Author Topic: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?  (Read 674 times)

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Offline Mercurius1

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State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« on: April 25, 2019, 10:11:02 AM »
Really curious about how the Church is doing overall in Greece, was reading an old article from AFR talking about some programs from the early 2000's that were put in place to get young people re-engaged in the Church.


Anecdotally it seems like Serbia, Albania, Russia, etc., are recovering well religion-wise from Communism, was wondering if Orthodoxy in Greece was doing well or if it is in decline?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2019, 10:49:59 AM »
Based solely on what I've heard from Greek-American priests who have been there and back, it's in pretty rough shape. I remember a priest saying, "I fear for the church of Greece", talking about the church attendance he witnessed there and a near complete absence of children at services.
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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2019, 12:17:30 PM »
The late Archbishop Christodoulos was very popular with young people. His successors (not putting it solely on Archbishop Jerome) have had less pull, and aren't even trying. There have been a few vocal bishops giving the entire Church a bad name, nothing new there, but more visible due to social media. Weekly attendance is not a big thing, but feast days are always crowded.

The Church has been supporting people through the recession years, with meals and all, but that's not exactly publicity, because good works don't make headlines.

As with any Orthodox nation, the Church is taken for granted. That may change if and when the separation from the state goes through.
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Offline Katechon

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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2019, 04:44:26 PM »
Based solely on what I've heard from Greek-American priests who have been there and back, it's in pretty rough shape. I remember a priest saying, "I fear for the church of Greece", talking about the church attendance he witnessed there and a near complete absence of children at services.

Oh, I think Greece has in general a problem with overaging. It is in fact witnessable throughout all of Western Europe.

Offline reclusivus

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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2019, 05:14:55 PM »
Based solely on what I've heard from Greek-American priests who have been there and back, it's in pretty rough shape. I remember a priest saying, "I fear for the church of Greece", talking about the church attendance he witnessed there and a near complete absence of children at services.

Oh, I think Greece has in general a problem with overaging. It is in fact witnessable throughout all of Western Europe.

"Why have kids when I could party and have fun and more money?"

"Okay, well, your choice. Here to fill the labor gap I'll let refugees come instead" - How I imagine God responds

To put it tragically I think Europe now is just a living testament that we can never have things TOO good and comfortable or we will follow demons instead of God.

The "happiest" countries in the world like Sweden and Denmark are also among the most godless. It's perplexing, but then again this is a problem as old as the Ancient Hebrews in their struggles with the Law and punishment from God is it not?

I can personally testify to my own life that the moments where I have a fire under my butt are the ones where I heed Christ most closely. Of course there are people who can be pious in a penthouse, but the general trend seems to be that a man with no grievances (beyond the petty "first world problems" we invent) is a man with no faith.

Speaking on a very general note, the Europeans with most integrity and morality seem to come either from former Soviet-aligned countries where they had to struggle and/or from the countryside. There's an old family friend from East Germany who fled to America, he knows how to fix almost anything because he had to, and he has very healthy and organized habits and self-discipline. His children are Americanized and seem to not have his ethics he learned out of struggle although he tries hard to keep them healthy and responsible. And he is successful I would say, although he has a habit of perhaps giving them too much things because he projects the wants he had as a kid in DDR.

It hurts because I hate seeing suffering but I know our Adamic nature has tainted us to be rebellious to God. You can coddle someone forever but it runs a high risk of making them spoiled and not treating life seriously, and becoming materialistic. If/when I become a father I can't imagine being a strict parent, I guess the mother will have to take charge. :-\
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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2019, 04:08:21 PM »
Based solely on what I've heard from Greek-American priests who have been there and back, it's in pretty rough shape. I remember a priest saying, "I fear for the church of Greece", talking about the church attendance he witnessed there and a near complete absence of children at services.

Oh, I think Greece has in general a problem with overaging. It is in fact witnessable throughout all of Western Europe.

"Why have kids when I could party and have fun and more money work stupid hours for peanuts, assuming I work at all, and can hardly feed what family I already have?"

Fixed it for you.
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Offline biro

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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2019, 06:16:12 PM »
So, immigrants are responsible for the problems of Orthodoxy in Greece. They aren't even Orthodox. How on Earth can they cause the problems which were longstanding in someone else's faith?

Also, the Bible says, "You shall not oppress the stranger among you, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."

If you live in America, unless you're Native American, you're descended from immigrants. Period.

Stop this racist nonsense.
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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2019, 07:37:53 PM »
Also, the Bible says, "You shall not oppress the stranger among you, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."

Also, the Bible says to pay your taxes, respect the government and its laws, and protect the integrity of borders.
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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2019, 08:12:25 PM »
Also, the Bible says, "You shall not oppress the stranger among you, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."

Also, the Bible says to pay your taxes, respect the government and its laws

Yes, it does. But the anti-immigrant crowd doesn't seem to be able or willing to distinguish between the immigrants who respect those laws and the ones who don't. Instead it deports them all without distinction or shows them no mercy for minor violations that could happen to anybody or throws their children in cages. But, "some, I assume, are good people."

and protect the integrity of borders.

When they're starving to death or being murdered in their country of origin, this is straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2019, 08:40:23 PM »
Also, the Bible says, "You shall not oppress the stranger among you, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."

Also, the Bible says to pay your taxes, respect the government and its laws

Yes, it does. But the anti-immigrant crowd doesn't seem to be able or willing to distinguish between the immigrants who respect those laws and the ones who don't. Instead it deports them all without distinction or shows them no mercy for minor violations that could happen to anybody or throws their children in cages. But, "some, I assume, are good people."

and protect the integrity of borders.

When they're starving to death or being murdered in their country of origin, this is straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.

There’s a lot of sensationalism on both sides of these debates.  But I think it’s awful and unbecoming for so-called Christians to quote the Bible out of context only when it serves their respective agendas and become militantly secularist when it doesn’t.  All such people are unbelievers and the faithful would like them to stop raping Scripture.
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Offline biro

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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2019, 10:00:05 PM »
So, Mor looks anti-immigrant too.

See the irony?

Whenever I quote the Bible, I'm wrong.

Whenever he quotes it, he's right.

Funny how the word of God works out that way.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2019, 10:05:31 PM »
Also, the Bible says, "You shall not oppress the stranger among you, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."

Also, the Bible says to pay your taxes, respect the government and its laws, and protect the integrity of borders.

Christ is Risen!

Where does the Bible say to "protect the integrity of borders?"

Thank You.

PS:  They talk about defending the borders at this site which doesn't look Orthodox to me.

PSS: The above link comes from a Baptist church's website whose site hasn't been updated since 2018.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 10:15:38 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2019, 11:25:44 PM »
So, Mor looks anti-immigrant too.

See the irony?

Yes, I do.  My parents, along with the overwhelming majority of my family, church members, etc., are immigrants.  I’m not unfamiliar with the immigrant experience.  I’m part of the immigrant experience.

Quote
Whenever I quote the Bible, I'm wrong.

Whenever he quotes it, he's right.
 

I quote it not to prove you wrong or me right, but to put it in perspective.  I’m not sorry about how that inconveniences you.

Quote
Funny how the word of God works out that way.

The word of God doesn’t work that way.  That’s why I’m calling out the prostitution of Scripture. 

Liberals and conservatives: stop sex trafficking the Bible.
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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2019, 11:30:38 PM »
Also, the Bible says, "You shall not oppress the stranger among you, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."

Also, the Bible says to pay your taxes, respect the government and its laws, and protect the integrity of borders.

Christ is Risen!

Where does the Bible say to "protect the integrity of borders?"

Thank You.

Truly he is risen!

Proverbs 22.28.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2019, 08:12:56 AM »
Quote
"Why have kids when I could party and have fun and more money work stupid hours for peanuts, assuming I work at all, and can hardly feed what family I already have?"

I don't how Greece works in that matter, but some european countries reward families with a lot of children with tax exemptions and welfare.


Did I miss something? I didn't see anyone blaming immigrants for the crisis in the greek church.


Offline Tzimis

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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2019, 09:36:46 AM »
Quote
"Why have kids when I could party and have fun and more money work stupid hours for peanuts, assuming I work at all, and can hardly feed what family I already have?"

I don't how Greece works in that matter, but some european countries reward families with a lot of children with tax exemptions and welfare.


Did I miss something? I didn't see anyone blaming immigrants for the crisis in the greek church.
Its an attempt by government to increase the population. Because it is dying a slow death.

Greece is seeing a large exodus by the young population because of economic hardship. They call it brain drain. This is happening throughout the whole Balkan region in general. Most young Greeks are highly educated and feel that the county hasn't done enough to provide decent paying jobs for there youth to stay and thrive. Its a big problem because the talent is leaving. They aren't coming back either.

This is also perpetuated by the powers of Europe especially Germany and France to draw out the talent from these states.


Offline juliogb

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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2019, 12:02:44 PM »
Quote
"Why have kids when I could party and have fun and more money work stupid hours for peanuts, assuming I work at all, and can hardly feed what family I already have?"

I don't how Greece works in that matter, but some european countries reward families with a lot of children with tax exemptions and welfare.


Did I miss something? I didn't see anyone blaming immigrants for the crisis in the greek church.
Its an attempt by government to increase the population. Because it is dying a slow death.

Greece is seeing a large exodus by the young population because of economic hardship. They call it brain drain. This is happening throughout the whole Balkan region in general. Most young Greeks are highly educated and feel that the county hasn't done enough to provide decent paying jobs for there youth to stay and thrive. Its a big problem because the talent is leaving. They aren't coming back either.

This is also perpetuated by the powers of Europe especially Germany and France to draw out the talent from these states.

I saw that when I was in Spain last year, lots of young people with university diplomas working in restaurants as waiters, gas stations and tourist atraction parking lots, and a lot of unemployed youth as well.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 12:04:08 PM by juliogb »

Offline Apostolos

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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2019, 12:25:24 PM »
Greece is seeing a large exodus by the young population because of economic hardship. They call it brain drain. This is happening throughout the whole Balkan region in general. Most young Greeks are highly educated and feel that the county hasn't done enough to provide decent paying jobs for there youth to stay and thrive. Its a big problem because the talent is leaving. They aren't coming back either.

This is also perpetuated by the powers of Europe especially Germany and France to draw out the talent from these states.
It's not a Greek thing only, most of southern Europe experiences "brain drain". The UK draws out young doctors and nurses (I'm sure Arachne can confirm it) most Greek young talented doctors and nurses are lured by the higher wages the UK provides.

I don't how Greece works in that matter, but some european countries reward families with a lot of children with tax exemptions and welfare.
Yes it was the norm up until the crisis broke out that families with many children received financial aid from the state or had tax excemptions (I know it first hand, as I'm from a family of four children and my mother received an "honorary pension" up until 2013-14). The crisis either changed the criteria one should fit in order to receive it (i.e. financial threshold, above a certain income you lost the pension), or was totally abrogated. The irony is that when the church took over the financial aid in Thrace (in the region of Greek Western Thrace the population is 60% Orthodox Christian, 40% Muslim, a remnant of our Ottoman past), the birth rate among Christians was raised significantly*

*The Church decided to help financially only the Christian families, the muslim ones, being much more poorer than the Christian ones, receive financial aid from the state uninterruptibly even to this day; the government cancelled the financial aid to the Christian families as most of them exceeded the income threshold the politicians (pressed by the Germans mostly) imposed.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2019, 03:04:35 PM »
Quote
"Why have kids when I could party and have fun and more money work stupid hours for peanuts, assuming I work at all, and can hardly feed what family I already have?"

I don't how Greece works in that matter, but some european countries reward families with a lot of children with tax exemptions and welfare.


Did I miss something? I didn't see anyone blaming immigrants for the crisis in the greek church.
Its an attempt by government to increase the population. Because it is dying a slow death.

Greece is seeing a large exodus by the young population because of economic hardship. They call it brain drain. This is happening throughout the whole Balkan region in general. Most young Greeks are highly educated and feel that the county hasn't done enough to provide decent paying jobs for there youth to stay and thrive. Its a big problem because the talent is leaving. They aren't coming back either.

This is also perpetuated by the powers of Europe especially Germany and France to draw out the talent from these states.

I saw that when I was in Spain last year, lots of young people with university diplomas working in restaurants as waiters, gas stations and tourist atraction parking lots, and a lot of unemployed youth as well.
Yes. A big part of it is infrastructure or lack of it. I have to say though. That greece in particular is setting up for a better future.  The amount of funds spent in recent years on highways and infrastructure is amazing.  Even from a westerners perspective.  The whole highway system has been completly revamped. Its actually quite amazing to drive these roads as they cut through entire mountains. 4 and 5 lanes wide. I just hope the greeks can hold out before leaving. They are certainly getting set up for a better future.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2019, 03:15:21 PM »
Greece is seeing a large exodus by the young population because of economic hardship. They call it brain drain. This is happening throughout the whole Balkan region in general. Most young Greeks are highly educated and feel that the county hasn't done enough to provide decent paying jobs for there youth to stay and thrive. Its a big problem because the talent is leaving. They aren't coming back either.

This is also perpetuated by the powers of Europe especially Germany and France to draw out the talent from these states.
It's not a Greek thing only, most of southern Europe experiences "brain drain". The UK draws out young doctors and nurses (I'm sure Arachne can confirm it) most Greek young talented doctors and nurses are lured by the higher wages the UK provides.

Sure. Hopefully the problem is a temporary one. We came to the US for similar reasons in the 70s.  I do visit relatives often and own properties in Greece.

I think Greece is going to enter a new era soon.

 Modernization shouldn't impede our religious affiliations but, complement them. Balancing our lives is the difficult part.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 03:18:01 PM by Tzimis »

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Re: State of Orthodoxy in Greece?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2019, 09:02:33 AM »
Greece is seeing a large exodus by the young population because of economic hardship. They call it brain drain. This is happening throughout the whole Balkan region in general. Most young Greeks are highly educated and feel that the county hasn't done enough to provide decent paying jobs for there youth to stay and thrive. Its a big problem because the talent is leaving. They aren't coming back either.

This is also perpetuated by the powers of Europe especially Germany and France to draw out the talent from these states.
It's not a Greek thing only, most of southern Europe experiences "brain drain". The UK draws out young doctors and nurses (I'm sure Arachne can confirm it) most Greek young talented doctors and nurses are lured by the higher wages the UK provides.

Sure. Hopefully the problem is a temporary one. We came to the US for similar reasons in the 70s.  I do visit relatives often and own properties in Greece.

I think Greece is going to enter a new era soon.

 Modernization shouldn't impede our religious affiliations but, complement them. Balancing our lives is the difficult part.

All problems are temporary, but over half a million people have left the country since the recession started, and it doesn't look like they'll be back any time soon.

A few population stats: http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/greece-population/
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