Author Topic: Cardinal Robert: St. Cyril's letter, taught Filioque, approved by Five Councils.  (Read 7108 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Vanhyo

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,150
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: BOC
Quote
Not an action ? I am afraid you do not have a choice here, it is dogmatically defined at the sixth ecumenical council:

The Human Nature or in the terminology of the Holy Fathers, the "flesh of the Lord" united with the Godhead, was enriched by Divine powers without losing anything of its own attributes, and became a participant of the Divine dignity but not of the Divine Nature. The flesh being deified, was not destroyed, but continued in its own state and nature - as the council explains it
This preserves the distinction between Divinity and humanity within the Hypostatic Union and refuted Monophysitism on the point of the nature’s mixing. It’s not related to essence-energies

The hypostatic union of the two natures of the Lord is energetic, otherwise the two natures will become one supernature.

It’s is truly God because of transubstantiation. That is the substance of the Eucharist is the body, blood, soul and Divinity of God, not a reflection. It’s is him present. Not an action.

Okey then, if you take Holy Communion and energy is the same as the essence, then the essence of God is added to you ?
I don’t like to say added. Rather we participate in the essence of God finitely. Thus, we are truly deified yet because of our participation’s finititude, we do not become God who is infinite.
Clever, but that is not what trent teaches:

the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind,[36] and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills,[37] and according to each one's disposition and cooperation."

If according to papal doctrine: if the justice of God is His essence and we are not JUST by that which he himself is JUST... then we are just by ..... created grace.

You most certainly shocked me by your innovative opinion, it is just not quite in line with trent so i have to disregard it as private thing.

Offline Wandile

  • Peter the Roman
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,180
  • Love God with All your heart and all your Soul
  • Faith: Catholic Church - Roman rite
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria
But your essence is what you are. It’s your “is-ness”. God’s essence is divinity/Godliness. Thus anything else that is not his essence cannot possibly be divine unless it somehow is part of his essence. If there are other things which are God but not his essence, at the very least there is composition in God and at worst (logically) there are multiple Gods... I still have not seen an explanation how we are deified if we are not really experiencing God but rather his which aren’t really him. 

The west teaches we will participate in God and see him ass he is. We truly inerecat with him. Yet we don’t become Gods because of our limited nature, can only experience God to the extent of our being this not becoming gods yet still deified.

Wandile, I'm just curious to know if you believe the Eastern Catholic churches are in error for following the theology of essence/energies distinction and for venerating St. Gregory Palamas?

Some have tried to reconcile St Thomas with St Gregory and thus neither side a wrong. As far as I have seen (regarding the representations of St Gregory’s thought from EO), I think it’s wrong and thus they (Eastern Catholics who hold this view) are wrong. Bear in mind not all Eastern Catholics hold to the Palamite outlook as not all Eastern Catholics are Byzantine. The church has not ruled on this matter so it is permissible to hold either side without issue.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 01:58:38 PM by Wandile »
” Where there is no love, pour love in, and you will draw love out.”
- St John of the Cross


Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for us. Amen

Offline Wandile

  • Peter the Roman
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,180
  • Love God with All your heart and all your Soul
  • Faith: Catholic Church - Roman rite
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria
Quote
Not an action ? I am afraid you do not have a choice here, it is dogmatically defined at the sixth ecumenical council:

The Human Nature or in the terminology of the Holy Fathers, the "flesh of the Lord" united with the Godhead, was enriched by Divine powers without losing anything of its own attributes, and became a participant of the Divine dignity but not of the Divine Nature. The flesh being deified, was not destroyed, but continued in its own state and nature - as the council explains it
This preserves the distinction between Divinity and humanity within the Hypostatic Union and refuted Monophysitism on the point of the nature’s mixing. It’s not related to essence-energies

The hypostatic union of the two natures of the Lord is energetic, otherwise the two natures will become one supernature.
This is something I just completely disagree with. The council is simply speaking of how the union is effected yet no mixture happens. The union is a union of personage. In that there is one Christ with two natures. No council has ever defined how this occurs, only that it occurs and how it exits (no mixture). Everything else, you’re extrapolating.

Quote
It’s is truly God because of transubstantiation. That is the substance of the Eucharist is the body, blood, soul and Divinity of God, not a reflection. It’s is him present. Not an action.

Okey then, if you take Holy Communion and energy is the same as the essence, then the essence of God is added to you ?
I don’t like to say added. Rather we participate in the essence of God finitely. Thus, we are truly deified yet because of our participation’s finititude, we do not become God who is infinite.
Clever, but that is not what trent teaches:

the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind,[36] and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills,[37] and according to each one's disposition and cooperation."

If according to papal doctrine: if the justice of God is His essence and we are not JUST by that which he himself is JUST... then we are just by ..... created grace.
This is so wrong... I’m not even sure you know what created grace is but this is besides the point.

Your reading of this passage is completely wrong. What you are reading from this is not anything to do with matter of essence-energies. It’s speaking of of a conceptual difference for theologians reading passage. The justice of God by which he himself is just refers to Gods just nature and why he is never unjust as a Judge. Where as what justifies man, (that is, spiritual renewal by importation of grace) refers to the process of God making us spiritually alive. It’s a distinction in Chapter 7 of the Sixth session to avoid confusion on what is being spoken about before they go on to describe how a man is justified (the re-creation of the sinner through the infusion of sanctifying grace).

Lastly when you quote catholic sources please reference what it is you are quoting so I can find it easily.

Quote
You most certainly shocked me by your innovative opinion, it is just not quite in line with trent so i have to disregard it as private thing.
No novelty. It’s straight Thomistic. That man partakes/participates/experiences God truly but only finitely. Finitely, not in the object (God) being experienced but rather in the subject experiencing the object.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 02:37:36 PM by Wandile »
” Where there is no love, pour love in, and you will draw love out.”
- St John of the Cross


Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for us. Amen

Offline Eamonomae

  • The Prodigal Son, except I do it at least twice a week
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,221
  • Saint Thomas, pray for us.
  • Faith: Unsure Liturgical Christian
But your essence is what you are. It’s your “is-ness”. God’s essence is divinity/Godliness. Thus anything else that is not his essence cannot possibly be divine unless it somehow is part of his essence. If there are other things which are God but not his essence, at the very least there is composition in God.

What you said is precisely what I'm confused at - if there is composition in God, wouldn't said composition be the Divine Essence in toto? And why wouldn't it be? After all, it can be argued that humans are composite via the fact that we have flesh and a soul, but isn't the fact that we have a flesh and a soul what it means to be human, and therefore, having a flesh and a soul is a part of the human essence?

Offline Eamonomae

  • The Prodigal Son, except I do it at least twice a week
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,221
  • Saint Thomas, pray for us.
  • Faith: Unsure Liturgical Christian
But your essence is what you are. It’s your “is-ness”. God’s essence is divinity/Godliness. Thus anything else that is not his essence cannot possibly be divine unless it somehow is part of his essence. If there are other things which are God but not his essence, at the very least there is composition in God and at worst (logically) there are multiple Gods... I still have not seen an explanation how we are deified if we are not really experiencing God but rather his which aren’t really him. 

The west teaches we will participate in God and see him ass he is. We truly inerecat with him. Yet we don’t become Gods because of our limited nature, can only experience God to the extent of our being this not becoming gods yet still deified.

Wandile, I'm just curious to know if you believe the Eastern Catholic churches are in error for following the theology of essence/energies distinction and for venerating St. Gregory Palamas?

Some have tried to reconcile St Thomas with St Gregory and thus neither side a wrong. As far as I have seen (regarding the representations of St Gregory’s thought from EO), I think it’s wrong and thus they (Eastern Catholics who hold this view) are wrong. Bear in mind not all Eastern Catholics hold to the Palamite outlook as not all Eastern Catholics are Byzantine. The church has not ruled on this matter so it is permissible to hold either side without issue.

Some? The Byzantine Catholic Churches commemorate Saint Gregory Palamas as a Saint officially during the Liturgy, and every Byzantine Catholic Church that I've seen on the topic of Saint Gregory Palamas has argued that there is explicit compatibility between Thomas Aquinas and Gregory Palamas, while pretending such objections to the view don't exist and "quit breaking our ecumenical spirit, bruv!"
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 02:42:45 PM by Eamonomae »

Offline Vanhyo

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,150
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: BOC

Offline Xavier

  • Slave of Love consecrated to the Hearts of Jesus and Mary through the Holy Family of Joseph, Jesus and Mary!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,181
  • For the sake of Jesus' Passion, Lord have Mercy.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Faith: Ecumenical Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: The Pope - but my heart is for Re-Union!
I don't have the time for a detailed response right now, but if I'm understanding correctly, the most common objection our Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters have to the Filioque doctrine is that, even though the Spirit, in His Procession from the Father, is in some way mediated through the Son (St. Maximus, St. Tarasius) yet He is not so Hypostatically and Personally, but only Energetically and by way of Grace.

Well I wrote an article just published on 1 Pet5 about that objection. While it's a very reasonable objection, here's my limited understanding as to why imho, the doctrine is not defeated by the objection:

Objection II: Even if the Holy Spirit’s eternal procession from the Father is mediated through the Son, it doesn’t seem to follow that He proceeds through the Son. It could be that it is merely His energetic manifestation that happens through the Son, but not that His divine hypostasis receives essence from Father through Son.

There are only two processions in the Holy Trinity, using “procession” in a broad sense (as both St. Augustine and St. Cyril do) to explain it.

(1) The eternal procession specifically called generation, by which the Person of the Father is distinguished from the Person of the Son, so that He Who begat is one Person, and He Who is begotten is another. (This second objection is almost like someone saying the Son’s hypostasis is not eternally begotten of the Father.)

(2) And the eternal procession specifically called spiration, by which the Person of the Holy Spirit is distinguished from both the Person of the Father and the Person of the Son. For He from Whom He proceeds is One Person, He through Whom He proceeds is the Second Person, and He Who proceeds is the Eternal Third Person.

This is the sense in which Pope St. Leo the Great explains it in the source cited above. Since the hypostases are distinguished, it is clearly hypostatic procession.

The answer to energetic procession is as follows: there is only One Grace and One Energy of the Three Divine Persons. For, e.g., the Grace of the Holy Spirit is not distinct from the Grace of the Son, but is identical to it. Therefore, when Son and Spirit are distinguished, as by St. Cyril, it must be Persons Who are spoken of."

From: https://onepeterfive.com/filioque-separated-east/ Thoughts?

Will be sure to get back to the rest later. Grace be with all. God bless.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 02:43:02 PM by Xavier »
"My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with your most precious Blood and your sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the intention of your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Together with my life, I place at your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices ... https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Pray the Rosary every day to obtain Peace for the world"