Author Topic: Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy  (Read 395 times)

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Offline Almost_Orthodox

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Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy
« on: July 07, 2019, 12:12:15 PM »
I am posting this in this section because, as my name states, I am almost Orthodox and still in the examination stage.  One thing that I find hard to understand is the miracles that have occurred outside of Orthodoxy. It would seem to me that if Orthodoxy is the Church, miracles should only occur in Orthodoxy. To allow those holding heretical opinions (Immaculate Conception, Indulgences, Salvation by "faith alone" etc) is a real stumbling block to people such as myself. I look at the miracles occurring outside Orthodox and wonder why they happen.

Would someone care to explain why God would do miracles in the name of Jesus Christ through heretical bodies?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2019, 12:40:33 PM »
Mark 9.38-41.
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

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Re: Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2019, 03:47:02 PM »


Would someone care to explain why God would do miracles in the name of Jesus Christ through heretical bodies?


Because not everything is related to Orthodox Christianity.
The first 5 books of the To-Rah is Genesis,Exodus,Leviticus,Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2019, 04:28:48 PM »
God is not limited.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Almost_Orthodox

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Re: Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2019, 08:01:15 PM »
I agree that God is not limited, but that is not the issue I am trying to solve.  The working of miracles outside of the Orthodox Church makes it look like other bodies have a valid claim to being the Church (I think of Roman Catholicism here in particular).  As one who wishes to find the true faith and enter the true Church, the miracles outside of Orthodoxy give me pause before I make my decision to "Swim the Bosphorus" so to speak.

I just find it hard to understand why our Lord would allow for such confusion in the minds of those who are honestly seeking.

But then again, I'm pretty dumb.

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Re: Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2019, 08:07:42 PM »
Define "miracle".
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2019, 09:13:32 PM »
As one who wishes to find the true faith and enter the true Church, the miracles outside of Orthodoxy give me pause before I make my decision to "Swim the Bosphorus" so to speak.
Well invert that...how can the RCC or the SBC or the UMC or the whatever be the true faith if miracles happen outside of them?  That aside, all of creation is a miracle, in my opinion.  For the "extraordinary" miracles, I just assume that God does as He wills where He wills, because He's God.  :)
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2019, 09:24:13 PM »
As one who wishes to find the true faith and enter the true Church, the miracles outside of Orthodoxy give me pause before I make my decision to "Swim the Bosphorus" so to speak.
Well invert that...how can the RCC or the SBC or the UMC or the whatever be the true faith if miracles happen outside of them?  That aside, all of creation is a miracle, in my opinion.  For the "extraordinary" miracles, I just assume that God does as He wills where He wills, because He's God.  :)

Absolutely perfect response Ainnir.  :)

Offline Almost_Orthodox

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Re: Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2019, 12:46:55 PM »
Define "miracle".

Raising the dead, reading souls in Confession, healings, etc.

True miracles.....not the faux miracles of Pentecostal "healers" such as Benny Hinn and the like

Offline Almost_Orthodox

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Re: Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2019, 12:51:56 PM »
As one who wishes to find the true faith and enter the true Church, the miracles outside of Orthodoxy give me pause before I make my decision to "Swim the Bosphorus" so to speak.
Well invert that...how can the RCC or the SBC or the UMC or the whatever be the true faith if miracles happen outside of them?  That aside, all of creation is a miracle, in my opinion.  For the "extraordinary" miracles, I just assume that God does as He wills where He wills, because He's God.  :)

Absolutely perfect response Ainnir.  :)

Absolutely inadequate response. 

Look, I am told by certain Roman Catholics (and especially by their history) that unless I am in the "true Church" and doomed to eternal fire. And the RC don't have a lock on this either. I have seen Orthodox sites which state the same thing, except that it is Orthodoxy which you must belong to or you are in deep kimchee.

And the history of the Church also seems to bear this out.  If we read the writings of the Early Fathers, they are very condemnatory towards anyone who is outside the Church, and especially to heretics. There is a dreadful next life waiting for anyone who is outside the Church which Christ established in His Blood.

Maybe this will help you understand how I feel about all this:

https://http4281.wordpress.com/2018/11/03/somebodys-lying/

Offline Almost_Orthodox

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Re: Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2019, 12:53:58 PM »
As one who wishes to find the true faith and enter the true Church, the miracles outside of Orthodoxy give me pause before I make my decision to "Swim the Bosphorus" so to speak.
Well invert that...how can the RCC or the SBC or the UMC or the whatever be the true faith if miracles happen outside of them?  That aside, all of creation is a miracle, in my opinion.  For the "extraordinary" miracles, I just assume that God does as He wills where He wills, because He's God.  :)

Only two bodies have apostolic succession - Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy. All others are pretenders who broke away from the authority of the apostolic faith  So let's narrow this down please. My choice is between being "in communion" with Rome (which I find distasteful) and being Orthodox (which I know you would say I should be).

But the stories of the many saints in the Roman Church, their miracles, etc., gives me pause.

Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2019, 01:09:27 PM »
As one who wishes to find the true faith and enter the true Church, the miracles outside of Orthodoxy give me pause before I make my decision to "Swim the Bosphorus" so to speak.
Well invert that...how can the RCC or the SBC or the UMC or the whatever be the true faith if miracles happen outside of them?  That aside, all of creation is a miracle, in my opinion.  For the "extraordinary" miracles, I just assume that God does as He wills where He wills, because He's God.  :)

Absolutely perfect response Ainnir.  :)

Absolutely inadequate response. 

Look, I am told by certain Roman Catholics (and especially by their history) that unless I am in the "true Church" and doomed to eternal fire. And the RC don't have a lock on this either. I have seen Orthodox sites which state the same thing, except that it is Orthodoxy which you must belong to or you are in deep kimchee.

And the history of the Church also seems to bear this out.  If we read the writings of the Early Fathers, they are very condemnatory towards anyone who is outside the Church, and especially to heretics. There is a dreadful next life waiting for anyone who is outside the Church which Christ established in His Blood.

Maybe this will help you understand how I feel about all this:

https://http4281.wordpress.com/2018/11/03/somebodys-lying/

God is merciful to those who sincerely seek the truth.  He's not eagerly awaiting to damn people for mistaking which side is right or wrong on certain issues.  Mistakes in discernment aren't the same as willful, deliberate sins.

Become more active in prayer and spirituality than in reading debates.  Debates often go nowhere.  God won't abandon you, just keep seeking Him with sincerity of heart and humility and ask Him to reveal the truth to you.   
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 01:11:24 PM by PorphyriosK »

Offline Orthodox_Slav

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Re: Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2019, 02:10:44 PM »
With Catholics their "Miracles" such as Mary appearing to people and the such are the works of Demonic forces. Just my two cents 
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Bestowing life!- Paschal troparion

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2019, 03:02:39 PM »

First, be certain that what you are labeling a "miracle", is in fact a miracle... and is from God, and not the devil to deceive people.

Second, God makes the rain fall upon the saints and the sinners, and the sun to shine on both.

Three, don't question God.  Perhaps in allowing such miracles, he is slowly steering the individuals towards Orthodoxy.  MANY Orthodox were once atheists, who found the Roman Catholic Church... and with further study discovered the Orthodox Church and were illumined.

It is not for us to judge.  However, WE need to be careful about miracles.  We are told not to "buy in" to the miracle just because.  We are in fact told to doubt what we see as a miracle.  Doubt it again and again and again.

IF it is truly from GOD, He will continue pressing us and He will find a way to reach our understanding.

Don't let true miracles, fake miracles, rumors of miracles, lack of miracles... ever dissuade you from God's true and only Orthodox Church.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2019, 03:03:07 PM »


Would someone care to explain why God would do miracles in the name of Jesus Christ through heretical bodies?


Because not everything is related to Orthodox Christianity.

...oh... but, it is.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Almost_Orthodox

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Re: Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2019, 03:06:52 PM »
As one who wishes to find the true faith and enter the true Church, the miracles outside of Orthodoxy give me pause before I make my decision to "Swim the Bosphorus" so to speak.
Well invert that...how can the RCC or the SBC or the UMC or the whatever be the true faith if miracles happen outside of them?  That aside, all of creation is a miracle, in my opinion.  For the "extraordinary" miracles, I just assume that God does as He wills where He wills, because He's God.  :)

Absolutely perfect response Ainnir.  :)

Absolutely inadequate response. 

Look, I am told by certain Roman Catholics (and especially by their history) that unless I am in the "true Church" and doomed to eternal fire. And the RC don't have a lock on this either. I have seen Orthodox sites which state the same thing, except that it is Orthodoxy which you must belong to or you are in deep kimchee.

And the history of the Church also seems to bear this out.  If we read the writings of the Early Fathers, they are very condemnatory towards anyone who is outside the Church, and especially to heretics. There is a dreadful next life waiting for anyone who is outside the Church which Christ established in His Blood.

Maybe this will help you understand how I feel about all this:

https://http4281.wordpress.com/2018/11/03/somebodys-lying/

God is merciful to those who sincerely seek the truth.  He's not eagerly awaiting to damn people for mistaking which side is right or wrong on certain issues.  Mistakes in discernment aren't the same as willful, deliberate sins.

Become more active in prayer and spirituality than in reading debates.  Debates often go nowhere.  God won't abandon you, just keep seeking Him with sincerity of heart and humility and ask Him to reveal the truth to you.

That has been my continuing prayer. I guess I just need to trust and wait.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Miracles Outside of Orthodoxy
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2019, 05:34:17 PM »
As one who wishes to find the true faith and enter the true Church, the miracles outside of Orthodoxy give me pause before I make my decision to "Swim the Bosphorus" so to speak.
Well invert that...how can the RCC or the SBC or the UMC or the whatever be the true faith if miracles happen outside of them?  That aside, all of creation is a miracle, in my opinion.  For the "extraordinary" miracles, I just assume that God does as He wills where He wills, because He's God.  :)

Absolutely perfect response Ainnir.  :)

Absolutely inadequate response. 

Look, I am told by certain Roman Catholics (and especially by their history) that unless I am in the "true Church" and doomed to eternal fire. And the RC don't have a lock on this either. I have seen Orthodox sites which state the same thing, except that it is Orthodoxy which you must belong to or you are in deep kimchee.

And the history of the Church also seems to bear this out.  If we read the writings of the Early Fathers, they are very condemnatory towards anyone who is outside the Church, and especially to heretics. There is a dreadful next life waiting for anyone who is outside the Church which Christ established in His Blood.

Maybe this will help you understand how I feel about all this:

https://http4281.wordpress.com/2018/11/03/somebodys-lying/

God is merciful to those who sincerely seek the truth.  He's not eagerly awaiting to damn people for mistaking which side is right or wrong on certain issues.  Mistakes in discernment aren't the same as willful, deliberate sins.

Become more active in prayer and spirituality than in reading debates.  Debates often go nowhere.  God won't abandon you, just keep seeking Him with sincerity of heart and humility and ask Him to reveal the truth to you.
Thank you.  ^^ This is a more perfect one, I think.  :)
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.