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Author Topic: Official stance of the RCC on orthodoxy  (Read 7487 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #180 on: February 24, 2012, 12:53:04 PM »

A common misunderstanding, I'm afraid.  The Pope is the head of the Church on earth.  The ultimate and absolute Head of the Church is Christ Himself.  No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Okay, but that's the point FrHLL was making--Rome has 'two heads' - one for the Church on earth and one overall. This actually is different from Orthodoxy where no one is the 'head of the Church' (with or without the caveat of 'on earth') except Christ.
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« Reply #181 on: February 24, 2012, 01:03:24 PM »

Genuine question: Is it not the Roman Catholic position that the Pope is the head of the Church (for example)?

The Catholic Encyclopedia, in the article you linked to, says

Quote
The proof that Christ constituted St. Peter head of His Church is found in the two famous Petrine texts, Matthew 16:17-19, and John 21:15-17.

But if there's one thing I've learned in all my years of studying and discussing the Catholic Encyclopedia it's this: don't pay too much attention to the Catholic Encyclopedia.
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« Reply #182 on: February 24, 2012, 01:04:42 PM »

A common misunderstanding, I'm afraid.  The Pope is the head of the Church on earth.  The ultimate and absolute Head of the Church is Christ Himself.  No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Okay, but that's the point FrHLL was making--Rome has 'two heads' - one for the Church on earth and one overall. This actually is different from Orthodoxy where no one is the 'head of the Church' (with or without the caveat of 'on earth') except Christ.

There can only be one Head.  That is Christ Himself.  No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

If you want to discuss the differences in the roles of popes, patriarchs, and bishops as they've evolved over the centuries in both our Churches, I think that's a different discussion.  The Pope is only head of the Church in the sense of being Christ's vicar, His representative here in human form.  He is **NOT** the Head of the Church.  I'm not sure why that is difficult to understand.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, #782: "The People of God is marked by characteristics that clearly distinguish it from all other religious, ethnic, political, or cultural groups found in history:

- It is the People of God: God is not the property of any one people. But he acquired a people for himself from those who previously were not a people: "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation."202

- One becomes a member of this people not by a physical birth, but by being "born anew," a birth "of water and the Spirit,"203 that is, by faith in Christ, and Baptism.

- This People has for its Head Jesus the Christ (the anointed, the Messiah). Because the same anointing, the Holy Spirit, flows from the head into the body, this is "the messianic people."

- "The status of this people is that of the dignity and freedom of the sons of God, in whose hearts the Holy Spirit dwells as in a temple."

- "Its law is the new commandment to love as Christ loved us."204 This is the "new" law of the Holy Spirit.205

- Its mission is to be salt of the earth and light of the world.206 This people is "a most sure seed of unity, hope, and salvation for the whole human race."

- Its destiny, finally, "is the Kingdom of God which has been begun by God himself on earth and which must be further extended until it has been brought to perfection by him at the end of time."207
"

And, #792: "Christ "is the head of the body, the Church."225 He is the principle of creation and redemption. Raised to the Father's glory, "in everything he [is] preeminent,"226 especially in the Church, through whom he extends his reign over all things."

And, #807: "The Church is this Body of which Christ is the head: she lives from him, in him, and for him; he lives with her and in her."

And, #947: "Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others. . . . We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ, since he is the head. . . . Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments."480 "As this Church is governed by one and the same Spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund."

And, #1698: "The first and last point of reference of this catechesis will always be Jesus Christ himself, who is "the way, and the truth, and the life."24 It is by looking to him in faith that Christ's faithful can hope that he himself fulfills his promises in them, and that, by loving him with the same love with which he has loved them, they may perform works in keeping with their dignity:

    I ask you to consider that our Lord Jesus Christ is your true head, and that you are one of his members. He belongs to you as the head belongs to its members; all that is his is yours: his spirit, his heart, his body and soul, and all his faculties. You must make use of all these as of your own, to serve, praise, love, and glorify God. You belong to him, as members belong to their head. And so he longs for you to use all that is in you, as if it were his own, for the service and glory of the Father."25


    For to me, to live is Christ.26

Hope that helps  Wink Wink!
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« Reply #183 on: February 24, 2012, 01:22:57 PM »

The Pope is only head of the Church in the sense of being Christ's vicar, His representative here in human form.  He is **NOT** the Head of the Church.  I'm not sure why that is difficult to understand.

I think a part of the problem is that most people don't understand imprimaturs. A typical conversation goes something like this ...


Orthodox poster: Aha! The Catholic Encyclopedia says X!
Catholic poster: True, but that isn't official Catholic teaching.
Orthodox poster: But X has to be the official Catholic teaching. The  Catholic Encyclopedia says so!
Catholic poster: Huh?
Orthodox poster: The Catholic Encyclopedia is official Catholic teaching. It has an imprimatur!
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« Reply #184 on: February 24, 2012, 01:33:43 PM »

The Pope is only head of the Church in the sense of being Christ's vicar, His representative here in human form.  He is **NOT** the Head of the Church.  I'm not sure why that is difficult to understand.

I think a part of the problem is that most people don't understand imprimaturs. A typical conversation goes something like this ...


Orthodox poster: Aha! The Catholic Encyclopedia says X!
Catholic poster: True, but that isn't official Catholic teaching.
Orthodox poster: But X has to be the official Catholic teaching. The  Catholic Encyclopedia says so!
Catholic poster: Huh?
Orthodox poster: The Catholic Encyclopedia is official Catholic teaching. It has an imprimatur!

While the Catholic Encyclopedia has an enormous wealth of information and can be highly useful, for discussions like this I think I'd much prefer the authoritative Catechism of the Catholic Church.

I believe there have been other discussions on this forum about just what imprimaturs are and are not.
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« Reply #185 on: February 24, 2012, 01:45:57 PM »

A common misunderstanding, I'm afraid.  The Pope is the head of the Church on earth.  The ultimate and absolute Head of the Church is Christ Himself.  No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Okay, but that's the point FrHLL was making--Rome has 'two heads' - one for the Church on earth and one overall. This actually is different from Orthodoxy where no one is the 'head of the Church' (with or without the caveat of 'on earth') except Christ.

There can only be one Head.  That is Christ Himself.  No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

If you want to discuss the differences in the roles of popes, patriarchs, and bishops as they've evolved over the centuries in both our Churches, I think that's a different discussion.  The Pope is only head of the Church in the sense of being Christ's vicar, His representative here in human form.  He is **NOT** the Head of the Church.  I'm not sure why that is difficult to understand.

Uh. Because you just *said* he *is* the head of the Church on earth.

I'm well aware that the Catholic Encyclopedia is not definitive. That's why I started by asking the question and referencing the Catholic Encylopedia as an 'example' of RC's saying the Pope as the head of the Church rather than as a proof of anything. I then responded to *your* post without reference to the Encyclopedia.
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« Reply #186 on: February 24, 2012, 01:59:16 PM »

A common misunderstanding, I'm afraid.  The Pope is the head of the Church on earth.  The ultimate and absolute Head of the Church is Christ Himself.  No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Okay, but that's the point FrHLL was making--Rome has 'two heads' - one for the Church on earth and one overall. This actually is different from Orthodoxy where no one is the 'head of the Church' (with or without the caveat of 'on earth') except Christ.

There can only be one Head.  That is Christ Himself.  No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

If you want to discuss the differences in the roles of popes, patriarchs, and bishops as they've evolved over the centuries in both our Churches, I think that's a different discussion.  The Pope is only head of the Church in the sense of being Christ's vicar, His representative here in human form.  He is **NOT** the Head of the Church.  I'm not sure why that is difficult to understand.

Uh. Because you just *said* he *is* the head of the Church on earth.

I'm well aware that the Catholic Encyclopedia is not definitive. That's why I started by asking the question and referencing the Catholic Encylopedia as an 'example' of RC's saying the Pope as the head of the Church rather than as a proof of anything. I then responded to *your* post without reference to the Encyclopedia.

You, amongst others, *appear* to misunderstand that by "head of the Church on earth", what is meant is that the Pope is the representative of Christ, the chief ("head") pastor.  Christ is and always has been the Head of the Church.  Notice my use of upper case and lower case "h" in this discussion.  Sort of analogous to "O"rthodox and "o"rthodox.  I think the CCC is pretty clear and unequivocal on just who the Head of the Church is.  I don't think I can add anything to that.
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« Reply #187 on: February 24, 2012, 02:05:08 PM »

While the Catholic Encyclopedia has an enormous wealth of information and can be highly useful, for discussions like this I think I'd much prefer the authoritative Catechism of the Catholic Church.

That's another thing about discussions: preferences.
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« Reply #188 on: February 24, 2012, 02:14:22 PM »

A common misunderstanding, I'm afraid.  The Pope is the head of the Church on earth.  The ultimate and absolute Head of the Church is Christ Himself.  No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Okay, but that's the point FrHLL was making--Rome has 'two heads' - one for the Church on earth and one overall. This actually is different from Orthodoxy where no one is the 'head of the Church' (with or without the caveat of 'on earth') except Christ.

Yeah, because there are no canons and no Patriarchs and no Councils.  Roll Eyes Sigh. And we wonder why this $%#& has dragged on for 950 years.
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« Reply #189 on: February 24, 2012, 02:16:51 PM »

A common misunderstanding, I'm afraid.  The Pope is the head of the Church on earth.  The ultimate and absolute Head of the Church is Christ Himself.  No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Okay, but that's the point FrHLL was making--Rome has 'two heads' - one for the Church on earth and one overall. This actually is different from Orthodoxy where no one is the 'head of the Church' (with or without the caveat of 'on earth') except Christ.
But is not the Bishop the head of the local Church in Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #190 on: February 24, 2012, 02:23:00 PM »

Quote
Okay, but that's the point FrHLL was making--Rome has 'two heads' - one for the Church on earth and one overall. This actually is different from Orthodoxy where no one is the 'head of the Church' (with or without the caveat of 'on earth') except Christ.

Yeah, because there are no canons and no Patriarchs and no Councils.  

I assume the Orthodox will say that a Bishop, even a Patriarch, can't be head of the whole Church, but only of part of it.
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« Reply #191 on: February 24, 2012, 02:26:34 PM »

So they have many heads instead of one. Not even to talk about the Ecumenical Patriarch... ahem... move along, nothing to see.

(And never mind that Pope Shenouda guy for the Copts-- pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!)

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There is no spoon.

We have always been at war with Eastasia.

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« Reply #192 on: February 24, 2012, 02:28:00 PM »

Quote
But is not the Bishop the head of the local Church in Orthodoxy?
Yes, but he is not any higher than any other bishop. You know that. The pope was like this as well until he started investing in property Smiley

PP
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« Reply #193 on: February 24, 2012, 02:31:48 PM »

A common misunderstanding, I'm afraid.  The Pope is the head of the Church on earth.  The ultimate and absolute Head of the Church is Christ Himself.  No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Okay, but that's the point FrHLL was making--Rome has 'two heads' - one for the Church on earth and one overall. This actually is different from Orthodoxy where no one is the 'head of the Church' (with or without the caveat of 'on earth') except Christ.

Yeah, because there are no canons and no Patriarchs and no Councils.  Roll Eyes Sigh. And we wonder why this $%#& has dragged on for 950 years.

Who has "...no canons and no Patriarchs and no Councils"?
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« Reply #194 on: February 24, 2012, 02:33:45 PM »

A common misunderstanding, I'm afraid.  The Pope is the head of the Church on earth.  The ultimate and absolute Head of the Church is Christ Himself.  No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Okay, but that's the point FrHLL was making--Rome has 'two heads' - one for the Church on earth and one overall. This actually is different from Orthodoxy where no one is the 'head of the Church' (with or without the caveat of 'on earth') except Christ.

Yeah, because there are no canons and no Patriarchs and no Councils.  Roll Eyes Sigh. And we wonder why this $%#& has dragged on for 950 years.

Who has "...no canons and no Patriarchs and no Councils"?

I think her point was that Orthodoxy actually does have canons and Patriarchs and Councils.
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« Reply #195 on: February 24, 2012, 02:34:41 PM »

Quote
But is not the Bishop the head of the local Church in Orthodoxy?
Yes, but he is not any higher than any other bishop. You know that. The pope was like this as well until he started investing in property Smiley

PP


Orthodox bishops don't invest in property?  How can they afford, then, to drive around in Cadillac stretch limos, wear those Rolex watches, and so on?  Seen it with my own eyes  Shocked!
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« Reply #196 on: February 24, 2012, 02:35:13 PM »

I was being sarcastic. I meant the Orthodox.

Of course they have Earthly heads. To imply that they don't, but those awful awful Roman Catholics do, is ridiculous.

If they want to call it something else, that's all they're doing. Calling it something. A rose by any other name...
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« Reply #197 on: February 24, 2012, 02:38:52 PM »

A common misunderstanding, I'm afraid.  The Pope is the head of the Church on earth.  The ultimate and absolute Head of the Church is Christ Himself.  No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Okay, but that's the point FrHLL was making--Rome has 'two heads' - one for the Church on earth and one overall. This actually is different from Orthodoxy where no one is the 'head of the Church' (with or without the caveat of 'on earth') except Christ.

Yeah, because there are no canons and no Patriarchs and no Councils.  Roll Eyes Sigh. And we wonder why this $%#& has dragged on for 950 years.

Who has "...no canons and no Patriarchs and no Councils"?

I think her point was that Orthodoxy actually does have canons and Patriarchs and Councils.

Just like the Catholic Church!  (Maybe the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are really the same Church  Shocked  Roll Eyes Shocked Roll Eyes.  But, shhhhhh....don't tell anyone I even suggested it Grin.)

And, in addition to the canons, the Catholic Church has the Swiss Guards!  Grin
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« Reply #198 on: February 24, 2012, 02:39:46 PM »

Yay for halberds!  Grin
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« Reply #199 on: February 24, 2012, 02:48:39 PM »

I was being sarcastic. I meant the Orthodox.

Of course they have Earthly heads. To imply that they don't, but those awful awful Roman Catholics do, is ridiculous.

If they want to call it something else, that's all they're doing. Calling it something. A rose by any other name...

You mean the Orthodox Church has multiple heads??  Don't tell Fahder HLL!
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« Reply #200 on: February 24, 2012, 03:02:22 PM »

I was being sarcastic. I meant the Orthodox.

Of course they have Earthly heads. To imply that they don't, but those awful awful Roman Catholics do, is ridiculous.

If they want to call it something else, that's all they're doing. Calling it something. A rose by any other name...

You mean the Orthodox Church has multiple heads??  Don't tell Fahder HLL!

Are you hinting at the ancient heresy of medusaism?
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« Reply #201 on: February 24, 2012, 03:10:17 PM »

I was being sarcastic. I meant the Orthodox.

Of course they have Earthly heads. To imply that they don't, but those awful awful Roman Catholics do, is ridiculous.

If they want to call it something else, that's all they're doing. Calling it something. A rose by any other name...

You mean the Orthodox Church has multiple heads??  Don't tell Fahder HLL!

Are you hinting at the ancient heresy of medusaism?


Eeeuwww!  I hate snakes!  No, I was referring to the ancient heresy of Lernaean Hydra-ism.
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« Reply #202 on: February 24, 2012, 06:04:44 PM »

I was being sarcastic. I meant the Orthodox.

Of course they have Earthly heads. To imply that they don't, but those awful awful Roman Catholics do, is ridiculous.

If they want to call it something else, that's all they're doing. Calling it something. A rose by any other name...

You mean the Orthodox Church has multiple heads??  Don't tell Fahder HLL!

Are you hinting at the ancient heresy of medusaism?


Eeeuwww!  I hate snakes!  No, I was referring to the ancient heresy of Lernaean Hydra-ism.

AH I completely forgot about that one.  Sheesh you're right again brohammer
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« Reply #203 on: February 24, 2012, 06:09:02 PM »

A common misunderstanding, I'm afraid.  The Pope is the head of the Church on earth.  The ultimate and absolute Head of the Church is Christ Himself.  No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Okay, but that's the point FrHLL was making--Rome has 'two heads' - one for the Church on earth and one overall. This actually is different from Orthodoxy where no one is the 'head of the Church' (with or without the caveat of 'on earth') except Christ.
Having an earthly head is not different than the many earthly heads that the EO Church has in its many bishops, nor is it different than the earthly heads each local Church has in it's one bishop. We all understand that these "heads" are not absolute heads of the Church, but relative heads that only participate in the one "headship" of the one head of the Church, Jesus Christ.
There is a passage in scripture that says that only God is our Father, and that we are not to call any one man father. Does this literally mean that we cannot call our earthly heads "father"? Of course not. But we must understand that these earthly fathers are only fathers in a derivative sense. Only God is our absolute Father, proper. This is why the scriptures state that all paternity is derived from our One God and Father. It doesn't make any other fatherhood any less real, nor do those earthly fatherhoods contradict the fact that we really only have one Father in heaven.
It is similar with the leaders of our Churches. The do exist, but they do not contradict that the one head of our Church is Jesus Christ. These earthly heads are merely heads in a derivative sense.
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« Reply #204 on: February 24, 2012, 06:24:22 PM »

I guess if someone were on their deathbed they'd be leaving the Orthodox Church anyway  Grin.

?
There's one Church. One Church in Heaven, one on earth and they are the same thing. I thought that whatever disputes there may be about where that One Church is on earth, this was an understanding Western "Catholics" shared with Orthodoxy?

Well, if we "Catholics" (Western and Eastern) share this understanding with the OC about One Church in Heaven, one on earth, etc., does that not make us all part of the same One Church? 

The first part of my comment that generated your "?", was a joke.  Did you see the smiley  Grin?

Actually there is a difference in ecclesiology here. 

The Vatican views the "Church on earth" as "militant" and "the Church in heaven" as triumpant.  Orthodoxy views the one Church in heaven and earth before the general resurrection as the Church militant, and the entire Church in heaven and earth after the general resurrection as the Church triumphant.  That is why the RCC needs two heads, and the Orthodox Church needs one.   
Actually, you guys have multiple heads, i.e. all the bishops.

That's nonsense and a complete misrepresentation of Orthodox Theology.  There is only one Great Hierarch (Megas Archiereus) of the Church.  The rest are local Archieries under Him, and all brethren under a single Head.  They have local headship over their dioceses.  In Synod the one who sits as protos is bishop of the See first in honor in the eparchia for the provincial synod, or the dioikesis for the patriarchal synod.     

See what I mean??  From my reply #171 above: "One could just as easily say that the OC has multiple heads, not all of whom always agree with each other--all the various  patriarchs or bishops who head national churches, etc.  If I were to claim that, you would say I'm wrong, and that you have but one head---Christ."  No more nonsensical and no more of a misrepresentation of Orthodox theology than your comments in your post above claiming the Catholic Church needs 2 heads.



(Now, Fahder, does this post qualify for the appellation of "strange", "semi-strange", or "just plain weird"  Grin Cheesy?)


I don't know, but my point was completely dismissed.  The point is that if heaven and earth are indeed "the same church" then there is no earthly head, only one head over heaven and earth. 
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« Reply #205 on: February 24, 2012, 06:25:32 PM »

They do exist, but they do not contradict that the one head of our Church is Jesus Christ.

The Baltimore Catechism describes Christ as the invisible Head of the Church.

Quote
Q. 495. Who is the invisible Head of the Church?
A. Jesus Christ is the invisible Head of the Church.

Q. 496. Who is the visible Head of the Church?
A. Our Holy Father the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, is the Vicar of Christ on earth and the visible Head of the Church.
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« Reply #206 on: February 25, 2012, 10:47:40 AM »

I guess if someone were on their deathbed they'd be leaving the Orthodox Church anyway  Grin.

?
There's one Church. One Church in Heaven, one on earth and they are the same thing. I thought that whatever disputes there may be about where that One Church is on earth, this was an understanding Western "Catholics" shared with Orthodoxy?

Well, if we "Catholics" (Western and Eastern) share this understanding with the OC about One Church in Heaven, one on earth, etc., does that not make us all part of the same One Church? 

The first part of my comment that generated your "?", was a joke.  Did you see the smiley  Grin?

Actually there is a difference in ecclesiology here. 

The Vatican views the "Church on earth" as "militant" and "the Church in heaven" as triumpant.  Orthodoxy views the one Church in heaven and earth before the general resurrection as the Church militant, and the entire Church in heaven and earth after the general resurrection as the Church triumphant.  That is why the RCC needs two heads, and the Orthodox Church needs one.   
Actually, you guys have multiple heads, i.e. all the bishops.

That's nonsense and a complete misrepresentation of Orthodox Theology.  There is only one Great Hierarch (Megas Archiereus) of the Church.  The rest are local Archieries under Him, and all brethren under a single Head.  They have local headship over their dioceses.  In Synod the one who sits as protos is bishop of the See first in honor in the eparchia for the provincial synod, or the dioikesis for the patriarchal synod.     

See what I mean??  From my reply #171 above: "One could just as easily say that the OC has multiple heads, not all of whom always agree with each other--all the various  patriarchs or bishops who head national churches, etc.  If I were to claim that, you would say I'm wrong, and that you have but one head---Christ."  No more nonsensical and no more of a misrepresentation of Orthodox theology than your comments in your post above claiming the Catholic Church needs 2 heads.



(Now, Fahder, does this post qualify for the appellation of "strange", "semi-strange", or "just plain weird"  Grin Cheesy?)


I don't know, but my point was completely dismissed.  The point is that if heaven and earth are indeed "the same church" then there is no earthly head, only one head over heaven and earth. 

C'mon Fahder...No one's dismissing your point.  There *is* only one head.  That is Christ.  He is THE Head of the Church, the *whole* Church.  Did you see my references from the CCC above?
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« Reply #207 on: February 25, 2012, 12:23:05 PM »

I guess if someone were on their deathbed they'd be leaving the Orthodox Church anyway  Grin.

?
There's one Church. One Church in Heaven, one on earth and they are the same thing. I thought that whatever disputes there may be about where that One Church is on earth, this was an understanding Western "Catholics" shared with Orthodoxy?

Well, if we "Catholics" (Western and Eastern) share this understanding with the OC about One Church in Heaven, one on earth, etc., does that not make us all part of the same One Church? 

The first part of my comment that generated your "?", was a joke.  Did you see the smiley  Grin?

Actually there is a difference in ecclesiology here. 

The Vatican views the "Church on earth" as "militant" and "the Church in heaven" as triumpant.  Orthodoxy views the one Church in heaven and earth before the general resurrection as the Church militant, and the entire Church in heaven and earth after the general resurrection as the Church triumphant.  That is why the RCC needs two heads, and the Orthodox Church needs one.   
Actually, you guys have multiple heads, i.e. all the bishops.

That's nonsense and a complete misrepresentation of Orthodox Theology.  There is only one Great Hierarch (Megas Archiereus) of the Church.  The rest are local Archieries under Him, and all brethren under a single Head.  They have local headship over their dioceses.  In Synod the one who sits as protos is bishop of the See first in honor in the eparchia for the provincial synod, or the dioikesis for the patriarchal synod.     

See what I mean??  From my reply #171 above: "One could just as easily say that the OC has multiple heads, not all of whom always agree with each other--all the various  patriarchs or bishops who head national churches, etc.  If I were to claim that, you would say I'm wrong, and that you have but one head---Christ."  No more nonsensical and no more of a misrepresentation of Orthodox theology than your comments in your post above claiming the Catholic Church needs 2 heads.



(Now, Fahder, does this post qualify for the appellation of "strange", "semi-strange", or "just plain weird"  Grin Cheesy?)


I don't know, but my point was completely dismissed.  The point is that if heaven and earth are indeed "the same church" then there is no earthly head, only one head over heaven and earth. 

Papist expresses it better than I in his post just above yours.  Why is this not clear to you, Fahder?  Is there some other point you're trying to make, or is there some other direction you're trying to steer the discussion in?

If you stop using the word "head" in relation to the Pope, and instead substitute the perhaps more accurate word "vicar", i.e. one who serves as a substitute or agent or administrative deputy for another (in this case for Christ), I think your argument collapses in on itself.  The Orthodox Patriarchs and bishops perform, I believe, the same function, do they not?

I really don't know how I or Papist or anyone else could make it clearer than that.  (But I guess if we have to, we'll try  angel.)
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« Reply #208 on: February 25, 2012, 12:56:49 PM »

There *is* only one head.

Are you saying this is the Catholic teaching (as well as being the Orthodox teaching)?
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« Reply #209 on: February 25, 2012, 01:08:14 PM »

The only difference between the other Bishops and the Pope is that the Pope's headship is on a worldwide level. That still doesn't negate Christ's headship because the Pope is the head of the Church militant in the present (i.e. the Catholic Church as it exists right now on Earth). Christ is the absolute head of the Church in all times and places...not to mention the fact that, without Christ, there would be no point in a Church at all, since the Church's sole mission is to spread the gospel of Christ.
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« Reply #210 on: February 25, 2012, 01:28:07 PM »

The only difference between the other Bishops and the Pope is that the Pope's headship is on a worldwide level.

But there seem to be different opinions about whether even that headship on a worldwide level is official Catholic teaching. (It is, according to the Baltimore Catechism, but ... )
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« Reply #211 on: February 25, 2012, 01:56:53 PM »

The only difference between the other Bishops and the Pope is that the Pope's headship is on a worldwide level.

But there seem to be different opinions about whether even that headship on a worldwide level is official Catholic teaching. (It is, according to the Baltimore Catechism, but ... )
Has anyone said that it wasn't official Catholic teaching? I'm honestly asking because I may have missed a post.
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« Reply #212 on: February 25, 2012, 02:00:44 PM »

The only difference between the other Bishops and the Pope is that the Pope's headship is on a worldwide level.

But there seem to be different opinions about whether even that headship on a worldwide level is official Catholic teaching. (It is, according to the Baltimore Catechism, but ... )
Has anyone said that it wasn't official Catholic teaching? I'm honestly asking because I may have missed a post.

I'm not certain; see post #208.
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« Reply #213 on: February 25, 2012, 02:04:35 PM »

...

There *is* only one head.

Quote from: Baltimore Catechism
Q. 495. Who is the invisible Head of the Church?
A. Jesus Christ is the invisible Head of the Church.

Q. 496. Who is the visible Head of the Church?
A. Our Holy Father the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, is the Vicar of Christ on earth and the visible Head of the Church.
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« Reply #214 on: February 25, 2012, 02:59:12 PM »

The only difference between the other Bishops and the Pope is that the Pope's headship is on a worldwide level. That still doesn't negate Christ's headship because the Pope is the head of the Church militant in the present (i.e. the Catholic Church as it exists right now on Earth). Christ is the absolute head of the Church in all times and places...not to mention the fact that, without Christ, there would be no point in a Church at all, since the Church's sole mission is to spread the gospel of Christ.

P.S. I've been thinking about this ^^, and I think you make a good point: saying that the Pope is the head of the Church militant doesn't mean that he is the head of the whole Church.
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« Reply #215 on: February 25, 2012, 03:29:24 PM »

The only difference between the other Bishops and the Pope is that the Pope's headship is on a worldwide level. That still doesn't negate Christ's headship because the Pope is the head of the Church militant in the present (i.e. the Catholic Church as it exists right now on Earth). Christ is the absolute head of the Church in all times and places...not to mention the fact that, without Christ, there would be no point in a Church at all, since the Church's sole mission is to spread the gospel of Christ.

P.S. I've been thinking about this ^^, and I think you make a good point: saying that the Pope is the head of the Church militant doesn't mean that he is the head of the whole Church.

Is "Church militant" one of the sui iuri Churches?
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« Reply #216 on: February 25, 2012, 09:32:41 PM »

The only difference between the other Bishops and the Pope is that the Pope's headship is on a worldwide level. That still doesn't negate Christ's headship because the Pope is the head of the Church militant in the present (i.e. the Catholic Church as it exists right now on Earth). Christ is the absolute head of the Church in all times and places...not to mention the fact that, without Christ, there would be no point in a Church at all, since the Church's sole mission is to spread the gospel of Christ.

P.S. I've been thinking about this ^^, and I think you make a good point: saying that the Pope is the head of the Church militant doesn't mean that he is the head of the whole Church.

Is "Church militant" one of the sui iuri Churches?

 Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

If that was supposed to be funny, you've "missed the mark".  Tongue
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« Reply #217 on: February 25, 2012, 09:39:23 PM »

The only difference between the other Bishops and the Pope is that the Pope's headship is on a worldwide level.

But there seem to be different opinions about whether even that headship on a worldwide level is official Catholic teaching. (It is, according to the Baltimore Catechism, but ... )

What are these other opinions and who holds them? 

I would tend to think that the CCC is fairly authoritative and short of something directly from the Vatican (haven't had time to look for it yet), I'd venture to suggest that it's about as "official" as you can get.  Mary or Papist or someone else more knowledgeable than I might want to correct me if I'm wrong about that, and I'd be happy to be so corrected if wrong.
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« Reply #218 on: February 25, 2012, 10:22:24 PM »

The only difference between the other Bishops and the Pope is that the Pope's headship is on a worldwide level. That still doesn't negate Christ's headship because the Pope is the head of the Church militant in the present (i.e. the Catholic Church as it exists right now on Earth). Christ is the absolute head of the Church in all times and places...not to mention the fact that, without Christ, there would be no point in a Church at all, since the Church's sole mission is to spread the gospel of Christ.

P.S. I've been thinking about this ^^, and I think you make a good point: saying that the Pope is the head of the Church militant doesn't mean that he is the head of the whole Church.

Is "Church militant" one of the sui iuri Churches?
It's just the Mystical Body of Christ on earth.
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« Reply #219 on: February 25, 2012, 10:22:24 PM »

I guess if someone were on their deathbed they'd be leaving the Orthodox Church anyway  Grin.

?
There's one Church. One Church in Heaven, one on earth and they are the same thing. I thought that whatever disputes there may be about where that One Church is on earth, this was an understanding Western "Catholics" shared with Orthodoxy?

Well, if we "Catholics" (Western and Eastern) share this understanding with the OC about One Church in Heaven, one on earth, etc., does that not make us all part of the same One Church? 

The first part of my comment that generated your "?", was a joke.  Did you see the smiley  Grin?

Actually there is a difference in ecclesiology here. 

The Vatican views the "Church on earth" as "militant" and "the Church in heaven" as triumpant.  Orthodoxy views the one Church in heaven and earth before the general resurrection as the Church militant, and the entire Church in heaven and earth after the general resurrection as the Church triumphant.  That is why the RCC needs two heads, and the Orthodox Church needs one.   
Actually, you guys have multiple heads, i.e. all the bishops.

That's nonsense and a complete misrepresentation of Orthodox Theology.  There is only one Great Hierarch (Megas Archiereus) of the Church.  The rest are local Archieries under Him, and all brethren under a single Head.  They have local headship over their dioceses.  In Synod the one who sits as protos is bishop of the See first in honor in the eparchia for the provincial synod, or the dioikesis for the patriarchal synod.     
And we share that same belief. Smiley
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« Reply #220 on: February 25, 2012, 10:22:24 PM »

They do exist, but they do not contradict that the one head of our Church is Jesus Christ.

The Baltimore Catechism describes Christ as the invisible Head of the Church.

Quote
Q. 495. Who is the invisible Head of the Church?
A. Jesus Christ is the invisible Head of the Church.

Q. 496. Who is the visible Head of the Church?
A. Our Holy Father the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, is the Vicar of Christ on earth and the visible Head of the Church.
I fail to see your point? Do you really think that we believe that the Pope is the head of the Church apart from participating in the "headship" of Jesus Christ? If you do, you don't understand us at all.
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« Reply #221 on: February 25, 2012, 10:22:24 PM »

The only difference between the other Bishops and the Pope is that the Pope's headship is on a worldwide level. That still doesn't negate Christ's headship because the Pope is the head of the Church militant in the present (i.e. the Catholic Church as it exists right now on Earth). Christ is the absolute head of the Church in all times and places...not to mention the fact that, without Christ, there would be no point in a Church at all, since the Church's sole mission is to spread the gospel of Christ.

P.S. I've been thinking about this ^^, and I think you make a good point: saying that the Pope is the head of the Church militant doesn't mean that he is the head of the whole Church.
Two problems here. First, you sound as you are trying to make the Church millitant into its own Church. But it is not. It is merely the one Church as presented here on earth. Second, you seem to suggesting that there is some contradiction between there being one head of the Church, Jesus Christ, while the Pope is the head of the earthly Church.
However, this is no more contradictory than the fact that there is One Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ, and the fact that we are all called to pray for eachother and that the saints pray for us in heaven. One is the absolute substantial, primary, ultimate, mediator, through whom all mediation flows. The others derive their ability to mediate, from the One mediator, in whom they participate.
The same can be said of any earthly head of the Church. They only lead by participating in the one "headship" of Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #222 on: February 25, 2012, 11:33:01 PM »

The only difference between the other Bishops and the Pope is that the Pope's headship is on a worldwide level. That still doesn't negate Christ's headship because the Pope is the head of the Church militant in the present (i.e. the Catholic Church as it exists right now on Earth). Christ is the absolute head of the Church in all times and places...not to mention the fact that, without Christ, there would be no point in a Church at all, since the Church's sole mission is to spread the gospel of Christ.

P.S. I've been thinking about this ^^, and I think you make a good point: saying that the Pope is the head of the Church militant doesn't mean that he is the head of the whole Church.
Two problems here. First, you sound as you are trying to make the Church millitant into its own Church. But it is not. It is merely the one Church as presented here on earth. Second, you seem to suggesting that there is some contradiction between there being one head of the Church, Jesus Christ, while the Pope is the head of the earthly Church.

I don't speak for Wyatt, but I don't think that's what he was saying. It definitely isn't what I got out of his post: Rather, the Pope is the head of the Church militant in the present, but Christ is the head of the whole Church. But I guess I should let him speak for himself.
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« Reply #223 on: March 14, 2012, 09:52:45 PM »

I think it's a shame the way this thread came to a rather abrupt halt. Regardless, I think Wyatt made a good point:

The only difference between the other Bishops and the Pope is that the Pope's headship is on a worldwide level. That still doesn't negate Christ's headship because the Pope is the head of the Church militant in the present (i.e. the Catholic Church as it exists right now on Earth). Christ is the absolute head of the Church in all times and places...not to mention the fact that, without Christ, there would be no point in a Church at all, since the Church's sole mission is to spread the gospel of Christ.

I would be interested to hear what Orthodox have to say to this argument.
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« Reply #224 on: March 15, 2012, 12:17:43 AM »

I think it's a shame the way this thread came to a rather abrupt halt. Regardless, I think Wyatt made a good point:

The only difference between the other Bishops and the Pope is that the Pope's headship is on a worldwide level. That still doesn't negate Christ's headship because the Pope is the head of the Church militant in the present (i.e. the Catholic Church as it exists right now on Earth). Christ is the absolute head of the Church in all times and places...not to mention the fact that, without Christ, there would be no point in a Church at all, since the Church's sole mission is to spread the gospel of Christ.

I would be interested to hear what Orthodox have to say to this argument.

No one Apostle has absolute headship of the church, as far as the Orthodox are concerned. The hymnography of the feast of Apostles Peter and Paul puts paid to that, as does that of the other apostles. This conciliarity is clearly expressed in the Orthodox liturgical deposit. Orthodox apostolic authority has always been conciliar, never monarchical.
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