalcedon, and others simply chose to follow him (more as time went on). OO as a whole was not excomminicated (unless I am mistaken), only Diocorus.

Hmmm. I'll be starting a new thread on this.
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« Reply #147 on: December 18, 2005, 03:27:11 AM »

"Hell is not so much a place where God imprisons humans, as a place where humans, by misusing their free will, choose to imprison themselves. And even in hell the wicked are not deprived of the love of God, but by their own choice they experience as suffering what the saints experience as joy. 'The love of God will be an intolerable torment for those who have no acquired it within themselves.'
Hell exists as a final possibility, but several of the Fathers have none the less believed that in the end all will be reconciled to God. It is heretical to say that all must be saved, for this is to deny free will; but it is legitimate to hope that all may be saved. Until the Last Day comes, we must not despair of anyone's salvation, but must long and pray for the reconcilation of all without exception. 'What is a merciful heart?' asked Isaac the Syrian. 'It is a heart that burns with love for the whole of Creation, for humans, for the birds, for the beasts, for the demons, for all creatures.'
Gregory of Nyssa said that Christians may legitimately hope even for the redemption of the devil."
Bishop Timothy Ware, The Orthodox Church
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« Reply #148 on: December 19, 2005, 11:22:03 PM »

Matthew-
  Where in Bishop Kallistos' book is that passage, I would like to look it up........

In Christ,
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« Reply #149 on: December 20, 2005, 03:20:48 AM »

Where in Bishop Kallistos' book is that passage, I would like to look it up........

The entire book can be found online, and this is the specific section it is in (Part II: Faith and Worship, The Church of God): http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0804/_P1C.HTM
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« Reply #150 on: December 20, 2005, 05:10:39 AM »

I like this book, it's simple enough for the new-comer but informative enough for the member.
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« Reply #151 on: December 20, 2005, 10:11:33 AM »

Thank you for the link, Matthew- I'll be ruminating on that passage for a while I'm sure.

In Christ,
Rd. David
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« Reply #152 on: December 20, 2005, 06:47:10 PM »

It's definitely interesting.
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« Reply #153 on: December 25, 2005, 07:19:06 AM »

Eschatology and final restoration (apokatastasis) in Origen, Gregory of Nyssa and Maximos the Confessor

Andreas Andreopoulos

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http://www.theandros.com/restoration.html
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« Reply #154 on: December 29, 2005, 02:21:15 AM »

There is a difference between saying, in a prayerful and hopeful way, that a scumbag (e.g., me) might be saved; and saying that there might be a universal reconciliation. To hold out hope that all may be saved is quite a different thing than explicitly stating that all will be saved. One is intentionally vague, the other is intentionally precise. The very thing that allows His Grace to say things such as he did was the vagueness; had he said "I believe in universal reconciliation" he would have been made to renounce the belief or be brought before an ecclesiastical trial. Put vulgarly, flirting with heresy is different than putting your seal of approval on it and then publishing it around the world. The exact reasons that Saints like Gregory weren't condemned is exactly because all they did was flirt with the idea, and not go to the same extent that others (who ended up condemned) did.

That said (and perhaps appearing to contradict everything I just said), I have found myself leaning towards such a "hope" recently. I guess that makes me a heretical flirt.

Justin
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« Reply #155 on: December 29, 2005, 02:25:02 AM »

As has been shown in this thread, the doctrine of univsersal reconciliation has never been clearly and irrevocably defined as a heresy. Furthermore, the concept which I have in mind is probably much different from whatever was rejected in the past.
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« Reply #156 on: December 29, 2005, 11:08:06 AM »

If you want to get technical: the version of apocatastasis which was condemned was the Origenistic model which included the pre-existence and fall of our souls before birth as well as an ultimate reconciliation of all which wasn't stable- in Origen's system there could be an endless cycle of falls and reconciliations. This seems clear from reading the Second Council of Constantinople's condemnations of Origenism. The type of apocatastasis held by some of the other Fathers was a hope that all would be saved based on the belief that one day evil really would be obliterated through a co-operation of free-will and the healing punishments of an All-Knowing and All-Merciful Savior who had eternity to work with in bringing about His will that all be saved.
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« Reply #157 on: December 30, 2005, 12:07:56 AM »

1 Corinthians 15
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Peace.
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« Reply #158 on: August 12, 2006, 01:45:23 AM »

Sergius Bulgakov was a Russian Orthodox priest who believed in Universal Reconciliation:

"Bulgakov's deeply original and controversial eschatology remains largely unexplored in modern scholarship. Following the universalist insights of Origen and Gregory of Nyssa, Bulgakov construed hell as a state of self-inflicted torment necessary to purify the resurrected individual from evil. His arguments against the eternity of hell are as follows: the permanence of hell entails the eternal dualism of good and evil; the grace and mercy of God cannot be permanently resisted by free creatures; perpetual punishment is not commensurable with the finite crimes committed in time; the idea of perpetual retributive punishment leads to an anthropomorphic and unworthy image of a vengeful God; the ontological and moral unity of humanity does not allow for the eternal separation of humankind into the two separate groups of the saved and of the permanently damned. This article lays out Bulgakov's vision of the universal salvation; investigates the roots of this vision in patristic thought; places Bulgakov's proposal in the context of the nineteenth—twentieth-century Russian eschatology; and offers a critical evaluation of Bulgakov's arguments against the eternity of hell."
http://jts.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/57/1/110

Peace.
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« Reply #159 on: August 12, 2006, 08:18:02 AM »

No doubt one reason that ROCOR condemned him.
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« Reply #160 on: August 12, 2006, 01:04:00 PM »

ROCOR, though they have my respect, isn't always right.
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« Reply #161 on: August 12, 2006, 01:23:06 PM »

There is a difference between saying, in a prayerful and hopeful way, that a scumbag (e.g., me) might be saved; and saying that there might be a universal reconciliation. To hold out hope that all may be saved is quite a different thing than explicitly stating that all will be saved. One is intentionally vague, the other is intentionally precise. The very thing that allows His Grace to say things such as he did was the vagueness; had he said "I believe in universal reconciliation" he would have been made to renounce the belief or be brought before an ecclesiastical trial. Put vulgarly, flirting with heresy is different than putting your seal of approval on it and then publishing it around the world. The exact reasons that Saints like Gregory weren't condemned is exactly because all they did was flirt with the idea, and not go to the same extent that others (who ended up condemned) did.

That said (and perhaps appearing to contradict everything I just said), I have found myself leaning towards such a "hope" recently. I guess that makes me a heretical flirt.

Justin

But a very polite one at that.

This thread is too hard to follow and a bit all over the place.

This is the wierdest one I have ever seen.
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« Reply #162 on: August 12, 2006, 10:38:26 PM »

Mat: why the hell are you resurrecting this thread?  And can you please answer the question directly and to the point.
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« Reply #163 on: August 12, 2006, 11:35:25 PM »

I found it interesting that a modern Orthodox theologian supported universal reconcilation.
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« Reply #164 on: August 13, 2006, 03:47:35 AM »

The Oriental Orthodox Church does not teach universal reconcilation either. But could you please at least respond to this Orthodox source:


"There is no "place" of torment, or even a "place" apart from God, because there is no "place" at all; you are outside of time and space. The "place" is actually a condition of either punishment ("hell") or paradise ("heaven") depending on how you experience the presence of God and His Uncreated Engergies.

Consider a person who hates God, and anything to do with religion, and has done nothing but pursued his own self-centered desires all his life. It would be far more terrifying, and painful, to spend eternity in the fiery embrace of God's almighty and divine love with no escape, than to be far from Him.

Experiencing God's presence and His in-filling transforming Energies in glory or in torment, as Paradise or as Punishment, is the heaven and hell of the Bible. Not something God did to us, but rather something we did to ourselves. God unconditionally pours out His love on all, WHETHER WE WANT IT OR NOT, whether we are ready for it or not, when we enter the afterlife. This is why the Gospel or "good news" of Jesus Christ should be shared with all people, of all nations, in all tongues. For there is nothing to fear from God's perfect love, since love casts out all fear.

However, it is not totally wrong to understand the after life as "type" of Heaven and Hell. Because from each individual's perspective, it will not be perceived as the same "place", but rather as either torment and darkness you can not escape, or as the paradise you have always longed for. For those judged, they will experience God's presence as eternal darkness and torment. Though it is very important to keep in mind what is the cause of either of these conditions, or one could reach very wrong conclusions about the nature of God, as they have in western theologies. To misrepresent the nature of a loving God would cause one to conclude that it was God's intention to punish his creation. Indeed, one blasphemes the reputation of the God of the Bible when you make him into an angry vengeful god that punishes His creation. The cause of the torment is the poor choices that we make, not God. If one thinks of these two different "places" as conditions that we choose to be in, rather than "compartments" God puts us in, it would be more accurate.

And it will certainly be "paradise" to finally experience His Divine Love up close and in person for those who seek it. It is all in the perception.

Such is the nature of a loving God. For God is God."
http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html


Why are you ignoring it?

A lot of this makes sense to me.

What doesn't make sense to me is how Ghandi could have really been seeking Truth and could have really known what love is ... and yet denied that Jesus Christ was the only Son of the only Living God, and was indeed, as He said He is, the only means to our salvation from spiritual darkness.


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« Reply #165 on: August 13, 2006, 04:43:09 AM »

There is a difference between saying, in a prayerful and hopeful way, that a scumbag (e.g., me) might be saved; and saying that there might be a universal reconciliation. To hold out hope that all may be saved is quite a different thing than explicitly stating that all will be saved. One is intentionally vague, the other is intentionally precise. The very thing that allows His Grace to say things such as he did was the vagueness; had he said "I believe in universal reconciliation" he would have been made to renounce the belief or be brought before an ecclesiastical trial. Put vulgarly, flirting with heresy is different than putting your seal of approval on it and then publishing it around the world. The exact reasons that Saints like Gregory weren't condemned is exactly because all they did was flirt with the idea, and not go to the same extent that others (who ended up condemned) did.

That said (and perhaps appearing to contradict everything I just said), I have found myself leaning towards such a "hope" recently. I guess that makes me a heretical flirt.

Justin

That's right.  It is not heresy to believe in the POTENTIALITY (as opposed to the CERTAINTY that opposes free will) of Universal Reconciliation. 

I for one consider myself a Potential Universalist.

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« Reply #166 on: August 13, 2006, 08:49:50 AM »

Letter XCVIII. ---- OF MAR SAINT SEVEROS FROM THE 5th LETTER OF THE 4th BOOK OF THOSE AFTER EXILE, ADDRESSED TO CAESARIA THE HYPATISSA.

But to the question which your excellency's magnificence has asked me by letter I return an easy answer, that for my part I have never accepted or expressed agreement with those who speak of an apokatastasis, and an end to the judgment involved in the torments that are threatened us in the future world, and the man who says that he has a letter of mine which proclaims this opinion manifestly lies. Therefore I praised your God-loving magnificence for asking for such a letter to be shown to you; a letter which the man who concocted it necessarily set himself falsely to show to be my composition. Those who hold such an opinion, wishing to accomplish their desires, as if forsooth on the basis of plausible suppositions, make use of arguments that are gratifying to the hearers, saying that it is unbecomingto or unworthy |371 of God, and far removed from his mercifulness, that the man who has sinned for 50 or 100 years in this world should endure torments for unending ages, forgetting this, that God's laws and those which, prevail among men think fit to requite sins according to the intention of the sinner, and one may hear even wise men outside saying of certain persons who have done foul deeds and acts that are not permitted, «This man deserves to die not once but many times»975. But, when a man hears as we do that God who became incarnate and was humanized without variation for our salvation, and who for this reason came down from heaven and conversed with us plainly threatens 976 fire that is not quenched and an undying worm 977, and 978 makes light of it, how does he not deserve, if it is possible to say so, to be condemned |372 twice over to 979 endless torment? If a man live 100 years or more in this present world and spend such a period in vanity, it is certain that this man, if he were allowed to live this same temporal life 980 without end 981, would not cease from his eternal 980 greed and wantonness 982. How therefore will this man in accordance with his disposition not justly 980 be tormented without end? Even the very men who introduce an apokatastasis 983 say of sinners that they will be tormented for many 984 and long periods so to speak 985, and then afterwards will be purified and admitted to clemency and attain to the promised blessedness. But they 986 forget that their human reasonings |373 themselves show God to be unrighteous in his judgments 987. If a man lives 988 in sin 50 or 80 years, but 989 endures torments many long generations, it is again apparent on their principle that this is not worthy of God's mercifulness 990, to extend the period of torment beyond the time of the life in sins, If God agreed with the reasonings of those who think thus 991, the man who sins for 50 years should endure torment for 50 years, and it 992 should not be thus long extended over many generations, as they say 993. For our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ also, in the holy words of his preaching, when |374 separating the righteous from the sinners, said, «These shall go to eternal torment, and the righteous to eternal life» 994, and with regard to both the classes 995, that of the former and that of the latter, he spoke in exactly the same fashion of an equality without distinction, applying the word ' eternal' to both without distinction. Basil the great among teachers of the truth shows this clearly in the teaching composed by him in the form of question and answer addressed to the brethren of the convents; and it is the 219th question, which is expressed as follows:

«The brethren say 996. 

'If 997 one shall be beaten with many stripes and another with few, how |375 say some that there is no end to the sentence of those who are tormented?'

Basil 998 says.

Points which are matters of dispute and seen to be obscurely expressed m various places of the Holy Scriptures are elucidated by clear statements in other places. Since therefore our Lord says at one time, 'These shall go into eternal torment 999', and at another dismisses some to 'the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels', and at another mentions 'the gehenna of fire', uttering further the words,1000 'Where their worm dieth not, and their fire is not quenched', and again said before through the prophet about certain |376 men, 1001 'Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched'; while these and similar expressions, are often 1002 used in the divine Scriptures, this also was brought about by the machination of the devil, in order that men, forgetting these and similar decrees of our Lord, might presume to sin without restraint, persuading themselves that there is an end to judgment. For, if it is possible for there to be 1003 an end to eternal judgment, there will assuredly also be an end to eternal life. But, if we do not consent to think this with regard to 1004 life, what plausibility is there in our assigning 1005 an end to eternal judgment? For the addition of the word 'eternal' is made equally in both cases. 'These shall go into eternal |377 judgment, and the righteous into eternal life'. These things therefore being thus admitted, we must know that the words 'He shall be beaten with many stripes' and 'shall be beaten with few' are not an end, but signify a difference of torment. For, if God is an upright judge, not only to the good but also to the evil 1006, and requites each according to his deeds, it is possible for one to be in the fire that is not quenched 1007, burning either less or more than the other, and another in the worm that dies not, both one that hurts little and one that hurts much 1008, each as he deserves, and another in gehenna that has a variety of torments, and another in outer darkness, and that there |378 is a place where a man is found amidst weeping only, and there is a place where he is amidst gnashing of teeth also from the severity of the pains 1009. But the outer darkness signifies that there is in truth an inner darkness also.1010 And the words used in the Proverbs 1011 'at the bottom of Sheol 1012' signify that there are persons in Sheol and not at the bottom of it, because their torment is smaller 1013. And this is depicted now also in bodily afflictions. For there is aman who is in a fever together with other pains, and another |379 who is in a fever only, and the latter is not like the former, and another has no fever, but is troubled by pain in some limb 1014, and one again either less or more than another. But this expression 'much' or 'little' is employed by our Lord in accordance with customary usage, as are also many other similar phrases. For we know that this form of speech is frequently adopted even with regard to those who are suffering from one disease 1015. For example, in the case of a man who has a fever only, or has pain in the eye only 1016 we 1017 say in astonishment ' How much he has suffered! ' or ' What anguish he has endured!' Accordingly the expression 'shall be beaten with many' |380 and 'with few', I say again, stands not in the extent of the time and the shortness1018, but in the difference of the torment» 1019. These things this great ruler and shepherd of rational souls Basil taught and stated with great completeness.1020 And Gregory, who became bishop of Nazianzus, himself in the homily of defence thinks that the future torment is endless, teaching thus: «But for us, the salvation of whose blessed and immortal soul is in danger, which will be undyingly tormented or glorified1021 by reason of wickedness or of virtue, how great do you think should the contest be1022?»1023 And John in the 66th homily1024 of the commentary on the Gospel of Matthew |381 states things consonant with these as follows: «For all these reasons accordingly let us first pay the taxes; for it is indeed very easy, and the reward is greater, and there is great abundance of profit, and worse is the torture if we do not understand, and a torture that has no end»4. And the same again in the 79th exposition when speaking of the Passion referred to the kingdom, and to the endless torment. And in the 82nd about the man who approaches the communion of the holy mysteries in a careless mood and without caution he gives teaching in the following words: «He who approaches after he has sinned is worse than a demoniac; for the: latter because they have a demon do not receive punishment, but the |382 former, because they approach unworthily, are delivered to undying torment 1025» 1026. And at the end of the commentary on the epistle to the Ephesians he 1027 expressed himself thus: «For a man to be burnt 1028 and not consumed, and to be perpetually gnawed by a 1029 worm is indestructible 1030 destruction, as happened to the blessed Job, who was in process of destruction and did not perish for a considerable time, but was constantly suffering and wasting away, while he scraped off putrid matter from his body 1031 for a long time. Something similar will happen to the soul at that time, when the 1032 worms surround and gnaw it, not for two years 1033 nor for ten nor for a hundred nor |383 for myriads 1034, but for years without end; for 'their worm', he says, 'shall not die'» 1035. The wise Cyril 1036 also in the 1st book of the commentary on the Gospel of John said: "We ought not to be ungrateful to God but on the contrary 1037 to thank him because by means of the Resurrection from the dead he has appointed for us torment that does not pass away 1038»1039.
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"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
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« Reply #167 on: August 13, 2006, 08:28:36 PM »

I stand by my original position. It is hard to imagine that someone could be totally immersed in the light of God and yet curse Him for eternity.
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« Reply #168 on: August 13, 2006, 09:00:19 PM »

Matthew,

I'm not convinced. But it sounds very nice, and you sound sincere.
Thank God you don't have to answer to any of us.

In Christ!
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« Reply #169 on: August 13, 2006, 11:30:29 PM »

The Orthodox doctine is that in the afterlife, there is no time and space, all are completely immersed in the light of God. Those who cursed God in this life, however, will find suffering in the same presence that others find joy. But like a stubborn child, these lost souls hopefully will eventually come around.
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« Reply #170 on: August 14, 2006, 01:20:23 AM »

The Orthodox doctine is that in the afterlife, there is no time and space, all are completely immersed in the light of God. Those who cursed God in this life, however, will find suffering in the same presence that others find joy. But like a stubborn child, these lost souls hopefully will eventually come around.

Just out of curiousity ... how does one "eventually come around" if there is no time and no space?


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« Reply #171 on: August 14, 2006, 02:30:48 AM »

Just out of curiosity ... how does one "eventually come around" if there is no time and no space?

The adorable, irresistible love of God.
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« Reply #172 on: August 14, 2006, 02:38:40 AM »

The adorable, irresistible love of God.

That would explain the luring force, but how does one resolve the contradiction between the requirement of time implied by the word "eventually" and the fact that time does not exist at this point?
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« Reply #173 on: August 14, 2006, 02:43:05 AM »

That would explain the luring force, but how does one resolve the contradiction between the requirement of time implied by the word "eventually" and the fact that time does not exist at this point?

Heaven is beyond time given that there is no beginning and no end. That does not mean, however, that there aren't perceptable moments. Otherwise, would what there be to experience?
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« Reply #174 on: August 14, 2006, 02:44:58 AM »

The Orthodox doctine is that in the afterlife, there is no time and space, all are completely immersed in the light of God. Those who cursed God in this life, however, will find suffering in the same presence that others find joy. But like a stubborn child, these lost souls hopefully will eventually come around.

Then this statement would need to be adjusted.
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« Reply #175 on: August 14, 2006, 02:50:52 AM »

The Orthodox doctine is that in the afterlife, there is no time and space, all are completely immersed in the light of God. Those who cursed God in this life, however, will find suffering in the same presence that others find joy. But like a stubborn child, these lost souls hopefully will eventually come around.

So would these be people whose names were NOT written in the book of life?
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« Reply #176 on: August 14, 2006, 02:52:50 AM »

So would these be people whose names were NOT written in the book of life?

Who am I to know the mind of God? Those not in the book today, may be written tomorrow.
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« Reply #177 on: August 14, 2006, 03:07:23 AM »

Who am I to know the mind of God? Those not in the book today, may be written tomorrow.

If all are written in the Book of Life, then what was the point of John saying in Revelations, "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Wouldn't that be a moot point? A pointless statement? It could only serve to mislead people into thinking that some would not end up with their names written there. Don't you think?
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« Reply #178 on: August 14, 2006, 03:14:12 AM »

Please read this Orthodox explanation of the afterlife, supported by Scriptural quotations and patristics:
http://www.aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html

Though it does not endorse universal reconciliation, it does leave room for such speculation.

God himself is the lake of fire. On the last day, all will be thrown in. The question is, will that fire be for you a blessing or a curse?

Peace.
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He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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« Reply #179 on: August 14, 2006, 03:31:24 AM »

Please read this Orthodox explanation of the afterlife, supported by Scriptural quotations and patristics:
http://www.aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html

Though it does not endorse universal reconciliation, it does leave room for such speculation.

God himself is the lake of fire. On the last day, all will be thrown in. The question is, will that fire be for you a blessing or a curse?

Peace.

But, with all due respect, you have evaded the question.

Even if all are thrown into the lake of fire, if you acknowledge that some are thrown in as a result of not having their names written in the Book of Life, then you must deal with another passage in Revelation which, in describing the nature of the "Holy City" that "does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light" (the light into which you say time and space are immersed), goes on to say that "Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."?
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