Author Topic: "Jehovah"  (Read 1211 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,271
  • Faith: The Angelus
  • Jurisdiction: Whichever one you think is wrong
"Jehovah"
« on: May 15, 2019, 04:06:01 PM »
I am working on a labor of love project, a reader's edition of the Psalms that could ultimately be adaptable to a psalter format.

I started with a copy of the ASV and am slowly working my way through, updating the archaic pronouns and verb structures. When it is done I plan to publish it as an e-book and a print-on-demand mainly for myself, though I will make it available for anyone else who wants it.

Because of that, there's one lingering question I have — Jehovah. It's not a true name for God, but the ASV uses it extensively, constantly. Do you think I should leave it alone, or should I replace it with something else? I don't love the KJV's use of "the LORD", but I don't feel comfortable using the holy name, nevermind how unnatural that would make the rhythm of an otherwise lyrical rendering.

Any thoughts or suggestions?
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,459
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2019, 04:44:42 PM »
I would go with "the LORD," since that's what Jews and Christians have been doing, in the equivalents in various languages, for a long, long time and that's what any liturgical psalter would do. I guess you could use other names too- the Holy One, the Almighty, etc.

Why the ASV in particular (I'm not familiar with that version)?

I know the Jerusalem Bible translators made the decision to use "Yahweh" all the way through; the relevant Catholic authorities declared that a no-no for liturgical use, so the Jerusalem Bible has been repackaged as the CTS Bible with the Grail Psalms and the divine name replaced with "the LORD" everywhere else.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 04:48:48 PM by Iconodule »
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline WPM

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,184
  • Jurisdiction: Granbury to Abilene
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2019, 05:15:58 PM »
Yea, Jehovah is the infinite Spirit prayed to at the Western Wall in Israel.

Offline WPM

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,184
  • Jurisdiction: Granbury to Abilene
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2019, 05:40:50 PM »
I would go with "the LORD," since that's what Jews and Christians have been doing, in the equivalents in various languages, for a long, long time and that's what any liturgical psalter would do. I guess you could use other names too- the Holy One, the Almighty, etc.

Why the ASV in particular (I'm not familiar with that version)?

I know the Jerusalem Bible translators made the decision to use "Yahweh" all the way through; the relevant Catholic authorities declared that a no-no for liturgical use, so the Jerusalem Bible has been repackaged as the CTS Bible with the Grail Psalms and the divine name replaced with "the LORD" everywhere else.

So the Publishing of text ends up in multiple translations of Bibles? . . .

Offline WPM

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,184
  • Jurisdiction: Granbury to Abilene
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2019, 05:49:45 PM »
Any thoughts or suggestions?

Everybody makes their choices. (Otherwise don't know)

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 18,570
  • You're my guardian angel hiding in the woods
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2019, 11:01:50 PM »
I second what Iconodule wrote.

I could go for the Agabus Psalter.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Luke

  • Formerly Gamliel
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,626
  • Ευλογημένη Σαρακοστή
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2019, 11:05:15 PM »
Thirds on Iconodule.

Offline WPM

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,184
  • Jurisdiction: Granbury to Abilene
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2019, 11:10:19 PM »
What is there not to be understood? Or this some refusal or denial that someone understands or people simply ignore or refuse to acknowledge? . .

Offline Brilko

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 326
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: ?
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2019, 12:17:17 AM »
The thing that sometimes bugs me about using “LORD” is that it tends to disguise the fact that a particular name was being used. “LORD” isn’t a translation. The Bibliotheca reader’s bible updated the ASV into the American Literary Version. They use “YHWH”.

It seems odd that the tradition rose up that we can’t say or print the actual word that the LORD gave Moses and that was written in the ancient scripture.

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 18,570
  • You're my guardian angel hiding in the woods
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2019, 12:46:52 AM »
How do you pronounce "YHWH"?
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Global Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,986
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Patriarchate/POC
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2019, 05:19:07 AM »
Probably I'd leave it alone.
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

My Orthodox liturgical blog "For what eat, while you can fast" in Polish (videos featuring chants in different languages)

Offline RaphaCam

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,087
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2019, 07:16:12 AM »
You should as Iconodule stated. The Portuguese-language Jerusalem Bible also uses "Javé" frequently, but it has a disclaimer that it's just for the sake of dynamic equivalence (literal translation), so, when reading alound, people should disregard these instances and pronounce "o Senhor" ("the Lord") instead.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 07:17:11 AM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline RaphaCam

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,087
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2019, 07:18:15 AM »
The thing that sometimes bugs me about using “LORD” is that it tends to disguise the fact that a particular name was being used.
As it has been as far as we can attest. Even Orthodox Jews and Samaritans do it, but they say "the name" instead. I wonder if this influenced the doctrine of onomatodoxy anyhow.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 07:19:23 AM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 18,570
  • You're my guardian angel hiding in the woods
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2019, 08:29:30 AM »
The thing that sometimes bugs me about using “LORD” is that it tends to disguise the fact that a particular name was being used.
As it has been as far as we can attest. Even Orthodox Jews and Samaritans do it, but they say "the name" instead. I wonder if this influenced the doctrine of onomatodoxy anyhow.

E.g. "The name is king, He is robed in majesty" ?

That sounds weird.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline RaphaCam

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,087
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2019, 08:41:13 AM »
Yeah, exactly like that. I'm not sure how non-Orthodox Jews read liturgically, probably the same, but one way to spot an Orthodox Jew (even the non practicing ones, since nowadays being Orthodox and being religious do not conflate among Jews anymore) is that even in daily speech he'll rather say "the name", while the non-Orthodox say "our Lord".
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline sestir

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 181
    • Weihos Bokos
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: independent
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2019, 08:54:03 AM »
An ambitious alternative would be to study Origen's practices in the Enneapla (Hexapla+3 extra columns in the Psalms). He preserved YHWH in some places and replaced it with κυριος in other places.

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,459
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2019, 09:27:25 AM »
Yeah, exactly like that. I'm not sure how non-Orthodox Jews read liturgically, probably the same, but one way to spot an Orthodox Jew (even the non practicing ones, since nowadays being Orthodox and being religious do not conflate among Jews anymore) is that even in daily speech he'll rather say "the name", while the non-Orthodox say "our Lord".

Apparently this can extend even to other names of God. I heard an interview with a guy named Shalom and when he was in school, the rabbi refused to pronounce his name and just said, "Name of the Creator." Any assignments, quizzes, etc. with his name on them had to be stored in a special box to be burned later.
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,271
  • Faith: The Angelus
  • Jurisdiction: Whichever one you think is wrong
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2019, 09:38:03 AM »
An ambitious alternative would be to study Origen's practices in the Enneapla (Hexapla+3 extra columns in the Psalms). He preserved YHWH in some places and replaced it with κυριος in other places.
I will never be able to do half of what he got done.

On the other hand, he didn't have five children.

Why the ASV in particular (I'm not familiar with that version)?

I had a few considerations:

I wanted a translation that was in the public domain so that there would be no issues with printing.

I also wanted one that had been somewhat proven through use.

I chose the ASV because it is the intermediate step between the KJV (which is used liturgically in some corners) and the RSV (which is popularly read in many of the same corners). Though it is obviously dated now, it is an essentially modern translation, but it keeps many of the cadences that make reading the KJV aloud a pleasant experience.

So, for comparison's sake, here's a selection from Psalm 118 (119 in the ASV):

Quote
American Standard Version:

י Yodh.
Thy hands have made me and fashioned me:
Give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.
They that fear thee shall see me and be glad,
Because I have hoped in thy word.
I know, O Jehovah, that thy judgments are righteous,
And that in faithfulness thou hast afflicted me.
Let, I pray thee, thy lovingkindness be for my comfort,
According to thy word unto thy servant.
Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live;
For thy law is my delight.
Let the proud be put to shame;
for they have overthrown me wrongfully:
But I will meditate on thy precepts.
Let those that fear thee turn unto me;
[m]And they shall know thy testimonies.
Let my heart be perfect in thy statutes,
That I be not put to shame.

Agabus Standard Revision:

YODH
Your hands have made me and fashioned me:
Give me understanding, that I may learn your commandments.
They that fear you shall see me and be glad,
Because I have hoped in your word.
I know, O Jehovah, that your judgments are righteous,
And that in faithfulness you have afflicted me.
I pray that you let your lovingkindness be my comfort,
According to your word to your servant.
Let your tender mercies come to me, that I may live;
For your law is my delight.
Let the proud be put to shame;
For they have overthrown me wrongfully:
But I will meditate on your precepts.
Let those that fear you turn to me;
And they shall know your testimonies.
Let my heart be perfect in your statutes,
That I do not be put to shame.

As you can see, I am essentially trusting the translation, but working to edit into a format that avoids many (though not all) of the false archaisms we see. I started the project because I realized that I was just laundering the psalter readings into my own vernacular.

I am almost done with the first draft ("Jehovah" intact, standard Masoretic numbering), and when I finish I might share it here if anyone would like to help me with feedback.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 18,570
  • You're my guardian angel hiding in the woods
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2019, 09:45:34 AM »
Please share when draft is complete.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,459
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2019, 09:48:04 AM »
Just to nitpick- "that I be not put to shame" is the subjunctive mood which, while increasingly rare, is not quite archaic yet. "That I do not be put to shame" sounds weird to me.
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 18,570
  • You're my guardian angel hiding in the woods
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2019, 09:53:51 AM »
You should as Iconodule stated. The Portuguese-language Jerusalem Bible also uses "Javé" frequently, but it has a disclaimer that it's just for the sake of dynamic equivalence (literal translation), so, when reading alound, people should disregard these instances and pronounce "o Senhor" ("the Lord") instead.

I grew up using the Reina-Valera version (Spanish) and there was "Jehová" all over the place.  Being read aloud, it was never replaced with "el Señor".

Edit: it was the 1960 revision of Reina-Valera, specifically.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 10:00:01 AM by hecma925 »
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,271
  • Faith: The Angelus
  • Jurisdiction: Whichever one you think is wrong
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2019, 10:14:26 AM »
Just to nitpick- "that I be not put to shame" is the subjunctive mood which, while increasingly rare, is not quite archaic yet. "That I do not be put to shame" sounds weird to me.

Like I said, this is just the first draft. I pulled that selection at random, so at second read through I might still change some of those weird senses. For the most part, I believe I have already changed most of the subjunctives.

I am trying to do it in small bites so I don't miss so many of those, but you know how it goes. Though I'm not going to do traditional galleys, I plan to print it out and take a felt tip pen to the pages.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 10:14:37 AM by Agabus »
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,459
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2019, 10:32:29 AM »
Fair enough.

In any case, I assume everyone here is already familiar with this bit, but in case you're not, enjoy.
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline RaphaCam

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,087
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: "Jehovah"
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2019, 01:06:47 PM »
An ambitious alternative would be to study Origen's practices in the Enneapla (Hexapla+3 extra columns in the Psalms). He preserved YHWH in some places and replaced it with κυριος in other places.
I will never be able to do half of what he got done.

On the other hand, he didn't have five children.
He allegedly made it pretty sure that this wouldn't happen...
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth