Author Topic: Do any Orthodox pray some form of Rosary or have found it helpful spiritually?  (Read 2766 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,114
  • Faith: without works is dead.
  • Jurisdiction: DNA compatible with Alexander
Many Orthodox have a thing about not invoking the visual imagination in prayer, although Iconodule wrote an article on that subject, or was going to, debunking it.

Here: https://josephzheng.blogspot.com/2018/11/mental-imagery-and-orthodox-spirituality.html

Essentially the rosary is not directly comparable with imageless, hesychastic prayer; it has more in common with the hours, or canons and akathists. In fact it was advocated as a way to pray the liturgy of the hours for those without access to breviaries.

There are many instances in the Orthodox spiritual writings, including in the Philokalia, where Christians are exhorted to meditate on various topics- especially the life of Christ or the day of judgment. The rosary is essentially two practices- the recitation of the Hail Mary  and a meditation on key events in the life of Christ. Orthodox already do both of these, both in public services and individual devotions, so to declare the rosary a foreign practice is to ignore a lot of existing Orthodox practice. When some of the fathers talk about prayer needing to be imageless, they are using "prayer" in a very restricted sense, different from both liturgical prayers and the daily cycle of private prayers.

I don't see how one could pray the Akathist and avoid some kind of visualization. Much of the language relies on poetic imagery.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 722
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel, from the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?

The East has its own traditions.

Papist, it's good to see you back, but this argument is BS and I'm sick of seeing it.

I, of course, agree that forcing a certain prayer onto people, as if one prayer has magical properties that are so significant that they deserve utmost attention over another, is unadultered paganism that completely misses the point of what prayer is - a view where prayer is not communication with God, but rather mantras with magical properties.

On the other hand, to suggest that the "East" and the "West" are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other is garbage. Okay, we should strive for not Latinizing the East - does this mean that we have to remove the Book of Revelation from the Bible, remove Latin Saints from the East, remove Liturgies which have Western authors as their proclaimed source (the Presanctified Liturgy of Saint Gregory the Great), remove any and all icons which are Western in origin (Theotokos of the Passion), and remove all prayers which are Western in origin, etc.?

Okay, these are unfair broad strokes which assumes continuity between the Pre-schism West and the Post-schism West. How about we remove all post-schism Latinizations. Then we ought to remove different colored vestments for the Priest, something which clearly originated in the Roman Catholic Church, remove ornate vestments, we ought to remove all iconography which is clearly post-schism Western in origin, like the Theotokos Softener of Evil Hearts icon (https://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server3800/30c33/products/2881/images/2892/12G73__90029.1438801151.1280.1280.jpg?c=2), remove all forms of polyphonic chant, remove all forms of chant that have any semblance of influence from Gregorian Chant (Traditional Slavonic Chant), etc.

Well, maybe these are still unfair. We should treat the "East" as Eastern Orthodox and "West" as Roman Catholicism.

Well, okay, but as a Roman Catholic, how do you logically justify the existence of Eastern Rite Catholic Churches if the true, authentic, source of Eastern praxis and spirituality is a schismatic Church? Why should developments in the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches, like the Rosary, artwork, devotions, the Stations of the Cross, and Lace be seen as something evil, considering that the Eastern Rite Churches developed their own liturgical tradition with influence from the Latin West, in much the same way that the Eastern Orthodox Church has?

And let's assume that an authentic reunion between the West and the East (somehow) occurs - does this mean that the Eastern Rites have no point in existing anymore, does this mean that we should abolish the Eastern Rite Churches after this? And should ANY development or ANY Latinization which occurs from that point on, like it did with the Eastern Orthodox Church, be strictly forbidden?

And why should the Eastern Orthodox Church hold the monopoly on what Eastern praxis is? What about the Oriental Orthodox Church? Both Churches claim to hold the authentic liturgical Alexandrian, Antiochian, and Caucasian traditions, with clearly different liturgical interpretations (in the case of the Eastern Orthodox Church, extreme Byzantinizations of each culture that isn't Greek), so why should they get the say? There's notoriously some visible Byzantinzation in the Oriental Rites of the Catholic Church as well.

From the Coptic Catholic Church:





I think that mandatory changes towards uniformity which are forced upon people, when such changes aren't required (of course, Paganizations and heretical ideas can be interpolated in liturgies and need corrected) are, indeed, immoral - but I find the argument that the "East has its own traditions" and the "West has its own traditions" to be very stupid, especially in the context of the Rosary, where Saint Seraphim Sarov wore white in imitation of the Dominicans in Russia, and what he literally prayed himself.

http://hermitbrother.blogspot.com/2013/10/rule-of-mother-of-god-st-seraphim-of.html
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 08:50:59 PM by Eamonomae »
"Conservatives currently control every branch of the federal government, and yet they have never sounded so beleaguered in my lifetime. Elite cues still matter in American politics, and it is hard not to notice that the head of the Republican Party reacts like a toddler to any kind of setback. It seems hard not to conclude that conservative standard-bearers have become the real snowflakes in American politics." - Daniel W. Drezner

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,015
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
The problem is not the Rosary itself so much as what it ends up displacing.  We should be saying Matins or at least First/Third/Sixth Hour before Liturgy.  The Rosary displaced this in many of our parishes.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Diego

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,340
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,554
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.

And yet Luther was right where the apostles were wrong.
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 722
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.

Because Rome initially didn't accept Hebrews as canonical, whereas the East didn't initially accept Revelation as canonical.
"Conservatives currently control every branch of the federal government, and yet they have never sounded so beleaguered in my lifetime. Elite cues still matter in American politics, and it is hard not to notice that the head of the Republican Party reacts like a toddler to any kind of setback. It seems hard not to conclude that conservative standard-bearers have become the real snowflakes in American politics." - Daniel W. Drezner

Offline Diego

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,340
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.

And yet Luther was right where the apostles were wrong.
Which I never said. And you know that, but you would prefer to be obnoxious and pretend that you don't. As I have said before, you really are a bit puerile. I certainly wouldn't entrust anyone's soul to your care.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,554
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel, from the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?

The East has its own traditions.

Papist, it's good to see you back, but this argument is BS and I'm sick of seeing it.

I, of course, agree that forcing a certain prayer onto people, as if one prayer has magical properties that are so significant that they deserve utmost attention over another, is unadultered paganism that completely misses the point of what prayer is - a view where prayer is not communication with God, but rather mantras with magical properties.

On the other hand, to suggest that the "East" and the "West" are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other is garbage.

Papist (PhD) didn’t say anything so stupid.  I’m not sure why that was your takeaway, but I have my guesses.
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,554
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.

And yet Luther was right where the apostles were wrong.
Which I never said. And you know that, but you would prefer to be obnoxious and pretend that you don't. As I have said before, you really are a bit puerile. I certainly wouldn't entrust anyone's soul to your care.

You have said on the forum that Lutheranism is the form of Christianity that got Christianity right.  It’s not a huge leap to assume this means Luther understood Jesus better than Peter and Paul.
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

Offline Diego

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,340
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel, from the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?

The East has its own traditions.

Papist, it's good to see you back, but this argument is BS and I'm sick of seeing it.

I, of course, agree that forcing a certain prayer onto people, as if one prayer has magical properties that are so significant that they deserve utmost attention over another, is unadultered paganism that completely misses the point of what prayer is - a view where prayer is not communication with God, but rather mantras with magical properties.

On the other hand, to suggest that the "East" and the "West" are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other is garbage.

Papist (PhD) didn’t say anything so stupid.  I’m not sure why that was your takeaway, but I have my guesses.
I actually found EAMONOMAE'S comment to be interesting and informative.

Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.

And yet Luther was right where the apostles were wrong.
Which I never said. And you know that, but you would prefer to be obnoxious and pretend that you don't. As I have said before, you really are a bit puerile. I certainly wouldn't entrust anyone's soul to your care.

You have said on the forum that Lutheranism is the form of Christianity that got Christianity right.  It’s not a huge leap to assume this means Luther understood Jesus better than Peter and Paul.
Actually, no, that is NOT what I mean. And your deliberate attempt at misunderstanding me verges on the libelous. What I said is that Lutheranism is the Church that best understands the Scripture and the Fathers. THAT is what I said, and you know it. I have half a mind to inquire with my attorney whether it would be worth suing you for libel.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,554
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel, from the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?

The East has its own traditions.

Papist, it's good to see you back, but this argument is BS and I'm sick of seeing it.

I, of course, agree that forcing a certain prayer onto people, as if one prayer has magical properties that are so significant that they deserve utmost attention over another, is unadultered paganism that completely misses the point of what prayer is - a view where prayer is not communication with God, but rather mantras with magical properties.

On the other hand, to suggest that the "East" and the "West" are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other is garbage.

Papist (PhD) didn’t say anything so stupid.  I’m not sure why that was your takeaway, but I have my guesses.
I actually found EAMONOMAE'S comment to be interesting and informative.

Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.

And yet Luther was right where the apostles were wrong.
Which I never said. And you know that, but you would prefer to be obnoxious and pretend that you don't. As I have said before, you really are a bit puerile. I certainly wouldn't entrust anyone's soul to your care.

You have said on the forum that Lutheranism is the form of Christianity that got Christianity right.  It’s not a huge leap to assume this means Luther understood Jesus better than Peter and Paul.
Actually, no, that is NOT what I mean. And your deliberate attempt at misunderstanding me verges on the libelous. What I said is that Lutheranism is the Church that best understands the Scripture and the Fathers. THAT is what I said, and you know it. I have half a mind to inquire with my attorney whether it would be worth suing you for libel.

LOL, you sound familiar...
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

Offline Diego

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,340
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel, from the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?

The East has its own traditions.

Papist, it's good to see you back, but this argument is BS and I'm sick of seeing it.

I, of course, agree that forcing a certain prayer onto people, as if one prayer has magical properties that are so significant that they deserve utmost attention over another, is unadultered paganism that completely misses the point of what prayer is - a view where prayer is not communication with God, but rather mantras with magical properties.

On the other hand, to suggest that the "East" and the "West" are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other is garbage.

Papist (PhD) didn’t say anything so stupid.  I’m not sure why that was your takeaway, but I have my guesses.
I actually found EAMONOMAE'S comment to be interesting and informative.

Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.

And yet Luther was right where the apostles were wrong.
Which I never said. And you know that, but you would prefer to be obnoxious and pretend that you don't. As I have said before, you really are a bit puerile. I certainly wouldn't entrust anyone's soul to your care.

You have said on the forum that Lutheranism is the form of Christianity that got Christianity right.  It’s not a huge leap to assume this means Luther understood Jesus better than Peter and Paul.
Actually, no, that is NOT what I mean. And your deliberate attempt at misunderstanding me verges on the libelous. What I said is that Lutheranism is the Church that best understands the Scripture and the Fathers. THAT is what I said, and you know it. I have half a mind to inquire with my attorney whether it would be worth suing you for libel.

LOL, you sound familiar...
If I sound familiar, I suspect it is because others have also considered suing you for libel as well.

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 722
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel, from the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?

The East has its own traditions.

Papist, it's good to see you back, but this argument is BS and I'm sick of seeing it.

I, of course, agree that forcing a certain prayer onto people, as if one prayer has magical properties that are so significant that they deserve utmost attention over another, is unadultered paganism that completely misses the point of what prayer is - a view where prayer is not communication with God, but rather mantras with magical properties.

On the other hand, to suggest that the "East" and the "West" are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other is garbage.

Papist (PhD) didn’t say anything so stupid.  I’m not sure why that was your takeaway, but I have my guesses.

I hope, then, he crushes my argument like a twig.
"Conservatives currently control every branch of the federal government, and yet they have never sounded so beleaguered in my lifetime. Elite cues still matter in American politics, and it is hard not to notice that the head of the Republican Party reacts like a toddler to any kind of setback. It seems hard not to conclude that conservative standard-bearers have become the real snowflakes in American politics." - Daniel W. Drezner

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,554
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel, from the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?

The East has its own traditions.

Papist, it's good to see you back, but this argument is BS and I'm sick of seeing it.

I, of course, agree that forcing a certain prayer onto people, as if one prayer has magical properties that are so significant that they deserve utmost attention over another, is unadultered paganism that completely misses the point of what prayer is - a view where prayer is not communication with God, but rather mantras with magical properties.

On the other hand, to suggest that the "East" and the "West" are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other is garbage.

Papist (PhD) didn’t say anything so stupid.  I’m not sure why that was your takeaway, but I have my guesses.
I actually found EAMONOMAE'S comment to be interesting and informative.

Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.

And yet Luther was right where the apostles were wrong.
Which I never said. And you know that, but you would prefer to be obnoxious and pretend that you don't. As I have said before, you really are a bit puerile. I certainly wouldn't entrust anyone's soul to your care.

You have said on the forum that Lutheranism is the form of Christianity that got Christianity right.  It’s not a huge leap to assume this means Luther understood Jesus better than Peter and Paul.
Actually, no, that is NOT what I mean. And your deliberate attempt at misunderstanding me verges on the libelous. What I said is that Lutheranism is the Church that best understands the Scripture and the Fathers. THAT is what I said, and you know it. I have half a mind to inquire with my attorney whether it would be worth suing you for libel.

LOL, you sound familiar...
If I sound familiar, I suspect it is because others have also considered suing you for libel as well.

Yeah, and theirs was as stupid a reason as yours.
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,554
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel, from the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?

The East has its own traditions.

Papist, it's good to see you back, but this argument is BS and I'm sick of seeing it.

I, of course, agree that forcing a certain prayer onto people, as if one prayer has magical properties that are so significant that they deserve utmost attention over another, is unadultered paganism that completely misses the point of what prayer is - a view where prayer is not communication with God, but rather mantras with magical properties.

On the other hand, to suggest that the "East" and the "West" are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other is garbage.

Papist (PhD) didn’t say anything so stupid.  I’m not sure why that was your takeaway, but I have my guesses.

I hope, then, he crushes my argument like a twig.

Most twigs aren’t worth breaking.
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

Offline Diego

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,340
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel, from the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?

The East has its own traditions.

Papist, it's good to see you back, but this argument is BS and I'm sick of seeing it.

I, of course, agree that forcing a certain prayer onto people, as if one prayer has magical properties that are so significant that they deserve utmost attention over another, is unadultered paganism that completely misses the point of what prayer is - a view where prayer is not communication with God, but rather mantras with magical properties.

On the other hand, to suggest that the "East" and the "West" are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other is garbage.

Papist (PhD) didn’t say anything so stupid.  I’m not sure why that was your takeaway, but I have my guesses.
I actually found EAMONOMAE'S comment to be interesting and informative.

Why would anyone consider removing Revelation from the Bible? Although it, like James and Hebrews (and I think one or two other books) were added after a bit of debate, once they WERE added, they were accepted without question until Luther brought up the issue in the 1500s, and fortunately, he was ignored even by other Lutherans.

And yet Luther was right where the apostles were wrong.
Which I never said. And you know that, but you would prefer to be obnoxious and pretend that you don't. As I have said before, you really are a bit puerile. I certainly wouldn't entrust anyone's soul to your care.

You have said on the forum that Lutheranism is the form of Christianity that got Christianity right.  It’s not a huge leap to assume this means Luther understood Jesus better than Peter and Paul.
Actually, no, that is NOT what I mean. And your deliberate attempt at misunderstanding me verges on the libelous. What I said is that Lutheranism is the Church that best understands the Scripture and the Fathers. THAT is what I said, and you know it. I have half a mind to inquire with my attorney whether it would be worth suing you for libel.

LOL, you sound familiar...
If I sound familiar, I suspect it is because others have also considered suing you for libel as well.

Yeah, and theirs was as stupid a reason as yours.
Well, objectively, you HAVE committed libel. It is not considered stupid to think about suing someone for libel when they have committed the offense. If you weren't such a waste of the air you breathe, I would actively take you to court. But you are not worth it. I have far better things to do with my time.

Offline Brilko

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 262
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: ?
An old nugget dredged from the trivia box. I listened to a lecture by Dr. James Voelz, from Concordia, mentioning a Lutheran pastor who did not accept Revelation as scripture. As I recall, Dr. Voelz said the LCMS didn’t require pastors to accept any particular books as being part of the canon.

Offline Diego

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,340
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
An old nugget dredged from the trivia box. I listened to a lecture by Dr. James Voelz, from Concordia, mentioning a Lutheran pastor who did not accept Revelation as scripture. As I recall, Dr. Voelz said the LCMS didn’t require pastors to accept any particular books as being part of the canon.
That is incorrect as far as I know. The LCMS requires its Pastors, and its members, to accept 66 books of the Scripture as valid. I would recommend visiting lcms.org for information on that. My Pastor certainly expected me to accept the entire 66 book canon when I was confirmed. He led me to believe the Church required it as well. And Luther's Catechisms assume an acceptance of the entire text.

Dr. AL Barry, President of LCMS, wrote a series of brief documents on what the Church believes. One of these was on the Bible, in which the Bible was defined as having 66 books. These documents can be downloaded from lcms.org
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 02:44:53 AM by Diego »

Offline Diego

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,340
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
It should also be noted that all Pastors are expected upon ordination to accept the Book of Concord as a Faithful explanation of Scripture, and the Confession of the Church. The Book of Concord itself was composed in 1580, when the Three Solae, one of which is Scripture only, were included. By the time the Book of Concord was composed, Lutherans were on record as accepting 66 books in the canon, one of them being Revelation.

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 722
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
Some Orthodox Christians have said they pray the Rosary, sometimes with slightly different words than Latin Catholics are accustomed to praying it, and have found it helpful in their spiritual life. Have any Orthodox here prayed the Rosary and believe you've experienced some graces, blessings, spiritual growth etc thanks to it?

The Chief Prayer of the Rosary, of course, is the Hail Mary or the Angelic Salutation, by which the world was renewed and the way for the Incarnation of the Son of God was prepared. The main portion of the Hail Mary is of course taken directly from the Gospel, from the words of St. Gabriel and of St. Elizabeth, when St. John the Baptist was sanctified, as St. Luke relates in the first chapter. The second part was added by the Church and constantly affirms and re-affirms a sacred dogma defined at the Council of Ephesus, and accepted by all of us; namely, that Mary is Holy Mother of God. The Holy Theotokos, as She is called in the Greek tongue and the Byzantine Church.

We also testify daily the Power of Her Prayer with God, seeing as that She is by far greater than all the Saints, and recommend us and the whole Church to the most efficaciously powerful intercession of the holy Mother of God. Especially, we recommend the hour of our death to Her Powerful and Prayerful Protection.

The Glory be, is the Church's constant hymn of Praise and a most simple and beatiful prayer of glorification to the Most Holy Trinity

The Lord's Prayer, as we know, is taught by the Lord Himself, and is the best of prayers. Thus, the whole Rosary is a School of Prayer. That is, an aid for all those who would like to pray, that they may learn how to; for those proficient in prayer, that they may advance more in sanctity through it; and for those who aim at perfection, that they may most happily attain to it, according to what Catholic Tradition relates were some of the promises of Mother of God for it, "It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means! ... Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they ... shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven", as also Christian experience has constantly verified in subsequent centuries. Your thoughts on the Rosary, dear friends?

The East has its own traditions.

Papist, it's good to see you back, but this argument is BS and I'm sick of seeing it.

I, of course, agree that forcing a certain prayer onto people, as if one prayer has magical properties that are so significant that they deserve utmost attention over another, is unadultered paganism that completely misses the point of what prayer is - a view where prayer is not communication with God, but rather mantras with magical properties.

On the other hand, to suggest that the "East" and the "West" are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other is garbage.

Papist (PhD) didn’t say anything so stupid.  I’m not sure why that was your takeaway, but I have my guesses.

I hope, then, he crushes my argument like a twig.

Most twigs aren’t worth breaking.

Well, as someone who is open to different opinions, it might be worth breaking, lest I hold onto my beliefs as a definitive way of viewing rites and liturgy.
"Conservatives currently control every branch of the federal government, and yet they have never sounded so beleaguered in my lifetime. Elite cues still matter in American politics, and it is hard not to notice that the head of the Republican Party reacts like a toddler to any kind of setback. It seems hard not to conclude that conservative standard-bearers have become the real snowflakes in American politics." - Daniel W. Drezner

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,288
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Papist never said or even came close to suggesting that "the East and the West are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other." So I'm not sure why you would demand that he come to the defense of an assertion that he didn't make.
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline Ainnir

  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,506
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
And regardless, it's not other people's responsibility to change our minds.  That belongs to us.  Other people can simply provide information, support, feedback, etc.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,920
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
I think you are all missing the point.

Is there anything inherently bad about the Rosary prayers?   Do they teach a heresy?  No.

However, just as the Canons once prohibited utilizing Jewish physicians.... not because we feared, hated, or mistrusted Jews.... but, out of the possibility that the patient might in fact dilute their own faith by "mixing" with others...

This same premise holds true here.

Why are you praying the Rosary, when the Jesus Prayer should suffice?

What is it that you find so alluring and so satisfying in the Rosary?

You won't go to Hell for praying it, but, why are you?  Why are you utilizing something from a different Faith in leue of something from your own?

The danger lies in the fact that in accepting another Faith's prayer standard, you are one step closer to accepting her theology....

...and in the same vein... you are validating the other Faith in place of your own.  "See, even the Orthodox cannot find solace in their own prayers, and come to us..."

Do you see?

That is the problem with praying the Rosary.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Diego

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,340
  • Faith: Lutheran LCMS
  • Jurisdiction: Iowa District West
Praying the Rosary
« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2019, 12:52:50 PM »
For some reason, when I clicked on "reply", it started a new subject. I think praying the Rosary, if properly done w/ Orthodox prayers added, or in my case, w/ elements deleted, I think the prayers can appropiately be made a part of one's own tradition.

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,288
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
I think you are all missing the point.

Is there anything inherently bad about the Rosary prayers?   Do they teach a heresy?  No.

However, just as the Canons once prohibited utilizing Jewish physicians.... not because we feared, hated, or mistrusted Jews.... but, out of the possibility that the patient might in fact dilute their own faith by "mixing" with others...

This same premise holds true here.

Why are you praying the Rosary, when the Jesus Prayer should suffice?

The rosary is not an equivalent of the Jesus prayer. They are not interchangeable practices. You might as well ask, "Why pray morning and evening prayers, or why go to vespers and matins, when the Jesus prayer would suffice?" There are many other practices in the Orthodox spiritual repertoire apart from the Jesus prayer. Who are you to stand in judgment of Sts Mark the Wrestler, Nicholas Cabasilas, and many others who advised that Christians should meditate on the life and death of Christ?

Are you so unfamiliar with the work of the Kyiv Academy? Perhaps you share the opinion of Fr Georges Florovsky that the Ukrainian contribution to Orthodox theology was almost uniformly inauthentic and distorted? I find his judgment quite unfair. Do you condemn Sts Dmitri of Rostov or Peter Mohyla, who, like many saints from Ukraine, found the rosary and other Western Christian practices edifying and helpful?

Quote
What is it that you find so alluring and so satisfying in the Rosary?

You won't go to Hell for praying it, but, why are you?  Why are you utilizing something from a different Faith in leue of something from your own?

Since the rosary has been in practice by Orthodox Christians for centuries, and is full of Orthodox content, it's ridiculous to say it's "from a different faith." I don't practice the rosary myself, but I find your attempt to police those who do contradictory to your claim that...

 
I'm not stopping anyone...
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,920
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.

Policing?  I am not going to knock on people's doors and take away their rosaries.  We have "free" will.  People can choose to pray how, when and to whom they wish.

However, as an Orthodox Christian, I prefer to use the tools in the Orthodox toolbox.





Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 722
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
Papist never said or even came close to suggesting that "the East and the West are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other." So I'm not sure why you would demand that he come to the defense of an assertion that he didn't make.

Isn't that implicit in the response of "The East has its own traditions;" By asserting that the East has its own traditions that should be separate from the West, that implies that the West should not impact the East, which can be interpreted in a multiple number of ways, which all are problematic as I've pointed out, given the fact that there was never a point in history where the East didn't impact the West, and the West didn't impact the East?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 01:27:08 PM by Eamonomae »
"Conservatives currently control every branch of the federal government, and yet they have never sounded so beleaguered in my lifetime. Elite cues still matter in American politics, and it is hard not to notice that the head of the Republican Party reacts like a toddler to any kind of setback. It seems hard not to conclude that conservative standard-bearers have become the real snowflakes in American politics." - Daniel W. Drezner

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,288
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown

Policing?  I am not going to knock on people's doors and take away their rosaries.  We have "free" will.  People can choose to pray how, when and to whom they wish.

However, as an Orthodox Christian, I prefer to use the tools in the Orthodox toolbox.

Perhaps familiarizing yourself with the contents of said toolbox is in order, before lecturing others about what's in it.
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,288
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Papist never said or even came close to suggesting that "the East and the West are two ontological entities that have no relation nor impact on each other." So I'm not sure why you would demand that he come to the defense of an assertion that he didn't make.

Isn't that implicit in the response of "The East has its own traditions;" By asserting that the East has its own traditions that should be separate from the West, ...

There you go again...
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 722
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
I think you are all missing the point.

Is there anything inherently bad about the Rosary prayers?   Do they teach a heresy?  No.

However, just as the Canons once prohibited utilizing Jewish physicians.... not because we feared, hated, or mistrusted Jews.... but, out of the possibility that the patient might in fact dilute their own faith by "mixing" with others...

This same premise holds true here.

Why are you praying the Rosary, when the Jesus Prayer should suffice?

The rosary is not an equivalent of the Jesus prayer. They are not interchangeable practices. You might as well ask, "Why pray morning and evening prayers, or why go to vespers and matins, when the Jesus prayer would suffice?" There are many other practices in the Orthodox spiritual repertoire apart from the Jesus prayer. Who are you to stand in judgment of Sts Mark the Wrestler, Nicholas Cabasilas, and many others who advised that Christians should meditate on the life and death of Christ?

Are you so unfamiliar with the work of the Kyiv Academy? Perhaps you share the opinion of Fr Georges Florovsky that the Ukrainian contribution to Orthodox theology was almost uniformly inauthentic and distorted? I find his judgment quite unfair. Do you condemn Sts Dmitri of Rostov or Peter Mohyla, who, like many saints from Ukraine, found the rosary and other Western Christian practices edifying and helpful?

Quote
What is it that you find so alluring and so satisfying in the Rosary?

You won't go to Hell for praying it, but, why are you?  Why are you utilizing something from a different Faith in leue of something from your own?

Since the rosary has been in practice by Orthodox Christians for centuries, and is full of Orthodox content, it's ridiculous to say it's "from a different faith." I don't practice the rosary myself, but I find your attempt to police those who do contradictory to your claim that...

 
I'm not stopping anyone...

Well, it also depends how you interpret the Rosary - to what extent does "meditation" equal "imagining you are there", to how you interpret the results of the Rosary - the do X receive Y mentality of Roman Catholic spirituality, which applies in some instances to the Rosary (https://www.theholyrosary.org/rosarybenefits), whether or not you use the controversial Filioque Nicene Creed.

Not using the Filioque Nicene Creed (for the purposes of not accidentally speaking heresy for those who find the Filioque controversy confusing or those who are uncertain about it), the words of the Rosary themselves are Orthodox. Asking the Virgin Mary to pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, is definitely not heterodox.

But you know what else I consider Orthodox in it's prayer? The Divine Mercy devotion. However, the way some Catholics interpret such a prayer, as self-evident from the superstitious people that "theistgal" has had to deal with, is clearly not Orthodox. Expecting to pray the Divine Mercy devotion in the hopes that you will receive a "get-out-of-jail-free" card from both Purgatory, Hell, and your own sins, just from the words you say, as if the prayers are more powerful than the Eucharist, more powerful than Baptism, more powerful than Unction, more powerful than Chrismation, more powerful than Confession, is nothing short of diabolical in my opinion.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 01:38:22 PM by Eamonomae »
"Conservatives currently control every branch of the federal government, and yet they have never sounded so beleaguered in my lifetime. Elite cues still matter in American politics, and it is hard not to notice that the head of the Republican Party reacts like a toddler to any kind of setback. It seems hard not to conclude that conservative standard-bearers have become the real snowflakes in American politics." - Daniel W. Drezner

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 722
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
Quote
Isn't that implicit in the response of "The East has its own traditions;" By asserting that the East has its own traditions that should be separate from the West, that implies that the West should not impact the East, which can be interpreted in a multiple number of ways, which all are problematic as I've pointed out, given the fact that there was never a point in history where the East didn't impact the West, and the West didn't impact the East?

There, my argument still stands.
"Conservatives currently control every branch of the federal government, and yet they have never sounded so beleaguered in my lifetime. Elite cues still matter in American politics, and it is hard not to notice that the head of the Republican Party reacts like a toddler to any kind of setback. It seems hard not to conclude that conservative standard-bearers have become the real snowflakes in American politics." - Daniel W. Drezner

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,920
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.

Policing?  I am not going to knock on people's doors and take away their rosaries.  We have "free" will.  People can choose to pray how, when and to whom they wish.

However, as an Orthodox Christian, I prefer to use the tools in the Orthodox toolbox.

Perhaps familiarizing yourself with the contents of said toolbox is in order, before lecturing others about what's in it.

I just checked again.  Riffled through the whole thing.  Didn't find a rosary.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 722
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
Also, I should clarify - most of the Chaplet of Divine Mercy is Orthodox, I forgot about the "Eternal Father" prayer, which isn't, as is the "Gushing Blood" prayer, which isn't. I forgot about these prayers.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 02:10:46 PM by Eamonomae »
"Conservatives currently control every branch of the federal government, and yet they have never sounded so beleaguered in my lifetime. Elite cues still matter in American politics, and it is hard not to notice that the head of the Republican Party reacts like a toddler to any kind of setback. It seems hard not to conclude that conservative standard-bearers have become the real snowflakes in American politics." - Daniel W. Drezner

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,288
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Well, it also depends how you interpret the Rosary - to what extent does "meditation" equal "imagining you are there"

This happens all the time in the Byzantine hymnography, e.g.

"Come, O faithful! Let us go to see where Christ is born. We shall follow the wise men, kings from the East, and be led by the guiding star to the place where angels sing unceasing praise..."

"Let us purify our senses and we shall see Christ shining in the unapproachable light of His resurrection. We shall clearly hear Him say: Rejoice, as we sing the song of victory."

"Come, let us go to the mountain of the Lord, to the habitation of our God, and let us gaze upon the glory of His Transfiguration.."
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 722
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
Well, it also depends how you interpret the Rosary - to what extent does "meditation" equal "imagining you are there"

This happens all the time in the Byzantine hymnography, e.g.

"Come, O faithful! Let us go to see where Christ is born. We shall follow the wise men, kings from the East, and be led by the guiding star to the place where angels sing unceasing praise..."

"Let us purify our senses and we shall see Christ shining in the unapproachable light of His resurrection. We shall clearly hear Him say: Rejoice, as we sing the song of victory."

"Come, let us go to the mountain of the Lord, to the habitation of our God, and let us gaze upon the glory of His Transfiguration.."

Cool. For me personally though, since I've began praying more seriously, I never try to explicitly recreate anything outside the texts I read, and very rarely use my imagination. But that's me.
"Conservatives currently control every branch of the federal government, and yet they have never sounded so beleaguered in my lifetime. Elite cues still matter in American politics, and it is hard not to notice that the head of the Republican Party reacts like a toddler to any kind of setback. It seems hard not to conclude that conservative standard-bearers have become the real snowflakes in American politics." - Daniel W. Drezner

Offline Ainnir

  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,506
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Well, objectively, you HAVE committed libel. It is not considered stupid to think about suing someone for libel when they have committed the offense. If you weren't such a waste of the air you breathe, I would actively take you to court. But you are not worth it. I have far better things to do with my time.
Diego, for harassment, for threatening legal action, for an ad hom attack, I am giving you a 60% warning--20% for each offense.  May it be a time to seriously reflect on why you're even a member here.
If you wish to appeal, you may PM Dominika, global moderator.  Thanks.  --Ainnir

« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 10:24:59 PM by Ainnir »
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

Offline isxodnik

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 364
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
"Let us purify our senses..."
Pay attention.
Оскверняются путие eго на всяко время, отъемлются судьбы Твоя от лица eго, всеми враги своими обладает. (Psalm 9:26)

Offline WPM

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,318
  • Faith: Conservative Branch
  • Jurisdiction: United States
I like Jesus Prayer and Knotted rope.
~ How to receive instructions in Torah and Rabbinic Law and learn Hebrew or Yiddish. ~

Offline Xavier

  • Slave of Love consecrated to the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, May Full Re-Union come!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: The Pope - but my heart is for Re-Union!
I like this excerpt from that link shared by Eamon. It presents clear evidence even historically that some form of the Rosary is part of universal Tradition and was prayed and recommended to all Christians by Orthodox St. Seraphim of Sarov, and miracles followed the Rule's observance: "Rule of the Mother of God - St. Seraphim of Sarov

St Seraphim of Sarov
Eastern Practitioner of the 'Rule of the Theotokos'
the Eastern Rosary

The evidence for the first two revelations of the Rosary (fourth century and then the eighth century) derive from an Eastern Orthodox priest Father Zosima who is the spiritual son of the great Saint Seraphim of Sarov who said:

…I forgot to give you a piece of advice vital for salvation. Say the O Hail, Mother of God and Virgin one hundred and fifty times, and this prayer will lead you on the way to salvation. This rule was given by the Mother of God herself in about the eighth century, and at one time all Christians fulfilled it.

We Orthodox have forgotten about it, and Saint Seraphim has reminded me of this Rule. In my hands I have a hand-written book from the cell of Saint Seraphim, containing a description of the many miracles which took place through praying to the Mother of God and especially through saying one hundred and fifty times the O Hail, Mother of God and Virgin.

If, being unaccustomed to it, it is difficult to master one hundred and fifty repetitions daily, say it fifty times at first. After every ten repetitions say the "Our Father" once and "Open unto us the doors of thy loving kindness."* Whomever he spoke to about this miracle-working Rule remained grateful to him." From: http://hermitbrother.blogspot.com/2013/10/rule-of-mother-of-god-st-seraphim-of.html?m=1
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 04:01:43 AM by Xavier »
"My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with your most precious Blood and your sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the intention of your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Together with my life, I place at your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the sufferings of my entire life for the adoration ... https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

Offline Xavier

  • Slave of Love consecrated to the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, May Full Re-Union come!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: The Pope - but my heart is for Re-Union!
I believe St. Seraphim also spoke of 15 events from the life of the Lord and the Theotokos to prayerfully consider while praying or singing, as per the earlier link. Some are slightly different, but many others are the same, including Annunciation, Birth of Christ, Presentation, Descent of the Holy Spirit, the Mother of God being Crowned by the Holy Trinity in Heaven etc..

Many Orthodox have a thing about not invoking the visual imagination in prayer, although Iconodule wrote an article on that subject, or was going to, debunking it.

Here: https://josephzheng.blogspot.com/2018/11/mental-imagery-and-orthodox-spirituality.html

Nice article, Joseph, thanks. I think wonderful Orthodox prayers like "Lord Jesus Christ, have Mercy on me, a sinner", and, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" can easily be incorporated by a Catholic, east or west, into his or her own spiritual life. I try to pray the former before Holy Communion.

I agree with the idea that the Rosary is similar to the Liturgy of the Hours. Some Saints compare the 150 Psalms to the 150 Hail Mary's of the Rosary by calling the latter as Mary's Psalter. Surely we would receive great graces if we were able to prayerfully read all 150 Psalms. St. Montfort says praying 15 decades of the Rosary every day would be even more meritorious than doing that, especially for the common faithful. The chanting of the Rosary as being somewhat similar to the way the Divine Office is chanted in monasteries.

I agree with the authorities you cited about meditation in prayer. I think it is important to avoid distraction in prayer, but distraction is something else. Those who disagree, I would ask, why did God have to come down from Heaven if it is somehow wrong to meditate on the mysteries of His Life on Earth? And His Mother's life, leading to the glorification of God and His Mother in Heaven? For us, almost every Catholic Saint says reading and meditation on the Life and especially Passion of the Lord is among the spiritual exercises most profitable for our souls. We tend to become like what we love to meditate on, say the Saints, and thus we should meditate on the Lord's Life and Passion above all, otherwise we will find it harder imho to be conformed to the image and likeness of Christ and Him Crucified, which we must do to attain theosis. Icons exist for a similar reason. Is it wrong even to meditate on an icon of the Cross while praying?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 04:35:35 AM by Xavier »
"My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with your most precious Blood and your sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the intention of your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Together with my life, I place at your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the sufferings of my entire life for the adoration ... https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

Offline WPM

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,318
  • Faith: Conservative Branch
  • Jurisdiction: United States
I believe you can pray however you want . . . There is no right wrong prayer . . . Just the tradition of the Rosary has a better guidelines.
~ How to receive instructions in Torah and Rabbinic Law and learn Hebrew or Yiddish. ~

Offline isxodnik

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 364
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
To ascribe to St. Seraphim the Catholic practice, it is necessary to have no fear of God at all.
Оскверняются путие eго на всяко время, отъемлются судьбы Твоя от лица eго, всеми враги своими обладает. (Psalm 9:26)

Offline jah777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,143
St. Seraphim did not teach a version of the Rosary but according to the link below, Bishop Seraphim Zvezdinsk may have.  If Bp Seraphim did, this never became an established, accepted, or well regarded practice in Orthodoxy.  If we want to enter the Kingdom and attain to that which the Orthodox saints attained, we should follow Orthodox practices and methods which they utilized and not borrow questionable practices from other religions.  Aside from this anecdote regarding Bp Seraphim, I have heard no Orthodox saint ever suggest that the Rosary is a good practice that should be utilized by those desiring salvation.

http://fatherdavidbirdosb.blogspot.com/2010/10/irenikon-rosary-of-st-seraphim-of-sarov.html

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,288
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
St Dmitri of Rostov practiced and commended it. Of course the immediate retort is, "Yeah, but he was steeped in Latin learning and culture." Which is true. And yet he is still an important Orthodox saint.
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline WPM

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,318
  • Faith: Conservative Branch
  • Jurisdiction: United States
Inquiring about Eastern Orthodoxy 101


[You need this introduction to a Bishop or Monk]
~ How to receive instructions in Torah and Rabbinic Law and learn Hebrew or Yiddish. ~