Author Topic: Epstein  (Read 671 times)

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Offline biro

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Epstein
« on: August 12, 2019, 03:12:03 PM »
Jeffrey Epstein killed himself in prison.

Jesus said we must pray for our enemies, but how can we pray for a person like that?

In the book of Genesis, Dinah was raped and her brothers chased down the culprits and killed them. For an example.

What are we supposed to do?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 03:12:35 PM by biro »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Epstein
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2019, 03:56:11 PM »
The Book of Genesis is in the OT - eye for an eye, etc.

Christ, taught us to turn the other cheek, forgive, and pray for our enemies.  Only then would be the "children of God".

He, and we, will answer before God for our actions, words, and inactions, etc.

You ask what are we supposed to do?

We pray that the Lord forgives him his sins (heaven is boundless, there's no reason to wish hell on anyone), and we pray the Lord heals the individuals he hurt, and educates the public to the atrocities humanity commits... in the hopes that others will not fall victim, will not support when they realize such is happening, and will work to stop the abuse.

May the Lord have mercy on us all... because we are all guilty of something.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Epstein
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2019, 05:31:12 PM »
You're right, this is hard. One might force themselves to pray for him, at least with the right words and the right posture, but holding a sincere heart through it is harder...

I love St. Silouan the Athonite exactly for how extremely he took the principle of love and prayer for our enemies.

Quote
I remember a conversation between him and a certain hermit who declared with evident satisfaction,

‘God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire.’

Obviously upset, The Staretz said,

‘Tell me, supposing you went to paradise, and there you looked down and saw someone burning in hell-fire – would you feel happy?’

‘It can’t be helped. It would be their own fault,’ said the hermit.

The Staretz answered him in a sorrowful countenance:

‘Love could not bear that,’ he said. ‘We must pray for all.’
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Epstein
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2019, 09:25:38 PM »
It's part of the central scandal of Christianity - God loves everyone who was created in His image, and this includes Jeffrey Epstein. Praying for Epstein's repose seems like an imperative, difficult as it is to square with human justice and our sense of revulsion at his crimes.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 09:25:55 PM by MalpanaGiwargis »
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Epstein
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2019, 09:43:36 PM »
"If your enemy falls, do not rejoice over him, and do not exalt yourself at his stumbling; because the Lord will see this, and it will not please Him, and He will turn His anger from him."  Proverbs 24:17

Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

Offline Eamonomae

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Re: Epstein
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2019, 10:02:23 PM »
Jeffrey Epstein killed himself in prison.

Jesus said we must pray for our enemies, but how can we pray for a person like that?

In the book of Genesis, Dinah was raped and her brothers chased down the culprits and killed them. For an example.

What are we supposed to do?

After being scandalized by Him - such that Caiaphas ripped off his vestments, mocking Him, spitting at Him, fashioning a Crown of Thorns and forcing it down on His head, flagellating Him several times, stripping Him down naked in public for public humiliation, forcing Him to carry a tree after all of this to His execution spot, pounding nails into His hands and feet on this tree, and putting the tree up such that He would suffocate in a grueling fashion due to pressure, while others would continue to mock Him, saying things like "If you are truly the Messiah, why don't you come down from there?", Jesus still said "Father, forgive them, for they no not what they do." Most of all, we must remember the Holy Virgin Mary, who in sorrow watching her baby boy dying and mocked in such a way, in her heart forgave them.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 10:05:21 PM by Eamonomae »
Lord have mercy

Offline Eamonomae

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Re: Epstein
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2019, 10:05:25 PM »

Remember, every single human being, no matter how evil they can get, are still made in the Image and Likeness of God, and no matter how corrupt they become, their evil pales in the comparison to the Love of God; Saint Isaac the Syrian said that every single sin when combined together compared to God is like a handful of sand thrown into the ocean.

Plus, even though the circumstances are different - Epstein is dead and Deborah's rapist wasn't - even though Israel had a pretty rigorous moral and legal standard to follow for God, it was still imperfect and flawed, as Jesus makes clear when He talks about Moses's permissiveness of divorce.
Lord have mercy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Epstein
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2019, 11:13:08 PM »
NO POLITICS
Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline Tallitot

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Re: Epstein
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2019, 08:00:09 AM »
He could of at least had the decency to wait until after the trial so he could testify against his co-conspirators. Now most of them won't have to answer for what they did.
Proverbs 22:7

Offline Richmond

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Re: Epstein
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2019, 10:05:24 AM »
The Book of Genesis is in the OT - eye for an eye, etc.

Christ, taught us to turn the other cheek, forgive, and pray for our enemies.  Only then would be the "children of God".

He, and we, will answer before God for our actions, words, and inactions, etc.

You ask what are we supposed to do?

We pray that the Lord forgives him his sins (heaven is boundless, there's no reason to wish hell on anyone), and we pray the Lord heals the individuals he hurt, and educates the public to the atrocities humanity commits... in the hopes that others will not fall victim, will not support when they realize such is happening, and will work to stop the abuse.

May the Lord have mercy on us all... because we are all guilty of something.

How does "turn the other cheek" mean we should seek justice or resist evil? Doesn't it simply mean that we allow ourselves to be victims of unchecked evil?

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Epstein
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2019, 10:06:42 AM »
He could of at least had the decency to wait until after the trial so he could testify against his co-conspirators. Now most of them won't have to answer for what they did.

That assumes it truly was a suicide, and not a murder.  Only God knows.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Online Luke

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Re: Epstein
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2019, 10:53:53 AM »
In the book of Genesis, Dinah was raped and her brothers chased down the culprits and killed them.

But Jacob (Israel) was not pleased with their response:

"Then Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, “You have brought trouble on me by making me odious among the inhabitants of the land, among the Canaanites and the Perizzites; and my men being few in number, they will gather together against me and attack me and I will be destroyed, I and my household.” -- Genesis 34:30, NASB.

"Simeon and Levi are brothers; Their swords are implements of violence.  “Let my soul not enter into their council;
Let not my glory be united with their assembly; Because in their anger they slew men, And in their self-will they lamed oxen.
“Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce; And their wrath, for it is cruel. I will disperse them in Jacob, And scatter them in Israel." -- Genesis 49: 5-7, NASB.

Offline platypus

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Re: Epstein
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2019, 08:49:21 PM »
How does "turn the other cheek" mean we should seek justice or resist evil?

It doesn't - it also doesn't mean that we shouldn't seek justice.

Doesn't it simply mean that we allow ourselves to be victims of unchecked evil?

Whether or not we should allow ourselves to be victims, I think depends on the circumstance. Even Christ didn't allow himself to be killed the first time people tried to. He ran away from those who tried to stone him in the 8th and 10th chapters of John's gospel. But when it was time, he allowed himself to be killed. So I don't think one could realisticly interpret his saying to mean we should always allow people to harm us.

And whether or not we should allow others to be harmed is a different question entirely. I think the whole of the Old Testament law speaks to the importance of protecting the innocent from the guilty. And in Romans 13 St. Paul speaks of the importance of obeying the government, which leads me to believe God expects us to cooperate in the administration of justice.
"Eternal truth finds no favorable soil where one encounters at every turn the skeptical, sarcastic query 'what is truth,' where life insurance takes the place of eternal hope." -Hieromonk Antonius

Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. -Ecclesiastes 12:8

Offline hecma925

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Re: Epstein
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2019, 10:10:45 PM »
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline CooperDog

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Re: Epstein
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2019, 10:17:51 PM »
Killed himself?

I doubt he killed himself

Offline hecma925

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Re: Epstein
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2019, 11:07:28 PM »
Killed himself?

I doubt he killed himself

What do you mean?
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Epstein
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2019, 12:27:01 AM »
Thread locked pending review.
Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite