Author Topic: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy  (Read 3611 times)

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Offline isxodnik

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2019, 10:00:01 PM »
Why should anyone care what Volnutt said? He's just pixels on my monitor. With the same success it is possible to listen to pastafariantsev.
"А чего мне бояться? Не в лесу живём, и не в Америке"

Offline isxodnik

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2019, 10:22:21 PM »
But wait a minute! Valsamon was "a perfect law-adept/wizard" ( https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/Lopuhin/pravoslavnaja-bogoslovskaja-entsiklopedija-ili-bogoslovskij-entsiklopedicheskij-slovar-tom-tretij-vaal-vjacheslav/39 ), and Volnutt teaches that "the world will can be refined and restored".
I shouldn't have compared them.
"А чего мне бояться? Не в лесу живём, и не в Америке"

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2019, 11:31:42 PM »

Old Believers who sought canonical refuge under other Patriarchates, for example, the Lipovans under the Romanian Orthodox Church and the Old Ritualists under the EP, who continued using all five divine liturgies until persecution forced them to flee Turkey and their priceless Sluzhbenik containing the Liturgies of St. James, St. Mark and St. Peter was confiscated by Turkish customs.


I am confused: do you mean that the Turkish customs officials confiscated all existing copies of these liturgies?  And as a result the great liturgical scholar Ivan Alekseivich Gardner (1898-1984) had to translated his own version into Church Slavonic for use by the ROCOR?

Is this Gardner's translation celebrated in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdI58Sv4fGY

No, the Turks confiscated the Liturgikon, or Sluzhbenik, the Priest’s Service Book (also sometimes called a Euchologion, but in Russian praxis Euchologions usually refer to the Trebnik, or Book of Needs, which contains services like baptisms, funerals, and various blessings).  This particular manuscript contained Church Slavonic texts of the Divine Liturgies of St. James, St. Mark and St. Peter, and was at the time the only known source for the Divine Liturgy of St. Peter.  However, there are numerous manuscripts and Liturikons of the Divine Liturgy of St. James and St. Mark; indeed the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark is the oldest extant liturgy, older even than the liturgy contained in the Apostolic Tradition of St. Hippolytus; the oldest manuscript of the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark is the Strasbourg Papyrus, which dates from the second century.   There are also numerous versions of the Divine Liturgy of St. James in its Eastern Orthodox recension other than the Gardner text.

One of the best texts of the St. James liturgy is the recent text published by Archimandrite Ephrem Lash, Memory Eternal, who reposed two years ago; the text is in contemporary language.  His website is down, but still available on the Internet Archive; I am looking in to see if his monastery has the copyrights on his liturgical work or if it lapsed into the public domain, and I am going to seek to publish it on a new liturgical resources site I am setting up.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline isxodnik

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2019, 11:50:56 PM »
the oldest manuscript of the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark is the Strasbourg Papyrus, which dates from the second century.

You can link to? Because I have other information.
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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2019, 01:37:20 AM »
First, this is not the first time you have mentioned the "annexation of Georgia by Russia". I'm starting to think you're Russophobic.


I frequently attend a ROCOR parish, and watch the Victory Day parade in Moscow, St. Petersburg and Minsk, Belarus every year on YouTube.  Russian and Ukrainian food is my favorite, and Russian and Ukrainian church music, classical music and military music is my favorite.  I wept when Lt. General Valery Khalilov died in a tragic plane crash of a Tu-154 along with many of the talented musicians of the Alexandrov Ensemble; Khalilov, memory eternal, is my favorite contemporary composer of military music.   I also have a vast collection of music concucted by Captain Alexei Karabanov, commander of the St. Petersburg Admiralty Navy Band.  I love Russian tramways, trolleybusses, and the beautiful stations on the metros of Moscow, St. Petersburg and other cities, and the Russian railway system.  I used to own a Soviet era railway conductor’s cap (in addition to a Finnish conductor’s cap and an American “pillbox” cap), when I was actively volunteering on a tourist railway.  And my favorite aircraft of all time is tne Tupolev Tu-114, the largest and fastest turboprop airliner, with contra-rotating propellers (its wings, engines and tailplane are from the Tu-95, but it features a much enlarged fuselage about the same width, maybe slightly wider, than a Boeing 707).  I was also extremely sad when the Space Shuttle Buran was destroyed in a hangar collapse, and I really wish the Buran space shuttles had gone into service.  Finally, from a religious perspective, I consider the Russian Orthodox saints of the 19th century, who worked in a condition of ridiculous state bureaucracy, to be the most important Orthodox saints of that century.  St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Ignatius Brianchaninov and St. John of Kronstadt were of extreme importance.  St. Seraphim was also probably an Edinovertsy, given his use of a Lestovka ( he later developed a prayer rule using a special Lestovka which the convent in Sarov now sells).  So there is no basis for considering me Russophobic; I am probably more of a Russophile than any other member of the forum.  I might be more Russophile than you!

However, it is a fact that in the 18th century, faced with a Turkish invasion they could not withstand, Georgia’s monarch abdicated and the country agreed to be annexed by Russia.  This in general brought benefits to both countries.  However, at the time, the Russian Orthodox Church was without a Patriarch or a proper Holy Synod, rather being run by a “Holy Synod” consisting of three or four bishops and a career secular bureaucrat called the Procurator, appointed by the Czar.  This system was implemented by Peter the Great following the disaster of the Nikonian reforms, which Czar Peter nonetheless enforced with extreme brutality.  When Russia annexed Georgia, the incompetent administration of the Russian church painted over Georgian icons, attempted to conduct the services in Church Slavonic, and basically presided over the loss of a large amount of Georgian Orthodox heritage.

Many of the great saints of 19th century Russia were opposed to the Holy Synod and worked around it.  For example, St. John of Kronstadt was upset by the infrequency of confession and communion, so he set up his parish in Kronstadt specifically to facilitate mass confession and mass communion.  St. Tikhon of Moscow’s election in 1917 as the first Moscow Patriarch since the 17th century was a huge improvement, but then the Bolsheviks came to power and St. Tikhon died tragically in a Russian prison.  But his instructions led to the creation of ROCOR, which in my opinion was the most dynamic and successful Orthodox Church on an international basis in the 20th century, producing many great saints, like St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco.  And the defeat of the evil Living Church movement in Russia in the 1930s and the spectacular success of the MP following the end of the Soviet Union are miraculous, and the reunion between ROCOR and the MP was a glorious moment.

Also in the 20th centurt the Georgian Orthodox Church regained its autocephaly and has restored much of the heritage squandered by the incompetent 18th century Holy Synod.

If you want to talk about Russophobia, the Imperial Court and the “Holy Synod” in the 18th century are prime examples.  Peter the Great and his successors effectively controlled the Holy Synod through the Procurator they appointed, who could veto decisions made by the handful of bishops.  Peter the Great implemented a beard tax, penalizing Russian men at Court or in St. Petersburg who followed the traditional pre-Nikonian practice of growing a beard and long hair.  And there is some reason to believe that Peter the Great and some of his successors, for political and other reasons, desired the Russian Orthodox Church to become Protestant, specifically Lutheran (probably due to the politics in the Baltic region, where Lutheranism was the majority religion).  And even the Russian language was deprecated among the upper class; the preferred language at the Imperial Court and among the good and the great of both Moscow and St. Petersburg was French.

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Georgia tearfully begged Russia to accept it to itself, for protection against extermination (Persians or Turks, I do not remember). She swore an oath of allegiance. When the danger has passed, appeared ungrateful pigs-separatists, roughly as now on Ukraine. It is possible, probably, at desire to find cases of bad actions of Russia in Georgia, but to speak about annexation - means impudently to slander.


Annexation is a politically neutral term.  It is a fact that the government of Georgia and control of the Church of Georgia were superceded.  But lets be realistic; at the time this happened, Russia had some of the worst Czars it ever had, including Empress Catharine, who was horrible, and the Russian Orthodox Church lacked a Patriarch and the Procurator, appointed by the Czar, actually wielded more power than any Orthodox Patriarch, Catholicos, Metropolitan or Archbishop ever posessed, despite being a layman and a bureaucrat.  Some people call the period in between Patriarch Nikon and Patriarch Tikhon the “Babylonian Captivity of the Russian Church,” and this is a fair assesment.  What kept the Russian church alive, and the Russian people alive, was the heroic asceticism of saints like Seraphim of Sarov, Ignatius Brianchaninov, and other holy monastic starets, who kept the flame burning.

I would also argue that Georgia should not have had to tearfully beg Russia for military aid; the Czars could have formed an alliance with Georgia and fought off the Turks without removing the Georgian government or seeking to integrate the Georgian Church into the Russian.  And indeed, starting in the 19th century, Russia frequently did follow such a pattern of behavior internationally.  But this point runs the risk of taking us into politics; if you want to discuss the politics of Russia outside of the context of this liturgical discussion, you can register for the Private Forums and we can talk about it there.

One more point should be made - most of the heretical schisms from the Russian Orthodox Church happened in the late 17th and early 18th century, and all of them happened under the period of the Czarist Procurator, with the exception of the Living Church movement ( which was less of a schism per se and more of an attempted ecclesiastical coup by modernist clergy who were briefly supported by Stalin, until he realized he would need the support of the Church in the event of war with Germany and the degree to which the living church was despised by the laity).  Among the heretical schisms which popped up under what I consider the anti-Russian reign of the 18th century Czars and the Procurator of the Holy Synod, when Old Believers were being burned at the stake for crossing themselves in the traditional manner, you have the Priestless Old Believers, who went overboard and denied the existence of any legitimate bishops or any valid sacraments other than baptism, many of whom reject marriage, the Hole Worshippers, who did away with icons and instead cut a cross shaped hole in the eastern wall of their church building, the Molokans, who were Judaisers very similiar to the Seventh Day Adventists, the Skoptsky or mutilators, the Immolators, and the Doukhobors, who were basically Unitarian Universalists, who later migrated en masse to Canada, financed by Leo Tolstoy, who admired their religion; in Canada they became notorious for protesting government policy by marching naked through the city streets, and a radical group of Doukhobors engaged in numerous acts of arson.

In contrast, as far as we know, there were no heretical schisms in the Russian Orthodox Church between the Baptism of the Rus under St. Vladimir the Great until the reign of Patriarch Nikon.

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Secondly, please stop telling tales of the Viennese forest about the Turkish old believers. 17 th century- not the 7th, historical evidence has survived many. About this bouquet of liturgies in Russia is not known. In those days, piety was many times higher than the current, even the laity made the service of the daily circle, many knew by heart. People were going to die in a fire in Siberia, to preserve their faith unchanged and many, except for very marginal, kept. At my house, in the 21st century, there are icons from the ancestors of the old believers. And suddenly you say that all but a handful of Turkish immigrants have forgotten about the most important part of the service - the Liturgy? Don't be ridiculous.


I never claimed that.  Indeed, the Russian Orthodox Church remembers its past, which is why Jordanville Seminary, the central seminary of ROCOR, and various Russian Orthodox parishes, routinely serve the Divine Liturgy of St. James and the Presanctified Liturgy of St. James.  The Divine Liturgy of St. Mark remained in use, and remains in use, in the Alexandrian Orthodox Church (which has a Metochion in Moscow).  The sluzhbenik containing these three liturgies along with the liturgy of St. Peter is one of two sources I am aware of that contained the liturgy of St. Peter, the other being the Greek liturgikon found by His Grace Jerome Shaw, a ROCOR bishop.

Now, regarding the rest of your argument, it must be stressed that in addition to burning Old Believers at the stake, the Procurator and the Czars of the late 17th and early 18th century century also burned service books, as many as possible.  And it seems reasonable to assume that, under the influence of Balsamon, these three ancient liturgies had been waning in popularity even before the Nikonian schism.  So the Russian Old Believer community in Turkey in 1960 was probably the last place in the world the Divine Liturgy of St. Peter was still being served (I expect the 17th-18th century Nikonian/procuratorial authorities would have made a special effort to destroy copies of it, both due to Balsamon’s writing and due to the fact the Divine Liturgy of St. Peter uses as its anaphora a modified form of the Roman Canon.

Now regarding your claim that the Old Believers would have remembered all of these liturgies, this only partially holds water.  Those who fled Turkey in the 1960s did remember these liturgies in detail, but it was a small, well educated community; their memory enabled His Grace Bishop Jerome of ROCOR to confirm the Greek liturgikon he found in Mount Athos contained the same contents as the lost Sluzhbenik manuscript.

However, if we go back to the Nikonian schism, we have to consider the following:

1. The Divine Liturgy of St. Mark differs from the Divine Liturgies of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom only in some of the prayers of the Prothesis, the prayers of the Three Antiphons, certain other priestly prayers at the start of the liturgy of the faithful, and in the priestly prayers of the Anaphora.
2. The Divine Liturgy of St. Peter differs from the Divine Liturgies of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom only in terms of some prayers of the prothesis, and in the priestly prayers of the Anaphora.
3. For this reason, many laity might conceivably attend these liturgies without realizing it, since the public prayers of the Anaphora, and the publically audible part of the Synaxis, are virtually identical to those of the Divine Liturgies of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom.
4. In that era, the reading of the quiet priestly prayers aloud was unheard of.  To my knowledge, this was never an Old Believer custom.
5. In contrast, the Divine Liturgy of St. James features a radically different synaxis, and the hymn “Let all mortal fleeh keep silent” instead of the Cherubic hymn.  And this liturgy has remained in continual use in the Orthodox Church, and near-continual use in the Russian Church.
6. The pogroms conducted by the Nikonian party and the Czar against the Old Believers killed a great many of them, including most clergy and virtually all bishops.  Literacy in that period was low, and this probably explains why the priestly prayers in the Old Rite Liturgikon, unlike other, more audible parts of the service, are basically the same as in the Nikonian book - because the originals were mostly lost.  The refugees in Anatolia were a rare exception.  The Old Believers obviously had memorized all of their hymns, basically, the entire Divine Office, and all parts of the Liturgy that occur west of the Iconostasis, but the mass murder of their priests and bishops and the mass destruction of their service books created a scenario where only a tiny minority of Russian Old Rite Orthodox had access to pre-Nikonian Sluzhbeniks.  That being said, the text was recovered, on Mount Athos, in Greek translation, this doubtless representing an earlier form of the Sabaite-Studite Typikon that was propagated to the Russian people with the Baptism of St. Vladimir and the Russians in Kiev.

Now, ultimately, the later Sabaite Typikon presently used in the Russian Orthodox Church emerged as a thing of great beauty, and services conducted using it represent the apex of Orthodox liturgics, particularly at Jordanville, when the incorporation of material from the older tradition occurs, like the Liturgy of St. James, or Znamenny Chant.  His Eminence Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, in addition to being the director of External Church Relations in the Moscow Patriarchate and a brilliant composer, has also worked with the monks of Danilov Monastery to record early Russian liturgical music in Znamenny Chant and other endangered forms.  And these ancient Divine Liturgies are making a comeback in Russia and in ROCOR. 

I believe it is fair to say that whatever ROCOR and the MP do in liturgics right now should be considered with the highest esteem, considering the extreme excellence with which they operate.



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I do not doubt the merits of ROCOR. I on this forum and proved, to peek at anything interesting. I like most interviews and articles with clergymen abroad. But now I mostly see women's fables.

Early fathers raised the dead. Blindly emulate them in external, not internal having is unreasonable.


The use of the phrase “women’s fables” is offensive to the many female members of the forum and particularly offensive to me.  The information I have provided you comes from Fr. Aidan Keller and His Grace Jerome Shaw of ROCOR, as well as the following liturgical textbooks:

(If you doubt anything I have to say, contact HG Jerome Shaw or Fr. Aidan Keller, and/or read these books)

The Arena, by St. Ignatius Brianchaninov

The Eucharistic Liturgies, Essays in Early Eastern Eucharistic Prayers, and Issues in Early Eucharistic Praying, ed. Paul Bradshaw and Maxwell Johnson

The Oxford Handbook of Christian Worship

Liturgical Reform After Vatican II: The Impact on Eastern Orthodoxy

A Brief History of the Byzantine Rite, also, The Divine Office, both by Robert Taft (memory eternal)

The Shape of the Liturgy by Dom Gregory Dix

The Eucharistic Epiklesis, by John C. McKenna

On the Historical Development of the Liturgy, by Anton Baumstark

Prayers of the Eucharist, Early and Reformed

The Blackwell Companion to Eastern Christianity

The Orthodox Church, current edition, by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, also, the Triodion, Festal Menaion and Philokalia, by Metropolitan Kallistos and Mother Mary

The Old Rite Liturgikon, Prayerbook and Horologion published by The Church of the Nativity, a ROCOR Old Rite parish in Pennsylvania

Prayers and Services of the Orthodox Church, by Fr. Seraphim Nasser

The Pentecostarion published by St. John of Kronstadt Press

The Liturgikon of New Skete Monastery

The Unabbreviated Horologion and a Psalter for Prayer, published by Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville

The Liturgikon published by St. Tikhon’s Seminary


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/sorry, I will not edit this translation, I will place the source text under it/


I can’t read Russian.  The rules of OCNet require you to translate, or post in the Foreign Language Forums; please follow them. 


Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2019, 01:48:00 AM »
the oldest manuscript of the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark is the Strasbourg Papyrus, which dates from the second century.

You can link to? Because I have other information.

The most detailed history of the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, the Strasbourg Papyrus, and the related Euchologion of St. Serapion and the Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril is in Essays on Early Eastern Eucharistic Prayers.  This book also has an article that provides the best available histories of the Divine Liturgies of St. James, St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom.

https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=bL15zRnSoPUC&gl=us&source=productsearch&utm_source=HA_Desktop_US&utm_medium=SEM&utm_campaign=PLA&pcampaignid=MKTAD0930BO1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7b75z6_54AIVSh6tBh0wXwz9EAQYASABEgLhSPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


Prayers of the Eucharist, Early and Reformed, has additional information:
https://books.google.com/books?id=0RanQa-mLTwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=eucharistic+prayers+early+and+reformed&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiwnKLlr_ngAhWXop4KHaVsD4AQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=eucharistic%20prayers%20early%20and%20reformed&f=false

I should also clarify, the Didache contains a fragmentary bit of what could be a liturgical text, and it dates from the first century, but we have no idea what the exact purpose of that text was.  Also, some say that the Divine Liturgy of Sts. Addai and Mari, used in the Assyrian Church of the East, is the oldest liturgy in continual use, but this argument rests largely on textual criticism and a comparison of the liturgy with a Jewish Berakot, or meal-blessing. 

One book I forgot to mention that is also worth looking into is the book Prayer and Worship in Eastern Christianities, 5th to 11th centuries.

~

Now, what liturgy did you think was the oldest?

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2019, 01:50:12 AM »
Why should anyone care what Volnutt said? He's just pixels on my monitor. With the same success it is possible to listen to pastafariantsev.

Because Volnutt is one of the most knowledgeable members of the forum.  When it comes to any question of liturgics, the people to talk to are myself, Volnutt, Mor Ephrem, Brigidsboy, Aram, Deacon Lance, Justinian of Narnia, Dominika, and some members who are not active right now.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2019, 01:51:30 AM »
By the way OCNet is going down for Clean Monday in one hour, ten minutes, so I am insanely curious to know which liturgy you think is the oldest before its time for me to log into the server and pull the plug.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2019, 02:55:52 AM »
Why should anyone care what Volnutt said? He's just pixels on my monitor. With the same success it is possible to listen to pastafariantsev.

Because Volnutt is one of the most knowledgeable members of the forum.  When it comes to any question of liturgics, the people to talk to are myself, Volnutt, Mor Ephrem, Brigidsboy, Aram, Deacon Lance, Justinian of Narnia, Dominika, and some members who are not active right now.

BAHAHAHAHAHA-


I'm truly flattered, man, but please don't rank me that high ^^;

My knowledge is a mile wide and an inch deep, as they say. I'm not fit to tie the sandals of anyone else on that list.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 02:56:38 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2019, 02:10:28 AM »
Why should anyone care what Volnutt said? He's just pixels on my monitor. With the same success it is possible to listen to pastafariantsev.

Because Volnutt is one of the most knowledgeable members of the forum.  When it comes to any question of liturgics, the people to talk to are myself, Volnutt, Mor Ephrem, Brigidsboy, Aram, Deacon Lance, Justinian of Narnia, Dominika, and some members who are not active right now.

BAHAHAHAHAHA-


I'm truly flattered, man, but please don't rank me that high ^^;

My knowledge is a mile wide and an inch deep, as they say. I'm not fit to tie the sandals of anyone else on that list.

I'm also flattered, because I am sure we are at parity or close to it in terms of liturgical knowledge.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline isxodnik

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2019, 03:27:44 AM »
I am probably more of a Russophile than any other member of the forum.  I might be more Russophile than you!
Glad to hear. I'm sorry if I caused any unpleasant emotions. Still, I insist that to talk about the" annexation of Georgia by Russia " means to slander Russia. Because it's NOT a neutral term. You made me look up the dictionary. - Nop.

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St. Tikhon of Moscow’s election in 1917 as the first Moscow Patriarch since the 17th century was a huge improvement, but then the Bolsheviks came to power and St. Tikhon died tragically in a Russian prison.
What?!

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If you want to talk about Russophobia, the Imperial Court and the “Holy Synod” in the 18th century are prime examples.
I agree generally. Needless to prove to me that the synodal period is bad.

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I would also argue that Georgia should not have had to tearfully beg Russia for military aid;
But Georgia itself for some reason thought otherwise.

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the Czars could have formed an alliance with Georgia and fought off the Turks without removing the Georgian government or seeking to integrate the Georgian Church into the Russian.  And indeed, starting in the 19th century, Russia frequently did follow such a pattern of behavior internationally.
Yes, pay Russian blood for the interests of others. Good deed!

I see you don't like Patriarch Nikon. He has done many things, and perhaps not all is well with him - as can be indirectly evidenced by the fact that he, for all his scale, is not glorified in the saints. But you know, I was in the New-Jerusalem monastery (built by Patriarch Nikon), and I think that the man who conceived and realized such beauty, can not be quite bad.

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3. For this reason, many laity might conceivably attend these liturgies without realizing it, since the public prayers of the Anaphora, and the publically audible part of the Synaxis, are virtually identical to those of the Divine Liturgies of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom.
You underestimate the meticulousness of believers in Russia. Or overestimate ignorance.

In Byzantium, where Russia received Christianity, to the 9-10-th century remained in the use of the Liturgy of St. Basil and of St. John (+ Liturgy of the Presanctified). These are the Liturgy of the Russian Church and took over. "The Liturgy of Jacob", being a contemporary of the liturgies of St. Basil and St. John, appeared in Russia thanks to Gardner and Rotov in the 20th century.

Talk about the fact that an evil Nikon burned all memory of the Liturgy of James - a lot like a conspiracy theory. "There is no trace, but everyone knows."

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The use of the phrase “women’s fables” is offensive to the many female members of the forum and particularly offensive to me.
Please address your complaints to the Apostle Paul: 1Tim. 4:7:

« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 03:33:40 AM by isxodnik »
"А чего мне бояться? Не в лесу живём, и не в Америке"

Offline isxodnik

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2019, 05:06:11 AM »
The Arena, by St. Ignatius Brianchaninov

The Eucharistic Liturgies, Essays in Early Eastern Eucharistic Prayers, and Issues in Early Eucharistic Praying, ed. Paul Bradshaw and Maxwell Johnson

The Oxford Handbook of Christian Worship

Liturgical Reform After Vatican II: The Impact on Eastern Orthodoxy

A Brief History of the Byzantine Rite, also, The Divine Office, both by Robert Taft (memory eternal)

The Shape of the Liturgy by Dom Gregory Dix

The Eucharistic Epiklesis, by John C. McKenna

On the Historical Development of the Liturgy, by Anton Baumstark

Prayers of the Eucharist, Early and Reformed

The Blackwell Companion to Eastern Christianity

The Orthodox Church, current edition, by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, also, the Triodion, Festal Menaion and Philokalia, by Metropolitan Kallistos and Mother Mary

The Old Rite Liturgikon, Prayerbook and Horologion published by The Church of the Nativity, a ROCOR Old Rite parish in Pennsylvania

Prayers and Services of the Orthodox Church, by Fr. Seraphim Nasser

The Pentecostarion published by St. John of Kronstadt Press

The Liturgikon of New Skete Monastery

The Unabbreviated Horologion and a Psalter for Prayer, published by Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville

The Liturgikon published by St. Tikhon’s Seminary

It's not the first time I've had the impression that you're trying to fill up/overwhelm your interlocutor with words. You might be interested in reading https://ortheos.livejournal.com/1716324.html . (Russian language, but the phrases are short, Yandex should cope.)
"А чего мне бояться? Не в лесу живём, и не в Америке"

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2019, 08:06:04 AM »
I am probably more of a Russophile than any other member of the forum.  I might be more Russophile than you!
Glad to hear. I'm sorry if I caused any unpleasant emotions. Still, I insist that to talk about the" annexation of Georgia by Russia " means to slander Russia. Because it's NOT a neutral term. You made me look up the dictionary. - Nop.


This issue is getting too political, so if you want to discuss it further, we can do so outside of the context of this thread in Politics.

Quote

Quote
St. Tikhon of Moscow’s election in 1917 as the first Moscow Patriarch since the 17th century was a huge improvement, but then the Bolsheviks came to power and St. Tikhon died tragically in a Russian prison.
What?!


Sorry, I was confusing St. Tikhon’s death with another Confessor.  But he was mistreated by the Soviets.

Quote

Quote
If you want to talk about Russophobia, the Imperial Court and the “Holy Synod” in the 18th century are prime examples.
I agree generally. Needless to prove to me that the synodal period is bad.


The proof is in the pudding: compare the architecture of St. Savior’s Cathedral in Moscow or St. Isaac’s in St. Petersburg with pre-Synodal churches, like St. Basil’s, or Orthodox churches in other lands.  And for that matter, compare the piety and devotion of the Edinovertsy and other Old Rite Orthodox, even those not in communion with a canonical church, indeed even some of the priestless Old Believers, with that of everyone else in any Eastern Orthodox Church, with the exception of nuns and monks the of more traditional monasteries like Mount Athos, St. Catharine’s of Sinai, or some of the better Russian monasteries.   The only other Orthodox people who are in my experience as pious and devout, and prepared to stand in church for the same length of time, and endure the same mistreatment for their faith, are the Ethiopians, who also suffered under a communist dictatorship, but were not social outcasts for over 200 years (it wasn’t until Czar Nicholas II that the Old Orthodox began to be treated well in Russian society and began to enjoy equal rights; indeed, the Synodal Church tried to cover up the fact that St. Seraphim of Sarov was an edinovertsy).

Quote

I see you don't like Patriarch Nikon. He has done many things, and perhaps not all is well with him - as can be indirectly evidenced by the fact that he, for all his scale, is not glorified in the saints. But you know, I was in the New-Jerusalem monastery (built by Patriarch Nikon), and I think that the man who conceived and realized such beauty, can not be quite bad.


The beauty was realized by the architects, builders and monastics.  And even if Patriarch Nikon had personally built the monastery brick by brick, it would not have compensated for the massive and horrible schism he caused, and the deaths of so many pious Orthodox Christians.  Although Peter the Great and his immediate successors made the problem a million times worse.

Quote

Quote
3. For this reason, many laity might conceivably attend these liturgies without realizing it, since the public prayers of the Anaphora, and the publically audible part of the Synaxis, are virtually identical to those of the Divine Liturgies of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom.
You underestimate the meticulousness of believers in Russia. Or overestimate ignorance.



There is no way in the 17th century that the average Russian would have access to or be able to commit to memory the prayers said silently by the priest, which is where the variation is in the Liturgies of St. Mark and St. Peter.  The prayers themselves are contained in a sluzhbenik, which at the time existed mainly in manuscript format; thus there were textual variations in different parts of Russia.  And these books were written in Church Slavonic, and at the time, in the 17th century, literacy and knowledge of Church Slavonic would mean that only a minority of the faitnful, maybe 10% at most, knew the content of the Sluzhbeniks.  This was before the modern innovation of priests reading all the silent prayers aloud, but after the late Latin-Byzantine post-Chalcedonian innovation of reading some of them silently (a custom which never fully took root in the Coptic, Syriac and Assyrian churches).

Most of the lay knowledge of the liturgy, then as now, involved knowledge of the Menaion, Triodion, Pentecostarion and Octoechos, the books used to sing the liturgical music.  And here, the Russian people were much more knowledgeable before Nikon, and the Old Believers still are, because they use Znamenny Chant sung congregationally (I suspect the Prostopinije congregational singing of the Rusyns and Lemkos of Carpathia and Ruthenia was at some point derived from Znamenny Chant, since the Rusyns are more likely than not descendants of the Rus people of St. Vladimir).

Quote

In Byzantium, where Russia received Christianity, to the 9-10-th century remained in the use of the Liturgy of St. Basil and of St. John (+ Liturgy of the Presanctified). These are the Liturgy of the Russian Church and took over. "The Liturgy of Jacob", being a contemporary of the liturgies of St. Basil and St. John, appeared in Russia thanks to Gardner and Rotov in the 20th century.


This is inaccurate; even in the Patriarchate of Constantinople the Divine Liturgy of St. James was still in use in the 9th and 10th century.  Indeed, even in that Patriarchate its use never stopped; the only place outside of the Church of Jerusalem where it was continually celebrated without interruption is the island of Zakynthos.  And the Liturgy of St. James remained the main liturgy in the Church of Jerusalem until the 12th century.

Most of the standardization in the Byzantine Rite started happening in the 12th century, like the abolition of the Cathedral Rite, the disuse of the liturgies of St. James, St. Mark and St. Peter, the abolition of the West Syriac liturgical rite in the Patriarchate of Antioch, and other bad things.

Quote

Talk about the fact that an evil Nikon burned all memory of the Liturgy of James - a lot like a conspiracy theory. "There is no trace, but everyone knows."



I never claimed that, in fact, I said the opposite.  This is why the Liturgy of St. James made a comeback, whereas to this degree the Divine Liturgies of St. Mark and St. Peter are obscure, St. Peter especially so (the liturgy of St. Mark is well known among liturgiologists, because the Strasbourg Fragment makes it the oldest attested liturgy, the oldest complete bishop’s euchologion, the Euchologion of St. Serapion, contains a version of it, and it influenced the Egyptian version of the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil (in both Greek and Coptic).  The liturgy of St. James on the other hand is well known in the Orthodox Church; St. Cyril of Jerusalem quotes from it in the Mystagogical Catecheses, the Holy Saturday service quotes it, and so on.

Now, regarding the Church Slavonic translation of Igumen Philip Gardner (you should refer to him by his proper ecclesiastical title; on OCNet it is required to refer to all Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholic Clergy by their proper titles, so Igumen Philip can be called that, or Fr. Gardner, or Igumen Gardner, but not “Gardner”), this translation and the celebration of the Divine Liturgy of St. James became a major custom in ROCOR.  And ROCOR, more than the Moscow Patriarchate, because of its independence from the coercive influence of the Soviet government and the KGB, was the main torchbearer of Russian Orthodoxy in the 20th century.  ROCOR is fiercely conservative and adamantly opposed to innovation; anything they do liturgically should be assumed correct.

 For example, the use of red vestments on Pascha is an MP innovation that happened sometime between the death of Patriarch Tikhon and the reunification of ROCOR and the MP, but ROCOR priests use the traditional white vestments, and this is clearly the more correct and more ancient practice (and it integrated with the related practice of changing the black paraments in the Church to white ones during the Holy Saturday Vesperal Liturgy of St. Basil, a liturgy which in turn features the hymn Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent, which the Byzantine Liturgy of St. James uses instead of the Cherubic Hymn).

Now, I stand by everything I have said concerning the Liturgy in this thread.  If you want more information, I suggest you contact His Grace Jerome Shaw of ROCOR, or a Russian speaking clergyman of ROCOR who could assist you (for example, someone at Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville). 

Actually I think every Russian Orthodox Christian who can get a visa should make a pilgrimage to Jordanville and to the ROCOR cathedral in San Francisco where the relics of St. John Maximovitch are kept.  And there are several good ROCOR monasteries in the US worth a visit, such as Vashon Island in Washington State, and St. Herman’s in Northern California, in addition to several other sites worth seeing in Alaska.  These sites are of extreme historical interest and importance to Russians, because they are where Russian Orthodoxy was preserved in its fullness during the Soviet period, where the Soviet government interfered with catechesis, eavesdropped on the sacrament of confession, and recruited compromised priests and bishops as KGB agents.  The beautiful restoration of Russian Orthodoxy in Russia was certainly aided by ROCOR, even more so now that the Eucharist has been restored.  For that matter, the celebrated Rue Daru community of Russian Orthodox under the EP, which is presently under threat, produced many of the great Russian theologians of the 20th century, such as Fr. George Florovsky, and these theologians in turn founded St. Vladimir’s Seminary, the Seminary of the Metropolia, the other Russian Orthodox descended church in North America, which became the OCA and received a Tomos of Autocephaly from Moscow in 1971 (in return, the MP took over the Church of Japan).  There are also a small number of churches in the US directly under the Moscow Patriarchate.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline isxodnik

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2019, 08:50:16 AM »
There's so much mixed up in your words that my hands are coming down )

I agree generally. Needless to prove to me that the synodal period is bad.
The proof is in the pudding: ...
"Needless to prove to me" means I agree )

Quote
Actually I think every Russian Orthodox Christian who can get a visa should make a pilgrimage to Jordanville and to the ROCOR cathedral in San Francisco where the relics of St. John Maximovitch are kept. ...

There was such a thought, but could not stand the collision with reality )
"А чего мне бояться? Не в лесу живём, и не в Америке"

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2019, 09:00:29 AM »
If that is the Liturgy where you pray and worship.

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2019, 09:11:12 AM »

The Shape of the Liturgy by Dom Gregory Dix



Alpha60 you might be interested to read the Fr. Michael Zheltov believes the Fr. Schmemann was greatly influenced by Dom  Gregory Dix whom you mention.


Quote
After the fall of the Soviet Union Russia and other countries of the former Soviet state experienced a decade of strong spiritual rebirth. Yet the rules of preparation to communion I have just described are still remaining very active. In our days there still are some places where,for example, the Orthodox clergy refuses to administer the Holy communion during the Easter service.
But on a par with this old practice is now very much widespread a different approach based primarily on the works of Alexander Schmemann. Here it is necessary to make a reservation: Schmemann is often considered almost as a prophet. But in fact one can easily discover that his views are highly dependent on those of Gregory Dix, an Anglican scholar, who, in his turn, was an influential theologian, but by no means a pioneer. His work, "The Shape of the Liturgy", was on the one hand, a continuation of the studies of earlier Anglican liturgical scholars associated with the so-called High Church, on the other hand, it was anAnglican response to the developments inside the Roman Catholic "Liturgical Movement".
Therefore, ideas of Schmemann and other representatives of the "Paris School" concerning the Eucharist betray a strong influence of the modern Roman Catholic and partly Anglican thinking on the subject.


http://tar.eucharisztikuskongresszus.com/Eucharisztikus_tudomanyos_konferencia_2018/Eloadasok_szoveg/Michael%20Zheltov_english.pdf.


Offline isxodnik

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2019, 03:51:32 AM »
Alpha60,
I'm thinking about what you said... You're not a Russophile. You love Russia, but not the real, and the existing in your imagination. To the real Russia you are treated with prejudice, not to say arrogance.
Not thank )
"А чего мне бояться? Не в лесу живём, и не в Америке"

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2019, 10:11:46 AM »
Alpha60,
I'm thinking about what you said... You're not a Russophile. You love Russia, but not the real, and the existing in your imagination. To the real Russia you are treated with prejudice, not to say arrogance.
Not thank )

This is not true.  I love Tatra tramcars, trolleybusses, samovars and pelmeni.  I love the appearance of Russia.  And I love the Russian Orthodox, both the Nikonian and Old Believer churches (the Nikonian churches have incredibly beautiful music by composers like Chesnokov and Bortniansky, and Rachmaninoff for that matter, and the hymns of the Obikhod are incredibly beautiful).

I don’t like the Soviet Union or what it stood for.  And when I see something like an icon of Stalin, I weep at the the rembrance of the New Martyrs of Russia, like St. Benjamin of Petrograd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_of_Petrograd

I really suggest you get contact info for a ROCOR representative in Russia or use Skype or Whatsapp to call the Holy Trinity Seminary in Jordanville for information on the liturgy of St. James.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Eamonomae

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2019, 11:57:57 AM »
Alpha60,

Considering there appears to be various manuscripts, what do we know about the "Liturgy of Saint James"?
When was it performed? Who was it performed by? Are there later accretions? Do we know it was performed by the Orthodox Church (Whether Oriental or Eastern, and not by a Gnostic sect. For example, today - while it's not an ideal comparison, because there is no historical continuity, the Gnostic Catholic Church uses a Mass heavily modeled off of the Roman Rite with a Eucharistic Consecration, but it was written up by the Aleister Crowley.)?

There seems to be something rather dangerous in what I would call "liturgical archaeology," where the disciplines of the Church in terms of ritual and praxis are modified to be "like the good ole days," as if contemporary discipline, which is based on Tradition, isn't justified enough in terms of it's development; with the "good ole days" only being a manuscript which, in addition to being somewhat spurious, can be vague and open to interpretation.

I'm more sympathetic (but not there completely) to the Western Rite, but by and large because the Western liturgical tradition exists in the form of the Tridentine Mass and Anglo-Catholic Masses - it developed outside the Church by the heterodox, but it's still a consistent tradition that has been maintained, and consistent on the sole basis that you can compare both the Tridentine Mass with the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom or the Oriental Liturgy of Saint Basil, and find many similarities in text and in the symbolism of the praxis.

But with something "more ancient" like the Liturgy of Saint James, a lot of it is left to the imagination and will NEVER be replicated as to it's original praxis.

My problem is not necessarily the text - which seems Orthodox in content -
and I would have no problem incorporating the text as a valid Liturgy.

My problem is that with all of these factors in mind, it seems somewhat foolish and inorganic to me to change the disciplines of 2000 years worth of Tradition on the basis of a manuscript to such an extent that the Priest faces the opposite direction and has an unnecessary abundance of assistance in the Liturgy, and can be somewhat disrespectful to our Spiritual Ancestors who have preserved and developed this beautiful flower for us to enjoy by saying "we need something new but justified on the basis of Tradition."

The Novus Ordo wasn't justified on the basis of just Ecumenism alone - it's also heavily justified in it's existence on the basis of Ancient Church Praxis.

Having gone to contemporary Catholic Churches, one of the students asked about the Extraordinary Form when the Bishop visited, and the Bishop argued that the Novus Ordo was completely consistent with Tradition on the basis that the description of the Mass by Saint Justin Martyr is applicable to the Novus Ordo, and that the practice of taking Communion in the Hand and drinking the Wine was based on Saint Basil's description of the Mass.

And when I asked a conservative JPII Catholic Priest about the changes to the Novus Ordo, his response was that it was a necessary to change to remove a lot of the unnecessary additions to the Tridentine Mass over the centuries, only keeping what was fundamental and consistent with past praxis, and that it removed a lot of unnecessary superstition in the Mass (like Priests having to repeat parts of the Mass several times in Latin to make sure the Consecration happens) and made it more accessible and less clerical - like the Early Church.

It's in my opinion, a dangerous precedent which can be used to damage the rest of the Liturgical Tradition of the Church on the basis of making it "Ancient but New."

Forgive me if my opinion is invalid, and if I come across as harsh - I still have a lot of TradCat baggage to let go, and I'm a sinner. I'm also still not even a Catechumen, but just wanted to give my opinion, because I consider the Liturgy so important in our world today with the world constantly wanting to get rid of it. They for the most part did in Protestantism and Catholicism.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 12:03:59 PM by Eamonomae »
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- Mark Twain, Letter to Joseph Twichell, 13 September 1898

Offline WPM

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2019, 12:41:50 PM »

Considering there appears to be various manuscripts, what do we know about the "Liturgy of Saint James"?
When was it performed? Who was it performed by? Are there later accretions? Do we know it was performed by the Orthodox Church (Whether Oriental or Eastern, and not by a Gnostic sect. For example, today - while it's not an ideal comparison, because there is no historical continuity, the Gnostic Catholic Church uses a Mass heavily modeled off of the Roman Rite with a Eucharistic Consecration, but it was written up by the Aleister Crowley.)?

Isn't that Eucharistic Consecration? Why or how is that Gnostic? …


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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2019, 12:47:15 PM »
Quote

The use of the phrase “women’s fables” is offensive to the many female members of the forum and particularly offensive to me.  The information I have provided you comes from Fr. Aidan Keller and His Grace Jerome Shaw of ROCOR, as well as the following liturgical textbooks:

(If you doubt anything I have to say, contact HG Jerome Shaw or Fr. Aidan Keller, and/or read these books)

The Arena, by St. Ignatius Brianchaninov

The Eucharistic Liturgies, Essays in Early Eastern Eucharistic Prayers, and Issues in Early Eucharistic Praying, ed. Paul Bradshaw and Maxwell Johnson

The Oxford Handbook of Christian Worship

Liturgical Reform After Vatican II: The Impact on Eastern Orthodoxy

A Brief History of the Byzantine Rite, also, The Divine Office, both by Robert Taft (memory eternal)

The Shape of the Liturgy by Dom Gregory Dix

The Eucharistic Epiklesis, by John C. McKenna

On the Historical Development of the Liturgy, by Anton Baumstark

Prayers of the Eucharist, Early and Reformed

The Blackwell Companion to Eastern Christianity

The Orthodox Church, current edition, by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, also, the Triodion, Festal Menaion and Philokalia, by Metropolitan Kallistos and Mother Mary

The Old Rite Liturgikon, Prayerbook and Horologion published by The Church of the Nativity, a ROCOR Old Rite parish in Pennsylvania

Prayers and Services of the Orthodox Church, by Fr. Seraphim Nasser

The Pentecostarion published by St. John of Kronstadt Press

The Liturgikon of New Skete Monastery

The Unabbreviated Horologion and a Psalter for Prayer, published by Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville

The Liturgikon published by St. Tikhon’s Seminary


I am sure that could be interepreted/translated in the Orthodox-Lutheran dialogue.

Offline Orest

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #66 on: March 13, 2019, 03:04:15 PM »
isxodnik:
Just for you: a clip with a brief explanation of the Liturgy of St. Yakov the Apostle from the St. Petersburg Theological Academy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WC7yAvG8CFM

Божественная литургия апостола Иакова 2018 5 ноября 2018 года / The Divine Liturgy of St. James the Apostle November 5, 2018.

Enjoy.



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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #67 on: March 13, 2019, 03:35:23 PM »

The Arena, by St. Ignatius Brianchaninov

The Eucharistic Liturgies, Essays in Early Eastern Eucharistic Prayers, and Issues in Early Eucharistic Praying, ed. Paul Bradshaw and Maxwell Johnson

The Oxford Handbook of Christian Worship

Liturgical Reform After Vatican II: The Impact on Eastern Orthodoxy

A Brief History of the Byzantine Rite, also, The Divine Office, both by Robert Taft (memory eternal)

The Shape of the Liturgy by Dom Gregory Dix

The Eucharistic Epiklesis, by John C. McKenna

On the Historical Development of the Liturgy, by Anton Baumstark

Prayers of the Eucharist, Early and Reformed

The Blackwell Companion to Eastern Christianity

The Orthodox Church, current edition, by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, also, the Triodion, Festal Menaion and Philokalia, by Metropolitan Kallistos and Mother Mary

The Old Rite Liturgikon, Prayerbook and Horologion published by The Church of the Nativity, a ROCOR Old Rite parish in Pennsylvania

Prayers and Services of the Orthodox Church, by Fr. Seraphim Nasser

The Pentecostarion published by St. John of Kronstadt Press

The Liturgikon of New Skete Monastery

The Unabbreviated Horologion and a Psalter for Prayer, published by Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville

The Liturgikon published by St. Tikhon’s Seminary



I am surprised that you did not cite any of the writings of Fr. Michael  Zheltov, a specialist in this area at the St. Petersburg Theological Academy.  He has published in various languages including English and his works have been cited by English language scholars.

For example this article in English here:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/20474889.pdf


Or perhaps this article in English about the Liturgy of St. Mark: "THE BYZANTINE MANUSCRIPTS OF THE LITURGY OF MARK IN THE SINAI NEW FINDS"
https://doctorantura.academia.edu/MichaelZheltov


Offline Orest

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2019, 03:36:46 PM »



Alpha60 you might be interested to read the Fr. Michael Zheltov believes the Fr. Schmemann was greatly influenced by Dom  Gregory Dix whom you mention.


Quote
After the fall of the Soviet Union Russia and other countries of the former Soviet state experienced a decade of strong spiritual rebirth. Yet the rules of preparation to communion I have just described are still remaining very active. In our days there still are some places where,for example, the Orthodox clergy refuses to administer the Holy communion during the Easter service.
But on a par with this old practice is now very much widespread a different approach based primarily on the works of Alexander Schmemann. Here it is necessary to make a reservation: Schmemann is often considered almost as a prophet. But in fact one can easily discover that his views are highly dependent on those of Gregory Dix, an Anglican scholar, who, in his turn, was an influential theologian, but by no means a pioneer. His work, "The Shape of the Liturgy", was on the one hand, a continuation of the studies of earlier Anglican liturgical scholars associated with the so-called High Church, on the other hand, it was anAnglican response to the developments inside the Roman Catholic "Liturgical Movement".
Therefore, ideas of Schmemann and other representatives of the "Paris School" concerning the Eucharist betray a strong influence of the modern Roman Catholic and partly Anglican thinking on the subject.


http://tar.eucharisztikuskongresszus.com/Eucharisztikus_tudomanyos_konferencia_2018/Eloadasok_szoveg/Michael%20Zheltov_english.pdf.
[/quote]

Great article and in English too.

Offline Eamonomae

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2019, 03:45:04 PM »

Considering there appears to be various manuscripts, what do we know about the "Liturgy of Saint James"?
When was it performed? Who was it performed by? Are there later accretions? Do we know it was performed by the Orthodox Church (Whether Oriental or Eastern, and not by a Gnostic sect. For example, today - while it's not an ideal comparison, because there is no historical continuity, the Gnostic Catholic Church uses a Mass heavily modeled off of the Roman Rite with a Eucharistic Consecration, but it was written up by the Aleister Crowley.)?

Isn't that Eucharistic Consecration? Why or how is that Gnostic? …

The Mass is a parody in a certain sense. The founder, Aleister Crowley, was a man notorious for “learning magic” and using drugs and bisexual sex to achieve his goals and being really antagonistic towards Christianity in general. He called himself “The Beast.”
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 03:45:53 PM by Eamonomae »
"I haven't any right to criticise books, and I don't do it except when I hate them. I often want to criticise Jane Austen, but her books madden me so that I can't conceal my frenzy from the reader; and therefore I have to stop every time I begin. Everytime I read 'Pride and Prejudice' I want to dig her up and beat her over the skull with her own shin-bone."
- Mark Twain, Letter to Joseph Twichell, 13 September 1898

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2019, 06:08:18 PM »
Alpha60,

Considering there appears to be various manuscripts, what do we know about the "Liturgy of Saint James"?
When was it performed? Who was it performed by? Are there later accretions? Do we know it was performed by the Orthodox Church (Whether Oriental or Eastern, and not by a Gnostic sect. For example, today - while it's not an ideal comparison, because there is no historical continuity, the Gnostic Catholic Church uses a Mass heavily modeled off of the Roman Rite with a Eucharistic Consecration, but it was written up by the Aleister Crowley.)?

There seems to be something rather dangerous in what I would call "liturgical archaeology," where the disciplines of the Church in terms of ritual and praxis are modified to be "like the good ole days," as if contemporary discipline, which is based on Tradition, isn't justified enough in terms of it's development; with the "good ole days" only being a manuscript which, in addition to being somewhat spurious, can be vague and open to interpretation.

I'm more sympathetic (but not there completely) to the Western Rite, but by and large because the Western liturgical tradition exists in the form of the Tridentine Mass and Anglo-Catholic Masses - it developed outside the Church by the heterodox, but it's still a consistent tradition that has been maintained, and consistent on the sole basis that you can compare both the Tridentine Mass with the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom or the Oriental Liturgy of Saint Basil, and find many similarities in text and in the symbolism of the praxis.

But with something "more ancient" like the Liturgy of Saint James, a lot of it is left to the imagination and will NEVER be replicated as to it's original praxis.

My problem is not necessarily the text - which seems Orthodox in content -
and I would have no problem incorporating the text as a valid Liturgy.

My problem is that with all of these factors in mind, it seems somewhat foolish and inorganic to me to change the disciplines of 2000 years worth of Tradition on the basis of a manuscript to such an extent that the Priest faces the opposite direction and has an unnecessary abundance of assistance in the Liturgy, and can be somewhat disrespectful to our Spiritual Ancestors who have preserved and developed this beautiful flower for us to enjoy by saying "we need something new but justified on the basis of Tradition."

The Novus Ordo wasn't justified on the basis of just Ecumenism alone - it's also heavily justified in it's existence on the basis of Ancient Church Praxis.

Having gone to contemporary Catholic Churches, one of the students asked about the Extraordinary Form when the Bishop visited, and the Bishop argued that the Novus Ordo was completely consistent with Tradition on the basis that the description of the Mass by Saint Justin Martyr is applicable to the Novus Ordo, and that the practice of taking Communion in the Hand and drinking the Wine was based on Saint Basil's description of the Mass.

And when I asked a conservative JPII Catholic Priest about the changes to the Novus Ordo, his response was that it was a necessary to change to remove a lot of the unnecessary additions to the Tridentine Mass over the centuries, only keeping what was fundamental and consistent with past praxis, and that it removed a lot of unnecessary superstition in the Mass (like Priests having to repeat parts of the Mass several times in Latin to make sure the Consecration happens) and made it more accessible and less clerical - like the Early Church.

It's in my opinion, a dangerous precedent which can be used to damage the rest of the Liturgical Tradition of the Church on the basis of making it "Ancient but New."

Forgive me if my opinion is invalid, and if I come across as harsh - I still have a lot of TradCat baggage to let go, and I'm a sinner. I'm also still not even a Catechumen, but just wanted to give my opinion, because I consider the Liturgy so important in our world today with the world constantly wanting to get rid of it. They for the most part did in Protestantism and Catholicism.

The Liturgy of St James, both Greek and Syriac Recensions, have a continue history of usage in both the Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, & Oriental Catholic Churches.  It is well attested by manuscript tradition.  In the Byzantine Rite it was replaced by the Liturgies of St John Chrysostom and St Basil, but was kept in use once a year by the Patriarchate of Jerusalem on the Sunday after Christmas.  More recently some Churches have again begun celebrating it on the Feast of St James on Oct 23.  Your concerns are unfounded, as this is nothing new just rarely celebrated.  For a Western comparison this would be like the Roman Church celebrating the Mozarabic Mass once a year. 
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2019, 06:31:29 PM »
I'm reading to attend Orthodox Church Liturgy twice a week . . . (Wednesday and Sunday Morning)

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #72 on: March 13, 2019, 06:36:50 PM »
Alpha60,

Considering there appears to be various manuscripts, what do we know about the "Liturgy of Saint James"?
When was it performed? Who was it performed by? Are there later accretions? Do we know it was performed by the Orthodox Church (Whether Oriental or Eastern, and not by a Gnostic sect. For example, today - while it's not an ideal comparison, because there is no historical continuity, the Gnostic Catholic Church uses a Mass heavily modeled off of the Roman Rite with a Eucharistic Consecration, but it was written up by the Aleister Crowley.)?

There seems to be something rather dangerous in what I would call "liturgical archaeology," where the disciplines of the Church in terms of ritual and praxis are modified to be "like the good ole days," as if contemporary discipline, which is based on Tradition, isn't justified enough in terms of it's development; with the "good ole days" only being a manuscript which, in addition to being somewhat spurious, can be vague and open to interpretation.

I'm more sympathetic (but not there completely) to the Western Rite, but by and large because the Western liturgical tradition exists in the form of the Tridentine Mass and Anglo-Catholic Masses - it developed outside the Church by the heterodox, but it's still a consistent tradition that has been maintained, and consistent on the sole basis that you can compare both the Tridentine Mass with the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom or the Oriental Liturgy of Saint Basil, and find many similarities in text and in the symbolism of the praxis.

But with something "more ancient" like the Liturgy of Saint James, a lot of it is left to the imagination and will NEVER be replicated as to it's original praxis.

My problem is not necessarily the text - which seems Orthodox in content -
and I would have no problem incorporating the text as a valid Liturgy.

My problem is that with all of these factors in mind, it seems somewhat foolish and inorganic to me to change the disciplines of 2000 years worth of Tradition on the basis of a manuscript to such an extent that the Priest faces the opposite direction and has an unnecessary abundance of assistance in the Liturgy, and can be somewhat disrespectful to our Spiritual Ancestors who have preserved and developed this beautiful flower for us to enjoy by saying "we need something new but justified on the basis of Tradition."

The Novus Ordo wasn't justified on the basis of just Ecumenism alone - it's also heavily justified in it's existence on the basis of Ancient Church Praxis.

Having gone to contemporary Catholic Churches, one of the students asked about the Extraordinary Form when the Bishop visited, and the Bishop argued that the Novus Ordo was completely consistent with Tradition on the basis that the description of the Mass by Saint Justin Martyr is applicable to the Novus Ordo, and that the practice of taking Communion in the Hand and drinking the Wine was based on Saint Basil's description of the Mass.

And when I asked a conservative JPII Catholic Priest about the changes to the Novus Ordo, his response was that it was a necessary to change to remove a lot of the unnecessary additions to the Tridentine Mass over the centuries, only keeping what was fundamental and consistent with past praxis, and that it removed a lot of unnecessary superstition in the Mass (like Priests having to repeat parts of the Mass several times in Latin to make sure the Consecration happens) and made it more accessible and less clerical - like the Early Church.

It's in my opinion, a dangerous precedent which can be used to damage the rest of the Liturgical Tradition of the Church on the basis of making it "Ancient but New."

Forgive me if my opinion is invalid, and if I come across as harsh - I still have a lot of TradCat baggage to let go, and I'm a sinner. I'm also still not even a Catechumen, but just wanted to give my opinion, because I consider the Liturgy so important in our world today with the world constantly wanting to get rid of it. They for the most part did in Protestantism and Catholicism.

The Liturgy of St James, both Greek and Syriac Recensions, have a continue history of usage in both the Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, & Oriental Catholic Churches.  It is well attested by manuscript tradition.  In the Byzantine Rite it was replaced by the Liturgies of St John Chrysostom and St Basil, but was kept in use once a year by the Patriarchate of Jerusalem on the Sunday after Christmas.  More recently some Churches have again begun celebrating it on the Feast of St James on Oct 23.  Your concerns are unfounded, as this is nothing new just rarely celebrated.  For a Western comparison this would be like the Roman Church celebrating the Mozarabic Mass once a year.

But the Mozarabic, when practiced by Traditionalists, is done in accordance to Tridentine praxis. As is the Sarum Rite.

 The reintroduced Saint James Liturgy, even if a Liturgy of the same name was used in the past by Eastern Orthodox and a Liturgy with the same name by the Oriental Orthodox, doesn’t justify a (honestly) radical change in praxis according to the rubrics of one questionable manuscript (questionable based on what I read here in this thread).

It would be like if I started a Liturgy of Saint Patrick using the Stowe Missal, and I got rid of the candles on the altar.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 06:46:22 PM by Eamonomae »
"I haven't any right to criticise books, and I don't do it except when I hate them. I often want to criticise Jane Austen, but her books madden me so that I can't conceal my frenzy from the reader; and therefore I have to stop every time I begin. Everytime I read 'Pride and Prejudice' I want to dig her up and beat her over the skull with her own shin-bone."
- Mark Twain, Letter to Joseph Twichell, 13 September 1898

Offline isxodnik

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #73 on: March 13, 2019, 08:08:09 PM »
I really suggest you get contact info for a ROCOR representative in Russia or use Skype or Whatsapp to call the Holy Trinity Seminary in Jordanville for information on the liturgy of St. James.

isxodnik:
Just for you: a clip with a brief explanation of the Liturgy of St. Yakov the Apostle from the St. Petersburg Theological Academy:

Thank you, that won't be necessary.
The Liturgy of James arose and developed at about the same time as the liturgies of saints Basil and John, somewhere used more, somewhere less. In Russia appeared in the 20th century thanks to the efforts of questionable moral and religious personalities. For The Russian Church it is superfluous, as Eamonomae rightly said.
"А чего мне бояться? Не в лесу живём, и не в Америке"

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #74 on: March 13, 2019, 09:36:14 PM »
Alpha60,

Considering there appears to be various manuscripts, what do we know about the "Liturgy of Saint James"?
When was it performed? Who was it performed by? Are there later accretions? Do we know it was performed by the Orthodox Church (Whether Oriental or Eastern, and not by a Gnostic sect. For example, today - while it's not an ideal comparison, because there is no historical continuity, the Gnostic Catholic Church uses a Mass heavily modeled off of the Roman Rite with a Eucharistic Consecration, but it was written up by the Aleister Crowley.)?

There seems to be something rather dangerous in what I would call "liturgical archaeology," where the disciplines of the Church in terms of ritual and praxis are modified to be "like the good ole days," as if contemporary discipline, which is based on Tradition, isn't justified enough in terms of it's development; with the "good ole days" only being a manuscript which, in addition to being somewhat spurious, can be vague and open to interpretation.

I'm more sympathetic (but not there completely) to the Western Rite, but by and large because the Western liturgical tradition exists in the form of the Tridentine Mass and Anglo-Catholic Masses - it developed outside the Church by the heterodox, but it's still a consistent tradition that has been maintained, and consistent on the sole basis that you can compare both the Tridentine Mass with the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom or the Oriental Liturgy of Saint Basil, and find many similarities in text and in the symbolism of the praxis.

But with something "more ancient" like the Liturgy of Saint James, a lot of it is left to the imagination and will NEVER be replicated as to it's original praxis.

My problem is not necessarily the text - which seems Orthodox in content -
and I would have no problem incorporating the text as a valid Liturgy.

My problem is that with all of these factors in mind, it seems somewhat foolish and inorganic to me to change the disciplines of 2000 years worth of Tradition on the basis of a manuscript to such an extent that the Priest faces the opposite direction and has an unnecessary abundance of assistance in the Liturgy, and can be somewhat disrespectful to our Spiritual Ancestors who have preserved and developed this beautiful flower for us to enjoy by saying "we need something new but justified on the basis of Tradition."

The Novus Ordo wasn't justified on the basis of just Ecumenism alone - it's also heavily justified in it's existence on the basis of Ancient Church Praxis.

Having gone to contemporary Catholic Churches, one of the students asked about the Extraordinary Form when the Bishop visited, and the Bishop argued that the Novus Ordo was completely consistent with Tradition on the basis that the description of the Mass by Saint Justin Martyr is applicable to the Novus Ordo, and that the practice of taking Communion in the Hand and drinking the Wine was based on Saint Basil's description of the Mass.

And when I asked a conservative JPII Catholic Priest about the changes to the Novus Ordo, his response was that it was a necessary to change to remove a lot of the unnecessary additions to the Tridentine Mass over the centuries, only keeping what was fundamental and consistent with past praxis, and that it removed a lot of unnecessary superstition in the Mass (like Priests having to repeat parts of the Mass several times in Latin to make sure the Consecration happens) and made it more accessible and less clerical - like the Early Church.

It's in my opinion, a dangerous precedent which can be used to damage the rest of the Liturgical Tradition of the Church on the basis of making it "Ancient but New."

Forgive me if my opinion is invalid, and if I come across as harsh - I still have a lot of TradCat baggage to let go, and I'm a sinner. I'm also still not even a Catechumen, but just wanted to give my opinion, because I consider the Liturgy so important in our world today with the world constantly wanting to get rid of it. They for the most part did in Protestantism and Catholicism.

The Liturgy of St James, both Greek and Syriac Recensions, have a continue history of usage in both the Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, & Oriental Catholic Churches.  It is well attested by manuscript tradition.  In the Byzantine Rite it was replaced by the Liturgies of St John Chrysostom and St Basil, but was kept in use once a year by the Patriarchate of Jerusalem on the Sunday after Christmas.  More recently some Churches have again begun celebrating it on the Feast of St James on Oct 23.  Your concerns are unfounded, as this is nothing new just rarely celebrated.  For a Western comparison this would be like the Roman Church celebrating the Mozarabic Mass once a year.

But the Mozarabic, when practiced by Traditionalists, is done in accordance to Tridentine praxis. As is the Sarum Rite.

 The reintroduced Saint James Liturgy, even if a Liturgy of the same name was used in the past by Eastern Orthodox and a Liturgy with the same name by the Oriental Orthodox, doesn’t justify a (honestly) radical change in praxis according to the rubrics of one questionable manuscript (questionable based on what I read here in this thread).

It would be like if I started a Liturgy of Saint Patrick using the Stowe Missal, and I got rid of the candles on the altar.
Not in the past, continuous usage.  Not one manuscript, several.  Again we are talking serving once or twice a year.  Nothing radical about it.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #75 on: March 13, 2019, 09:40:49 PM »
I really suggest you get contact info for a ROCOR representative in Russia or use Skype or Whatsapp to call the Holy Trinity Seminary in Jordanville for information on the liturgy of St. James.

isxodnik:
Just for you: a clip with a brief explanation of the Liturgy of St. Yakov the Apostle from the St. Petersburg Theological Academy:

Thank you, that won't be necessary.
The Liturgy of James arose and developed at about the same time as the liturgies of saints Basil and John, somewhere used more, somewhere less. In Russia appeared in the 20th century thanks to the efforts of questionable moral and religious personalities. For The Russian Church it is superfluous, as Eamonomae rightly said.

So what? Who appointed you the "be moar Russian" cop? If a Russian parish finds it meaningful, then why not let them do it?


In before specious comparisons to liturgical dance...
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 09:41:39 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline isxodnik

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #76 on: March 13, 2019, 09:53:38 PM »
So what? Who appointed you the "be moar Russian" cop? If a Russian parish finds it meaningful, then why not let them do it?

So well. You are replacing the conversation about the place of the Liturgy of Jacob in the Russian liturgical tradition with the conversation about my person. At us in such cases speak:"the drain is set off". You seem to have a "fixed" )
"А чего мне бояться? Не в лесу живём, и не в Америке"

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #77 on: March 14, 2019, 12:08:39 AM »
I really suggest you get contact info for a ROCOR representative in Russia or use Skype or Whatsapp to call the Holy Trinity Seminary in Jordanville for information on the liturgy of St. James.

isxodnik:
Just for you: a clip with a brief explanation of the Liturgy of St. Yakov the Apostle from the St. Petersburg Theological Academy:

Thank you, that won't be necessary.
The Liturgy of James arose and developed at about the same time as the liturgies of saints Basil and John, somewhere used more, somewhere less. In Russia appeared in the 20th century thanks to the efforts of questionable moral and religious personalities. For The Russian Church it is superfluous, as Eamonomae rightly said.

So what? Who appointed you the "be moar Russian" cop? If a Russian parish finds it meaningful, then why not let them do it?


In before specious comparisons to liturgical dance...

+1

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #78 on: March 14, 2019, 12:19:19 AM »
Alpha60,

Considering there appears to be various manuscripts, what do we know about the "Liturgy of Saint James"?
When was it performed? Who was it performed by? Are there later accretions? Do we know it was performed by the Orthodox Church (Whether Oriental or Eastern, and not by a Gnostic sect. For example, today - while it's not an ideal comparison, because there is no historical continuity, the Gnostic Catholic Church uses a Mass heavily modeled off of the Roman Rite with a Eucharistic Consecration, but it was written up by the Aleister Crowley.)?

There seems to be something rather dangerous in what I would call "liturgical archaeology," where the disciplines of the Church in terms of ritual and praxis are modified to be "like the good ole days," as if contemporary discipline, which is based on Tradition, isn't justified enough in terms of it's development; with the "good ole days" only being a manuscript which, in addition to being somewhat spurious, can be vague and open to interpretation.

I'm more sympathetic (but not there completely) to the Western Rite, but by and large because the Western liturgical tradition exists in the form of the Tridentine Mass and Anglo-Catholic Masses - it developed outside the Church by the heterodox, but it's still a consistent tradition that has been maintained, and consistent on the sole basis that you can compare both the Tridentine Mass with the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom or the Oriental Liturgy of Saint Basil, and find many similarities in text and in the symbolism of the praxis.

But with something "more ancient" like the Liturgy of Saint James, a lot of it is left to the imagination and will NEVER be replicated as to it's original praxis.

My problem is not necessarily the text - which seems Orthodox in content -
and I would have no problem incorporating the text as a valid Liturgy.

My problem is that with all of these factors in mind, it seems somewhat foolish and inorganic to me to change the disciplines of 2000 years worth of Tradition on the basis of a manuscript to such an extent that the Priest faces the opposite direction and has an unnecessary abundance of assistance in the Liturgy, and can be somewhat disrespectful to our Spiritual Ancestors who have preserved and developed this beautiful flower for us to enjoy by saying "we need something new but justified on the basis of Tradition."

The Novus Ordo wasn't justified on the basis of just Ecumenism alone - it's also heavily justified in it's existence on the basis of Ancient Church Praxis.

Having gone to contemporary Catholic Churches, one of the students asked about the Extraordinary Form when the Bishop visited, and the Bishop argued that the Novus Ordo was completely consistent with Tradition on the basis that the description of the Mass by Saint Justin Martyr is applicable to the Novus Ordo, and that the practice of taking Communion in the Hand and drinking the Wine was based on Saint Basil's description of the Mass.

And when I asked a conservative JPII Catholic Priest about the changes to the Novus Ordo, his response was that it was a necessary to change to remove a lot of the unnecessary additions to the Tridentine Mass over the centuries, only keeping what was fundamental and consistent with past praxis, and that it removed a lot of unnecessary superstition in the Mass (like Priests having to repeat parts of the Mass several times in Latin to make sure the Consecration happens) and made it more accessible and less clerical - like the Early Church.

It's in my opinion, a dangerous precedent which can be used to damage the rest of the Liturgical Tradition of the Church on the basis of making it "Ancient but New."

Forgive me if my opinion is invalid, and if I come across as harsh - I still have a lot of TradCat baggage to let go, and I'm a sinner. I'm also still not even a Catechumen, but just wanted to give my opinion, because I consider the Liturgy so important in our world today with the world constantly wanting to get rid of it. They for the most part did in Protestantism and Catholicism.

The Liturgy of St James, both Greek and Syriac Recensions, have a continue history of usage in both the Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, & Oriental Catholic Churches.  It is well attested by manuscript tradition.  In the Byzantine Rite it was replaced by the Liturgies of St John Chrysostom and St Basil, but was kept in use once a year by the Patriarchate of Jerusalem on the Sunday after Christmas.  More recently some Churches have again begun celebrating it on the Feast of St James on Oct 23.  Your concerns are unfounded, as this is nothing new just rarely celebrated.  For a Western comparison this would be like the Roman Church celebrating the Mozarabic Mass once a year.

But the Mozarabic, when practiced by Traditionalists, is done in accordance to Tridentine praxis. As is the Sarum Rite.


No, it’s done accordimg to Mozarabic praxis.  The only substantial similarities between the Mozarabic and Tridentine Rite is that both were on occasion celebrated by Pope John Paul II, and both are in Latin (although an English and Spanish translation of a simplified version of this rite was produced by the Episcopalian Church for use in Mexico, which I have).  The survival of the Mozarabic Rite is also far more aritificial than the survival of the liturgy of St. James; whereas the latter, as Deacon Lance stressed, remained in continual use in the Eastern Orthodox Church, indeed, among the Russian Orthodox Old Believers, among other users, the last few Mozarabic parishes switched to the Roman Rite in the late 19th and early 20th century, and the Mozarabic Mass is celebrated daily only in one chapel of the Cathedral of Toledo, and occasionally in a nearby monastery.  And the Sarum Rite is dead; the original Sarum Rite fell into complete disuse in the 16th century and the present Sarum Rite liturgy occasionally used by Anglo Catholics is a 19th century reconstruction.  And there are reasons to believe the reconstructors got several details wrong, for example, the use of blue vestments in Advent.

Quote

 The reintroduced Saint James Liturgy, even if a Liturgy of the same name was used in the past by Eastern Orthodox and a Liturgy with the same name by the Oriental Orthodox, doesn’t justify a (honestly) radical change in praxis according to the rubrics of one questionable manuscript (questionable based on what I read here in this thread).

It would be like if I started a Liturgy of Saint Patrick using the Stowe Missal, and I got rid of the candles on the altar.

No, that would rather be the Sarum Rite.  The Divine Liturgy of St. James was in continuous use and there are multiplr ancient manuscripts, and also several different Sluzhbeniks in addition to that compiled by Hegumen Philip.  For example, Archimandrite Seraphim Lash seraphim composed a modern language English translation of this liturgy based on the best Greek manuscript sources.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #79 on: March 14, 2019, 12:40:20 AM »
I really suggest you get contact info for a ROCOR representative in Russia or use Skype or Whatsapp to call the Holy Trinity Seminary in Jordanville for information on the liturgy of St. James.

isxodnik:
Just for you: a clip with a brief explanation of the Liturgy of St. Yakov the Apostle from the St. Petersburg Theological Academy:

Thank you, that won't be necessary.
The Liturgy of James arose and developed at about the same time as the liturgies of saints Basil and John, somewhere used more, somewhere less. In Russia appeared in the 20th century thanks to the efforts of questionable moral and religious personalities. For The Russian Church it is superfluous, as Eamonomae rightly said.

Calling Fr. Philip of ROCOR a “questionable moral and religious personality” is an ad hominem argument.  He was a pious archimandrite in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, to which St. Tikhon of Moscow transferred autocephaly all decision making authority regarding the affairs of Russian Orthodoxy when it became evident that Metropolitan Vvedensky and the Living Church People and their supporters, such as Metropolitan, later Patriarch Sergius, would be taking over the Russian Orthodox Church.  I am sympathetic to the opinion that ROCOR and the Rue Daru jurisdiction, and to a lesser extent the Metropolia, were the only fully canonical Russian Orthodox Churches until ROCOR reunited with the MP in 2007, which had the effect of legitimizing the MP, due to the complex canonical problem known as “Sergianism” within ROCOR. 

Ultimately, the center of this issue is Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville.  That is where the Divine Liturgy of St. James resumed being celebrated in Church Slavonic in the mainstream Russian Orthodox Church, and that monastery also is where Bishop Jerome Shaw spent some time, and he in turn discovered the Euchologion on Mount Athos which corresponded to the lost Sluzhbenik of the Old Believers in communion with Constantinople, which was seized by the Turks in the 1960s.

And Bishop Jerome Shaw is alive, and doubtless speaks Russian, and you could settle all your concerns by talking to Jordanville.  Because fundamentally, this debate is a ROCOR issue, and any concerns you have about Fr. Philip Gardner or the authenticity of the St. James liturgy can be addressed there.

And by the way, it should be stressed that ROCOR is the most liturgically conservative and traditionalist jurisdiction in the world.  They do not admit innovations.  ROCOR parishes built since ROCOR was organized almost never have pews (but some older Russian Orthodox churches built before ROCOR was founded in the 1920s, which chose to affiliate with ROCOR, do).  ROCOR parishes follow conservative architecture.  The liturgical innovations adopted by Rue Daru, the Diocese of Sourozh under Metropolitan Anthony Bloom in England, and the OCA under Fr. Philip Schmemann and others, under the influence of the Paris School, are rejected by ROCOR.  Indeed many ROCOR hierarchs have been pushing for more Znamenny Chant and less Obikhod, but the parishes tend to be attached to the Obikhod, so this created a tension in which the use of innovative music is unthinkable.   For example, the dreadful Divine Liturgy setting composed by Levine and performed in the Moscow Patriarchate, which is ear splitting.  One would probably have difficulty getting even very high quality recent compositions celebrated in ROCOR, for example, the liturgical music of Roman Hurko.

By the way Deacon Lance, have you heard or worked with Roman Hurko’s music at all?  iIRC he is Ukrainian Greek Catholic; his music is influenced by both Ukrainian and Russian chant like Znamenny, Valaam and “Greek Chant” and also Prostopinije.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Eamonomae

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #80 on: March 14, 2019, 12:46:36 AM »
The Stowe Missal is not the Sarum Rite - the Sarum Rite was an English liturgy used post-schism, and is associated with St. Osmund of Salisbury.

The Stowe Missal is a pre-schism Celtic Missal which includes a Mass - but there are questions surrounding how normative the rubrics were and when the Mass was used - I've heard even some suggestions that it was a Mass used when the Priest wanted to say it in an irregular situation regarding location. Nonetheless, there's a Western Rite Orthodox Church in England which has "reconstructed" the "Liturgy of Saint John the Divine" on the basis of the Stowe Missal, and the rubrics call for no candles.

My problem is not the liturgy itself or the words that are used - it's the praxis. Is there a consistent, uniform praxis among the various manuscripts? Are there some which call for an Ad-Orientem altar, with some that call for the Celebrant to face the people? Do all of them call from 12 Priests to celebrate?

And is it even wise to "restore" Ancient Praxis, especially when it wouldn't actually be "Ancient Praxis", but rather the imagination of the liturgical architect? (Again, I point to the Novus Ordo as an example of "restoring Ancient Praxis" which isn't actually "restoring Ancient Praxis").

In much the same way I would be generally opposed with the idea of using a Liturgy without Candles on the Altar on the basis of one pre-schism manuscript, I am hesitant to an idea of a Liturgy with 12 Priests and the celebrant facing the people.

My concern isn't content, it's rubrics - especially when I don't know if we even know when such rubrics would be used.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 12:49:16 AM by Eamonomae »
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Offline isxodnik

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #81 on: March 14, 2019, 01:00:27 AM »

I am sympathetic to the opinion that ROCOR and the Rue Daru jurisdiction, and to a lesser extent the Metropolia, were the only fully canonical Russian Orthodox Churches until ROCOR reunited with the MP in 2007, which had the effect of legitimizing the MP, due to the complex canonical problem known as “Sergianism” within ROCOR. 

Ultimately, the center of this issue is Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville.  That is where the Divine Liturgy of St. James resumed being celebrated in Church Slavonic in the mainstream Russian Orthodox Church,
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« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 01:03:14 AM by isxodnik »
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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #82 on: March 14, 2019, 02:34:11 AM »
The Stowe Missal is not the Sarum Rite - the Sarum Rite was an English liturgy used post-schism, and is associated with St. Osmund of Salisbury.

The Stowe Missal is a pre-schism Celtic Missal which includes a Mass - but there are questions surrounding how normative the rubrics were and when the Mass was used - I've heard even some suggestions that it was a Mass used when the Priest wanted to say it in an irregular situation regarding location. Nonetheless, there's a Western Rite Orthodox Church in England which has "reconstructed" the "Liturgy of Saint John the Divine" on the basis of the Stowe Missal, and the rubrics call for no candles.


I know what the Stowe Missal is, and I’m not talking about the Stowe Missal

Quote

My problem is not the liturgy itself or the words that are used - it's the praxis. Is there a consistent, uniform praxis among the various manuscripts? Are there some which call for an Ad-Orientem altar, with some that call for the Celebrant to face the people? Do all of them call from 12 Priests to celebrate?

And is it even wise to "restore" Ancient Praxis, especially when it wouldn't actually be "Ancient Praxis", but rather the imagination of the liturgical architect? (Again, I point to the Novus Ordo as an example of "restoring Ancient Praxis" which isn't actually "restoring Ancient Praxis").

In much the same way I would be generally opposed with the idea of using a Liturgy without Candles on the Altar on the basis of one pre-schism manuscript, I am hesitant to an idea of a Liturgy with 12 Priests and the celebrant facing the people.

My concern isn't content, it's rubrics - especially when I don't know if we even know when such rubrics would be used.

None of which applies to the Divine Liturgy of St. James, which we know to have been used continually in the Orthodox Church.

And if you have any concerns, let me remind you the Slavonic use of this liturgy is a ROCOR issue, and you can personally get in touch with His Grace Jerome Shaw or any of the liturgics experts at Holy Trinity Seminary in Jordanville to discuss it.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #83 on: March 14, 2019, 03:43:22 AM »
So what? Who appointed you the "be moar Russian" cop? If a Russian parish finds it meaningful, then why not let them do it?

So well. You are replacing the conversation about the place of the Liturgy of Jacob in the Russian liturgical tradition with the conversation about my person. At us in such cases speak:"the drain is set off". You seem to have a "fixed" )

How is any of that a personal attack, because I dared to use the word "you?"
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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #84 on: March 14, 2019, 10:19:49 AM »
Or the Eastern Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #85 on: March 14, 2019, 10:22:18 AM »

Considering there appears to be various manuscripts, what do we know about the "Liturgy of Saint James"?
When was it performed? Who was it performed by? Are there later accretions? Do we know it was performed by the Orthodox Church (Whether Oriental or Eastern, and not by a Gnostic sect. For example, today - while it's not an ideal comparison, because there is no historical continuity, the Gnostic Catholic Church uses a Mass heavily modeled off of the Roman Rite with a Eucharistic Consecration, but it was written up by the Aleister Crowley.)?

Isn't that Eucharistic Consecration? Why or how is that Gnostic? …

The Mass is a parody in a certain sense. The founder, Aleister Crowley, was a man notorious for “learning magic” and using drugs and bisexual sex to achieve his goals and being really antagonistic towards Christianity in general. He called himself “The Beast.”

Aleister Crowley isn't the founder of the Catholic Mass.

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Re: Saint Jacob (James) Liturgy
« Reply #86 on: March 14, 2019, 10:41:38 AM »
I really suggest you get contact info for a ROCOR representative in Russia or use Skype or Whatsapp to call the Holy Trinity Seminary in Jordanville for information on the liturgy of St. James.

isxodnik:
Just for you: a clip with a brief explanation of the Liturgy of St. Yakov the Apostle from the St. Petersburg Theological Academy:

Thank you, that won't be necessary.
The Liturgy of James arose and developed at about the same time as the liturgies of saints Basil and John, somewhere used more, somewhere less. In Russia appeared in the 20th century thanks to the efforts of questionable moral and religious personalities. For The Russian Church it is superfluous, as Eamonomae rightly said.

Calling Fr. Philip of ROCOR a “questionable moral and religious personality” is an ad hominem argument.  He was a pious archimandrite in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, to which St. Tikhon of Moscow transferred autocephaly all decision making authority regarding the affairs of Russian Orthodoxy when it became evident that Metropolitan Vvedensky and the Living Church People and their supporters, such as Metropolitan, later Patriarch Sergius, would be taking over the Russian Orthodox Church.  I am sympathetic to the opinion that ROCOR and the Rue Daru jurisdiction, and to a lesser extent the Metropolia, were the only fully canonical Russian Orthodox Churches until ROCOR reunited with the MP in 2007, which had the effect of legitimizing the MP, due to the complex canonical problem known as “Sergianism” within ROCOR. 

Ultimately, the center of this issue is Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville.  That is where the Divine Liturgy of St. James resumed being celebrated in Church Slavonic in the mainstream Russian Orthodox Church, and that monastery also is where Bishop Jerome Shaw spent some time, and he in turn discovered the Euchologion on Mount Athos which corresponded to the lost Sluzhbenik of the Old Believers in communion with Constantinople, which was seized by the Turks in the 1960s.

And Bishop Jerome Shaw is alive, and doubtless speaks Russian, and you could settle all your concerns by talking to Jordanville.  Because fundamentally, this debate is a ROCOR issue, and any concerns you have about Fr. Philip Gardner or the authenticity of the St. James liturgy can be addressed there.

And by the way, it should be stressed that ROCOR is the most liturgically conservative and traditionalist jurisdiction in the world.  They do not admit innovations.  ROCOR parishes built since ROCOR was organized almost never have pews (but some older Russian Orthodox churches built before ROCOR was founded in the 1920s, which chose to affiliate with ROCOR, do).  ROCOR parishes follow conservative architecture.  The liturgical innovations adopted by Rue Daru, the Diocese of Sourozh under Metropolitan Anthony Bloom in England, and the OCA under Fr. Philip Schmemann and others, under the influence of the Paris School, are rejected by ROCOR.  Indeed many ROCOR hierarchs have been pushing for more Znamenny Chant and less Obikhod, but the parishes tend to be attached to the Obikhod, so this created a tension in which the use of innovative music is unthinkable.   For example, the dreadful Divine Liturgy setting composed by Levine and performed in the Moscow Patriarchate, which is ear splitting.  One would probably have difficulty getting even very high quality recent compositions celebrated in ROCOR, for example, the liturgical music of Roman Hurko.

By the way Deacon Lance, have you heard or worked with Roman Hurko’s music at all?  iIRC he is Ukrainian Greek Catholic; his music is influenced by both Ukrainian and Russian chant like Znamenny, Valaam and “Greek Chant” and also Prostopinije.

Maybe the Orthodoxy should come to the Granbury Area and investigate.