OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 27, 2014, 05:40:36 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Official stance of the RCC on orthodoxy  (Read 7561 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
TruthSeeker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 151


OC.net


« on: November 19, 2005, 01:54:10 AM »

What position does the Roman Catholic church take against orthodoxy? Do they think the orthodox are heretics as they think protestants are? I am talking about the official church stance and not the stance taken by individuals within the church.

Logged

NULL
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2005, 02:41:17 AM »

The Vatican officially says the Orthodox are not heretical but guilty only of schism by not accepting Rome's jurisdiction over the Orthodox.  Rome also views all of our sacraments / mysteries to be valid / grace-filled. 

That is the current Vatican position - the shifting historical attitudes are not so simple... nor do the Orthodox reciprocate Vatican views always. 
Logged
TruthSeeker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 151


OC.net


« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2005, 02:49:38 AM »

The Vatican officially says the Orthodox are not heretical but guilty only of schism by not accepting Rome's jurisdiction over the Orthodox.  Rome also views all of our sacraments / mysteries to be valid / grace-filled. 

That is the current Vatican position - the shifting historical attitudes are not so simple... nor do the Orthodox reciprocate Vatican views always. 


Thank you for the good reply

Can a Roman Catholic take communion in an orthodox church...and visa versa?

Logged

NULL
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,228


that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2005, 03:01:31 AM »

From a Catholic POV, there are no barriers to intercommunion. From an Orthodox POV, however, Orthodox generally cannot (and would have no reason to) partake of Catholic sacraments, nor are Catholics permitted to partake of Orthodox Sacraments (the only exception I know being that Catholics can be communed by an Orthodox priest if they are near death).
Logged
Seafra
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: British Orthodox hopeful
Posts: 240


It's in the shelter of each other that people live

Mr.Dougherty
WWW
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2012, 01:49:08 PM »

From a Catholic POV, there are no barriers to intercommunion. From an Orthodox POV, however, Orthodox generally cannot (and would have no reason to) partake of Catholic sacraments, nor are Catholics permitted to partake of Orthodox Sacraments (the only exception I know being that Catholics can be communed by an Orthodox priest if they are near death).
I am curious if an orthodox is in an area heavily populated mostly by Catholics and there aren't any Orthodox parishes within hours, would this not be a case where Orthodox could have a reason?
Logged
Jonathan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 810


WWW
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2012, 01:56:03 PM »

From a Catholic POV, there are no barriers to intercommunion. From an Orthodox POV, however, Orthodox generally cannot (and would have no reason to) partake of Catholic sacraments, nor are Catholics permitted to partake of Orthodox Sacraments (the only exception I know being that Catholics can be communed by an Orthodox priest if they are near death).
I am curious if an orthodox is in an area heavily populated mostly by Catholics and there aren't any Orthodox parishes within hours, would this not be a case where Orthodox could have a reason?

Generally no...

The Catholic POV is that receiving Communion in the RC Church, in addition to everything else it is, is making a public proclamation of obedience to the Pope, and acceptance of all doctrines of Rome. It is seen as technically becoming Catholic (not for Protestants who would need to be Baptised, but for Orthodox who are already Baptised from Rome's point of view, and are merely in schism... Communing is seen as repenting of the schism). So Communing in a Catholic Church is tantamount to publicly rejecting Orthodoxy, and accepting many teachings foreign to Orthodoxy. Early on, many Orthodox were advised to receive Communion in an Anglican Church, which was willing to extend sacramental hospitality without the strings attached by Catholicism... but this is clearly no longer an option, and it is questionable whether it was the correct decision at the time...

If we are legitimately unable to attend Church, we trust in God to provide for us. We pray at home. We use what is available to us. It is entirely different than choosing not to go to Church and receive Communion. Some can only commute long distance infrequently to commune, and otherwise must pray in the home.
Logged
Seafra
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: British Orthodox hopeful
Posts: 240


It's in the shelter of each other that people live

Mr.Dougherty
WWW
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2012, 01:59:07 PM »

From a Catholic POV, there are no barriers to intercommunion. From an Orthodox POV, however, Orthodox generally cannot (and would have no reason to) partake of Catholic sacraments, nor are Catholics permitted to partake of Orthodox Sacraments (the only exception I know being that Catholics can be communed by an Orthodox priest if they are near death).
I am curious if an orthodox is in an area heavily populated mostly by Catholics and there aren't any Orthodox parishes within hours, would this not be a case where Orthodox could have a reason?

Generally no...

The Catholic POV is that receiving Communion in the RC Church, in addition to everything else it is, is making a public proclamation of obedience to the Pope, and acceptance of all doctrines of Rome. It is seen as technically becoming Catholic (not for Protestants who would need to be Baptised, but for Orthodox who are already Baptised from Rome's point of view, and are merely in schism... Communing is seen as repenting of the schism). So Communing in a Catholic Church is tantamount to publicly rejecting Orthodoxy, and accepting many teachings foreign to Orthodoxy. Early on, many Orthodox were advised to receive Communion in an Anglican Church, which was willing to extend sacramental hospitality without the strings attached by Catholicism... but this is clearly no longer an option, and it is questionable whether it was the correct decision at the time...

If we are legitimately unable to attend Church, we trust in God to provide for us. We pray at home. We use what is available to us. It is entirely different than choosing not to go to Church and receive Communion. Some can only commute long distance infrequently to commune, and otherwise must pray in the home.
Ah I see thanks for that! i was unaware Rome made such consequences...
Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,438


fleem
WWW
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2012, 02:55:57 PM »

According to the last Roman Catholic missal I had, a few years ago, they give Communion to Orthodox who wish to come forward.
Logged

Charlie Rose: "If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?"

Fran Lebowitz: "Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisified."

spcasuncoast.org
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,476


« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2012, 06:38:03 PM »

Generally no...

The Catholic POV is that receiving Communion in the RC Church, in addition to everything else it is, is making a public proclamation of obedience to the Pope, and acceptance of all doctrines of Rome. It is seen as technically becoming Catholic (not for Protestants who would need to be Baptised, but for Orthodox who are already Baptised from Rome's point of view, and are merely in schism... Communing is seen as repenting of the schism). So Communing in a Catholic Church is tantamount to publicly rejecting Orthodoxy, and accepting many teachings foreign to Orthodoxy.

I think you are wrong. I was told many times that we are those who consider Communion as a proclamation of the Creed.
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2012, 06:42:59 PM »

Generally no...

The Catholic POV is that receiving Communion in the RC Church, in addition to everything else it is, is making a public proclamation of obedience to the Pope, and acceptance of all doctrines of Rome. It is seen as technically becoming Catholic (not for Protestants who would need to be Baptised, but for Orthodox who are already Baptised from Rome's point of view, and are merely in schism... Communing is seen as repenting of the schism). So Communing in a Catholic Church is tantamount to publicly rejecting Orthodoxy, and accepting many teachings foreign to Orthodoxy.

I think you are wrong. I was told many times that we are those who consider Communion as a proclamation of the Creed.

there are alot of churches who proclaim the creed though. That doesn't mean we are in communion with them.
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2012, 06:43:42 PM »

From a Catholic POV, there are no barriers to intercommunion. From an Orthodox POV, however, Orthodox generally cannot (and would have no reason to) partake of Catholic sacraments, nor are Catholics permitted to partake of Orthodox Sacraments (the only exception I know being that Catholics can be communed by an Orthodox priest if they are near death).

Can an Orthodox be communed by an RC priest on their death bed if there is no EO one available?
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,228


that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2012, 06:46:33 PM »

I don't know. I guess some would say yes, certainly. Others no. If you don't think they have grace, then there'd be no point. If you think they do, are or unsure, then I suppose it'd be different.  Sorry for not giving a straight answer, I just don't think there is one agreed upon...
Logged
Irish Melkite
Information Mongeror
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite Greek-Catholic
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Posts: 988


WWW
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2012, 07:23:08 PM »

Back in the early years of the 21st century, Catholic parishes began to publish in their Sunday bulletins and such that the Catholic Church allowed the faithful of the other Apostolic Churches - the EO, OO, ACOE, and PNCC - to receive the Mysteries of Communion and Penance if they were properly disposed and requested to do so. (Technically, the provision of Canon Law says something to the effect that it is allowed when those of the other Churches are impeded from approaching the clergy of their own Church or something similar, but it was interpreted rather broadly.)

Shortly thereafter, the bulletin text was reworked to where it now says something to the effect that, while the Catholic Church permits this, it encourages those of the other Apostolic Churches to conform to the instructions of their own hierarchs in deciding whether or not they may do so - and for most Orthodox Christians that would preclude them from doing so.

That the practice is not outright rejected by Rome on the basis of the Orthodox rejection of it is probably because of the fact that there are formal and informal pastoral agreements between Rome and a few OO and other Churches that provide for the faithful of each such to receive pastoral care and, particularly, those Mysteries in the counterpart Churches if their own clergy are not available. Such formal agreements exist between: Rome and the ACOE and the Chaldean Catholic Churches; and, between Rome and the Syriac Orthodox and Catholic Churches. There is also a long-standing informal agreement that applies to the Armenian Catholic and Apostolic Churches. At one time, there was a similar informal agreement between Rome and the Coptic Orthodox and Catholic Churches, but that is no longer the case. Few of these pastoral care provisions are ever invoked these days because most of the Churches, Catholic and otherwise, are now adequately represented in the diaspora (which is where they were most commonly invoked) - that wasn't always true.

As well, in the Middle East, because of intermarriage, persecution, etc, there are instances in which intercommunion occurs among Catholic and Orthodox communities.

Many years,

Neil
Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

- Melkite Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2012, 12:48:57 PM »

From a Catholic POV, there are no barriers to intercommunion. From an Orthodox POV, however, Orthodox generally cannot (and would have no reason to) partake of Catholic sacraments, nor are Catholics permitted to partake of Orthodox Sacraments (the only exception I know being that Catholics can be communed by an Orthodox priest if they are near death).
I am curious if an orthodox is in an area heavily populated mostly by Catholics and there aren't any Orthodox parishes within hours, would this not be a case where Orthodox could have a reason?

Generally no...

The Catholic POV is that receiving Communion in the RC Church, in addition to everything else it is, is making a public proclamation of obedience to the Pope, and acceptance of all doctrines of Rome. It is seen as technically becoming Catholic (not for Protestants who would need to be Baptised, but for Orthodox who are already Baptised from Rome's point of view, and are merely in schism... Communing is seen as repenting of the schism). So Communing in a Catholic Church is tantamount to publicly rejecting Orthodoxy, and accepting many teachings foreign to Orthodoxy. Early on, many Orthodox were advised to receive Communion in an Anglican Church, which was willing to extend sacramental hospitality without the strings attached by Catholicism... but this is clearly no longer an option, and it is questionable whether it was the correct decision at the time...

If we are legitimately unable to attend Church, we trust in God to provide for us. We pray at home. We use what is available to us. It is entirely different than choosing not to go to Church and receive Communion. Some can only commute long distance infrequently to commune, and otherwise must pray in the home.
Ah I see thanks for that! i was unaware Rome made such consequences...

In reality there are no strings attached from the Catholic point of view.  Not sure where that idea comes from but the openness of Catholic sacraments to Orthodox believers is not some attempt to "make" Orthodox believers papists.  It is in recognition that the Orthodox are one holy catholic and apostolic.  It is said that the schism is material and not formal.

Catholics are allowed to receive Orthodox sacraments for the good of the soul, whether that is at death or in a time in life when there is some compelling spiritual need.  It actually happens that way though it is not widely advertised.

M.
Logged

Seafra
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: British Orthodox hopeful
Posts: 240


It's in the shelter of each other that people live

Mr.Dougherty
WWW
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2012, 05:33:08 PM »

From a Catholic POV, there are no barriers to intercommunion. From an Orthodox POV, however, Orthodox generally cannot (and would have no reason to) partake of Catholic sacraments, nor are Catholics permitted to partake of Orthodox Sacraments (the only exception I know being that Catholics can be communed by an Orthodox priest if they are near death).
I am curious if an orthodox is in an area heavily populated mostly by Catholics and there aren't any Orthodox parishes within hours, would this not be a case where Orthodox could have a reason?

Generally no...

The Catholic POV is that receiving Communion in the RC Church, in addition to everything else it is, is making a public proclamation of obedience to the Pope, and acceptance of all doctrines of Rome. It is seen as technically becoming Catholic (not for Protestants who would need to be Baptised, but for Orthodox who are already Baptised from Rome's point of view, and are merely in schism... Communing is seen as repenting of the schism). So Communing in a Catholic Church is tantamount to publicly rejecting Orthodoxy, and accepting many teachings foreign to Orthodoxy. Early on, many Orthodox were advised to receive Communion in an Anglican Church, which was willing to extend sacramental hospitality without the strings attached by Catholicism... but this is clearly no longer an option, and it is questionable whether it was the correct decision at the time...

If we are legitimately unable to attend Church, we trust in God to provide for us. We pray at home. We use what is available to us. It is entirely different than choosing not to go to Church and receive Communion. Some can only commute long distance infrequently to commune, and otherwise must pray in the home.
Ah I see thanks for that! i was unaware Rome made such consequences...

In reality there are no strings attached from the Catholic point of view.  Not sure where that idea comes from but the openness of Catholic sacraments to Orthodox believers is not some attempt to "make" Orthodox believers papists.  It is in recognition that the Orthodox are one holy catholic and apostolic.  It is said that the schism is material and not formal.

Catholics are allowed to receive Orthodox sacraments for the good of the soul, whether that is at death or in a time in life when there is some compelling spiritual need.  It actually happens that way though it is not widely advertised.

M.
So thats kinds conflicting to what everyone else is saying.

From a Catholic POV, there are no barriers to intercommunion. From an Orthodox POV, however, Orthodox generally cannot (and would have no reason to) partake of Catholic sacraments, nor are Catholics permitted to partake of Orthodox Sacraments (the only exception I know being that Catholics can be communed by an Orthodox priest if they are near death).
I am curious if an orthodox is in an area heavily populated mostly by Catholics and there aren't any Orthodox parishes within hours, would this not be a case where Orthodox could have a reason?

Generally no...

The Catholic POV is that receiving Communion in the RC Church, in addition to everything else it is, is making a public proclamation of obedience to the Pope, and acceptance of all doctrines of Rome. It is seen as technically becoming Catholic (not for Protestants who would need to be Baptised, but for Orthodox who are already Baptised from Rome's point of view, and are merely in schism... Communing is seen as repenting of the schism). So Communing in a Catholic Church is tantamount to publicly rejecting Orthodoxy, and accepting many teachings foreign to Orthodoxy. Early on, many Orthodox were advised to receive Communion in an Anglican Church, which was willing to extend sacramental hospitality without the strings attached by Catholicism... but this is clearly no longer an option, and it is questionable whether it was the correct decision at the time...

If we are legitimately unable to attend Church, we trust in God to provide for us. We pray at home. We use what is available to us. It is entirely different than choosing not to go to Church and receive Communion. Some can only commute long distance infrequently to commune, and otherwise must pray in the home.
Ah I see thanks for that! i was unaware Rome made such consequences...
would it not be okay to attend a catholic liturgy and not participate in communion? or is that a taboo?
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2012, 05:46:20 PM »

Who cares?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,238


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2012, 06:13:23 PM »

From a Catholic POV, there are no barriers to intercommunion. From an Orthodox POV, however, Orthodox generally cannot (and would have no reason to) partake of Catholic sacraments, nor are Catholics permitted to partake of Orthodox Sacraments (the only exception I know being that Catholics can be communed by an Orthodox priest if they are near death).
I am curious if an orthodox is in an area heavily populated mostly by Catholics and there aren't any Orthodox parishes within hours, would this not be a case where Orthodox could have a reason?

Generally no...

The Catholic POV is that receiving Communion in the RC Church, in addition to everything else it is, is making a public proclamation of obedience to the Pope, and acceptance of all doctrines of Rome. It is seen as technically becoming Catholic (not for Protestants who would need to be Baptised, but for Orthodox who are already Baptised from Rome's point of view, and are merely in schism... Communing is seen as repenting of the schism). So Communing in a Catholic Church is tantamount to publicly rejecting Orthodoxy, and accepting many teachings foreign to Orthodoxy. Early on, many Orthodox were advised to receive Communion in an Anglican Church, which was willing to extend sacramental hospitality without the strings attached by Catholicism... but this is clearly no longer an option, and it is questionable whether it was the correct decision at the time...

If we are legitimately unable to attend Church, we trust in God to provide for us. We pray at home. We use what is available to us. It is entirely different than choosing not to go to Church and receive Communion. Some can only commute long distance infrequently to commune, and otherwise must pray in the home.
Ah I see thanks for that! i was unaware Rome made such consequences...

In reality there are no strings attached from the Catholic point of view.  Not sure where that idea comes from but the openness of Catholic sacraments to Orthodox believers is not some attempt to "make" Orthodox believers papists.  It is in recognition that the Orthodox are one holy catholic and apostolic.  It is said that the schism is material and not formal.

Catholics are allowed to receive Orthodox sacraments for the good of the soul, whether that is at death or in a time in life when there is some compelling spiritual need.  It actually happens that way though it is not widely advertised.

M.
So thats kinds conflicting to what everyone else is saying.

From a Catholic POV, there are no barriers to intercommunion. From an Orthodox POV, however, Orthodox generally cannot (and would have no reason to) partake of Catholic sacraments, nor are Catholics permitted to partake of Orthodox Sacraments (the only exception I know being that Catholics can be communed by an Orthodox priest if they are near death).
I am curious if an orthodox is in an area heavily populated mostly by Catholics and there aren't any Orthodox parishes within hours, would this not be a case where Orthodox could have a reason?

Generally no...

The Catholic POV is that receiving Communion in the RC Church, in addition to everything else it is, is making a public proclamation of obedience to the Pope, and acceptance of all doctrines of Rome. It is seen as technically becoming Catholic (not for Protestants who would need to be Baptised, but for Orthodox who are already Baptised from Rome's point of view, and are merely in schism... Communing is seen as repenting of the schism). So Communing in a Catholic Church is tantamount to publicly rejecting Orthodoxy, and accepting many teachings foreign to Orthodoxy. Early on, many Orthodox were advised to receive Communion in an Anglican Church, which was willing to extend sacramental hospitality without the strings attached by Catholicism... but this is clearly no longer an option, and it is questionable whether it was the correct decision at the time...

If we are legitimately unable to attend Church, we trust in God to provide for us. We pray at home. We use what is available to us. It is entirely different than choosing not to go to Church and receive Communion. Some can only commute long distance infrequently to commune, and otherwise must pray in the home.
Ah I see thanks for that! i was unaware Rome made such consequences...
would it not be okay to attend a catholic liturgy and not participate in communion? or is that a taboo?

Depends on who you ask.  Some Orthodox hold that Orthodox may not pray with Catholics or other "heretics".  Those who do not hold that we are "heretics" might just say it *is* alright.  From a Catholic point of view, it is perfectly alright.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Seafra
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: British Orthodox hopeful
Posts: 240


It's in the shelter of each other that people live

Mr.Dougherty
WWW
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2012, 06:24:02 PM »

Who cares?
I care. That would be why I ask. I hope to convert son I also plan to move to Ireland in an area that is untouched by orthodoxy and this is something I would like to know about.
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,401


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 06:38:45 PM »

Generally no...

The Catholic POV is that receiving Communion in the RC Church, in addition to everything else it is, is making a public proclamation of obedience to the Pope, and acceptance of all doctrines of Rome. It is seen as technically becoming Catholic (not for Protestants who would need to be Baptised, but for Orthodox who are already Baptised from Rome's point of view, and are merely in schism... Communing is seen as repenting of the schism). So Communing in a Catholic Church is tantamount to publicly rejecting Orthodoxy, and accepting many teachings foreign to Orthodoxy.

I think you are wrong. I was told many times that we are those who consider Communion as a proclamation of the Creed.

That is true. Orthodox Christians should not receive communion in non-Orthodox Churches because then we would be agreeing to their ecclesiology and committing scandal. Thus, we would be committing such a serious sin that we might be penanced for at least one year if we were to confess this in the Orthodox Church.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2012, 07:19:42 PM »

Who cares?
I care. That would be why I ask. I hope to convert son I also plan to move to Ireland in an area that is untouched by orthodoxy and this is something I would like to know about.

While he put it brusquely, ialmisry's point is very real. Presumably you are hoping to convert to British Orthodoxy (the one under the Coptic Orthodox Church I believe?) because you believe it is the true Church. If that is not what you think, then you shouldn't be converting. If that is what you think, then the opinion of any other group (RC, Lutheran, Baptists, Muslims, etc) is largely irrelevent except as seen through the lens of the true Church. If the British Orthodox Church allows its adherents to partake of RC sacraments, then it doesn't matter why the RCC allows it, you would be doing so based on the BOC's reasoning. If the BOC doesn't allow it, then it doesn't matter at all what the RCC allows.

(Have you checked with Fr. Peter or another priest or bishop of the BOC?)
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
Seafra
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: British Orthodox hopeful
Posts: 240


It's in the shelter of each other that people live

Mr.Dougherty
WWW
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2012, 07:24:25 PM »

Who cares?
I care. That would be why I ask. I hope to convert son I also plan to move to Ireland in an area that is untouched by orthodoxy and this is something I would like to know about.

While he put it brusquely, ialmisry's point is very real. Presumably you are hoping to convert to British Orthodoxy (the one under the Coptic Orthodox Church I believe?) because you believe it is the true Church. If that is not what you think, then you shouldn't be converting. If that is what you think, then the opinion of any other group (RC, Lutheran, Baptists, Muslims, etc) is largely irrelevent except as seen through the lens of the true Church. If the British Orthodox Church allows its adherents to partake of RC sacraments, then it doesn't matter why the RCC allows it, you would be doing so based on the BOC's reasoning. If the BOC doesn't allow it, then it doesn't matter at all what the RCC allows.

(Have you checked with Fr. Peter or another priest or bishop of the BOC?)
no i havent because i came to understand that its largely not accepted. The part of attending liturgy w/o communion just came to me today so i figured i would just get opinions. I understand that that at the end of the line its dependent on the Bishop, but its also good to know how and why the church operates the way it does.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 07:24:43 PM by Seafra » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2012, 11:43:56 PM »

Who cares?
I care. That would be why I ask. I hope to convert son I also plan to move to Ireland in an area that is untouched by orthodoxy and this is something I would like to know about.
Then you will be doing the touching.  More important is what Orthodoxy's official stance on the Vatican., not the reverse.

Given your situation, you might, contrary to your OP, be interested in individuals' stances within the Vatican's flock, as that is what you will be dealing with, not an abstract, rarified official pronouncement from the Vatican.

Btw, you do know that there are Orthodox in Ireland?  Since it takes 7 hours to go from one extreme of the island to another, you will not be totally devoid of fellowship.  Where are you going?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2012, 07:52:29 PM »

Who cares?
I care. That would be why I ask. I hope to convert son I also plan to move to Ireland in an area that is untouched by orthodoxy and this is something I would like to know about.

While he put it brusquely, ialmisry's point is very real. Presumably you are hoping to convert to British Orthodoxy (the one under the Coptic Orthodox Church I believe?) because you believe it is the true Church. If that is not what you think, then you shouldn't be converting. If that is what you think, then the opinion of any other group (RC, Lutheran, Baptists, Muslims, etc) is largely irrelevent except as seen through the lens of the true Church. If the British Orthodox Church allows its adherents to partake of RC sacraments, then it doesn't matter why the RCC allows it, you would be doing so based on the BOC's reasoning. If the BOC doesn't allow it, then it doesn't matter at all what the RCC allows.

(Have you checked with Fr. Peter or another priest or bishop of the BOC?)

You got all that from "Who cares?"?  Shocked

Smiley Seriously though, I see your point; but I think you might be confusing Seafra, who asked about the Orthodox p.o.v., with TruthSeeker, who asked about the Roman p.o.v. (about 6 years ago).
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2012, 07:55:30 PM »

From a Catholic POV, there are no barriers to intercommunion. From an Orthodox POV, however, Orthodox generally cannot (and would have no reason to) partake of Catholic sacraments, nor are Catholics permitted to partake of Orthodox Sacraments (the only exception I know being that Catholics can be communed by an Orthodox priest if they are near death).

It isn't even true to say that "From a Catholic POV, there are no barriers to intercommunion."
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2012, 08:42:50 PM »

It isn't even true to say that "From a Catholic POV, there are no barriers to intercommunion."

Between churches, there are barriers, we know the obvious ones and couold dispute over the minor ones that some might find disagreement over whether or not they are worth maintianing schism, but yes there are barriers to intercommunoin between churches.

On a more personal level of the faithful, according to Roman canon law, a RC priest is not allowed to turn away anyone Orthdox from the chalice as long as they are properly prepared, and all RC faithful are allowed to commune in any Orthodox church that will serve them. There is no barrier here from Rome preventing the intercommunion of the faithful.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Moderated
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,444


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2012, 08:51:37 PM »

Quote
and all RC faithful are allowed to commune in any Orthodox church that will serve them

An Orthodox priest who does this will be subject to discipline which could involve defrocking. So, the Roman law which allows this is, at best, meaningless, and, at worst, subversion.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2012, 09:03:21 PM »

Quote
and all RC faithful are allowed to commune in any Orthodox church that will serve them

An Orthodox priest who does this will be subject to discipline which could involve defrocking. So, the Roman law which allows this is, at best, meaningless, and, at worst, subversion.

And then what weasel words do you use to explain away the fact that inter-communion IS practiced and there are not consequences?
Logged

Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,401


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2012, 09:05:13 PM »

Quote
and all RC faithful are allowed to commune in any Orthodox church that will serve them

An Orthodox priest who does this will be subject to discipline which could involve defrocking. So, the Roman law which allows this is, at best, meaningless, and, at worst, subversion.

And then what weasel words do you use to explain away the fact that inter-communion IS practiced and there are not consequences?

false ecumenism
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2012, 09:14:28 PM »

Quote
and all RC faithful are allowed to commune in any Orthodox church that will serve them

An Orthodox priest who does this will be subject to discipline which could involve defrocking. So, the Roman law which allows this is, at best, meaningless, and, at worst, subversion.

And then what weasel words do you use to explain away the fact that inter-communion IS practiced and there are not consequences?

false ecumenism

That's about par, since what we are talking about is communion. 

I guess its the real deal from the chalice for Orthodox believers but if an eastern Catholic communes...not so much...just a bit of 'false ecumenism'...

You are learning fast!!
Logged

LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Moderated
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,444


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2012, 09:23:53 PM »

Quote
and all RC faithful are allowed to commune in any Orthodox church that will serve them

An Orthodox priest who does this will be subject to discipline which could involve defrocking. So, the Roman law which allows this is, at best, meaningless, and, at worst, subversion.

And then what weasel words do you use to explain away the fact that inter-communion IS practiced and there are not consequences?

Proof, please, including statements from official Orthodox sources (synodal or patriarchal) which state that this is acceptable.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2012, 09:30:21 PM »

Quote
and all RC faithful are allowed to commune in any Orthodox church that will serve them

An Orthodox priest who does this will be subject to discipline which could involve defrocking.

I understand, but I want to clarify the position of the Roman Communion because many people on this forum seem to misunderstand it. (And it was the original question on this thread -- for whatever that's worth after 6 years.  Cool)

"If necessity requires it or genuine spiritual advantage suggests it and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is permitted for Catholic Christian faithful, for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers, in whose Churches these sacraments are valid."

Notice there are 4 conditions embedded in that statement:

- "If necessity requires it or genuine spiritual advantage suggests it"
- "provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided"
- "... for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister"
- "... in whose Churches these sacraments are valid"
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 09:32:59 PM by Peter J » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2012, 09:36:29 PM »

Quote
and all RC faithful are allowed to commune in any Orthodox church that will serve them

An Orthodox priest who does this will be subject to discipline which could involve defrocking.

I understand, but I want to clarify the position of the Roman Communion because many people on this forum seem to misunderstand it. (And it was the original question on this thread -- for whatever that's worth after 6 years.  Cool)

"If necessity requires it or genuine spiritual advantage suggests it and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is permitted for Catholic Christian faithful, for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers, in whose Churches these sacraments are valid."

Notice there are 4 conditions embedded in that statement:

- "If necessity requires it or genuine spiritual advantage suggests it"
- "provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided"
- "... for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister"
- "... in whose Churches these sacraments are valid"


I have noted before in this section of OC.net that the phrase "for the salvation of my soul" is a petition that is heard by Orthodox and Catholic bishops alike, when that statement is make with good reason and apparent need.  Not all Orthodox bishops will yield to the need for a Catholic penitent and prospective communicant, but it has happened, it is happening and I expect it will continue happening in more than a few places and over time.

PS: thanks to Peter for his contribution above.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 09:38:01 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Moderated
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,444


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2012, 09:48:40 PM »

Quote
and all RC faithful are allowed to commune in any Orthodox church that will serve them

An Orthodox priest who does this will be subject to discipline which could involve defrocking. So, the Roman law which allows this is, at best, meaningless, and, at worst, subversion.

And then what weasel words do you use to explain away the fact that inter-communion IS practiced and there are not consequences?

Proof, please, including statements from official Orthodox sources (synodal or patriarchal) which state that this is acceptable.

We're waiting, EM. Or are you going to weasel out again?
Logged
Adela
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 820



« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2012, 09:50:06 PM »

This link mentions how the Roman Catholic Church views the Polish National Church, with some details about the Orthodox church in the canon discussion.  It is viewed that both  ordination and apostolic succession are valid.

http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=117963
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 09:51:01 PM by Adela » Logged
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,070



« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2012, 09:52:41 PM »

Quote
and all RC faithful are allowed to commune in any Orthodox church that will serve them

An Orthodox priest who does this will be subject to discipline which could involve defrocking. So, the Roman law which allows this is, at best, meaningless, and, at worst, subversion.

And then what weasel words do you use to explain away the fact that inter-communion IS practiced and there are not consequences?

EM, please provide some proof as to what you are saying here about intercommunion you have 24 hours to comply -username! Section Moderator of the Orthodox Catholic board
Logged

Adela
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 820



« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2012, 10:00:54 PM »

Quote
and all RC faithful are allowed to commune in any Orthodox church that will serve them

An Orthodox priest who does this will be subject to discipline which could involve defrocking. So, the Roman law which allows this is, at best, meaningless, and, at worst, subversion.

And then what weasel words do you use to explain away the fact that inter-communion IS practiced and there are not consequences?
The link I just posted does have the canon law posted for when a Roman CAtholic can receive the Eucharist from a non- Roman Catholic, but "valid" church. I'm on my IPhone and I can't cut and paste right now. But it does say the reasons why a Roman Catholic could intercomune and one is when it is spiritually profitable.
Logged
Adela
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 820



« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2012, 10:03:12 PM »

Quote
and all RC faithful are allowed to commune in any Orthodox church that will serve them

An Orthodox priest who does this will be subject to discipline which could involve defrocking. So, the Roman law which allows this is, at best, meaningless, and, at worst, subversion.

And then what weasel words do you use to explain away the fact that inter-communion IS practiced and there are not consequences?
The link I just posted does have the canon law posted for when a Roman CAtholic can receive the Eucharist from a non- Roman Catholic, but "valid" church. I'm on my IPhone and I can't cut and paste right now. But it does say the reasons why a Roman Catholic could intercomune and one is when it is spiritually profitable.



Oh sorry, just realized you want Orthodox sources to say this is ok.  Yeah, probably hard to find!
Logged
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,070



« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2012, 10:11:59 PM »

From a moderator standpoint what I see is EM trying to substantiate that intercommunion is an on going happening more than just someone receiving at an integral moment in their life.  That is why I am asking her for the source because we are all aware of what the RCC says in it's missals and such. -username! section moderator
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2012, 10:27:45 PM »

Quote
and all RC faithful are allowed to commune in any Orthodox church that will serve them

An Orthodox priest who does this will be subject to discipline which could involve defrocking.

I understand, but I want to clarify the position of the Roman Communion because many people on this forum seem to misunderstand it. (And it was the original question on this thread -- for whatever that's worth after 6 years.  Cool)

"If necessity requires it or genuine spiritual advantage suggests it and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is permitted for Catholic Christian faithful, for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers, in whose Churches these sacraments are valid."

Notice there are 4 conditions embedded in that statement:

- "If necessity requires it or genuine spiritual advantage suggests it"
- "provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided"
- "... for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister"
- "... in whose Churches these sacraments are valid"


I have noted before in this section of OC.net that the phrase "for the salvation of my soul" is a petition that is heard by Orthodox and Catholic bishops alike, when that statement is make with good reason and apparent need.  Not all Orthodox bishops will yield to the need for a Catholic penitent and prospective communicant, but it has happened, it is happening and I expect it will continue happening in more than a few places and over time.

PS: thanks to Peter for his contribution above.

There are Orthodox on this very OC.net who have acknowledged that there are places in the Orthodox world where intercommunion is commonplace.

Also I have personal knowledge of cases where Catholics commune in Orthodoxy for the good of their souls.  I've had a personal interest in this for some time which is how I know that some Orthodox bishops allow and some do not.  Those nearest to me and my circumstances do not.

Beyond this I am not able to provide what you ask for: proof.

I suspect I will be punished accordingly.

M.
Logged

Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2012, 10:32:28 PM »

The link I just posted does have the canon law posted for when a Roman CAtholic can receive the Eucharist from a non- Roman Catholic, but "valid" church. I'm on my IPhone and I can't cut and paste right now. But it does say the reasons why a Roman Catholic could intercomune and one is when it is spiritually profitable.

I think this is the paragraph you are referring to:

Quote
"§2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid."

(emphasis added)
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2012, 10:35:57 PM »

PS: thanks to Peter for his contribution above.

You're welcome.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2012, 01:47:30 AM »

We love orthodoxy
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,238


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2012, 11:15:51 AM »

From a moderator standpoint what I see is EM trying to substantiate that intercommunion is an on going happening more than just someone receiving at an integral moment in their life.  That is why I am asking her for the source because we are all aware of what the RCC says in it's missals and such. -username! section moderator

I don't believe there is any "official" documentary evidence in either the Catholic or Orthodox Churches that Mary can provide as so-called "proof".  Anything that she or others would provide would basically be anecdotal.  For instance....my wife has a plethora of family members in Pennsylvania;  most are Byzantine Catholic;  a few are Roman Catholic;  even fewer still are Orthodox; almost *all* of them not infrequently attend Liturgy in all 3 churches mentioned--ByzCath, RC, and OC--obviously not simultaneously  Cheesy.  The communities they live in and visit and attend Liturgies in are small.  The priests (and bishops) tend to know everyone and everyone tends to know them.  They know who's who and what's what.  They (my wife's family members) commune in all the above churches, with the knowledge and consent of the priests (and bishops) who know they are what they are.  This is, rightly or wrongly, licitly or illicitly, canonically or uncanonically, officially or unofficially, and whether anyone *here* likes it or not----intercommunion.

To quote Wyatt from above: "We [and they] love orthodoxy."
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,070



« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2012, 11:21:38 AM »

From a moderator standpoint what I see is EM trying to substantiate that intercommunion is an on going happening more than just someone receiving at an integral moment in their life.  That is why I am asking her for the source because we are all aware of what the RCC says in it's missals and such. -username! section moderator

I don't believe there is any "official" documentary evidence in either the Catholic or Orthodox Churches that Mary can provide as so-called "proof".  Anything that she or others would provide would basically be anecdotal.  For instance....my wife has a plethora of family members in Pennsylvania;  most are Byzantine Catholic;  a few are Roman Catholic;  even fewer still are Orthodox; almost *all* of them not infrequently attend Liturgy in all 3 churches mentioned--ByzCath, RC, and OC--obviously not simultaneously  Cheesy.  The communities they live in and visit and attend Liturgies in are small.  The priests (and bishops) tend to know everyone and everyone tends to know them.  They know who's who and what's what.  They (my wife's family members) commune in all the above churches, with the knowledge and consent of the priests (and bishops) who know they are what they are.  This is, rightly or wrongly, licitly or illicitly, canonically or uncanonically, officially or unofficially, and whether anyone *here* likes it or not----intercommunion.

To quote Wyatt from above: "We [and they] love orthodoxy."

None of the Orthodox and Greek Catholics (ukies or carpies) inter-commune in my area.  The Greek Catholics might come to a pierogi supper and the occasional to a service they don't commune.
Logged

podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,808


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2012, 11:24:35 AM »

From a moderator standpoint what I see is EM trying to substantiate that intercommunion is an on going happening more than just someone receiving at an integral moment in their life.  That is why I am asking her for the source because we are all aware of what the RCC says in it's missals and such. -username! section moderator

I don't believe there is any "official" documentary evidence in either the Catholic or Orthodox Churches that Mary can provide as so-called "proof".  Anything that she or others would provide would basically be anecdotal.  For instance....my wife has a plethora of family members in Pennsylvania;  most are Byzantine Catholic;  a few are Roman Catholic;  even fewer still are Orthodox; almost *all* of them not infrequently attend Liturgy in all 3 churches mentioned--ByzCath, RC, and OC--obviously not simultaneously  Cheesy.  The communities they live in and visit and attend Liturgies in are small.  The priests (and bishops) tend to know everyone and everyone tends to know them.  They know who's who and what's what.  They (my wife's family members) commune in all the above churches, with the knowledge and consent of the priests (and bishops) who know they are what they are.  This is, rightly or wrongly, licitly or illicitly, canonically or uncanonically, officially or unofficially, and whether anyone *here* likes it or not----intercommunion.

To quote Wyatt from above: "We [and they] love orthodoxy."

None of the Orthodox and Greek Catholics (ukies or carpies) inter-commune in my area.  The Greek Catholics might come to a pierogi supper and the occasional to a service they don't commune.


While we don't cast the evil eye at each other, or cross the street in front of each other's churches and we even attend things like choral concerts and cultural things, support each others picnics etc.... I am absolutely unaware of ANY ongoing intercommunion in my area or any other area where there are ACROD parishes. Thanks to the diligent efforts and prayers of our departed hierarchs, we have learned to first live with each other and secondly to better understand each other.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 11:27:53 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.174 seconds with 73 queries.