Author Topic: allowed, not allowed - used to be catholic questions  (Read 731 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Zephyr7

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
  • Faith: Orthodox
allowed, not allowed - used to be catholic questions
« on: May 07, 2019, 04:42:29 AM »
Can you help me with the following :)

- is it allowed for an Orthodox person to pray a catholic rosary ("Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.") - of course with an exception of the Symbol of Faith (I believe in God...)

- what should an Orthodox do in the presence of Papal blessing (e.g. you're in a room with your family and on TV Pope Francis is giving his blessing "In the name of Father...". And every catholic in the room make a sign of the cross. Can an Orthodox also make a sign of the cross and receive the blessing? Or is it a sin?)

- is it a sin for an Orthodox to go with his or her family to attend traditional blessing of food on catholic Great Saturday? If a catholic priest blesses the basket - can the Orthodox person cross themselves or is it a sin? :P

- How about catholic saints - there are people like Maximilian Kolbe (who volunteered to die instead of father of a family). What he did makes him unquestionably one of the most heroic and worthy saint (no matter the faith) - but from the Orthodox point of view, catholics are schismatics and die in heresy.

On the other hand, Archimandrit Zinon made a couple of icons depicting catholic saints... What should be an Orthodox position on the subject of catholic saints?

Thanks :)





« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 04:43:08 AM by Zephyr7 »

Online isxodnik

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 568
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: allowed, not allowed - used to be catholic questions
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2019, 05:27:43 AM »
It would be good to address such questions to his, local, priest. But if it's difficult, :

One should pray with Orthodox prayers. The distortion of doctrine inevitably affects the Liturgy and asceticism.

(Blessing on TV? Funny) by Accepting the Pope's blessing, you acknowledge his spiritual authority. For the Orthodox this is unacceptable. Of course, need to keep the love of others.

The other day the Pope comes to Bulgaria, if I am not mistaken. And he addressed a request for joint actions to the Bulgarian Orthodox Church. The Church authorities reluctantly agreed to some meetings, but: no joint services, prayers, or even just vestments in liturgical clothes. Even refused to provide an Orthodox deacon as a translator. Think about it.

The saints, glorified before the schism, are venerated without problems. On-good, on this place it would be necessary to stop. But recently there was an alarming situation when the Orthodox saints included people who lived before the division, but glorified by the Catholic Church after the schism. Many do not agree.

Can't be a Saint regardless of faith. The Holy man is the dwelling place of the Holy spirit, and He is only in the Church of Christ.
"А чего мне бояться? Не в лесу живём, и не в Америке"

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Global Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,921
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Patriarchate/POC
Re: allowed, not allowed - used to be catholic questions
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2019, 01:25:38 PM »
- is it allowed for an Orthodox person to pray a catholic rosary ("Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.") - of course with an exception of the Symbol of Faith (I believe in God...)
Rosary is an Orthodox prayer, there are a few threads about this on the forum, e.g this one: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,73996.0.html

- what should an Orthodox do in the presence of Papal blessing (e.g. you're in a room with your family and on TV Pope Francis is giving his blessing "In the name of Father...". And every catholic in the room make a sign of the cross. Can an Orthodox also make a sign of the cross and receive the blessing? Or is it a sin?)
You can ignore or cross yourself as anyway we cross ourselves a lot of times.

- is it a sin for an Orthodox to go with his or her family to attend traditional blessing of food on catholic Great Saturday? If a catholic priest blesses the basket - can the Orthodox person cross themselves or is it a sin? :P
My father is Orthodox and we go with my mother on Catholic Great Saturday for the blesisng of basket. And she goes with us on Orthodox Great Saturday to do the same. If it's on the same day, we go to both churches.

- How about catholic saints - there are people like Maximilian Kolbe (who volunteered to die instead of father of a family). What he did makes him unquestionably one of the most heroic and worthy saint (no matter the faith) - but from the Orthodox point of view, catholics are schismatics and die in heresy.
It's difficult issue and I'd rather focus on relations with Orthodox saints, also the pre-schism ones.
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

My Orthodox liturgical blog "For what eat, while you can fast" in Polish (videos featuring chants in different languages)

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,264
  • Faith: The Angelus
  • Jurisdiction: Whichever one you think is wrong
Re: allowed, not allowed - used to be catholic questions
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2019, 02:07:03 PM »
- is it allowed for an Orthodox person to pray a catholic rosary ("Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.") - of course with an exception of the Symbol of Faith (I believe in God...)

It is prayed just like that, including with the Apostles' Creed, in our Western Rite churches. 

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Online Sethrak

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,147
  • Faith: Armenian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Etchmiadzin, Armenia
Re: allowed, not allowed - used to be catholic questions
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2019, 12:03:43 AM »
I think yes ~ there is nothing wrong with the Rosary ~ Orthodox have the same high regard for the Mother of God ~ some might be hard nosed about it ~ but, yes ```
Իմաստութիւն Հոր Յիսուս՝ տո՝ւր մեզ իաստուփին՝ զբարիս խորհել եւ խոսել եւ գործել առաջի Քո յամենայն ժամ : եւ ի չար խորհրդոց ի բանից եւ ի գործոց   փրկեա  զմեզ՝ ամէն:
Jesus, Wisdom of the Father, give us wisdom, to think, speak and do what is Good before you at all times. And save us from evil thoughts, words and deed, amen.

Offline platypus

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 460
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: allowed, not allowed - used to be catholic questions
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2019, 11:08:41 PM »
- How about catholic saints - there are people like Maximilian Kolbe (who volunteered to die instead of father of a family). What he did makes him unquestionably one of the most heroic and worthy saint (no matter the faith) - but from the Orthodox point of view, catholics are schismatics and die in heresy.

I was taught to cease venerating Roman Catholic saints when I converted to Orthodoxy. This might not be a universal answer though. It's a good idea to ask your priest about it.

We can also find many heroes and saintly people outside Catholicism, or even completely outside of Christianity. For example, I have much respect for Marcus Aurelius (pagan) and Malcolm X (Muslim). But I don't pray to them. We can definitely recognize the good in people and benefit from their example without venerating them as a saint.
"Eternal truth finds no favorable soil where one encounters at every turn the skeptical, sarcastic query 'what is truth,' where life insurance takes the place of eternal hope." -Hieromonk Antonius

Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. -Ecclesiastes 12:8


Offline WPM

  • Citizenii Populii
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,066
  • I am the Root of Existence
  • Faith: Buddhist
Re: allowed, not allowed - used to be catholic questions
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2019, 11:14:56 PM »
It would be good to address such questions to his, local, priest. But if it's difficult, :

One should pray with Orthodox prayers. The distortion of doctrine inevitably affects the Liturgy and asceticism.

(Blessing on TV? Funny) by Accepting the Pope's blessing, you acknowledge his spiritual authority. For the Orthodox this is unacceptable. Of course, need to keep the love of others.

The other day the Pope comes to Bulgaria, if I am not mistaken. And he addressed a request for joint actions to the Bulgarian Orthodox Church. The Church authorities reluctantly agreed to some meetings, but: no joint services, prayers, or even just vestments in liturgical clothes. Even refused to provide an Orthodox deacon as a translator. Think about it.

The saints, glorified before the schism, are venerated without problems. On-good, on this place it would be necessary to stop. But recently there was an alarming situation when the Orthodox saints included people who lived before the division, but glorified by the Catholic Church after the schism. Many do not agree.

Can't be a Saint regardless of faith. The Holy man is the dwelling place of the Holy spirit, and He is only in the Church of Christ.

Yea the Prophetic TV Gospel Blessing! LOL

Online Sethrak

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,147
  • Faith: Armenian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Etchmiadzin, Armenia
Re: allowed, not allowed - used to be catholic questions
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2019, 12:54:56 AM »
The rosary is prayer to Christ and The Mother of God ~ there is no cross purpose here, unless we invent one ```


Aust Yezoo Parin ```
Իմաստութիւն Հոր Յիսուս՝ տո՝ւր մեզ իաստուփին՝ զբարիս խորհել եւ խոսել եւ գործել առաջի Քո յամենայն ժամ : եւ ի չար խորհրդոց ի բանից եւ ի գործոց   փրկեա  զմեզ՝ ամէն:
Jesus, Wisdom of the Father, give us wisdom, to think, speak and do what is Good before you at all times. And save us from evil thoughts, words and deed, amen.

Offline Ariend

  • Your average American Orthodox Christian
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Diocese of North America
Re: allowed, not allowed - used to be catholic questions
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2019, 02:38:38 AM »
- is it allowed for an Orthodox person to pray a catholic rosary ("Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.") - of course with an exception of the Symbol of Faith (I believe in God...)
Yeah, you can pray the Rosary, but it shouldn't be used in the place of Orthodox prayers. You can also say the Creed with it if you want, just omit the Filioque.

- what should an Orthodox do in the presence of Papal blessing (e.g. you're in a room with your family and on TV Pope Francis is giving his blessing "In the name of Father...". And every catholic in the room make a sign of the cross. Can an Orthodox also make a sign of the cross and receive the blessing? Or is it a sin?)
I recommend to make the Sign of the Cross during regular prayer, but not when receiving a blessing. Like isxodnik said, you are acknowledging the spiritual authority of the person giving the blessing if you receive it. But when a Catholic prayer is going on and they say something like "In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", then it's fine.

- is it a sin for an Orthodox to go with his or her family to attend traditional blessing of food on catholic Great Saturday? If a catholic priest blesses the basket - can the Orthodox person cross themselves or is it a sin? :P
Nope, not a sin. Go be with your family! ;D
As for the Sign of the Cross, once again, I wouldn't cross myself.

- How about catholic saints - there are people like Maximilian Kolbe (who volunteered to die instead of father of a family). What he did makes him unquestionably one of the most heroic and worthy saint (no matter the faith) - but from the Orthodox point of view, catholics are schismatics and die in heresy.
You can respect them, but you shouldn't pray to them. However, there are tons of saints, both in the West and East, that are considered saints by both Catholics and Orthodox, as they lived before the Great Schism. You can pray to them.
I don't think Orthodox teaching is that Catholic saints "die" in heresy. They may be worthy to enter the Kingdom of God. Rather, we do not venerate them because we venerate people we can fully model our lives after, and we shouldn't fully model our lives after Catholic saints because it means accepting the false teachings of Roman Catholicism.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 02:43:04 AM by Ariend »
How magnified are Thy works, O Lord! In wisdom hast Thou made them all.

Offline noahzarc1

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 564
Re: allowed, not allowed - used to be catholic questions
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2019, 04:29:43 AM »
Can you help me with the following :)

- is it allowed for an Orthodox person to pray a catholic rosary ("Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.") - of course with an exception of the Symbol of Faith (I believe in God...)

- what should an Orthodox do in the presence of Papal blessing (e.g. you're in a room with your family and on TV Pope Francis is giving his blessing "In the name of Father...". And every catholic in the room make a sign of the cross. Can an Orthodox also make a sign of the cross and receive the blessing? Or is it a sin?)

- is it a sin for an Orthodox to go with his or her family to attend traditional blessing of food on catholic Great Saturday? If a catholic priest blesses the basket - can the Orthodox person cross themselves or is it a sin? :P

- How about catholic saints - there are people like Maximilian Kolbe (who volunteered to die instead of father of a family). What he did makes him unquestionably one of the most heroic and worthy saint (no matter the faith) - but from the Orthodox point of view, catholics are schismatics and die in heresy.

On the other hand, Archimandrit Zinon made a couple of icons depicting catholic saints... What should be an Orthodox position on the subject of catholic saints?

Thanks :)
It is commonly stated the schism between east and west was 1054. However, as you dig deeper, perhaps the schism really germinated around the late 12th or 13th century. Definitely by the time Rome held the council at Trent there had already been some nasty language and firm positions held by both sides against the other and I (personally) think by Vatican I (1868) what emerged was a proclamation from which Rome could not retreat and to which the east would not assent. Why do I say all of this?

The things upon which the east and west are divided there seems to be quite the chasm between the positions that reconciliation seems to be growing more impossible to fix (without serious concessions.) However, the things upon which both sides agree, both sides are merely two neighbors standing at their backyard fence having a cordial conversation. Yes, one neighbor is on one side and one is on the other, but beyond that there is much to agree upon.

Therefore as noted by many already, talk to your priest or confessor. The term "heretic" and "schismatic" is thrown around a lot more loosely on the internet than actually one would find being used in real life. I have always found that the advice I read and hear on the internet is almost always diametrically opposed to advice from a priest in private consultation on the exact same topics.

Lastly, the eastern mind set is most helpful for the western trained Catholic in helping to resolve the "right and wrong" "yes and no" "good and bad" "sin/no sin" questions we were often taught. I think our western minds were trained to be more linear and we often approach all theological topics from the "right and wrong" way of seeing a situation. The eastern mindset has a different approach on many of the same topics. In all of this I have learned to see the beauty of how the Western theology developed, but I no longer allow it to be a hinderance to not accepting, learning from and loving the eastern mind on these same matters.

God be with you. 
"While we fight about words, take advantage of ambiguities, criticize authors, fight on party questions, have difficulty in agreeing, and prepare to anathematize each other, there is scarce a man who belongs to Christ." - Hilary of Poitiers (367)