Author Topic: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?  (Read 859 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Eamonomae

  • The Publican who hathn’t repented
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 897
  • Saint Thomas the Apostle, pray for me a sinner!
  • Faith: Truth seeker
  • Jurisdiction: Schism
How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« on: March 15, 2019, 12:59:16 AM »
Coming from a similar place to the WWE match MikeforJesus has been wrestling in his dozens of posts, this one doctrine for Orthodoxy (whether Eastern or Oriental) has been something that periodically bothers me from time to time and makes me doubt Orthodoxy in its entirety - and that’s the EENS doctrine - Outside the Church there is No Salvation.

Let’s assume Eastern Orthodoxy is True.

So, there are an estimated 200 - 300 million Orthodox Christians in the world.
Let’s for safety measure estimate 350 million.

And we know not all Orthodox Christians will get to heaven. Based on the narrow way quote and what many Saints have written on the subject, it won’t be a majority of people.

So let’s say that 49% get to Heaven, 51% don’t for safety again.

So we have 171,500,000 of today’s population saved.

Now, there are an estimated 7.6 billion people in 2018.

So, out of all the people saved, that’s 2% of the world’s population. The 98% of humanity does not get saved. That 98% will end up in Hell.

Plus, it’s not as if that 98% has definitively learned about Orthodoxy and rejected it - there are at least 10,000 Christian denominations, Islam, Judaism, etc., as well as Scientific evidence that shows the Book of Genesis to not be literal, with nobody being able to successfully challenge that view, and parts of the world that still haven’t heard about Christ or are even able to learn about Christ in an Orthodox manner (Indigineous, Uncontacted Tribes in Australia, Africa, South America, etc.)

Now, I’ve heard of people trying to come up with unprovable justifications or just dismissing the question out of ignorance like “we don’t know who will be saved,” or “perhaps people can join the Church after death,” or “God wants man to be saved,” etc.

But these are hypotheticals and don’t guarantee anything, that have little basis in Tradition.

So, tell me please - how do all of these facts allow Orthodoxy to be correct, or even suggest there is a Theistic God?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 01:01:16 AM by Eamonomae »
"I haven't any right to criticise books, and I don't do it except when I hate them. I often want to criticise Jane Austen, but her books madden me so that I can't conceal my frenzy from the reader; and therefore I have to stop every time I begin. Everytime I read 'Pride and Prejudice' I want to dig her up and beat her over the skull with her own shin-bone."
- Mark Twain, Letter to Joseph Twichell, 13 September 1898

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,089
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2019, 01:03:25 AM »
You think "God wants man to be saved" has little basis in Tradition?  ???
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline isxodnik

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 492
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2019, 01:15:43 AM »
as well as Scientific evidence that shows the Book of Genesis to not be literal, with nobody being able to successfully challenge that view,
Scientists will tell you anything ))

The Church is created by God and leads to Him. Does God do anything empty, unnecessary? Obviously not. It is also obvious that since God is one, there can only be one teaching about Him. Again, the Church Is the Body of Christ, one Body. And indeed - God created one Church, divisions appeared after. Why did God create It? To save people. So, who are outside the Church - and the only - one outside of rescue, alas.
"Небезопасно и касаться богословия тому, кто имеет какую-нибудь страсть." прп. Иоанн Лествичник

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,089
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2019, 02:28:25 AM »
I think the first question to ask here is, "What SHOULD God (assuming He exists) be doing differently?" Do you propose an alternative like that of Richard Carrier, have everybody followed around by a little blue fairy who whispers the Gospel into their ear 24/7? Have it written on the Moon for all to see? Questions of disrupting free will or not aside, would that kind of absolute knowledge of God really cause more love for Him or for one another? How many people would just openly rebel against the God who did things like that (maybe take it as a challenge to try and overthrow Him like this was some kind of anime)? It takes a certain 21st century technocratic arrogance to think that with more knowledge, people would just automatically solve all their own problems. I think Luke 16:29 applies.

In the case of the unevangelized, I think you're reading an intellectualism and voluntarism into things potentially without warrant. God judges first and foremost how we loved, not our understanding of advanced theology. The unevangelized (much like children and the mentally disabled, I imagine) will be judged based on what they did with the light that God did give them, the faith-working-through-love that they had in Him as far as they could understand (Luke 12:48, Romans 1-2). Who can say at what point somebody has "done enough" to be considered to have definitively accepted God or rejected Him? It's hard to even pin that down when it comes to Orthodox believers. Likewise, who can say what happens in the nanoseconds before each of us dies, how God might come to us right before the end?

I agree that some of this is hypothetical, but these hypotheticals were made because the "only 2% of all humanity will be saved" logic doesn't quite jibe with what we know of God's love. So, either the whole thing is self-contradictory gibberish or there must be something going on under the surface that we don't quite fathom.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Online WPM

  • Citizenii Populii
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,971
  • I am the Root of Existence
  • Faith: Lutheran Christian.
  • Jurisdiction: United States
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2019, 03:12:37 AM »
I don't know.
<><

Offline Eamonomae

  • The Publican who hathn’t repented
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 897
  • Saint Thomas the Apostle, pray for me a sinner!
  • Faith: Truth seeker
  • Jurisdiction: Schism
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2019, 09:00:49 AM »
In 2000 years, if I were God, I would allow Orthodoxy to be more significant culturally and allow more nations to be converted, and not allow the Protestant Reformation to happen, such that Orthodoxy was at least more accessible. I wouldn’t allow Eutyches to be born or allow Saint Augustine or Charlemagne to be born such that more than 1 billion people wouldn’t be outside Orthodoxy for almost 1000 years. I would allow Muhammad’s parents commit him to a Psychiatric ward, such that Africa and the Middle East remains Orthodox.

Heck, I wouldn’t allow the Enlightenment to happen.

Know, I know God is omniscient and would make more wise decisions, and we don’t know the future or when Christ is returning, so the Church can still spread maybe in 10,000 years.

But as of now, it seems like Orthodoxy is trapped due to all of these events which discourage people intellectually from investigating Orthodoxy or allow successful Evangelism.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 09:13:01 AM by Eamonomae »
"I haven't any right to criticise books, and I don't do it except when I hate them. I often want to criticise Jane Austen, but her books madden me so that I can't conceal my frenzy from the reader; and therefore I have to stop every time I begin. Everytime I read 'Pride and Prejudice' I want to dig her up and beat her over the skull with her own shin-bone."
- Mark Twain, Letter to Joseph Twichell, 13 September 1898

Online WPM

  • Citizenii Populii
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,971
  • I am the Root of Existence
  • Faith: Lutheran Christian.
  • Jurisdiction: United States
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2019, 09:03:28 AM »
I think the first question to ask here is, "What SHOULD God (assuming He exists) be doing differently?" Do you propose an alternative like that of Richard Carrier, have everybody followed around by a little blue fairy who whispers the Gospel into their ear 24/7? Have it written on the Moon for all to see? Questions of disrupting free will or not aside, would that kind of absolute knowledge of God really cause more love for Him or for one another? How many people would just openly rebel against the God who did things like that (maybe take it as a challenge to try and overthrow Him like this was some kind of anime)? It takes a certain 21st century technocratic arrogance to think that with more knowledge, people would just automatically solve all their own problems. I think Luke 16:29 applies.

In the case of the unevangelized, I think you're reading an intellectualism and voluntarism into things potentially without warrant. God judges first and foremost how we loved, not our understanding of advanced theology. The unevangelized (much like children and the mentally disabled, I imagine) will be judged based on what they did with the light that God did give them, the faith-working-through-love that they had in Him as far as they could understand (Luke 12:48, Romans 1-2). Who can say at what point somebody has "done enough" to be considered to have definitively accepted God or rejected Him? It's hard to even pin that down when it comes to Orthodox believers. Likewise, who can say what happens in the nanoseconds before each of us dies, how God might come to us right before the end?

I agree that some of this is hypothetical, but these hypotheticals were made because the "only 2% of all humanity will be saved" logic doesn't quite jibe with what we know of God's love. So, either the whole thing is self-contradictory gibberish or there must be something going on under the surface that we don't quite fathom.

The thing is ~ Orthodoxy takes man and makes him god . . .
<><

Offline Eamonomae

  • The Publican who hathn’t repented
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 897
  • Saint Thomas the Apostle, pray for me a sinner!
  • Faith: Truth seeker
  • Jurisdiction: Schism
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2019, 09:05:15 AM »
That’s a very offensive thing to say
"I haven't any right to criticise books, and I don't do it except when I hate them. I often want to criticise Jane Austen, but her books madden me so that I can't conceal my frenzy from the reader; and therefore I have to stop every time I begin. Everytime I read 'Pride and Prejudice' I want to dig her up and beat her over the skull with her own shin-bone."
- Mark Twain, Letter to Joseph Twichell, 13 September 1898

Offline Eamonomae

  • The Publican who hathn’t repented
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 897
  • Saint Thomas the Apostle, pray for me a sinner!
  • Faith: Truth seeker
  • Jurisdiction: Schism
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2019, 09:15:17 AM »
But anyways, it seems that Roman Catholicism is collapsing - or at least has embraced clear moral contradiction such that it will inevitably collapse.

But still, the heterodox and apostates are thriving, while Orthodoxy isn’t. And with the way the world is going - overpopulation, nuclear weapons, resource consumption - it seems like the solution is gonna be a hard one if there is a solution. Maybe a nuclear war to wipe out a lot of the population.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 09:18:24 AM by Eamonomae »
"I haven't any right to criticise books, and I don't do it except when I hate them. I often want to criticise Jane Austen, but her books madden me so that I can't conceal my frenzy from the reader; and therefore I have to stop every time I begin. Everytime I read 'Pride and Prejudice' I want to dig her up and beat her over the skull with her own shin-bone."
- Mark Twain, Letter to Joseph Twichell, 13 September 1898

Offline xariskai

  • юродивый/yurodivy
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,614
  • יהוה עזי ומגני
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2019, 11:20:00 AM »
Let’s assume Eastern Orthodoxy is True.
...98% of humanity does not get saved. That 98% will end up in Hell.
The Orthodox Church doesn't teach that.

It is also understood "We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not" (Timothy Ware/Metropolitan Bishop Kallistos, The Orthodox Church, p. 308).

No human being knows even approximately what portion of mankind might embrace hell eternally.
Whether someone's rationalizing estimates ranges toward 98% or even some fraction of 1% it is still nothing but human rationalizing.
To say anything more concerning what God has never spoken is to expose our own hubris, not Orthodoxy's.

"Now, I’ve heard of people trying to come up with unprovable justifications or just dismissing the question out of ignorance like “we don’t know who will be saved..
Are you joking? This only makes sense if one can "prove" and "know" how many, or roughly how many, will ultimately embrace hell, which your post has rationalized and asserted but hardly has itself proven.

You are also using "saved" in a particular manner, which though on the one hand is legitimate in a proper context (certainly in that sense of the fullness of salvation which Orthodox speak of as Theosis) on the other hand, as Fr. John Romanidies points, out, (and to be fair, not uncommonly) ignores another Pauline sense, e.g.

1 Tim 4:10  "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

"They were never capable of understanding that God loves equally both those who are going to hell and those who are going to heaven. God loves even the Devil as much as He loves the saint. 'God is the savior of all humans, indeed of the faithful' (1 Tim. 4:10). In other words hell is a form of salvation although the lowest form of it. God loves the Devil and his collaborators but destroys their work by allowing them to remain inoperative in their final 'actus purus happiness...' one either chooses cure or refuses cure. Christ is the Doctor who cures all His patients to that degree of cure they accept, even that of hell." -"5 Keys To The Bible," Fr. John Romanides

It is you rather than those interlocutors you characterize as lacking "proof" whose "proof" leaves something to be desired.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 11:30:18 AM by xariskai »

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,089
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2019, 03:23:08 PM »
In 2000 years, if I were God, I would allow Orthodoxy to be more significant culturally and allow more nations to be converted, and not allow the Protestant Reformation to happen, such that Orthodoxy was at least more accessible. I wouldn’t allow Eutyches to be born or allow Saint Augustine or Charlemagne to be born such that more than 1 billion people wouldn’t be outside Orthodoxy for almost 1000 years. I would allow Muhammad’s parents commit him to a Psychiatric ward, such that Africa and the Middle East remains Orthodox.

Heck, I wouldn’t allow the Enlightenment to happen.

Know, I know God is omniscient and would make more wise decisions, and we don’t know the future or when Christ is returning, so the Church can still spread maybe in 10,000 years.

But as of now, it seems like Orthodoxy is trapped due to all of these events which discourage people intellectually from investigating Orthodoxy or allow successful Evangelism.

First of all, I don't think that God is in the business of preventing the birth of somebody who would otherwise be. That sounds like the flip-side of annihlationism (see the quote from Fr. Romanides posted above).

Second, a lot of the other things you allude to don't sound like they'd be possible without violating the free will of the actors involved (or at least without throwing natural disasters and plagues around a lot more, which would have vast consequences of their own).
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline isxodnik

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 492
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2019, 06:22:15 PM »
In other words hell is a form of salvation although the lowest form of it.
... And under avatar written: "Orthodox.".. What did not see in the world.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 06:22:56 PM by isxodnik »
"Небезопасно и касаться богословия тому, кто имеет какую-нибудь страсть." прп. Иоанн Лествичник

Offline Rubricnigel

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,515
  • Vini vidi vici
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Midwest
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2019, 06:55:33 PM »
Coming from a similar place to the WWE match MikeforJesus has been wrestling in his dozens of posts, this one doctrine for Orthodoxy (whether Eastern or Oriental) has been something that periodically bothers me from time to time and makes me doubt Orthodoxy in its entirety - and that’s the EENS doctrine - Outside the Church there is No Salvation.

Let’s assume Eastern Orthodoxy is True.

So, there are an estimated 200 - 300 million Orthodox Christians in the world.
Let’s for safety measure estimate 350 million.

And we know not all Orthodox Christians will get to heaven. Based on the narrow way quote and what many Saints have written on the subject, it won’t be a majority of people.

So let’s say that 49% get to Heaven, 51% don’t for safety again.

So we have 171,500,000 of today’s population saved.

Now, there are an estimated 7.6 billion people in 2018.

So, out of all the people saved, that’s 2% of the world’s population. The 98% of humanity does not get saved. That 98% will end up in Hell.

Plus, it’s not as if that 98% has definitively learned about Orthodoxy and rejected it - there are at least 10,000 Christian denominations, Islam, Judaism, etc., as well as Scientific evidence that shows the Book of Genesis to not be literal, with nobody being able to successfully challenge that view, and parts of the world that still haven’t heard about Christ or are even able to learn about Christ in an Orthodox manner (Indigineous, Uncontacted Tribes in Australia, Africa, South America, etc.)

Now, I’ve heard of people trying to come up with unprovable justifications or just dismissing the question out of ignorance like “we don’t know who will be saved,” or “perhaps people can join the Church after death,” or “God wants man to be saved,” etc.

But these are hypotheticals and don’t guarantee anything, that have little basis in Tradition.

So, tell me please - how do all of these facts allow Orthodoxy to be correct, or even suggest there is a Theistic God?

God loves man, and we dont know alot about the divine mystery because God chose not to tell us.

The publican and the pharisee is a good story about how one man follows all the laws, yet still isnt perfect.

When you say, "
Now, I’ve heard of people trying to come up with unprovable justifications or just dismissing the question out of ignorance like “we don’t know who will be saved,” or “perhaps people can join the Church after death,” or “God wants man to be saved,” etc.", it seems as though youwant a definitive answer, to which NO MAN CAN ANSWER.

Imo the number you have is to high, If sins are sins, and there are no sin that is greater than another.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,089
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2019, 07:32:47 PM »
In other words hell is a form of salvation although the lowest form of it.
... And under avatar written: "Orthodox.".. What did not see in the world.

It's a totally fair extrapolation from teachers like Kalomiros, Meyendorff, et al.

If we are completely dependent on God for our continued existence, then not being annihilated after death is a form of salvation.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 07:35:11 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,046
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2019, 07:34:57 PM »
That’s a very offensive thing to say

“For He was made man that we might be made God.” St Athanasius
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline isxodnik

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 492
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2019, 07:40:34 PM »
It's a totally fair extrapolation from teachers like Kalomiros, Meyendorff, et al.

If we are completely dependent on God for our continued existence, then not being annihilated after death is a form of salvation.
I don't know about you, but we understand salvation as a connection with God. While the hell - in the first place the abandonment of God )
"Небезопасно и касаться богословия тому, кто имеет какую-нибудь страсть." прп. Иоанн Лествичник

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,089
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2019, 08:42:39 PM »
It's a totally fair extrapolation from teachers like Kalomiros, Meyendorff, et al.

If we are completely dependent on God for our continued existence, then not being annihilated after death is a form of salvation.
I don't know about you, but we understand salvation as a connection with God. While the hell - in the first place the abandonment of God )

Quote
Where can I go to escape Your Spirit? Where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend to the heavens, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, You are there.

There's nowhere we can that He doesn't still love us, because His love is the very foundation of our existence. This is still true even if we don't love Him back.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 08:42:49 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline isxodnik

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 492
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2019, 08:46:23 PM »
Do you really not understand, or just want to win the dispute?
"Небезопасно и касаться богословия тому, кто имеет какую-нибудь страсть." прп. Иоанн Лествичник

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,089
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2019, 08:48:27 PM »
Neither. I just happen to be right. Your logic just leads to annihlationism, which is not a view without its charms, but doesn't seem to be true from an Orthodox POV.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline isxodnik

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 492
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2019, 08:58:50 PM »
I just happen to be right.

Chapaev returns from a business trip to England. All dressed to the nines, in the limo, hands rings set with diamonds. Full trunk of money. Porters take out a bunch of suitcases.
Petka asks him in surprise:
- Vasily Ivanovich, how did you get all this?
- Oh, Petya, in the cards won.
- How?
- I'm going to the club. There all sit, drink, play cards. Looked closely - play at 21! I sat down at a table and took the cards. I'm 18. And my rival-the Englishman says - 20. I said, "Show me!" And he said to me,"we gentlemen take our word for it." That's where my luck came in!..
"Небезопасно и касаться богословия тому, кто имеет какую-нибудь страсть." прп. Иоанн Лествичник

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,089
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2019, 09:02:54 PM »
Oh goody, another one who thinks he's a novelist...
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline isxodnik

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 492
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2019, 09:08:12 PM »
Another one, who thinks it's not enough to just declare yourself right, to be right.
"Небезопасно и касаться богословия тому, кто имеет какую-нибудь страсть." прп. Иоанн Лествичник

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,089
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2019, 09:37:13 PM »
Another one, who thinks it's not enough to just declare yourself right, to be right.

I didn't just "declare" it though. How can we be separated from God in an absolute sense when He is the foundation of our being itself? Do unbelievers cease to exist after the final judgement?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline isxodnik

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 492
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2019, 09:47:23 PM »
To be honest, I don't know the subject you're talking about. It's a mystery of God to me. That abandonment of God, of which I speak, you can see every day: in an angry man, in an envious one, in a fornicator... And I`m not just say, and retell the teachings of the Church, to the best of their abilities.

I must ask you: what faith are you?
"Небезопасно и касаться богословия тому, кто имеет какую-нибудь страсть." прп. Иоанн Лествичник

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,089
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2019, 10:05:45 PM »
To be honest, I don't know the subject you're talking about. It's a mystery of God to me. That abandonment of God, of which I speak, you can see every day: in an angry man, in an envious one, in a fornicator... And I`m not just say, and retell the teachings of the Church, to the best of their abilities.

I must ask you: what faith are you?

The grace of God is all around us, "in Him we live and move and have our being." The angry man, jealous man, etc. would cease to exist if God didn't still love them and work on them. Hell will be same way, even though nobody will respond. That's what it means to say that Hell is a form of salvation.

I'm somewhere in between Evangelical and Orthodox right now. I'll likely convert eventually, I'm just still working through some things. My current designation is what feels most honest.

Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline isxodnik

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 492
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2019, 11:22:38 PM »
Don't you think it's strange - to ponder the conversion to Orthodoxy, and to insist on previously acquired non-Orthodox views?
"Небезопасно и касаться богословия тому, кто имеет какую-нибудь страсть." прп. Иоанн Лествичник

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,089
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2019, 12:04:18 AM »
Don't you think it's strange - to ponder the conversion to Orthodoxy, and to insist on previously acquired non-Orthodox views?

Depends on how Orthodox the view is. What I've said above seems to jibe pretty well with what I've seen from other Orthodox sources. It's actually your alternative that reads as more "Protestant" to my eyes.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline isxodnik

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 492
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROC
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2019, 12:25:10 AM »
Salvation in hell - Orthodox teaching?!

http://www.pravenc.ru/text/63424.html
St. Basil the Great: Those who have done evil will be resurrected for desecration and shame in order to see in themselves the abomination and the imprint of the sins they have committed. And perhaps more terrible than darkness and eternal fire is the shame with which sinners will be immortalized, constantly having before their eyes the traces of sin made in the flesh, like some indelible paint, forever remaining in the memory of their souls... The cruelest of all torments, eternal dishonor and eternal shame.

St. John Chrysostom: It is Better to be subjected to countless lightning strikes than to see how the meek face of the Lord turns away from us and his clear eye does not want to look at us.
"Небезопасно и касаться богословия тому, кто имеет какую-нибудь страсть." прп. Иоанн Лествичник

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,089
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2019, 03:10:41 PM »
I didn't say "salvation in Hell," I said "Hell is a form of salvation." There's a difference. It doesn't mean the torments ever have to stop (though there's arguably also a few examples from tradition of this happening, St. Seraphim of Sarov comes to mind).
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Eamonomae

  • The Publican who hathn’t repented
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 897
  • Saint Thomas the Apostle, pray for me a sinner!
  • Faith: Truth seeker
  • Jurisdiction: Schism
Re: How can EENS possibly be from Omnibenevolence?
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2019, 03:24:55 PM »
I didn't say "salvation in Hell," I said "Hell is a form of salvation." There's a difference. It doesn't mean the torments ever have to stop (though there's arguably also a few examples from tradition of this happening, St. Seraphim of Sarov comes to mind).

And Saint Benedict according to Saint Gregory the Dialogist...
"I haven't any right to criticise books, and I don't do it except when I hate them. I often want to criticise Jane Austen, but her books madden me so that I can't conceal my frenzy from the reader; and therefore I have to stop every time I begin. Everytime I read 'Pride and Prejudice' I want to dig her up and beat her over the skull with her own shin-bone."
- Mark Twain, Letter to Joseph Twichell, 13 September 1898